2hbh ... I now think arm snap, not hands/wrist snap ... DOH!!!

[ByeByePoly]

Not sure what you mean.

To get to the slot you can either just straight out drop the left hand down or you can pull the right hand forward.

I would argue it makes sense that the right hand guides the racket into position initially before the left hand takes over.

For example if you were to try and hit a high bouncing ball and wanted some steep lag it would be the pull of your right arm first that guides the racket into position to hit the ball before the left arm goes to hit it.

I don't think we are on the same page of the definition of "the slot".

This is Djoker at the slot

This is Hewitt at the slot

Both of them just used both of their arms and both of their hands and just placed the racquet there ... any discussion of rotating/pulling/pushing is about what comes next from this slot to contact.

 

[a12345]

I don't think we are on the same page of the definition of "the slot".

This is Djoker at the slot

This is Hewitt at the slot

Both of them just used both of their arms and both of their hands and just placed the racquet there ... any discussion of rotating/pulling/pushing is about what comes next from this slot to contact.

Our defintions are the same in terms of position. However the slot is the flip. The racket flips to get into the slot and then left arm takes over.

You cant just place the racket into the slot, This doesnt achieve anything "extra". It would be like on the forehand deliberately placing the racket on edge to put it into the slot. Instead you need to flip the racket get into the slot, the same applies on the 2H backhand.

Another way to think of it is as you pull your arms back as far as you can your right shoulder muscles get stretched. As you release this shoulder muscle its going to pull your right arm forwards the other way. This causes the racket to flip and go into the slot.

However its important the left arm doesnt just drop back limply as this happens. The left arm has to straighten and ensure that the racket is moving slightly forwards as its going into the slot. So it feels like your almost pushing down into the racket as you straighten your left arm.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Our defintions are the same in terms of position. However the slot is the flip. The racket flips to get into the slot and then left arm takes over.

You cant just place the racket into the slot, This doesnt achieve anything "extra". It would be like on the forehand deliberately placing the racket on edge to put it into the slot. Instead you need to flip the racket get into the slot, the same applies on the 2H backhand.

Another way to think of it is as you pull your arms back as far as you can your right shoulder muscles get stretched. As you release this shoulder muscle its going to pull your right arm forwards the other way. This causes the racket to flip and go into the slot.

However its important the left arm doesnt just drop back limply as this happens. The left arm has to straighten and ensure that the racket is moving slightly forwards as its going into the slot. So it feels like your almost pushing down into the racket as you straighten your left arm.

no

 

[a12345]

If you look at Djokovic here, as he sets up, his right arm is all the way back which puts his hand outside the body and to the left of his left leg. You can test this for yourself if you just put your right arm as for back as it will go it will go past your left leg.

As he brings the racket down to the slot position, the hand goes inside the line of the body, roughly his hand is now in front of his left leg, and hes pulled it here to get here.

The hands start to the left of the body and at the slot theyre are in front of the body, roughly in front of the left leg.

 

[a12345]

The hands start all the way back past the left leg, at the slot the right hand is in front of the left leg.

 

[sredna42]

no

Good thread, the 2hbh is a strange beast, it looks so simple on paper, yet it's surprisingly more complicated than it appears.

I watched some little kid getting a lesson awhile back, and the coach yelling out "turn your shoulders faster" or something along those lines, and it was working, because this 10yo was drilling his CC 2hbh with real punch. Would have thrashed me lol.

I also watched this future's tournament earlier this year, was watching this blond kid, forget his name, and he had an awesome 2hbh, he was getting awesome whip on the ball, I remember thinking that, when you tried focusing on their arms, it made it impossible to determine just what was going on, but when I mentally backed off and just took the whole shot in, including moving to the ball, it seemed far clearer to me that it was timing of weight transfer (and being able to get there in order to do so) and snapping the shoulders.

Not being a smartarse, but if you feel that taking the racquet head back high is not necessary, then why do Nalbandian, Nishikori, ********, Murray etc do it? When I tried some shadow swings just starting off down low in "the slot" as you call it, it felt very strange, and forced. But then at the same time, Hewitt took his racquet back low like that and he had a great 2hbh...

my 2hbh sucks now

 

[ByeByePoly]

If you look at Djokovic here, as he sets up, his right arm is all the way back which puts his hand outside the body and to the left of his left leg. You can test this for yourself if you just put your right arm as for back as it will go it will go past your left leg.

As he brings the racket down to the slot position, the hand goes inside the line of the body, roughly his hand is now in front of his left leg, and hes pulled it here to get here.

The hands start to the left of the body and at the slot theyre are in front of the body, roughly in front of the left leg.

You will not find a pro setting the 2hbh racquet lag with the fh butt cap forward move (Macci calls "yank") ... I have looked. That's not how we set lag on 2hbh. Do you hit a 2hbh?

Interesting how much space he had between his right and left hand grip.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Good thread, the 2hbh is a strange beast, it looks so simple on paper, yet it's surprisingly more complicated than it appears.

I watched some little kid getting a lesson awhile back, and the coach yelling out "turn your shoulders faster" or something along those lines, and it was working, because this 10yo was drilling his CC 2hbh with real punch. Would have thrashed me lol.

I also watched this future's tournament earlier this year, was watching this blond kid, forget his name, and he had an awesome 2hbh, he was getting awesome whip on the ball, I remember thinking that, when you tried focusing on their arms, it made it impossible to determine just what was going on, but when I mentally backed off and just took the whole shot in, including moving to the ball, it seemed far clearer to me that it was timing of weight transfer (and being able to get there in order to do so) and snapping the shoulders.

Not being a smartarse, but if you feel that taking the racquet head back high is not necessary, then why do Nalbandian, Nishikori, ********, Murray etc do it? When I tried some shadow swings just starting off down low in "the slot" as you call it, it felt very strange, and forced. But then at the same time, Hewitt took his racquet back low like that and he had a great 2hbh...

my 2hbh sucks now

Please be a smartarse ... will give me a break from a12345 ... don't think his 2hbh level will make it to a123456.

Agassi and Djokovic's 2hbhs are fairly low. Go check Rios video hitting a 2hbh ... straight to slot ... #1 player in the world.

Yes ... on a closed stance weight transfer 2hbh timing is major ... have to be pretty much 100% weight bearing on front leg before uncoiling. Interestingly doesn't need to be that Zverev huge first step. I just watched a video where Djokovic crushed a 2hbh by simply starting from a fairly neutral stance and got weight on front leg just in time. If I find the video I will come add it to this post and tag you.

Of course the 2hbh has a lot of unique timing keys ... just start with two arms and hands doing their job at different stages in the stroke, including the timing of lag set and release discussed in this thread.

I would also include the timing of setting the 15-20lbs of arms and racquet into initial swing ... followed by riding that major heavy lever momentum and adding left arm power boost. It takes more to get going than that one arm FH ... but once it's moving you can use it to your advantage age. The initial swing comes from body rotation delivered at the shoulders ... not from arm A or B pulling or pushing. How could an arm pull the shoulders (other then end of follow through) ... that is a trick I want to see.

