2hbh advice?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by StringSnapper, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    What are the main things you think about hitting a 2hbh?

    Do you have your domjnant hand in a continental grip, and non dominant in a sw or western grip?
    Quick unit turn?
    Keeping the arm straight?
    Keeping the wrist locked through contact?
    Rotational push and force off the back leg?
     
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  2. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Professional

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    Quick unit turn - Topspin - Hip action.
     
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  3. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

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    Keeping my focus on the point of contact; less shanking!
     
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  4. Curious

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    Switching to 2hbh?
     
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  5. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Yeah im gonna practice the next few weeks on the wall to see if i can get it to a good standard. Seems to hold up better under pressure, the 1hander has been failing me again and im just slicing everything
     
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  6. Curious

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    I tried it only a few times but it was the weirdest feeling shot in tennis.
     
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  7. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Yeah it feels so alien. Like short with no reach... but damn could Nalbandian hit a 2hbh. I think its just reps, since its more like a forehand on the opposite side. So... it should feel weird
     
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  8. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Professional

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    don't start out 2hbh with the wall, its super awkward :) .
     
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  9. Nellie

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    Personally, I like a Bh-side dominant hand. Really, the dominant hand is not important, but what you want is to rotate the hips into the stroke (I like to feel like I am punching an upper cut with my bh fist). People switching from a 1hbh tend to be stiff in the hips and swing the 2hbh using arms only without the hip rotation. I find that learning to use the bh arm (like a back-side forehand) encourages the hips. I like to practice BH strokes holding the handle with my BH-side hand and only my forehand thumb and index finger (so hanging the last three fingers off the handle).
     
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  10. Friedman Whip

    Friedman Whip Semi-Pro

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    Disagree. Use the wall. I think it's the best place to develop new shots that require different grips stances & swings. I now have a decent 2hBH after 40 years of nothing but 1hBH. And yes it's going to feel awkward for a while. It ain't a 30 minute fix.
     
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  11. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Professional

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    I am just saying its must easier at first to have someone feed you the ball. Self feeding with 2hbh kinda sucks.
     
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  12. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

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    So toss the ball higher! :)
     
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  13. richardc-s

    richardc-s Semi-Pro

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    That's exactly how I learnt :D

    I had been a 1 handed since forever and decided to make the switch to 2 hands a month or so ago. I spent about 3 hours drop feeding myself to get a feel of the shot before I tried it with another person in a rally.

    Granted drop feeds are not the same as when a ball is coming towards you, but it certainly helps get the initial shape working.
     
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  14. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Professional

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    When you are hitting at the wall, the ball comes back much faster, so i feel its awkward.
     
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  15. Friedman Whip

    Friedman Whip Semi-Pro

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    I understand what you're saying. It is tough at first.
     
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  16. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Thats part of the reason in switching actually, i think i don't engage my hip rotation on the bh side so my hips have been sore (overly strong on the fh and serve side, weak on the other side) but the 2hander forces you to swing from the hip cos its like a fh
     
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  17. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Nice howd you groove it out? Im willing to put in some work for this. Im thinking a regime on the wall something like:

    10 mins hitting 2hbhs to get a feel; just working on timing depth and feel

    10 minutes of hitting right handed fhs (im a lefty) while choked up on the grip like a 2hbh. I heard this helps the 2hander?

    10 mins alternating between fh and bh to get a feel for the grip change


    Maybe call that a session, and do it 2 or 3 times a week. What do you think?
     
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  18. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Nice. Fellow lefty! Yeah we have an advantage cos our fh goes to their bh but it works both ways since their fh comes to our bh too. Thanks for sharing. Hopefully i can do this but with the wall so i dobt have to pick up balls, but ill do it with drop feeds if the wall does truly suck for this.
     
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  19. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Yeah initially but i think eventually ill be able to place the ball so it comes vack to the same spot making it easier that way
     
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  20. OnTheLine

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    For my 2HBH (I use 1H for slice) I must focus on letting the ball drop down to hip level ... I too often want to take it too high which sacrifices control and topspin.
     
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  21. FiReFTW

    FiReFTW Hall of Fame

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    Tell me about it, i tried it for fun too and it was super akward.

    My left hand is quite akward and uncoordinated compared to my right one, I think people like this find the 1hb more natural, while people who have a very similar left hand to their right one or even ambidextrious people find the 2hb much more natural, of course some other things also come into play.
    This is my theory anyway.
     
