2hbh detail... open face on backswing?

Slowtwitcher

Hall of Fame
I've tried it because of Agassi's takeback. But for some reason it cause open face at contact too and too flat of a shot. Now I just take racquet back and don't worry too much about the face angle.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I've tried it because of Agassi's takeback. But for some reason it cause open face at contact too and too flat of a shot. Now I just take racquet back and don't worry too much about the face angle.
To me ... anything forced, including rf angle in backswing works against us. We are supposed to be relaxed. When I tried to force a square/closed backswing, I was overriding what my arms wanted to do naturally. Probably would have ended up relaxed muscle memory if I stuck with it, but I couldn't come up with a good reason to change.

That's not the hardest part of Agassi's 2hbh to time imo ... it's both arms being straight at contact. I started with that as the goal, but found left arm straight and right arm bent easier to time, and more importantly control (accuracy). I did find max power/pace with straight/straight, a little drop off with bent/straight, and a lot of drop off with pace and reach with bent/bent.

You just made me check out Agassi 2hbh ... interestingly he seems to introduce open rf right as he drops the rh behind him going into lag (waggle ... nyta will probably remember me referring to 2hbh waggle 8-B ).

 

nyta2

Professional
...get away with it....
your wording connotes that you think it's "wrong" somehow... which is how i used to think
but what i'm saying is at least one high level specifically teaches it this way
I only looked at the first bh In the video, but judging from that, regarding your golf swing comparison, you are of course comparing a topspin groundstroke, with a backspin golf shot. The more vertical plane of the golf swing naturally results in a more open clubface as well.
this has nothing to do with topspin or backspin... (a club face is angled to promote backswing, but both racquet and golf club need to be "square" at contact
the core concept is the forearm rotation part (which to me is more pronounced when the racquet face is open on the backswing)
IMO, and from experimenting, opening the face on the 2hbh backswing rotates the forearm "away" from contact more, giving you more "runway" to rotate the forearms into contact for more racquet head speed (but previously i presumed that any gains in rhs would be offset by being more inconsistent...
and presumed that only elite athletes like hewitt had the talent to pull it off... so a no-talent-bum like me should stay away from it.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
your wording connotes that you think it's "wrong" somehow... which is how i used to think
but what i'm saying is at least one high level specifically teaches it this way

this has nothing to do with topspin or backspin... (a club face is angled to promote backswing, but both racquet and golf club need to be "square" at contact
the core concept is the forearm rotation part (which to me is more pronounced when the racquet face is open on the backswing)
IMO, and from experimenting, opening the face on the 2hbh backswing rotates the forearm "away" from contact more, giving you more "runway" to rotate the forearms into contact for more racquet head speed (but previously i presumed that any gains in rhs would be offset by being more inconsistent...
and presumed that only elite athletes like hewitt had the talent to pull it off... so a no-talent-bum like me should stay away from it.
Interesting that you are thinking arm rotation adds to rhs ... I've always thought that about the flip fh. Now I have started to question that in my mind. I now wonder if arm rotation on flip is only adding to topspin (more rh drop and more ww ???). If arm roll adds rh propeller, and any release of wrist extension adds 2nd lever release (nunchucks) ... is it only the lever release that adds to rhs? Note: if nunchucks also has a rotation element ... than I need a different analogy. 8-B

I've asked that here on ttw several times ... no bites ... I thought it would it would definitely be @Dragy catnip.

To me ... the main elements of 2hbh pace ... in this order were 1) shoulder turn 2) left arm extending straight into contact 3) lag/waggle with very relaxed hands/wrist. That said ... only hit from open backswing, so nothing to compare to other than a frustrating 30 minutes with ball machine trying to stay square/closed in 2hbh backswing.
 

Dragy

Legend
Interesting that you are thinking arm rotation adds to rhs ... I've always thought that about the flip fh. Now I have started to question that in my mind. I now wonder if arm rotation on flip is only adding to topspin (more rh drop and more ww ???). If arm roll adds rh propeller, and any release of wrist extension adds 2nd lever release (nunchucks) ... is it only the lever release that adds to rhs? Note: if nunchucks also has a rotation element ... than I need a different analogy. 8-B

I've asked that here on ttw several times ... no bites ... I thought it would it would definitely be @Dragy catnip.