 

[a12345]

You will not find a pro setting the 2hbh racquet lag with the fh butt cap forward move (Macci calls "yank") ... I have looked. That's not how we set lag on 2hbh. Do you hit a 2hbh?

Interesting how much space he had between his right and left hand grip.

Its a very small pull forward, just enough to get the racket in position. Its maybe 15cm.

Once the racket has dipped then the left arm takes over.

Its a relatively small horizontal distance between racket all the way back and the slot position.

 

[sredna42]

Please be a smartarse ... will give me a break from a12345 ... don't think his 2hbh level will make it to a123456.

Agassi and Djokovic's 2hbhs are fairly low. Go check Rios video hitting a 2hbh ... straight to slot ... #1 player in the world.

Yes ... on a closed stance weight transfer 2hbh timing is major ... have to be pretty much 100% weight bearing on front leg before uncoiling. Interestingly doesn't need to be that Zverev huge first step. I just watched a video where Djokovic crushed a 2hbh by simply starting from a fairly neutral stance and got weight on front leg just in time. If I find the video I will come add it to this post and tag you.

Of course the 2hbh has a lot of unique timing keys ... just start with two arms and hands doing their job at different stages in the stroke, including the timing of lag set and release discussed in this thread.

I would also include the timing of setting the 15-20lbs of arms and racquet into initial swing ... followed by riding that major heavy lever momentum and adding left arm power boost. It takes more to get going than that one arm FH ... but once it's moving you can use it to your advantage age. The initial swing comes from body rotation delivered at the shoulders ... not from arm A or B pulling or pushing. How could an arm pull the shoulders (other then end of follow through) ... that is a trick I want to see.

It's funny you should say that, for in the very brief period I had my 2hbh working, I'd do the :
-Loose arms, right hand barely on racquet, more just to tether the swing
-Unit turn, RH straight, LH bent, space between body, step hit...
-But once I'd stepped and started the swing, i tried to "push" my LH to straight, and my RH being bent, and didn't think about low to high. It would rip LOTS of topspin if I wanted, and I felt like I could do anything with it. Looking at it, it seems the RH going to bent makes the racquet drop low on its own, so didn't need to think about it. But yeah, the key for me was
1. to make my right hand do barely nothing, I couldn't engage it really without getting "Andy Roddick" syndrome and getting frozen and choppy.
2. try to get push my left hand through to get the "LH straight-RH bent" go to "LH bent & RH straight" which seemed to get natural topspin, and felt fluid and effortless.

I just cannot do it now. Like a zombie I can't ressurect any longer. Like my serve.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Its a very small pull forward, just enough to get the racket in position. Its maybe 15cm.

Once the racket has dipped then the left arm takes over.

Its a relatively small horizontal distance between racket all the way back and the slot position.

We set the lag different in 2hbhs ... not from butt cap forward move. We set it earlier in 2hbhs.

Left arm doesn't take over (two arm swing), but becomes dominant by contact. How dominant, and when dominant depends on the pro. Agassi hit straight/straight at contact, and left arm probably became dominant nearer contact (definitely later than slot/lag set). For players like Hewitt with no/minimal lag ... left arm probably dominant right from slot. Venus to me ... looks like she is left arm dominant starting from racquet down and behind her. A lot of variations in pro 2hbhs.

 

[Power Player]

My point is we all end up at the bottom (slot) ... whatever technique (Hewitt loop, Djokovic drop (which is a loop, just smalker) or just stick it right down there in the slot like Rios and Radwanska. Then we all swing from the slot (uncoiling starts), not before.

Low to high will be defined by where your hands and racquet are at the slot, and swing path from there to contact. The prep (loop, drop, straight to slot) didn't define low to high swing.

Yes ... actually there really isn't ever a pure gravity drop. Whether loop or Djoker take back ... it's a combination of using gravity (weight of arms and racquet), but some muscle control to end up with hands and arms in right position at the slot. With 2hbh this often includes setting the racquet lag before swing from slot.

The idea with loop/gravity drop helping with rhs is that you have momentum carried into the slot which prevents you from starting from a standstill. But any slow motion review shows a slow controlled float down to slot before any shoulder rotation ... has to be minor contribution. Not minor in timing ... I prefer a drop/loop much more than just sticking the racquet immediately down.

We throw terms around here all the time ... this is what I mean by "slot" .... at bottom at the back right before significan torso rotation starts forward:

My view is it matters not how they got there ... hell take two loops or double pump the drop ... the $ is made from those slots to contact ... all IMO of course.

I originally went to get a pic of Hewitt at the slot since that is the reference Simon made. I had the picture of Hewitt hitting his FH loop ... but that isn't how he hits his BH ... closer to Djokovic than I remembered. I think Djokovic's type BH is also a loop ... just smaller than what we picture with the big loop of Hewitt's and Agassi's FHs. So I tried to find that big loop on any pro 2hbh ... didn't have much luck. Maybe you could say Key's is more of a loop ... but this is all degrees of difference to me, not bright line of 2hbh categories. Probably Coco's 2hbh would be the best example of the bigger loop ... but I could not find decent video to grab a pic from.

I’m going through a revamp of my 2hander and my main advice is not to overthink this, and just break it down into the key points that actually matter.

The first key point to focus on is the rhythm of your stroke. Split Step, pivot your left foot out to open your hip (it faces towards the side fence) and then turn. So all of that has to be done without thinking in rhythm. Are you able to do this now? I will guess yes, but a micro tip that may help is to line your left foot up to the ball like you would a forehand after you pivot out. It’s not as wide as with a forehand, so it’s subtle. This is because most people hit the 2hbh closer to their body. You may be already doing this, but I mention it since my issue was I was making contact towards the tip of the frame way too often and hitting duds, so this is how I align the shot.

That’s stage 1. Honestly takes some work and focus to get it automatic.

Now to stage 2 which is what everyone seems obsessed with here. It sounds like you are doing it like me. Get the racquet takeback high so you can get a loop. I do this on both sides. It is simple and makes everything thoughtless since no matter what side you hit from, you do a high takeback. It’s totally fine to keep the arms bent and close to your body here. Sounds like you do this already. Of course now dropping the frame will not only get it into the sot but also gives you a little gravity to help, instead of forcing it and starting from the bottom. The only other thing that matters is your right wrist bends so the racquet drops. Just like on the FH, if you are thinking about this, it’s no good. You want to minimize all thinking. So an easy way to drill this into your mind is to think that you are putting your right hand into your pocket. Don’t force the wrist bend or anything like that. It’s like how people focus on Pat the dog on the forehand, its not good and will make you tight. The wrist bend should be a result of your overall motion.

Ok finally stage 3. Follow through. Trust everything you have done and make a complete follow through. The best way to do this is to be relaxed the entire time and trust the frame. It’s hard at first, and I am dealing with that myself but the reality is that in order to have control of the ball we have to give it up first. That’s a tough thing for the mind to accept especially if you are used to manipulating the ball at contact, but it is the secret to free power and loose arms.