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  22. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

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    So stand further away! ;)
     
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  23. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Legend

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    It really depends on the player. If the player already has pretty good directional control, he can start out on the wall. But if the player’s directional control is not good, the wall can be quite challenging as the exercise could become one of fitness chasing the ball all over the place trying to track down their sprayed balls. :D
     
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  24. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Had a hit yesterday, already felt a bit more natural. Especially at the start. My focus was on a straight arm takeback along with getting the racquet to drop below the ball before contact (this was a key on some yt videos and pros slowmo). It reminded me of the 'one inch punch'... get racquet below ball, then push from the hips up into the ball. A pretty short movement compared to the spaghetti arm flinging forehand.

    My core got tired pretty quick, really not used to rotating that way, and when it got tired i started shanking lots. It seemed like a LOT of core engagement was needed to get a good solid shot off. Is this normal for the 2hander? It just always requires a lot of rotation?

    On my forehand i seem to be able to calibrate different shots, or even just hit a semi decent shot using mostly arm.

    On the plus side it seems like i can reliably use the buggy whip forehand now. Also if i get the rotation and timing down the 2hbh is a pretty powerful shot, really penetrates through the court.
     
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  25. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Legend

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    Yes.
     
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  26. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Professional

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    If i can hit the ball deep with 2HBH already, why use the wall ;)
     
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  27. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Legend

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    :D :D :D
     
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  28. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Legend

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    @StringSnapper

    Think about it this way. If you normally don’t do any running, the first time you run a mile, you will get tired very quickly. You’ve never hit 2hbh before so your muscles haven’t had to perform this motion before. Plus it’s a new motion for you so it’s not fluid yet either.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  29. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Yeah thanks i was thinking that.
    I like it so far anyway, seems like it should be easy to get a solid topspin shot on my bh side now.

    Some balls are already easier to handle (like a high ball near the net). I think my next step will be trying to master the feel of cc vs dtl (the wall is mostly good for dtl which doesnt bother me cos my bh dtl goes to my opponents bh), plus also the grip for the serve return. I think im leaning towards the djokovic solution here... have my forehand grip set up but then my off hand is in the ready grip for the 2hbh fh (i.e. both hands on the handle and both in semi westerb grips)
     
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  30. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Great article by our man @JohnYandell (another epic article from you, thanks mate!!):

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/public..._complex/Copy of 2hd_bh_simplest_complex.html

    some notes:

    - perhaps the 2hbh isn't a just left handed forehand (or this isnt the best or most commonly used option, at least by ATP level men). this "left handed forehand" is characterised by both elbows being bent, and usually requires the player to be ambidextrous. it is uncommon among men.
    - the most commonly used ATP 2hbh grip (also used by Nalbandian which i personally considered to have the best 2hander) is a bent front arm and straight back arm, at contact (the take back can be two straight arms, its at contact what matters). it usually has an eastern backhand grip with the dominant front arm, the back shoulder is higher than the front shoulder at contact,


    Very interesting idea here:
    "how do you decide which one is right for you? Try this test. Using a ball machine, or an easy feed from the pro, experiment with hitting a one-handed backhand. Then do the same with a left handed forehand. For both tests, start in the turn position with your shoulders sideways and the racket already back. Set up the hitting arm. For the one-hander that means keeping the right hitting arm as straight as possible. For the left handed forehand, this means elbow bent, wrist laid back. Don't try to hit hard, just concentrate on the form. It's OK to hit a looping, semi-moon ball--just feel what the motion is like. Hit a few dozen balls one way, then the other. Go back and forth and see which feels more natural."

    For me coming from a 1-hander, it seems obvious the bent front arm with a straight back arm seems like the go-to...
     
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  31. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    I just tried some shadow swings using this concept. Had an interesting feeling, like the front arm was kind of guiding the shot (almost pulling the racquet through, or atleast initiating the pull to be bent) and the back straight arm kinda just plows through. Maybe easier power without the need for as much body rotation effort. Hmm will have to test against the wall and in a match. For now this will be my template anyway... the Nalbandian backhand awaits me!!
     
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  32. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Just know ... you are looking at a major project to switch to 2hbh in match play. If you are playing matches you want to win, you won't hit the 2hbh for a long time. I kept reverting back to my low UE 1hbh slice in matches ... because turns out I prefer to win even in casual matches. The return of serve is a particularly difficult transition, because no good way to practice that by yourself. When I would show up for my 2-3 singles matches a week, a good competitive match was something we both looked forward to. When I went from never miss 1hbh block/slice ros to littering up the ros ue, it wasn't fun for either one of us. Even worse with doubles ... three other guys on the court.