To me ... the main elements of 2hbh pace ... in this order were 1) shoulder turn 2) left arm extending straight into contact 3) lag/waggle with very relaxed hands/wrist. That said ... only hit from open backswing, so nothing to compare to other than a frustrating 30 minutes with ball machine trying to stay square/closed in 2hbh backswing.
As you tagged me... imho, arm-roll contribution is grip-dependent. With full W grip it all goes into spin. Now with conti - think of serve, the famous "pronation" or ISR, as we got educated by @Chas Tennis - goes fully into pace. We may conclude, disregarding odd wrist positions, that with E grip (non-dominant hand for 2HBH) arm internal rotation, aka rolling, will add to pace quite a bit.
 

nyta2

Professional
Interesting that you are thinking arm rotation adds to rhs ... I've always thought that about the flip fh. Now I have started to question that in my mind. I now wonder if arm rotation on flip is only adding to topspin (more rh drop and more ww ???). If arm roll adds rh propeller, and any release of wrist extension adds 2nd lever release (nunchucks) ... is it only the lever release that adds to rhs? Note: if nunchucks also has a rotation element ... than I need a different analogy. 8-B

I've asked that here on ttw several times ... no bites ... I thought it would it would definitely be @Dragy catnip.

To me ... the main elements of 2hbh pace ... in this order were 1) shoulder turn 2) left arm extending straight into contact 3) lag/waggle with very relaxed hands/wrist. That said ... only hit from open backswing, so nothing to compare to other than a frustrating 30 minutes with ball machine trying to stay square/closed in 2hbh backswing.
lol, i'm not smart enough to understand what you just wrote...
but i specifically was addressing "forearm" rotation (not arm) contributing to overall rhs... kinda like how pronating (forearm rotation) contributes to rhs on the serve.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Have you had your morning coffee? Time for a pirate quiz question:

Nadal has just hit is max rhs flattest fh with a closed rf. It travels on a line for a good distance before spin/gravity turns it into a heavy dipping path.

Quiz question:

Assuming everything the same ... incoming ball, racquet, strings, etc ... could Nadal reproduce that same shot with a square rf if you allow him to alter swing path and swing speed?

You are going to be torn between saying you don't do ttw quizzes and a derogatory dark shade response. 8-B
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
As you tagged me... imho, arm-roll contribution is grip-dependent. With full W grip it all goes into spin. Now with conti - think of serve, the famous "pronation" or ISR, as we got educated by @Chas Tennis - goes fully into pace. We may conclude, disregarding odd wrist positions, that with E grip (non-dominant hand for 2HBH) arm internal rotation, aka rolling, will add to pace quite a bit.
Ah ... excellent response. (y) I remember many discussions about different actions (esr vs supination for example) in flip fh based on grip. But ... never thought of that impact on rhs.

So ... we would expect Federer fh is gaining more rhs with the flip arm rolling than say a Sock. I guess a different way to think about it is the weaker the grip the more linear, and the stronger the more rotation.

I can live with this ... I will quit asking ... probably. 8-B
 

nyta2

Professional
I've tried it because of Agassi's takeback. But for some reason it cause open face at contact too and too flat of a shot. Now I just take racquet back and don't worry too much about the face angle.
that is/was my experience as well... in general i'm searching for dumbed down technique(s) that even a talentless guy like me can execute.
 

nyta2

Professional
One thing I've learnt over time, regarding tennis, is to try not to dismiss anything that works for someone as poor technique (which you weren't necessarily doing), or something that will "only work for them", you'll be surprised with the gains you can make if you give unorthodox techniques a chance.
that's definitely what i'm learning now :)
as mentioned before, i was always in search of dummy proof technique... ignoring idiosyncrasies
this "open face on the backswing" i originally deemed as an idiosyncrasy, not a key must learn concept for more rhs.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
lol, i'm not smart enough to understand what you just wrote...
but i specifically was addressing "forearm" rotation (not arm) contributing to overall rhs... kinda like how pronating (forearm rotation) contributes to rhs on the serve.
Sorry ... I promised myself I would never discuss FHs or arm rolling again ... but like I just posted ... a known liar.

See Draggy's response ... seems like a good logical way to looks at it.

fyi ... I got to the point discussing the flip fh that both forearm rolling and entire arm rolling from shoulder was the same difference to me. Limpin always pointed out ATP players varied on how much esr vs supination (and opposite).
 
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Dragy

Legend
So ... we would expect Federer fh is gaining more rhs with the flip arm rolling than say a Sock.
Well there's another layer of different arm bend: I suppose, bent-arm FH makes RF travel into the ball more with strong grips because of ISR. So for Sock upper arm internal rotation still contributes to RH coming from lagged position into and past contact.