Hopefully that breaks it down better. It’s the same stuff I am working on. The worst thing you can do is get too micro in the analysis with it because it will cause hitches in your shot.

 

[ByeByePoly]

.

Yes ... loose arms, but with torso rotation upper arms come along for free ... so we can have very relaxed arms in that initial rotation forward. In fact, that is one of those key timing points that leads to smooth powered 2hbhs IMO. Venus seems to power all of it (torso and arms) from the back of the backswing, and a Djokovic, Agassi, etc. will have initial rotation with relaxed arms, and then fire arms (left dominant) later in swing.

I think the main checkpoint with arms is where do you want to be at contact ... assuming you want to pick it, and not have it pick you. Lot's of internet coach video say go with what comes natural, and there are grand champions with all of the 2hbh arm options.

But for the point of example (assume right handed) ... let's say you wanted to be straight left arm at contact (either straight/straight or bent/straight) . Regardless how we get to the slot (all kinds of initial unit turn arm positions ... and timing of extending arm by slot ... just check Cilic, Simon, Agassi, Djokovic for big variations) ... by slot, most of these straight left arm at contact players will look similar. I posted slot pictures of Djokovic, Zverev and Keys in post #24 in this thread. All of them have pretty straight arms at the slot, and all of them either hit straight left arm at contact ... or slight flexed left arm at contact.

It's funny you should say that, for in the very brief period I had my 2hbh working, I'd do the :

I'm a funny guy.

-Loose arms, right hand barely on racquet, more just to tether the swing

I have loose arms and light grip (easy to have light grip with two hands) on my 2hbhs ... loose + turned shoulders OR do not pass go. BUT ... here is an important part of that right arm action. Our upper arms come along for free with the shoulder rotation, so depending on the style of 2hbh (Djokovic ... not Venus) ... you can have very relaxed arms in initial shoulder rotation. I view my right arm as similar to a weather vane that starts straight in the backswing but ends up bent at contact. BUT ... the right arm positions aren't the big takeaway ... it is just to it's natural thing to facilitate the bent/straight contact. The big thing is the right arm is a stabilizing hinge throughout the swing ... it's one of the reasons a 2hbh is not a lhfh. At the start of the rotation, the shoulder rotation relies on this right arm lever/hinge ... because at that point our left arm is not helping a lot. That switches to the left arm helping a lot ... pushing that right arm hinge even faster. JMO of course.

-Unit turn, RH straight, LH bent, space between body, step hit...

All the arm stuff before the slot ... how bent initially

-But once I'd stepped and started the swing, i tried to "push" my LH to straight, and my RH being bent, and didn't think about low to high.

We step on close stance 2hbhs ... just hit off back leg/hip on semi open 2hbhs ... fyi for others.

It would rip LOTS of topspin if I wanted, and I felt like I could do anything with it. Looking at it, it seems the RH going to bent makes the racquet drop low on its own, so didn't need to think about it. But yeah, the key for me was

Yeah ... I don't think arm position makes the rh drop ... I think relaxing the hands and letting the rh drop ... also sometimes giving it an assist, for example pull racquet back a bit. I don't drop the rh on all swings ... sometimes no/little lag. My arms are always the same ... only difference is I let the rh drop, or I don't.

1. to make my right hand do barely nothing, I couldn't engage it really without getting "Andy Roddick" syndrome and getting frozen and choppy.

I don't think of my right hand as doing anything other than hanging on to the racquet. The right arm provides that critical hinge function from the torso/shoulders. Roddick 2hbh is ugly ... but Courier's was FUGLY!!!

2. try to get push my left hand through to get the "LH straight-RH bent" go to "LH bent & RH straight" which seemed to get natural topspin, and felt fluid and effortless.

I just cannot do it now. Like a zombie I can't ressurect any longer. Like my serve.

Perhaps you are locked into "arm analysis by paralysis" .... and yes I see the irony of typing that in my "2hbh arm snap" thread.

Try this:
1) grab your racquet in your 2hbh grip, extend both arms straight level with shoulders ... racquet extended level away from you, and swing racquet back and forward with nothing but torso/shoulder turn.
2) do the exact same thing ... but when arms get even with your left nipple (yeah ... that seems to be a bit exact for a shadow swing) ... try and swing faster by adding a lot of left arm.

To me ... at it's core, that is the 2hbh. Actually ... that is at it's core a baseball bat swing ... and "very close to a tennis 2hbh swing". That is not enough for tennis, because racquet isn't heavy like a baseball bat, and a tennis stroke has to be under control ... a homerun swing every 2hbh ain't going to work. Add moving to the ball, arm position, low to high, etc ... and then you get to the final 2hbh. But as far as core 2hbh ... my opinion is it is:

1) a swinging of both arms as a unit from the shoulder
2) adding to that with the left arm.

Just to prove the point how all over the place pro 2hbh prep is, consider Cilic and Simon below:


Lot's of pro variations here ... I will post Cilic and Simon below with comments to make the point ... stuff before the slot is all over the place.

Cilic:

Love the angle of the video below ... first time I have seen it. Here is what I think is informative about his 2hbh ... and why pre-slot unit turn prep isn't cookie cutter. Just watch the first 2hbh in the video. Not his arm positions at the back/top of the unit turn. If Djokovic was the rule ... that right arm has to be straight there ... right? He has both arms bent ... hands pretty close to chest. We might think the Djokovic straight arm is required for a good unit turn, and required arm position for a good 2hbh. Nope ... Cilic has a great unit turn with those chicken wing arm positions. Now watch what he does. Instead of extending his right arm at the top of the take back like Djokovic, and dropping extended arm ... he extends the right arm while he is dropping. No worries ... he ends up at his destination ... that island named SLOT looking pretty much the same as Djoker. Also ... both are off the charts good (sick) at a very late lag release near contact. We should not try that as rec players imo ... if you have have the racquet coming around your hand anywhere near the belly button ... call it a day/win.

Simon:

WTF ... dude doesn't even take racquet back across waist or chest. What is that low pendulum back crap? Oh wait .... look where he ended up at the back of the pendulum. That doesn't look that different than where Djokovic ended up taking racquet back horizontally. What does he look like when he pendulum's back down to the slot? DOH!!! same stuff ... great slot/lag ... same arms swung together followed by left arm dominance ... and there is that sick WAY LATE lag release.

I would add Rios to really make the point, but video is never good enough. Oh heck ... let's just add it anyway.

Rios didn't go across like Djoker, didn't pendulum down and then up like Simon ... dude just stuck his racquet down there. The nerve. Oh wait ... hard to see, but he turned the racquet back in some lag before he swing ... looks very similar to all the rest at the slot. That just can't be so ... he must hit a weak tea 2hbh because the gravity drop of loops/drops adds a ton of rhs. Uh ... damn ... dude hit the ball pretty hard. What ranking did he get to. Snap (see what I did there) ... dude got to #1.

I will be playing here all week.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I’m going through a revamp of my 2hander and my main advice is not to overthink this, and just break it down into the key points that actually matter.

