2HBH DIY w/Ball machine

ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
If you want to learn a 2hbh and have access to professional tennis instructors, definitely start there. If you are looking for detailed instruction and debate... grips, stroke, etc... tons of that here at TT, this isn't that. That's your first warning. :) I recently converted from a ohb to 2hbh ... perhaps I can save you some time ... the frustrations and misconceptions are fresh on my mind.

If you are still reading, have access to a ball machine, and want "a method" that might help you learn a foundational 2hbh on your own, keep reading.

foundational 2hbh: you have a grooved 2hbh stroke (with shoulder turn, left pocket to right ear, racquet taps you on the back during follow thru... some topspin) hitting the ball machine that feeds you the ball time after time to the exact same strike zone. Additional 2hbh variations in follow through will come more easily later after you have one basic stroke mastered... IMO ... my non-ever-taught-someone-to-play-tennis opinion.

Like I said, this isn't intended to be detailed technical instruction, or cover all variations, or debate the merits... if I mention something technical below, I think it's useful even in the beginning to know. It's always hard to know what is "too much" information.

Do this... don't argue :) ... just do it:

fyi ... assume right handed player for following

- first ... ball machine setup. This is what I suggest, assuming your ball machine can handle it. Set the ball machine further back from the base line. I actually would set it up almost against the back fence. I then set it on a high speed... and then adjusted vertically to where the ball bounced at the base line about hip level. No spin, no oscillation ... minimize the variables to learn a new stroke.

- read this (violating my too-much-info rule here because in this case, helpful to know where you are going) ... start with Bent/Straight (right arm bent at contact, left arm straight at contact) ... start with rh continental, lh eastern

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/two_handed_backhand/2hd_bh_simplest_complex/Copy of 2hd_bh_simplest_complex.html

- It's hard enough at first just trying to hit a 2hbh with that left hand now on the racquet. There are a bunch of timing issues going on... but here is a big hint I had to learn the hard way... you won't make much progress without the preparation shoulder turn. Watch Djokovic slow motion ... or any pro match on tv... get in that shoulder turn ready position or else you will be relegated to a weak, all arm stroke.


- So the goal is to learn one initial full 2hbh stroke.. the video is a perfect example of a full stroke ... from left hip, over the right ear, and tap the racquet on the back. I mention the tap on the back because it took me a while before I realized I just thought I was hitting a full follow through. Feel the tap.. learn a full CONTROL swing first. You will get better quicker if you can hit your spots, rather than worry about pace.

- HINT: I have hit a ohb forever, so I never think about being prepared in time. The one thing that started helping me on the timing and being prepared early enough was timing my shoulder turn ready position with the bounce of the ball being fed to me. Obviously this depends on the pace of your feed, and this isn't something you would think about once you have learned a stroke.. but I found that very helpful working out the new timing and movement.

- HINT: when learning a new tennis stroke, I think it's pretty common to tense up on the stoke. There are just too many thoughts ... muscle memory isn't there yet. But... the 2hbh does not work (at least for me) unless I'm very relaxed during the stroke.

- ***HINT***: this is the big one. It's equivalent to the three first rules of golf of 1) keep your head down 2) keep your d@mn head down 3) keep your f****** head down.

Your left hand isn't just there for the ride, it actually has to do something. In fact, it has to hit the ball.

Coming from a ohb ... a pretty good one ... my body/mind wasn't happy about that left hand being on the racquet. If you read the article linked at the top... Agassi hits a Straight/Straight 2hbh, and says his is very right arm dominant. Many believe this is the best option for those coming from the ohb. I started with Straight/Straight and it did not work for me... my left arm and hand had to take over.

Hit it with your left arm and hand:

This needed it's own heading. First, IMO, the attempt to teach this stroke as "hitting a left handed forehand" isn't useful past ... "yeah, the left hand should have forehand grip". But that's it for me... it's not a left handed forehand... and I think this is the area where it's most difficult to put into words for others what we think is going on. You hear 70% non-dominant hand, etc... but who the heck could measure that during their swing. Here is the best I can do to explain what it feels like to me... and what is going on when you start your swing:

1) first, it seems like I'm just letting the racquet fall on it's own to ... I guess they call it the slot... but pretty much to say your left pocket... main thing is not really pulling with either arm ... shoulder turn started and just let racquet fall into slot

2) but from near the bottom of the racquet drop to contacting the ball... it's all left arm/hand dominant. No idea what percentage... but that is the day your 2hbh starts to click... when your left arm/hand takes over in the forward swing.