Now if you compare Fed's almost-eastern and Nadal strong-SW, the latter will convert more arm roll into spin, while the former - into pace. But actually both are reasonable to apply RHS for combo of spin and pace.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Well there's another layer of different arm bend: I suppose, bent-arm FH makes RF travel into the ball more with strong grips because of ISR. So for Sock upper arm internal rotation still contributes to RH coming from lagged position into and past contact.

Now if you compare Fed's almost-eastern and Nadal strong-SW, the latter will convert more arm roll into spin, while the former - into pace. But actually both are reasonable to apply RHS for combo of spin and pace.
When I was looking at a lot of ATP fh video ... the hand traveled with shoulder line with both bent arm and straight arm. So whatever elements of arm and forearm rolling happens ... the rotation and rhs happens around that hand traveling with shoulder line. Of course ... shoulder turn pauses at some point and arm travels forward to contact ... and the difference between bent and straight in that final stage is the stuff of headaches (like the rest of FH discussions 8-B ).

Regardless ... you have me back to thinking most ATP forehands are gaining rhs (not just spin) with the flip.
 

Slowtwitcher

Hall of Fame
that is/was my experience as well... in general i'm searching for dumbed down technique(s) that even a talentless guy like me can execute.
For me the RF angle at takeback is all about the left hand grip. With a solid Eastern, the RF is slightly closed.
 

nyta2

Professional
For me the RF angle at takeback is all about the left hand grip. With a solid Eastern, the RF is slightly closed.
makes sense...
reminds me of what jolly mentioned earlier (eg. the open face on take back is partially a function of your grip and type of shot you're trying to hit)..
i have a grip closer to semi-western which is probably why i tend to have a vertical/closed face on takeback
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Have you had your morning coffee? Time for a pirate quiz question:

Nadal has just hit is max rhs flattest fh with a closed rf. It travels on a line for a good distance before spin/gravity turns it into a heavy dipping path.

Quiz question:

Assuming everything the same ... incoming ball, racquet, strings, etc ... could Nadal reproduce that same shot with a square rf if you allow him to alter swing path and swing speed?

You are going to be torn between saying you don't do ttw quizzes and a derogatory dark shade response. 8-B
Close but not exactly the same.

Remember that half of the reason for racquet face angle is to counter the incoming ball (both trajectory and spin) so when I work on technique with a student and we do hand feeds first, then racquet feeds, then progress to hitting you will see the racquet face closing slightly (very slightly) in each progression, so if you tried to hit with a closed racquet face against some park player bozo you would hit the ball into the ground on your side of the court before it even got to the net

J
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
No.

For example. There is only one guy in history among pros (to my knowledge) who used a 27.5” frame at 12 ounces and with 360sw and who didn’t use a wrist band. That’s an extreme outlier racquet spec. It’s almost impossible to hit a decent volley with a spec like that, so no one else would try to play with something like that. But that spec makes it easy to really whip the racquet down and up on the serve to generate a lot of racquet head speed with outlier technique that no else uses, so that guy won a few trophies.
I do not want to filter out _all_ posts by @travlerajm . But could I ask for a feature where I could put on a banned list _any_ post that refers to using a wristband?? I can't take it anymore......
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I do not want to filter out _all_ posts by @travlerajm . But could I ask for a feature where I could put on a banned list _any_ post that refers to using a wristband?? I can't take it anymore......
You don't understand the blood, sweat, and tears it took to rework my backhand after switching to a Galaxy watch from my Fitbit...

J
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
makes sense...
reminds me of what jolly mentioned earlier (eg. the open face on take back is partially a function of your grip and type of shot you're trying to hit)..
i have a grip closer to semi-western which is probably why i tend to have a vertical/closed face on takeback
The more one talks about 2hbhs ... the more you find out how many ways there are to hit one. I'm barely gripping the racquet with my left hand on backswing ... racquet and rf controlled by right arm/hand. Just checking with shadow swing ... about all left arm/hand is doing is help support rh up position. This continues through going into lag with the telltale bowed right hand (right hand bows racquet down to lag position ... left hand still doing nothing more than light grip).

Then from lag ... arm triangle swing mainly controlled by right arm until the left arm extending/hitting.