The first key point to focus on is the rhythm of your stroke. Split Step, pivot your left foot out to open your hip (it faces towards the side fence) and then turn. So all of that has to be done without thinking in rhythm. Are you able to do this now? I will guess yes, but a micro tip that may help is to line your left foot up to the ball like you would a forehand after you pivot out. It’s not as wide as with a forehand, so it’s subtle. This is because most people hit the 2hbh closer to their body. You may be already doing this, but I mention it since my issue was I was making contact towards the tip of the frame way too often and hitting duds, so this is how I align the shot.

That’s stage 1. Honestly takes some work and focus to get it automatic.

Now to stage 2 which is what everyone seems obsessed with here. It sounds like you are doing it like me. Get the racquet takeback high so you can get a loop. I do this on both sides. It is simple and makes everything thoughtless since no matter what side you hit from, you do a high takeback. It’s totally fine to keep the arms bent and close to your body here. Sounds like you do this already. Of course now dropping the frame will not only get it into the sot but also gives you a little gravity to help, instead of forcing it and starting from the bottom. The only other thing that matters is your right wrist bends so the racquet drops. Just like on the FH, if you are thinking about this, it’s no good. You want to minimize all thinking. So an easy way to drill this into your mind is to think that you are putting your right hand into your pocket. Don’t force the wrist bend or anything like that. It’s like how people focus on Pat the dog on the forehand, its not good and will make you tight. The wrist bend should be a result of your overall motion.

Ok finally stage 3. Follow through. Trust everything you have done and make a complete follow through. The best way to do this is to be relaxed the entire time and trust the frame. It’s hard at first, and I am dealing with that myself but the reality is that in order to have control of the ball we have to give it up first. That’s a tough thing for the mind to accept especially if you are used to manipulating the ball at contact, but it is the secret to free power and loose arms.

Hopefully that breaks it down better. It’s the same stuff I am working on. The worst thing you can do is get too micro in the analysis with it because it will cause hitches in your shot.

Good post. Yeah ... I'm pretty happy where I am after 3+ years ... only reason I am talking about racquet lag now. I put it off until I was happy with a non-lag 2hbh. Early on I always saw the bowed right hand wrist on the pros, and didn't understand it. Someone here posted "it's simply allowing the rh to drop". Grabbed the racquet with a 2hbh grip ... put it at the slot, and then just let the racquet head drop. Right wrist bowed ... and I had a good laugh.

I don't mind a little conscious "rh drop/lag" on the 2hbh. I think we do it earlier, and more manually than the FH lag, so not an apples to apples comparison. Obviously it all fades to muscle memory ... but I find no detriment to the 2hbh stroke if I consciously add a bigger lag on some 2hbhs vs very little on some. That's just a matter of enough bigger lag reps. But no ... I think the 2hbh lag setting is one of those cases you can think about and do before you uncoil.

See my post above to @sredna42 ... posted video as an example of many ways to prep in pro 2hbhs.

 

[Power Player]

Good post. Yeah ... I'm pretty happy where I am after 3+ years ... only reason I am talking about racquet lag now. I put it off until I was happy with a non-lag 2hbh. Early on I always saw the bowed right hand wrist on the pros, and didn't understand it. Someone here posted "it's simply allowing the rh to drop". Grabbed the racquet with a 2hbh grip ... put it at the slot, and then just let the racquet head drop. Right wrist bowed ... and I had a good laugh.

I don't mind a little conscious "rh drop/lag" on the 2hbh. I think we do it earlier, and more manually than the FH lag, so not an apples to apples comparison. Obviously it all fades to muscle memory ... but I find no detriment to the 2hbh stroke if I consciously add a bigger lag on some 2hbhs vs very little on some. That's just a matter of enough bigger lag reps. But no ... I think the 2hbh lag setting is one of those cases you can think about and do before you uncoil.

See my post above to @sredna42 ... posted video as an example of many ways to prep in pro 2hbhs.

I saw that post and I think you are over thinking it. I am working with a really great coach and just telling you how they think. They don’t analyze every little detail. Look at Cillic’s backhand. Literally all 3 key points I posted on are done by him. The question is are you able to do those 3 things now without thinking about them? Thats what I was trying to tell you. No coach will ever tell you to set the lag or do anything that interrupts the flow of the shot.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I saw that post and I think you are over thinking it. I am working with a really great coach and just telling you how they think. They don’t analyze every little detail. Look at Cillic’s backhand. Literally all 3 key points I posted on are done by him. The question is are you able to do those 3 things now without thinking about them? Thats what I was trying to tell you. No coach will ever tell you to set the lag or do anything that interrupts the flow of the shot.

I would expect a coach to give big picture options so you know what you are working towards. If they didn’t make (or know) the distinction between a 2hbh with lag, and one without ... I wouldn’t hire them. But we are all different... coaches for horses/players. I don’t consider knowing about lags a lot of thinking ... but then I am super high IQ

 

[a12345]

We set the lag different in 2hbhs ... not from butt cap forward move. We set it earlier in 2hbhs.

Left arm doesn't take over (two arm swing), but becomes dominant by contact. How dominant, and when dominant depends on the pro. Agassi hit straight/straight at contact, and left arm probably became dominant nearer contact (definitely later than slot/lag set). For players like Hewitt with no/minimal lag ... left arm probably dominant right from slot. Venus to me ... looks like she is left arm dominant starting from racquet down and behind her. A lot of variations in pro 2hbhs.

From the starting position with your right arm stretched all the way back how do the arms get into the slot then?

As I see it youve got 2 other options.

1) From starting position, the left arm drops straight down, and the right arm is still perfectly straight back as racket goes into the slot. i.e the slot position is behind the body. If we are sideways on, the slot is to the left of your left leg.
2) The left hand pulls to the slot and hits out of the slot.

Either the right hand pulls to the slot, the left hand pulls to the slot, or neither pull to the slot and the slot is behind the body.

 

[Power Player]

I would expect a coach to give big picture options so you know what you are working towards. If they didn’t make (or know) the distinction between a 2hbh with lag, and one without ... I wouldn’t hire them. But we are all different... coaches for horses/players. I don’t consider knowing about lags a lot of thinking ... but then I am super high IQ

Well can you do the 3 steps I outlined in my first post without thinking or any issues? It's a rhythm. Are you able to hit all 3 points in a rhythm over and over? If not, whats the point in worrying about lag (which should come naturally if you do all 3 things)

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well can you do the 3 steps I outlined in my first post without thinking or any issues? It's a rhythm. Are you able to hit all 3 points in a rhythm over and over? If not, whats the point in worrying about lag (which should come naturally if you do all 3 things)

We agree on the rhythm trust it thing ... only way you will ever have a smooth reliable strke. I do think you missed a crucial piece of the timing in your list ... something you have to have down or the rest of it won't make up for it.