    Also ... your 1hbh looked like a good stroke.

    That disclaimer ... 2hbhs :D:

    - Yandell's article is great, that is what I used early for a starting point. To me, it was priceless to see the arm/grip options BEFORE 1000s of reps. Pick one ... stick with it during initial learning curve. I tried straight/straight cont/e and epic fail. Quickly (if you call 2 weeks quick) changed to bent/straight cont/e ... and glad I did. Perfect for me ... plus I hit 1hbh slice, bh volley, bh dropshot with same cont grip.

    - I did not have any new core muscle soreness ... and I hit about 10,000 2hbh with ball machine in that first 4 months. I did hose my right big toe ... you seem to have more rotational torque around front foot than with 1hbh. On hip rotation ... watch closed/neutral stance pro 2hbhs when they weight shift to front leg. It's a hip rotation around the lead leg. I don't see any hip rotation before landing on front leg. So to me, if you have hip firing/rotation on a weight-shift-to-front-foot 2hbh, that hip firing happens from front leg after landing. I seem to be on my own here :cool: with that view. If I can find my previous post on this, I will include it at the bottom of this post.

    - full shoulder turn + relaxed ... or don't pass go

    - $ is made from slot forward ... many backswing variations work to get you there. I recommend at least trying a Djokovic-height backswing and drop early to see if it works for you. I think a short drop is a helpful timing component (rec player timing insurance). If my backswing is back and up by bounce, all I have left is drop and swing. Compare that to Radwanska at the bounce. She has the timing to go back and forward after the bounce ... seems to be asking too much of a rec player. Venus is an interesting variation on the straight to the slot 2hbh. She gets down there immediately ... often long before the bounce. It looks pretty ugly imo, but she is seldom rushed. What I have learned on the "being ready ... don't get rushed" front, is at least have MOST of your backswing done by the bounce (rough guide ... varies on slow balls, etc). I think you can have 2/3 - 3/4 of your backswing (shoulder turn) completed by bounce, and complete the remainder of the backswing going into your forward swing without issue ... particularly at rec player pace. Just check Goffin hitting his FH in slow motion video. He gets 3/4 very early .... holds ... and then ratchets a bit more backswing/shoulder turn as he completes his stroke.

    - On the left vs right arm percentage thing, I think we dwell on it too much. Here is one of the first things I would have someone do if I was trying to give them an early concept of the 2hbh (this based on the pain of my learning curve ... taking until the 3+ week before I had that OH!!! you need to hit the sucker with your frickin Left (non-dom) arm/hand. :mad:

    Do THIS:
    - hold your racquet with your 2hbh grips
    - extend both arms straight in front of you at shoulder height
    - rotate shoulders/core left and right, and feel the weight of the arm triangle
    - now do a weight transfer to front foot, and time the rotation of the arm triangle (with both arms remaining straight) and feel the momentum (rhs) of the arm triangle increase as it gets near contact point. Some effort at first, and then that weight is working in your favor by contact.

    To me, that is the basic core of the 2hbh that we all hit. We will vary by how/when we bend our arms, how/when we start adding non-dom arm ADDER to the arm triangle swing, the backswing ... how we get there ... feels like arm first or shoulder turn ... yada yada yada. What I found was I had the ah ha moment when I started getting after it with the left arm/hand from the slot forward. I had a false notion of my right arm doing most of the work because I was coming from the 1hbh. No doubt Agassi uses his arms (adds left hand) at a different timing point than a bent/straight, but to this day I believe Agassi is hitting the hockey out of it with his left arm/hand at contact.

    Reach... the Agassi straight/straight will get you close to 1hbh reach. From there, you progressively lose reach ... the shortest being a bent/bent type 2hbh like Venus. Bent/straight is actually "close enough" to straight/straight for the added stability gain (IMO). The straight non-dom arm at contact retains most of the reach. But from bent/straight to bent/bent ... bigtime loss of reach. [This all based on a highly scientific BBP lab experiment in my sunroom with red brick grout lines and reaching for the wall from 1hbh and 2hbh closed stances :cool:].