It's my right hand (cont) that is controlling rf all the way to contact. At contact ... less than clear to me how much left hand eastern grip is controlling rf vs right hand, because at contact both hands working together virtually as a single grip.

If I had to only pick one at contact controlling rf ... it would be the right hand, with left primarily boosting the pushing of arm triangle into contact. Obviously not totally that simple ... because what about those shots from your bh corner where you do a little extra with left hand for cc angle. ???

Some evidence for me that my right hand was dictating more of the rf at contact was experimenting with grip changes with ball machine. When I kept my right cont, and moved left from east to sw ... good to go. I didn't like it as well ... but no problem hitting the same basic stroke. BUT ... when I rolled my right from cont to lf east ... BAD things happened. :eek: I have no idea how many reps it would have taken to be "good to go".

IMO ... the fact you can hit a 2hbh with so much variation including stances makes it a very fun stroke. My guess is it worked in my favor during tournament years to hit 1hbh (particularly slice) because even if my baseline game was stronger with the 2hbh ... I needed to be a s&v player for best results. For one thing ... I was never in the kind of shape to play every match in a long grinding match from the baseline. 1hbh skills (or lack of) migrated to net skills. Most players with decent 1hbh are going to hit a decent bh volley. Also c&c ... 1hbh slice.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
You don't understand the blood, sweat, and tears it took to rework my backhand after switching to a Galaxy watch from my Fitbit...

J
I feel your pain. I definitely do not understand - but I do sympathize ... BTW - that is why I did not want to get married - I was afraid that an added weight of a wedding band would adversely affect my forehand......
 

nyta2

Professional
The more one talks about 2hbhs ... the more you find out how many ways there are to hit one. I'm barely gripping the racquet with my left hand on backswing ... racquet and rf controlled by right arm/hand. Just checking with shadow swing ... about all left arm/hand is doing is help support rh up position. This continues through going into lag with the telltale bowed right hand (right hand bows racquet down to lag position ... left hand still doing nothing more than light grip).

Then from lag ... arm triangle swing mainly controlled by right arm until the left arm extending/hitting.

It's my right hand (cont) that is controlling rf all the way to contact. At contact ... less than clear to me how much left hand eastern grip is controlling rf vs right hand, because at contact both hands working together virtually as a single grip.

If I had to only pick one at contact controlling rf ... it would be the right hand, with left primarily boosting the pushing of arm triangle into contact. Obviously not totally that simple ... because what about those shots from your bh corner where you do a little extra with left hand for cc angle. ???

Some evidence for me that my right hand was dictating more of the rf at contact was experimenting with grip changes with ball machine. When I kept my right cont, and moved left from east to sw ... good to go. I didn't like it as well ... but no problem hitting the same basic stroke. BUT ... when I rolled my right from cont to lf east ... BAD things happened. :eek: I have no idea how many reps it would have taken to be "good to go".

IMO ... the fact you can hit a 2hbh with so much variation including stances makes it a very fun stroke. My guess is it worked in my favor during tournament years to hit 1hbh (particularly slice) because even if my baseline game was stronger with the 2hbh ... I needed to be a s&v player for best results. For one thing ... I was never in the kind of shape to play every match in a long grinding match from the baseline. 1hbh skills (or lack of) migrated to net skills. Most players with decent 1hbh are going to hit a decent bh volley. Also c&c ... 1hbh slice.
yeah in one of the books I have it has a matrix discussing the pro/cons of the left/right grip combinations. then I think the yandell site has an article(s) about the bend configurations of the arms. somewhere I was reading about the different take backs (straight, loop, etc,...). at some point I was researching the amount of racquet drop via the left hand (eg 0 to 45degrees).

definitely a lot of variety. maybe at the end of the day, the solution is just to put a lot of hours on the court and do what comes naturally to allow you to consistently achieve your goal (eg, consistency, depth, pavement, power).

[edit]
also that's why i try to never that one technique is wrong/right... instead i describe things in terms of what worked for me or explicitly did not work for me (or just say i don't know if i've never tried something before... like the 2hbh scoop finish, or the open face on 2hbh backswing).
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Close but not exactly the same.