On closed weight transfer 2hbh with loop/drop (what we hit):
1) unit turn
2) step while racquet dropping/looping to slot
3) on after up on front leg, start the uncoiling

If 2hbh w/racquet lag ... add 4th
4) release racquet lag by contact.

I know from those early 2hbh sessions where I only hit closed stance ... probably the hardest thing to learn was that timing of getting to slot on front foot, and uncoiling in rhythm (swing before landing, or too delayed) ... and weak tea 2hbh. A coach, or another player can't teach you that. They could give you drills to hopefully make that lightbulb go off quicker ... but only you can finally "get it". I never had heard of the medicine ball drill at the time I started my DIY 2hbh ball machine sessions. If I started over now ... or was trying to teach someone the 2hbh ... I would try throwing a lightweight medicine ball from a closed stance and off front foot.

So here is where I'm at with 2hbh after 3+ years. I can hit a hopper of 40-50 ball machine balls ... and miss very few with a full 2hbh stroke that I am fairly pleased with. Good rhythm, solid pace and can hit decent topspin if I choose to (prefer a flatter drive ... just enjoy the way it feels). I can go drill from baselune, or do cc 2hbh ... still good to go. The problem is taking it to matches. First 1-2 years, I was reluctant to use it in singles matches, because I was playing with competitive friends who didn't want to waste the weekly singles match with me learning a stroke. That ... and 1hbh is good ... and I would win those matches with the slice, and lose with 2hbh (not bad 2hbh ... but slice was very low UE, 2hbh was a mixture of added offense and too much UE). Then ... 2hbh looked good enough to at least take off the bench in matches ... and lost most of a year of matches with two hamstring injuries. Finally played some casual singles last year with a lower level player ... and 2hbh held up as decent low UE stroke. Hardest thing was ros ... ball machine (at least mine) does nothing for ros against different players/serves.

So just now started playing some doubles matches again ... played today. I always play ad side to work on 2hbh cc ros. I played almost all of my competition doubles on the deuce side. I have to say I am finding grooving a 2hbh ros frustrating. I'm playing other seniors ... so no one is bombing serves. After all the 2hbh reps ... why in the hell can't I rip that slow pitch fricken serve like I can a groundstroke? Also ... same problem creeps in ... other three guys on the court don't want to watch you miss a lot of ros ... so out comes my bh slice. I am stubborn ... I will nail down the 2hbh ros if I get enough match hours ... but f day it pissed me off.

Edit: just thought of something I will try next doubles match. I have been sticking to open stance 2hbh ros ... because that is what the pros do, and I figure that prepares me for bigger serves if I ever faced them. The idea is limit the ros variables and get to one of those irritating 2hbh players that never miss their 2hbh ros. We had them on my last USTA team. But ... I have all the time in the world to get to closed stance against senior serves ... might be good to try and groove closed and then maybe come back to open later.

 

[Power Player]

Again you are over thinking. Thats why you cant hit it right. Way too much thought into something that must be simple to the mind. I just talked to the coach about it again and he said the same thing. Its a complicated stroke if you make it one. You have to be relaxed and smooth. Even your posts are all over the place here. How does that translate to the tennis court?

Dont worry about missing the backhand or what anyone thinks. Just relax and let the racquet drop and pull it through. I can guarantee you are forcing the shot and trying to steer the ball with your arms. You will have to learn to trust the frame. Once you get the basics down and trust the frame you can make little adjustments from there over time.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Again you are over thinking. Thats why you cant hit it right. Way too much thought into something that must be simple to the mind. I just talked to the coach about it again and he said the same thing. Its a complicated stroke if you make it one. You have to be relaxed and smooth. Even your posts are all over the place here. How does that translate to the tennis court?

Dont worry about missing the backhand or what anyone thinks. Just relax and let the racquet drop and pull it through. I can guarantee you are forcing the shot and trying to steer the ball with your arms. You will have to learn to trust the frame. Once you get the basics down and trust the frame you can make little adjustments from there over time.

OH!!! this was suppose to be Simple Tennis Tips/Instruction

 

[a12345]

Heres a simple rhythm exercise that will help to get that lag for you.

Hold the racket as you would for your 2HBH and have the racket completely vertical.

With the buttcap facing the ground imagine you are stirring a witches couldron making as big a circular motion as you can, with the racket remaining vertical.

This will help disconnect your shoulders from your body.

Now on one of the motions as you circle around, as you are stirring to the left of the pot, with your right arm all the way back - step into the shot and take your swing. Youll be able to swing very fast.

The disconnection between your upper body and torso will help you get that lag and whip through.

 

[a12345]

So heres some footage of Djokovic from behind which I think its important to see the lateral position of the racket which isnt as prevalent on side views.

We can try and analyse this and this is my view.

1) Ready position, shoulders facing 45 degrees backwards, right foot at 45 degrees forwards and hes stepping into the ball.

2) As his foot lands flat the right hand has pulled slightly and is bending. You can see the white background and in image 1 his right hand is on the edge of the white background, in image 2 is moved further to the left and bending.

3) The right hand is pulling further and bending more, the racket head is dropping and now you can see the hips are starting to turn.

4) image 4 is interesting as you can see here the left arm is starting to straighten, closing the racket face - this is where you get that slight "pushing down" on the racket with the straightening left arm.

5) This hips just about finish turning. Now the racekt is almost in the same position as forehand pat the dog position but just much lower. From here this is where the left arm takes over and swings. The lag has stored up energy here and about to release. This is the slot.

6) The body stops turning and the arms go forward, releasing the lag energy stored in the left arm.

So id summarise it like this:

Right foot lands > right arm pulls slightly as the hips begin to turn > racket dips > as its dipping you straighten the left arm and close the racket face > the hips finish turning > the left arm is now lagging behind loaded with energy > the left arm swings to contact and releases the stored energy forwards.

So its important to note there is a disconnect and segmentation between the turn of the hips and the swing of the arms/upper body which creates that lag effect.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Heres a simple rhythm exercise that will help to get that lag for you.

Hold the racket as you would for your 2HBH and have the racket completely vertical.

With the buttcap facing the ground imagine you are stirring a witches couldron making as big a circular motion as you can, with the racket remaining vertical.

This will help disconnect your shoulders from your body.

Now on one of the motions as you circle around, as you are stirring to the left of the pot, with your right arm all the way back - step into the shot and take your swing. Youll be able to swing very fast.

The disconnection between your upper body and torso will help you get that lag and whip through.

I have great rhythm, know how to set 2hbh lag, upper body is part of torso so shoulders are never disconnected from torso (unless you are talking about upper neck and head ... which pretty sure we want to keep connected).

The disconnection holy grail you seek is some arm independence from torso. It's the same observation from your "how to visualize the lag and whipping" thread. The difference with 2hbh is the torso rotation segment ends around chest pointing toward left net post, and it's the left arm (non-dom arm) that continues forward from shoulder for "arms segment". You should post video and pics of the pro 2hbh segments in your thread.

Head start on your "non-dom arm turned at shoulder contact point" pics :

 

[ByeByePoly]

So heres some footage of Djokovic from behind which I think its important to see the lateral position of the racket which isnt as prevalent on side views.