But it's not a left handed forehand, because that right arm and hand are still there. You are not strong enough to hit a left handed forehand with nothing but dead weight from the right arm. And there is where it becomes so difficult I think to explain, and teach what is going on. To me.. all of that takes care of itself once you let the left hand be the boss in the forward swing.

- It took much longer than I would have guessed for me to get that foundational 2hbh. I know I hit the ball machine for 3+ times per week for 3+ months to get a really grooved ball machine stroke. I call it a ball machine stroke, because I found when I tried to take it to matches... more learning curve remained. If I could only find opponents that would hit it to that consistent ball machine strike zone. :)

Well... that's what comes to mind for now. I will edit it and add any additional things I remember that I struggled with.

Maybe others can add their comments in the spirit of "oh, you are just now wanting to learn the 2hbh, here are some initial things you should know without overloading you".
 
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It's a pull with the dominant arm then the off-arm takes over for most male ATP players.

The reason you think this is that you're coming from a OHB and had no non-dom arm feel.
The fastest fix for one handers is to hit non-dom arm forehands. I used the wall, much easier to set up & cheaper. :-)


ByeByePoly said:
Also, I've read where Agassi claims his 2hbh is right arm dominant.. left arm/hand does very little in hitting the ball. I call BULLSH*T... total Agassi fan, but I DO NOT believe him. I spent more time than I would like to admit hardly being able to get the ball over the net trying to relegate the left arm and hand to just a coach passenger. Balls literally cleared the fence an embarrassing number of times. Then finally... after several frustrating days of ball machine work, it clicked... hit that sucker with the left hand.
Click to expand...
 
There are so many websites explaining Federer and Nadal backhands in great detail. I can't find any website that breaks down Djokovic Backhand in detail. There are few youtube videos, but they are brief and lots of info is missing from them. They just breakdown things very generally, like early preparation, Racket head high, relaxed arms etc. Does anyone know any websites that explain Djokovic Backhand in detail? Like what his wrists, elbows, shoulders are doing in each phase of the swing?
 
heninfan99 said:
It's a pull with the dominant arm then the off-arm takes over for most male ATP players.

The reason you think this is that you're coming from a OHB and had no non-dom arm feel.
The fastest fix for one handers is to hit non-dom arm forehands. I used the wall, much easier to set up & cheaper. :)
Click to expand...

Hey Heninfan... btw, I was a total Henin fan. I don't think I ever rooted against her in any match. To this day I find it amazing someone her size could hit a ohb like that... what timing ... thing of beauty.

"It's a pull with the dominant arm then the off-arm takes over for most male ATP players."

Let me respond to that based on what I'm feeling... not to pro players. I totally agree that the non-dominant hand takes over. Maybe it varies from player to player exactly where... I feel it kicking in early right when racquet drops into slot (not sure about the lingo), and dominates the swing until impact. I suspect with some, the non-dominate hand might kick in closer to impact. I would have told you my left arm took over much later in the swing, but I checked it... pretty early actually.

For me... I don't think I am pulling with the dominate arm. I think the analogy would be a baseball swing, you don't pull with your leading arm to swing a bat... your arms move with your shoulders and then your right arm drives into the hit. I think it's the same initial shoulder and arm turn in the 2hbh, and both arms go together as a unit. The arms are turning because my shoulder and torso are turning, with no tension or pull from the back of my right arm. The arms continue to work as a unit, but at some point the left arm takes over and drives the hit. But this is where I don't think it's anything like a left handed forehand... the arms are still working together as a unit, even if the left arm has become the driver. The left arm is doing significantly less than a full left hand forehand... because it is getting assisted support from the right arm. Now.. I understand people teach with the left hand forehand to get it in the head that they will be having to hit with that left hand. Whatever works... maybe it would have made me click in quicker... but I doubt it, I had watched videos of the left hand forehand lesson thing.

"The reason you think this is that you're coming from a OHB and had no non-dom arm feel."

Yes, my left arm wasn't use to having to do anything other than the serve toss... but the real problem was a misconception. I read that article above... read about Straight/Straight and minimum non-dominant hand ... and thought Straight/Straight meant "hit it with your right hand ... left hand just there for support". Total failure for me. If you watch Aggasi hitting in that slow motion video in the first link, it's obvious he is knocking the cr@p out of the ball with that left hand. Now interesting, I think back to Borg and how he released his left hand with his 2hbh. I don't see how he could have been left hand dominant and still release the left hand.