    I found my post regarding 2hbh timing and hips. I still have an open mind about hips, but my conclusion on the 2hbh (all strokes really) is when someone says "you need to fire more hips", that need more information. For one, there isn't on hip... there are two. If I hit a open stance FH off back leg with the front (left) leg off the ground, there is not left hip that can fire (it's off the ground). So on a open FH, I am firing the back(right) hip if I'm firing any hip at all. And in my open FH, yes I feel the hip action. I say action, but here also is an interesting consideration. I know when I hit a FH off the back leg, my upper body is rotating around that right hip joint (body rotates around hip joint and the shoulders rotate around core ... two main rotation points imo). But is that the same as firing a hip muscle? I don't know. I know I step up with the back leg... and I rotate around the right hip joint and my shoulders rotate around the core (or maybe core and hip rotation is the same ... and the shoulders are rotating around hip joint ... who knows). My point is when we say "fire the hips" I never know exactly what someone means. I can shadow swing with just hips, keeping shoulders in line with the hip line ... and it's not vary powerful. Just bring it up ... because be careful with dwelling on the hips. Yandell actually posted here once he knew a vary high level rec tournament player screw his game up going off on the "hip thing". I continue to think if you take athletic stances (appropriately stance for the stroke ... open vs closed, fh vs bh, etc) with good shoulder turn and hip turn where appropriate, the uncoiling will take care of itself.

    https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-on-two-handed-backhand.601480/#post-11695623
     
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  33. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    @ByeByePoly how long ago did you make the transition?


    Haha yeah my 1hbh is ok on hard court but i mostly play grass now. It basically breaks down with pace or timing problems. We currently have a break in league seasons for a month or two, so i plan to just practice it now without regard to winning or losing. I want to progress my ranking and i feel like my bh is my weakest link atm, so i dont mind taking one step back to go two steps forward.

    Yeah my slice is decent too, but its still just a slice. I played against an old social player the other day and he had no trouble returnibg my slice.. thats sad, man. I should be convincingly winning such a match. half the court was a safe haven for him. What a wakeup call lol. He probably had more skill that me. He too only had a slice bh, but he had better placement. I only won because of my young legs running everything down (his best shot was the drop shot)

    To me "fire from the hips" means through the back hip. Both feet can be off the ground to do it even.. just think of the loose spaghetti arm forehand flailing through. It is a different feeling slightly neutral vs open stance, i think open requires more fire



    Ill try remember to video my next wall hit and post it for tips
     
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  34. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Transition still in progress. I started in summer 2015 ... countless ball machine reps, and I hit it in all practice hits with friends. This last summer should have been my final conversion, but I played almost exclusively singles and I reverted to what wins (1hbh slice). Stupid really ... why work on something that hard and then bag it in matches. I had started using it more in singles matches at the end of the summer last year, and liked what I was seeing. Then a calf injury, and then the hamstring ... and that was the end of that. Singles unlikely for the foreseeable future (2nd hamstring injury ... other leg) so I expect more doubles. I don't care as much about winning in doubles, so good time to commit to 2hbh, particularly return of serve.

    Slices come back ;)

    I would think slice would be great on grass. I was at the park once hitting 2hbhs, and someone asked why I wanted to switch to 2hbh. My reply was "always wanted a good cc ts bh". He thought about it and then asked "why not just work on adding ts on the 1hbh". Ouch ... stung a little. :p Truth is it's now my favorite stroke to hit. I have yet to tire of hitting 2hbhs with ball machine 1000s of balls later. Good thing ... with these hamstrings that is what is left.
     
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  35. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    Among pros, high level college players and high level juniors, there are infinite variations in grips and arm positions used to hit 2hb's. What they have in common is that they swing with a dominant left hand, in effect, a left handed forehand (assuming the player is a righty). I have found that if you focus on hitting a left handed forehand all of the other variables tend to fall into place and you will experience the best results.

    Note how these players drive through contact with their left hands:







     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  36. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Did you see Johns article?
    https://www.tennisplayer.net/public..._complex/Copy of 2hd_bh_simplest_complex.html

    Either way i agree it feels more like a forehand (than a 1hander anyway) because of the amount of hip rotation added to the stroke
     
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  37. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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  38. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Okay had a hit on the wall. What do you guys think? Its probably only my 3rd time using a 2hander



    Some notes from the hit:
    (Im a lefty)
    Left hand eastern bh grip
    Right hand eastern fh grip

    Left hand responsible for getting racquet into slot position underneath the ball

    Right hand responsible for keeping racquet face slightly closed through contact and generating power with straight arm

    If ball goes long/high, right hand didnt keep racquet face closed
    If ball hits net or goes into the ground, left hand didn't get the racquet low enough underneath the ball in slot position

    Hold racquet as low down on the handle as possible with both hands. Effortless power. Dont have to swing as hard. Better timing. Greater power potential. Better reach.

    --------

    Interestingly watching the video it doesn't look like i get the racquet below the ball much, and my shots are quite flat.