We can try and analyse this and this is my view.

1) Ready position, shoulders facing 45 degrees backwards, right foot at 45 degrees forwards and hes stepping into the ball.

2) As his foot lands flat the right hand has pulled slightly and is bending. You can see the white background and in image 1 his right hand is on the edge of the white background, in image 2 is moved further to the left and bending.

3) The right hand is pulling further and bending more, the racket head is dropping and now you can see the hips are starting to turn.

4) image 4 is interesting as you can see here the left arm is starting to straighten, closing the racket face - this is where you get that slight "pushing down" on the racket with the straightening left arm.

5) This hips just about finish turning. Now the racekt is almost in the same position as forehand pat the dog position but just much lower. From here this is where the left arm takes over and swings. The lag has stored up energy here and about to release.

6) The body stops turning and the arms go forward, releasing the lag energy stored in the left arm.

So id summarise it like this:

Right foot lands > right arm pulls slightly as the hips begin to turn > racket dips > as its dipping you straighten the left arm and close the racket face > the hips finish turning > the left arm is now lagging behind loaded with energy > the left arm swings to contact and releases the stored energy forwards.

So its important to note there is a disconnect and segmentation between the turn of the hips and the swing of the arms/upper body which creates that lag effect.

Love me some 2hbh pics from behind .... you can learn a lot ... good job grabbing the pics.

Let's just start with one of the most important things you got right ( ... I kid, just having fun ... what you got wrong at the bottom)

You made the distinction of left arm taking over at pic #5 and not pic #6 (the slot). Exactly right with these type of 2hbh swings ... left hand becomes dominant (still don't like your terminology left arm takes over ... like becomes dominant better ... discuss later). Left arm is still pretty relaxed at the slot ... and stays relaxed for a beat or two until around pic #5 and then in fires into contact with good extension. Not all 2hbhs are equal ... Venus ... IMO ... goes left hand dominant from the back of the backswing.

LOL ... I was typing the post above about the 2hbh version of your "strokes are segmented" ... and suggesting you post 2hbh discussion and pics and video in that thread. And then you included it in this post.

OK ... rather than going point by point in your other remarks, I will just tell you things as I see them, some are different than what you see:

- first thing to note is look at left foot in pic #2 ... off the ground ... no load bearing on left leg ... left hip was involved in the unit turn, but has NOTHING to do with the uncoiling. It's a step to the front foot carrying the unit turn to the front foot ... left hip DONE.

- so when we say "hips" on this stroke in the forward swing, we are talking about the right/dom hip. The line on his shorts on his left side is only relevant as far as indicating in rotation around his right hip.

- next question is when does Djoker start to rotate around the right hip ... I would say at the slot (pic #4). This is important so some more words here:

The exact moment rotation around right hip ... pic #3 or pic #4 isn't the key ... no doubt there are some small timing variations among pro 2hbhs. I would say the following is key on this point:

1) drop of arms/racquet to slot, and setting lag are all synchronized with the step and getting up on front leg. It's not ... drop and then step, and it's not step and then drop ... it's drop and set lag while stepping and getting on to front leg. I have looked at quite a few pro 2hbh video, and this is pretty universal across pro closed 2hbhs. I think it is major in smooth rhythm and power.
2) So until the slot (pic #4) ... either no, or no substantial hip or shoulder turn ... just very relaxed arms going down to slot setting lag. Note: there is no stored energy in the lag ... it just gets set with VERY relaxed arms, with no powering from shoulder rotation. Any stored energy/stretching (which I really don't buy much ... and certainly beyond rec 2hbhs imo) would be shoulders turned past hips in unit turn, and passed forward to right leg with the step. Then when the uncoiling/swing starts ... maybe you have some shoulder stretch beyond hips to release.
3) put this as a numbered item by itself ... there is no "hip turn first" followed by "shoulder turn". When rotation starts around that right hip, it's a full torso rotation including shoulders. If you have turned hips to their max, and then shoulders to their max past hips in your unit turn, then by definition there is no such thing as starting with just hip uncoiling ... the shoulders have to come with the hips.

So here is what happens ... it's not the right hand pulling ... or any Macci fh yank at the slot.

1) first part of the swing over the right hip rotation can be thought of as "shoulders plus upper arm" rotation. You have all the lower k-chain stuff making that happen ... but the delivery at Djokovic's initial swing forward in his shoulders and upper arms (the two arm unit being swung together .... as you said, left arm hasn't taken over yet). I put it this way, because Djokovic and power the hockey out of his torso (hips, core, shoulders) and still have very relaxed arms and hands clear up to pic #5 where the left arm needs to make some pretty active effort (if you want to call that not relaxed?). Djokovic's relaxed arms and hands just navigate to drop and set lag to his desired position at the slot ... you can look for a Macci butt cap yank until the cows come home .... Macci is selling bs on that one with the 2hbh. I will post a video at the end to make my case on that one ... since I hear in my head "Macci has taught pros and you are a rec player ... yada yada yada". Don't care ... like some of Macci's stuff ... don't like this one.

*** Sometimes with the pros the full lag is set at the slot, and other times, it's partially set and then goes to full lag immediately after forward swing starts. This is how I view it (and actually set the lag myself). NYTA said he did it the same way. To me ... it's like a waggle at the end of my loop at the slot. I just let the momentum of the racquet coming around at the slot with relaxed hands carry the rh around (and down if doing that on that shot). I don't hit a static stop point ... just continued momentum from waggling at slot immediately swinging forward. It would take video review to see if full lag has happened right before the hands go forward, or it completes to full lag (like many pros) immediately after hands start forward. In either case ... it is something completely different than the fh butt cap forward move that then sets the lag.

2) completing the swing ... Djokovic's left arm becomes dominant around pic #5 above.


OK ... if you are Macci want to stick with the 2hbh yank butt cap forward lag myth ... both of you should do this and video it and post it here:

Love this guy's video. Go to 09:00 in the video, and watch the drill he does for FH. Go do the same drill with the 2hbh ... video it and post it.

 

[a12345]

For me the the right hip already begins turning in picture 2. This right hip turn or left hip going round is what initiates the stroke. And it starts as the right foot hits the ground which makes sense.

Also the right hand does pull and out wide, to begin the racket drop and for the racket head point back to 4 oclock, but I think you over emphasise this "pull".

Its just a movement to get the racket into position. Its not a yank its more of a re-orientation of the buttcap which requires a pulling motion.

Now the reason why the right hand is doing this movement IMO and not just the left hand dropping is two fold:

1) If the right hand is pulling the racket into position that means the weight of the racket is in the right hand and the left hand is loose. If the left hand placed the racket head down youd find that the weight of the racket is in the left hand which we dont want to happen yet.

2) Part of the purpose of pulling with the right hand is to force the left wrist back and left forearm pronate backwards (or supinate). At the same time this is happening - the left arm straightens, as it straightens this further pushes the wrist back.