Thanks for the input... my goal really was just to share my thoughts on the process of converting to the 2hbh while it was fresh on my mind. I think John Yandell's article was awesome. You don't want to overload at the start, but initial grips and some concept of Bent\Straight, etc. seem like a good starting point.

Thanks for the reply.
 
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If you're hitting str/bent, then I don't see how a straight left arm is pushing the racquet through contact. It seems like the ATM will be in a very weak position to provide a lot of push.

FWIW, I think for a str/bent bh the right arm is a key power source near and through contact. It has to pull on the racquet handle to help whip the head of the racquet from a lagging position and into the ball. The left arm is mostly controlling the face angle and swing path, and providing a fulcrum for the pulling right arm.

Look at Djoko's right bicep as the racquet approaches contact. You can clearly see it fitting, which would tend to create a pulling on the racquet handle.
 
rkelley said:
If you're hitting str/bent, then I don't see how a straight left arm is pushing the racquet through contact. It seems like the ATM will be in a very weak position to provide a lot of push.

FWIW, I think for a str/bent bh the right arm is a key power source near and through contact. It has to pull on the racquet handle to help whip the head of the racquet from a lagging position and into the ball. The left arm is mostly controlling the face angle and swing path, and providing a fulcrum for the pulling right arm.

Look at Djoko's right bicep as the racquet approaches contact. You can clearly see it fitting, which would tend to create a pulling on the racquet handle.
Click to expand...

Hey rk,

Remember little league baseball where we just hit the ball with a bat ... arms knew what to do without detailed analysis.

What is ATM?

Came back and added this ... got on a rant below and forgot to respond to your main point. I am definitely pushing with left arm and hitting with left hand with bent/straight. That said, haven't had anyone watch me or video me ... perhaps I am more bent / bent in reality.

"If you're hitting str/bent, then I don't see how a straight left arm is pushing the racquet through contact."

Good timing with your question. I was just thinking about this and taking swings with my racquet inside ... dogs are getting nervous. :)

Here is my conclusion ... both arms and shoulders are involved working together... one can't do it without the other.

Try this:
- take a backhand swing and when you start forward try just pulling and swinging with your right arm ... just hold on with left hand. Not possible

- now do the same thing with just the left arm, push the swing and just hold on with right hand. Not possible

A lot going on ... arms working as a unit at same time ... my left arm pushing and heninfan right arm pulling. Has to, neither arm could overcome the dead weight of the other.

I am totally puzzled why I wrestled at first with the left arm not doing it's natural thing from the start. I played baseball until 9th grade, and tons of golf. The back arm/hand always finishes the hit. I will just chalk it up to the fact it's my left hand, and I'm right handed. Reminds me one day I was hitting 2hbh with the ball machine, and a couple was hitting next to me. The gal was fairly new to tennis, or maybe just getting back into it, but was definitely watching and thinking about the 2hbh. Then she says ... "oh, it's like a baseball swing". I was about to say no, and explain why ... but I had nothing. I think she nailed it ... I said "yep, baseball swing, but low to high for some topspin". :)
 
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ATM was an auto-complete thing. It was supposed to be "left arm".

I'm not saying the left arm is just going along for the ride. Both arms are important for power. But lots of folks talk about the left arm, but that right arm has to be pulling as well or you're not going to have a top level bh. The pull is especially critical right before and through contact.
 
rkelley said:
ATM was an auto-complete thing. It was supposed to be "left arm".

I'm not saying the left arm is just going along for the ride. Both arms are important for power. But lots of folks talk about the left arm, but that right arm has to be pulling as well or you're not going to have a top level bh. The pull is especially critical right before and through contact.
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Good input, the reason for the post was an attempt to offer tips for 2hbh initial learning curve while it was fresh on my mind since I just went thru it.
rkelley said:
ATM was an auto-complete thing. It was supposed to be "left arm".

I'm not saying the left arm is just going along for the ride. Both arms are important for power. But lots of folks talk about the left arm, but that right arm has to be pulling as well or you're not going to have a top level bh. The pull is especially critical right before and through contact.
Click to expand...

Good input from you and heninfan... even the quality bitchslap from Mr Danger was enjoyed, although I don't think that helped anyone with their 2hbh. :)

So we are all agreed that both arms are involved... could leave it at that for anyone starting out, and they could find their way.

BUT... NAH... that would be to boring.

Don't know if anyone tried my two exercises above... 1) try and hit your 2hbh with the left arm/hand doing nothing but holding on 2) try and hit your 2hbh with the right arm/hand doing nothing but hanging on.