Remember that half of the reason for racquet face angle is to counter the incoming ball (both trajectory and spin) so when I work on technique with a student and we do hand feeds first, then racquet feeds, then progress to hitting you will see the racquet face closing slightly (very slightly) in each progression, so if you tried to hit with a closed racquet face against some park player bozo you would hit the ball into the ground on your side of the court before it even got to the net

J
Uh oh ... your meme is ringing true if the closed face is primarily to counter the heavy hitting opponent, rather than doing your own heavy trajectory thing. I'm glad I peaked past park bozo but short of rf dictating opponents. 8-B
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I feel your pain. I definitely do not understand - but I do sympathize ... BTW - that is why I did not want to get married - I was afraid that an added weight of a wedding band would adversely affect my forehand......
I brought my buddy's racquet to be strung and my stringer said "I didn't know he was married." I was like how do you know he is married, and my stringer pointed to the racquet where the paint was worn off the throat from the wedding ring on his prep for 1hbh.

J
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
yeah in one of the books I have it has a matrix discussing the pro/cons of the left/right grip combinations. then I think the yandell site has an article(s) about the bend configurations of the arms. somewhere I was reading about the different take backs (straight, loop, etc,...). at some point I was researching the amount of racquet drop via the left hand (eg 0 to 45degrees).

definitely a lot of variety. maybe at the end of the day, the solution is just to put a lot of hours on the court and do what comes naturally to allow you to consistently achieve your goal (eg, consistency, depth, pavement, power).
Since I was 2hbh DYI with ball machine ... I spent some time first with instruction videos, posts here, looking at pro 2hbhs. The single best piece of all of that was Yandell's old article ... told him that here (ttw).


If I had a tennis friend ask "where to start with 2hbh" ... I would tell him/her pick your 2hbh style, or it will pick you. Then have them read that article.

So I basically agree with the premise "do what comes naturally to you" with the big 2hbh exception of "pick your arm position goals". I hit 10,000+ 2hbhs that first summer. It would have been quite irritating at the end of that summer to hear about straight left arm at contact after you were now committed to Venus Williams chicken wings. It has nothing to do with level ... chicken wings have won majors. Just seems like if you start something you might do for years ... know the basic options before you start.

Said another way ... if I showed at the court for you to teach me a 2hbh (poor you) ... long before we get too far down the road I want to hear about that straight left arm option.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I brought my buddy's racquet to be strung and my stringer said "I didn't know he was married." I was like how do you know he is married, and my stringer pointed to the racquet where the paint was worn off the throat from the wedding ring on his prep for 1hbh.

J
Never wore a wedding ring in my life ... and I am WAY married. If I remember correctly gripping a tennis racquet and risk losing the ring was part of my weak defense. :love:
 

nyta2

Professional
I brought my buddy's racquet to be strung and my stringer said "I didn't know he was married." I was like how do you know he is married, and my stringer pointed to the racquet where the paint was worn off the throat from the wedding ring on his prep for 1hbh.

J
hah, i just looked at my racquets... same chips! i too was wondering how the heck they get chipped there (no chance unless i throw it at a fence).
guessing it happens when i spin my racquet and it hits my wedding band.
 

Slowtwitcher

Hall of Fame
makes sense...
reminds me of what jolly mentioned earlier (eg. the open face on take back is partially a function of your grip and type of shot you're trying to hit)..
i have a grip closer to semi-western which is probably why i tend to have a vertical/closed face on takeback
The Continental/Semi-Western grip really didn't work for me. Just felt like just spin, no penetration. Also hard to hit on-the-rise with it, which I think is one of the big strengths of the 2HBH. I think you either go Continental/Eastern or Eastern/Semi-Western.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
I feel your pain. I definitely do not understand - but I do sympathize ... BTW - that is why I did not want to get married - I was afraid that an added weight of a wedding band would adversely affect my forehand......
so now my wife found out about these posts and she wants to meet @travlerajm. To scold the person that is responsible for delaying our wedding.... :)
btw - to clarify, my worries were completely unfounded. My forehand did not suffer due to that added wedding band weight. now, the backhand - I had the choice to re-do it completely or wear a second band on my thumb to apparently counterweight something. It looks weird but it is small sacrifice we all need to make to play tennis.... :)
 
Jim Courier was talking about this at the Aussie open during the Kyrgios /Thiem match. Seems like Kyrgios (and a few other pros) hit their 2hbackhands with a slightly opened racquet face.

the commentary team seems to think it’s more of a result of wanting to bunt the ball back rather than drive at it. Probably wouldn’t see djokovic hitting such a shot.
Interesting you mention Kyrgios: I've observed that he seems to push/shovel his BH more than most. It also seems to be the simplest motion on tour. But I never correlated it with racquet face angle.
 
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