You can now feel a stretch in your left forearm, the left arm is almost locked straight, pushing down into the ground, the wrist is back, and the arm is supinated - its loaded ready to pronate, exactly like in a forearm slot position. The only difference is that youre holding the racket at the top of the handle instead of at the bottom.

 

[a12345]

Love me some 2hbh pics from behind .... you can learn a lot ... good job grabbing the pics.

Let's just start with one of the most important things you got right ( ... I kid, just having fun ... what you got wrong at the bottom)

You made the distinction of left arm taking over at pic #5 and not pic #6 (the slot). Exactly right with these type of 2hbh swings ... left hand becomes dominant (still don't like your terminology left arm takes over ... like becomes dominant better ... discuss later). Left arm is still pretty relaxed at the slot ... and stays relaxed for a beat or two until around pic #5 and then in fires into contact with good extension. Not all 2hbhs are equal ... Venus ... IMO ... goes left hand dominant from the back of the backswing.

LOL ... I was typing the post above about the 2hbh version of your "strokes are segmented" ... and suggesting you post 2hbh discussion and pics and video in that thread. And then you included it in this post.

OK ... rather than going point by point in your other remarks, I will just tell you things as I see them, some are different than what you see:

- first thing to note is look at left foot in pic #2 ... off the ground ... no load bearing on left leg ... left hip was involved in the unit turn, but has NOTHING to do with the uncoiling. It's a step to the front foot carrying the unit turn to the front foot ... left hip DONE.

- so when we say "hips" on this stroke in the forward swing, we are talking about the right/dom hip. The line on his shorts on his left side is only relevant as far as indicating in rotation around his right hip.

- next question is when does Djoker start to rotate around the right hip ... I would say at the slot (pic #4). This is important so some more words here:

The exact moment rotation around right hip ... pic #3 or pic #4 isn't the key ... no doubt there are some small timing variations among pro 2hbhs. I would say the following is key on this point:

1) drop of arms/racquet to slot, and setting lag are all synchronized with the step and getting up on front leg. It's not ... drop and then step, and it's not step and then drop ... it's drop and set lag while stepping and getting on to front leg. I have looked at quite a few pro 2hbh video, and this is pretty universal across pro closed 2hbhs. I think it is major in smooth rhythm and power.
2) So until the slot (pic #4) ... either no, or no substantial hip or shoulder turn ... just very relaxed arms going down to slot setting lag. Note: there is no stored energy in the lag ... it just gets set with VERY relaxed arms, with no powering from shoulder rotation. Any stored energy/stretching (which I really don't buy much ... and certainly beyond rec 2hbhs imo) would be shoulders turned past hips in unit turn, and passed forward to right leg with the step. Then when the uncoiling/swing starts ... maybe you have some shoulder stretch beyond hips to release.
3) put this as a numbered item by itself ... there is no "hip turn first" followed by "shoulder turn". When rotation starts around that right hip, it's a full torso rotation including shoulders. If you have turned hips to their max, and then shoulders to their max past hips in your unit turn, then by definition there is no such thing as starting with just hip uncoiling ... the shoulders have to come with the hips.

So here is what happens ... it's not the right hand pulling ... or any Macci fh yank at the slot.

1) first part of the swing over the right hip rotation can be thought of as "shoulders plus upper arm" rotation. You have all the lower k-chain stuff making that happen ... but the delivery at Djokovic's initial swing forward in his shoulders and upper arms (the two arm unit being swung together .... as you said, left arm hasn't taken over yet). I put it this way, because Djokovic and power the hockey out of his torso (hips, core, shoulders) and still have very relaxed arms and hands clear up to pic #5 where the left arm needs to make some pretty active effort (if you want to call that not relaxed?). Djokovic's relaxed arms and hands just navigate to drop and set lag to his desired position at the slot ... you can look for a Macci butt cap yank until the cows come home .... Macci is selling bs on that one with the 2hbh. I will post a video at the end to make my case on that one ... since I hear in my head "Macci has taught pros and you are a rec player ... yada yada yada". Don't care ... like some of Macci's stuff ... don't like this one.

*** Sometimes with the pros the full lag is set at the slot, and other times, it's partially set and then goes to full lag immediately after forward swing starts. This is how I view it (and actually set the lag myself). NYTA said he did it the same way. To me ... it's like a waggle at the end of my loop at the slot. I just let the momentum of the racquet coming around at the slot with relaxed hands carry the rh around (and down if doing that on that shot). I don't hit a static stop point ... just continued momentum from waggling at slot immediately swinging forward. It would take video review to see if full lag has happened right before the hands go forward, or it completes to full lag (like many pros) immediately after hands start forward. In either case ... it is something completely different than the fh butt cap forward move that then sets the lag.

2) completing the swing ... Djokovic's left arm becomes dominant around pic #5 above.


OK ... if you are Macci want to stick with the 2hbh yank butt cap forward lag myth ... both of you should do this and video it and post it here:

Love this guy's video. Go to 09:00 in the video, and watch the drill he does for FH. Go do the same drill with the 2hbh ... video it and post it.

For me the the right hip already begins turning in picture 2. This right hip turn or left hip going round is what initiates the stroke. And it starts as the right foot hits the ground which makes sense.

Also the right hand does pull and out wide, to begin the racket drop and for the racket head point back to 4 oclock, but I think you over emphasise this "pull".

Its just a movement to get the racket into position. Its not a yank its more of a re-orientation of the buttcap which requires a pulling motion.

Now the reason why the right hand is doing this movement IMO and not just the left hand dropping is two fold:

1) If the right hand is pulling the racket into position that means more of the weight of the racket is in the right hand and the left hand is loose. If the left hand placed the racket head down youd find that the weight of the racket is in the left hand which we dont want to happen yet.

2) Part of the purpose of pulling with the right hand is to force the left wrist back and left forearm pronate backwards (or supinate). At the same time this is happening - the left arm straightens, as it straightens this further pushes the left wrist back.

You can now feel a stretch in your left forearm, the left arm is almost locked straight, pushing down into the ground, the wrist is back, and the arm is supinated - its loaded ready to pronate, exactly like in a forearm slot position. The only difference is that youre holding the racket at the top of the handle instead of at the bottom.

Now we could skip all of this if we took the right hand completely off the handle from the beginning - we could simply do an ATP left handed forehand. And in an ATP forehand you use the weight of the racket along with your body rotation to force the wrist backwards and arm to supinate. But given you have a right hand on the handle you can use this to your advantage to artificially leverage this tension into the left forearm and wrist.

 

[Kobble]

Last time I practice I tried experimenting with straightening the left arm actively. Seems like my avergae power or heavyness went up, but I can't say I was hitting my very .best shots doing that. I get more woosh in shadow swings by a bit, but its not translating on court as much. WIthout videoing it, I can't tell if I am not applying like I do I shadows, so not sure.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Last time I practice I tried experimenting with straightening the left arm actively. Seems like my avergae power or heavyness went up, but I can't say I was hitting my very .best shots doing that. I get more woosh in shadow swings by a bit, but its not translating on court as much. WIthout videoing it, I can't tell if I am not applying like I do I shadows, so not sure.