If you actually do those two things, we can eliminate any concept of "any one arm is doing all of it". As we have agreed, both arms are required to be making "some" effort, whatever "some" is.

Try these ... I just did them and it was quite informative:
- take your 2hbh swing with shoulder turn WITHOUT helping with either the right or left arm (gentle grip pressure) ... you can get some fairly good racquet head speed
- now do the same thing, but try and help with the right arm (pulling) ... I literally couldn't pull ... got same racquet head speed as not helping with either arm
- now do the swing, but right at the start of the swing go after it with the left arm and hand all the way through ... SWOOSH!!! Game, set and match :)

My takeaway is any "pulling" that is going on, is perhaps leading with the right shoulder on uncoiling, but don't feel pulling from right arm tricep ... right arm is just holding firm providing the leverage coming from the shoulder turn into the stroke.

Now if I do my ohb, at some point into the stroke after shoulder uncoiling, I do feel the back of the arm muscles working. If I really want to feel that "pulling", I do a ohb without the shoulder turn... then you really feel the back of the arm muscle "pulling".

Perhaps we are just talking past each other and it's a semantics thing... but I do not feel back of the right arm "pulling" in the 2hbh. What I suspect you mean by "pulling right before contact" is similar to that evil game of golf. The pro golfers get maximum club head speed by delaying the "release" to right before contacting the golf ball ... their wrists uncock and rollover near impact which generates maximum club head speed right before contact. Well... if you read that article about Agassi I linked for Mr Danger, that sounds exactly like what is being described their. If this is what you are referring to... it might be a bit beyond this "intro" class. :)
 
rkelley said:
ATM was an auto-complete thing. It was supposed to be "left arm".

I'm not saying the left arm is just going along for the ride. Both arms are important for power. But lots of folks talk about the left arm, but that right arm has to be pulling as well or you're not going to have a top level bh. The pull is especially critical right before and through contact.
Click to expand...

I went and read a number of your posts... seems you tend to know what you are talking about. :) Actually, you are exactly who I hoped would show up and turn my initial post into something very useful for those just converting (or just getting started) with the 2hbh. I wanted a different type of "tips" than arguing about too much details... kind of a "need to know only type of fast-track". Now... granted right from the start, not everyone has access to a ball machine, so this was "limited" advice or tips right from the start. I was lucky ... I was given a ball machine and decided it was time for that 2hbh experiment I had always been curious about. I didn't say what level I played, because I figured either the tips were valid, good advice or not, regardless of level. But for the record, I played 30 years of 4.5 tennis... first half of that tournaments (better singles player than doubles), then another 15 years of 4.5 USTA league tennis... mostly doubles (doubles starts to make more sense as you get older ... but I was always better at singles) :)

Since you do know what you are talking about... I would really like your opinion on the three tests/exercises I suggested before. I wasn't intending this thread to be education for my 2hbh, but I always learn where I can. I can't get that 2hbh to SWOOSH without the left arm getting after it... and I can't make it SWOOSH with right arm pulling. Maybe I have a defective right arm. :)
 
Know what I'm talking about? Ah! Fooled you. There are a lot of posters here who are more knowledgeable that me, but thanks.

Regarding SWOOSH or racquet head speed, I've experimented with this. The most general take home message from my experience is that you need both hands participating like you've said. Along with the racquet head speed, you have to have as quiet a body as possible so the racquet actually hits the ball, especially if you're trying to hit top spin. For me, I got the best results with a str/bent configuration at contact, initiating the swing with a shoulder turn and a relaxed left arm (but not passive), and then pulling with the right arm to pull the racquet from the lag position to into contact with the ball. My left probably gets more engaged too near contact, but I'm thinking about the right.

One thing to note, I thought I was hitting str/bent for a long time. In the last couple of years I started taking video of myself. I was not hitting str/bent a lot of the time. The video really helped me match what I was actually doing with what it felt like.
 
rkelley said:
Know what I'm talking about? Ah! Fooled you. There are a lot of posters here who are more knowledgeable that me, but thanks.

Regarding SWOOSH or racquet head speed, I've experimented with this. The most general take home message from my experience is that you need both hands participating like you've said. Along with the racquet head speed, you have to have as quiet a body as possible so the racquet actually hits the ball, especially if you're trying to hit top spin. For me, I got the best results with a str/bent configuration at contact, initiating the swing with a shoulder turn and a relaxed left arm (but not passive), and then pulling with the right arm to pull the racquet from the lag position to into contact with the ball. My left probably gets more engaged too near contact, but I'm thinking about the right.