    Also I didn't figure out to hold the racquet lower down on the grip until after i took the video.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  39. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Totally agree they drive with the left hand.

    Totally disagree it's like a lh fh.

    50% agreement ... that ain't nothin. ;)
     
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  40. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    That’s fine, as long as you are content to have a bh that is 50% as good as it could be. :cool:
     
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  41. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Actually very impressed that you can do that from the start. Let me put it this way ... that wall would not have been tall enough for my first month. :eek: I actually cleared the back fence several times in the first two weeks (glimpse of future massive power :D).

    JMO ... but I would not think about the grips as two different grips and functions. I think of the two hands making up one grip. The two hands and arms are stuck with each other ... takes two to tango. That is why it's not a lf fh (rh in your case).

    Your dom hand (left) grip sets the racquet angle. If you are having to fight that angle with your right hand, you need to change your lh grip.

    There are two low to high (below the ball) possible components in the 2hbh. 1) swing plane 2)racquet angle from hand ... racquet head drop (check Nishikori from slot). IMO, I would make sure you are doing #1 from the start, and worry about #2 later (if ever). You can hit a great 2hbh with never doing a lot of the rh drop, but it's a big adder for spin. I am just now experimenting with bigger rh drop and very loose wrists at contact ... nice spin.
     
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  42. ParrotOnStrings

    ParrotOnStrings New User

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    the videos on the net are nice, but you don't see exactly how to behave, when to do what and how. I learned that beside the hips, the wrists are pretty important in getting topspin on 2HB. the whole thing felt weird until I got relaxed and really let the arms follow the hips, and not the other way. topspin is just wrist "brushing" like my trainer said. your wrists (both) turn almost completely during the hit.
     
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  43. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    :D

    Use the off hand fh as an early drill or analogy if needed to get non-dom arm/hand involved ... but if you don't use two arms and hands in a two arm stroke just go learn a non-dom fh. Then you would actually have a fh on each wing. :D
     
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  44. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Closed/neutral stance 2hbhs (weight shift to front leg)

    Note: also open 2hbhs off back leg like FHs ... not talking about them.

    Sequence:

    1) shoulder and both hips coil (backswing/prep)
    2) step forward with dom leg ... no hip firing during step, no shoulder uncoiling during step
    3) at dom/front leg landing ... weight comes off non-dom leg (not possible for non-dom hip to fire anything). After dom leg/foot plant, drop if any+uncoiling around dom hip+shoulder turn uncoiling.

    So if you have any hip firing, or hips leading shoulder turn/arms ... it is happening at/around front/dom hip. I have used shadow swings to test how much hip firing I can do over the dom hip. It's not norhing, but it also isn't that much. I came to the conclusion the majority of the 2hbh rhs does not come from any hip firing. I think it comes from the correct timing of:

    1) momentum from weight transfer
    2) uncoiling full shoulder and dom hip turns over dom hip ... some dom hip firing assist
    3) major momentum from swinging 18-20lb arm/racquet triangle.

    When I watch pro 2hbh video (Murray below), I see the dom hip rotation and shoulder turn uncoiling start at the same time (no hips first). See if you guys see something different in this Murray vudeo.)

     
    #44
  45. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
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    Not exactly. The primary role of the right hand is to aid in eye hand coordination.
     
    #45
  46. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    Messages:
    7,665
    My primary role of my right hand is about to be to put you on ignore. :D

    How do I put you on 2hbh only ignore? ;)
     
    #46
  47. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
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    You, can't handle the truth!
     
    #47
  48. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Fake truth ... truth but verify ... I ran it through that internet video thingy and the truth came out wanting.
     
    #48
  49. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
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    Resort to the words "fake truth," is proof that you can't handle the truth.
     
    ByeByePoly likes this.
    #49
  50. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    8,693
    1. split (at or shortly after contact)
    2. first step... big steps to anticipated contact area
    3. adjust adjust adust....
    4. plant back foot to load/unit turn - chin on lead shoulder/make sure tip is more 30 degree (vs. tip up)
    5. swing to contact... drive off foot, drop hand & racquet head below contact, core/right arm pulls racquet - starts forward motion, complete swing to contact with left,
    6. eyes on contact, eyes on contact, eyes on contact before, during, after contact
    7. follow through and extend (with left) to target
    8. allow momentum to carry hands over my shoulder
    9. recovery step (now i can look up to see where it went! hopefully somewhere close to the region i was intending)
    10. recover back to middle of probably return angle
    <rinse and repeat>
     
    #50

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