One thing to note, I thought I was hitting str/bent for a long time. In the last couple of years I started taking video of myself. I was not hitting str/bent a lot of the time. The video really helped me match what I was actually doing with what it felt like.
Click to expand...

You know what you are talking about... I am not fooled easily ... well, at least with tennis. :)

I have started a SWOOSH test thread... do your part and reply for science. :)

Oh... although I totally agree with the value of videoing yourself, I never recovered from the time I did that with a friend. We were both moving up a level in singles tournaments, and felt pretty good about our games. That was ... until we watched the video. That was the end of that. But seriously... no substitute for seeing yourself, I should actually do that. Even if I look bad... I am hitting with good pace and hitting spots pretty good with the ball machine. For various reasons, haven't been able to test it with enough match play. I will say this about the 2hbh after decades of the ohb ... I find topspin on the 2hbh effortless. You also have a lot more margin for error with your preparation imo, I found I had to be pretty spot on with the ohb, but I can make adjustments (i.e. hit with open stance) with the 2hbh. JMO. Topspin happens without thinking about it if you just take the low to high ... pocket to ear swing. You mentioned bent/straight. When I understood the variations, I knew I wanted the straight arm at impact. I have been watching Federer forehand slow motion video, and love how he hits that with the extended arm... thing of beauty. I try that some with the ball machine, but it takes really good timing. So the extended arm contact position was already fresh on my mind when I took up my little 2hbh project. Really... since I had a ohb for so long, I thought the Straight/Straight would be the easiest transition. Not for me... epic fail. Things started clicking when I gave up and went to bent/straight ... hey, good enough for Djokovic. :) I think the straight left arm at contact gives the most leverage and easy pace, but if you really want to topspin (like topspin lob), I have found really relaxing the arms and hitting a bent/bent works great. I have read where some of the top pros would vary from one to the other depending on shot. I have had a good topspin lob off the forehand for a long time, but not even on option on my ohb (mainly flat ball hitter, and a lot of slice backhands, particularly when I play singles). It will be nice to be able to keep that net guy from sticking his nose over the net in doubles from both wings.
 
rkelley said:
If you're hitting str/bent, then I don't see how a straight left arm is pushing the racquet through contact. It seems like the ATM will be in a very weak position to provide a lot of push.

FWIW, I think for a str/bent bh the right arm is a key power source near and through contact. It has to pull on the racquet handle to help whip the head of the racquet from a lagging position and into the ball. The left arm is mostly controlling the face angle and swing path, and providing a fulcrum for the pulling right arm.

Look at Djoko's right bicep as the racquet approaches contact. You can clearly see it fitting, which would tend to create a pulling on the racquet handle.
Click to expand...

I thought about this ... and I think the main power source is legs and uncoiling torso and shoulders ... with left arm providing booster ... SWOOSH :)

I think it's the right arm and hand that are providing the fulcrum, swing path and racquet face angle.

It's a miracle we ever hit the ball over the net. :)

Are you left handed? :)
 
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ByeByePoly said:
OK ... perhaps I said that in inartfully ...

I am suggesting Aggasi is mistaken in thinking he doesn't hit quite a bit with the left hand, and heard experts say same thing
Click to expand...

Nalbandian is clear that he is also right hand dominant, it works for him.
 
ByeByePoly said:
Nalbandian's 2hbh was AWESOME. I have a Yonex NDIS 200 98 lite ... had the 11.7 also at one time. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen old video of him using the NDIS 200.
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Looks like it was the yellow and black RDS 001 ... thought I remembered him hitting the gold and black RDIS 200
 
I can't recall ever thinking about what each arm was doing when learning to swing a bat, swing a golf club or swing a 2HBH. They were all about swinging from the core and shoulders and releasing the hands late.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I can't recall ever thinking about what each arm was doing when learning to swing a bat, swing a golf club or swing a 2HBH. They were all about swinging from the core and shoulders and releasing the hands late.
Click to expand...

Exactly... all that baseball and golf I have played... and none of it seemed to help me those first couple of weeks. :) MightyRick made a comment about learning the 2hbh on another thread which was pretty much spot on ... paraphrasing "it won't help with others telling you what to do with your left hand... the only thing that will help is 100s of feeds until it clicks for you... and then you are off". Something like that anyway... invited him to add his two cents here... but he hasn't shown up yet.
 
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