If I remember your 2hbh stroke ... you it straight left arm at contact. Those of us that do this ... at least those that have a bent left arm at backswing, have to actively straighten our left arm ... right? It's not momentum sending it straight ... it would be happy to stay bent. I think we all pretty much just straighten our left arm going into slot.

 

[Kobble]

If I remember your 2hbh stroke ... you it straight left arm at contact. Those of us that do this ... at least those that have a bent left arm at backswing, have to actively straighten our left arm ... right? It's not momentum sending it straight ... it would be happy to stay bent. I think we all pretty much just straighten our left arm going into slot.

Before it felt like momentum was doing it, this time I actively contracted the tricep more. I have to see what works best. Normally, I am almost straight at impact.

 

[ByeByePoly]

For me the the right hip already begins turning in picture 2. This right hip turn or left hip going round is what initiates the stroke. And it starts as the right foot hits the ground which makes sense.

Yes ... I call it land and spin (I think of right hip as a lazy susan. I think that is the key ... taking momentum of any step into the spin. That said ... I have to find that video of Djoker barely stepping and ripping the cr@p out of a 2hbh. I can't see much rotation from pic 2-4 ... so maybe it starts at #2.

Also the right hand does pull and out wide, to begin the racket drop and for the racket head point back to 4 oclock, but I think you over emphasise this "pull".

From pic #3 to pic #4 he sets the lag, and starts his swing out to the ball. The lag in pic #4 was not set because of a fh-like butt cap forward move. It was set because he allowed/made the rh drop ... no movement of hand out required. We can just agree to disagree here, because we aren't getting anywhere.

Its just a movement to get the racket into position. Its not a yank its more of a re-orientation of the buttcap which requires a pulling motion.

No ... dropping rh and pulling racquet back actively points butt cap to ball in 2hbh. 2hbh lag is actively set ... fh lag is passively set (so they say).

Now the reason why the right hand is doing this movement IMO and not just the left hand dropping is two fold:

The right hand is doing this because he is swinging out to the ball. It's really a arm movement ... hand is just attached.

1) If the right hand is pulling the racket into position that means more of the weight of the racket is in the right hand and the left hand is loose. If the left hand placed the racket head down youd find that the weight of the racket is in the left hand which we dont want to happen yet.

Weight of racquet is supported mainly with right arm/hand the entire stroke ... at least a Djokovic type 2hbh. Left arm is power boost and guides swing path. Left arm very active on low to high topspin strokes. I think it's the right/dom arm/hand that controls rf ... but there is debate on that.

2) Part of the purpose of pulling with the right hand is to force the left wrist back and left forearm pronate backwards (or supinate). At the same time this is happening - the left arm straightens, as it straightens this further pushes the left wrist back.

No ... these hand positions are just a result of dropping the racquet head and pulling racquet head back from forearm line. Hold racquet straight away from you with 2hbh grip. Now drop rh below hand, but keep racquet in line with forearm. The right/dom hand bows, the left hand stays neutral. Now pull racquet back from forearm line while rh still down ... left hand extension. That all it is on 2hbh ... setting lag actively with loose wrists simultaneously while reaching slot ... doesn't matter if final max lag completes right after. FH is completely different ... watch Fed fh @00:11 below ... if you think that is happening with 2hbh ... let's just agree to disagree.

You can now feel a stretch in your left forearm, the left arm is almost locked straight, pushing down into the ground, the wrist is back, and the arm is supinated

I just have a very relaxed left arm straightening to slot position ... very relaxed wrists ... rh drop and back set right hand bow and left hand extension. I'm not pushing down to ground ... arms and hand are guiding racquet to slot w/lag. Locking ... heck no ... 2hbh has to be relaxed EVERYTHING ... and as you said ... left arm/hand becomes dominant only at pic #5.

- its loaded ready to pronate, exactly like in a forearm slot position. The only difference is that youre holding the racket at the top of the handle instead of at the bottom.

Nope ... not a lhfh ... it's a 2hbh with two arms and two hands on the grip ... requires different method to set lag.

Now we could skip all of this if we took the right hand completely off the handle from the beginning - we could simply do an ATP left handed forehand. And in an ATP forehand you use the weight of the racket along with your body rotation to force the wrist backwards and arm to supinate. But given you have a right hand on the handle you can use this to your advantage to artificially leverage this tension into the left forearm and wrist.

Exactly ... if 2hbh is a lhfh ... who in their right mind would want to hit a choked up fh with another 8-10lb arm attached. Just hit a lhfh gripping racquet near butt cap and get that right hand the heck off the grip. I mean ... do we ever think on FH ... hey ... I should choke up and put my left hand on the grip near the butt cap.

Will check in later ...

 

[ByeByePoly]

Before it felt like momentum was doing it, this time I actively contracted the tricep more. I have to see what works best. Normally, I am almost straight at impact.

If momentum did it, no one would hit bent arm fhs or 2hbhs ... all arms would extend by contact.

 

[a12345]

Last time I practice I tried experimenting with straightening the left arm actively. Seems like my avergae power or heavyness went up, but I can't say I was hitting my very .best shots doing that. I get more woosh in shadow swings by a bit, but its not translating on court as much. WIthout videoing it, I can't tell if I am not applying like I do I shadows, so not sure.

The straightening of the left arm stretches the forearm muscles and cocks the wrist back. Its now loaded read to pronate. As you swing to contact you should get more topspin.

It loads the arm to pronate which creates more topspin rather than power. The power will come from elsewhere i.e the shoulder turn.

 

[a12345]

For me the the right hip already begins turning in picture 2. This right hip turn or left hip going round is what initiates the stroke. And it starts as the right foot hits the ground which makes sense.

Yes ... I call it land and spin (I think of right hip as a lazy susan. I think that is the key ... taking momentum of any step into the spin. That said ... I have to find that video of Djoker barely stepping and ripping the cr@p out of a 2hbh. I can't see much rotation from pic 2-4 ... so maybe it starts at #2.

Also the right hand does pull and out wide, to begin the racket drop and for the racket head point back to 4 oclock, but I think you over emphasise this "pull".

From pic #3 to pic #4 he sets the lag, and starts his swing out to the ball. The lag in pic #4 was not set because of a fh-like butt cap forward move. It was set because he allowed/made the rh drop ... no movement of hand out required. We can just agree to disagree here, because we aren't getting anywhere.

Its just a movement to get the racket into position. Its not a yank its more of a re-orientation of the buttcap which requires a pulling motion.

No ... dropping rh and pulling racquet back actively points butt cap to ball in 2hbh. 2hbh lag is actively set ... fh lag is passively set (so they say).

Now the reason why the right hand is doing this movement IMO and not just the left hand dropping is two fold:

The right hand is doing this because he is swinging out to the ball. It's really a arm movement ... hand is just attached.

1) If the right hand is pulling the racket into position that means more of the weight of the racket is in the right hand and the left hand is loose. If the left hand placed the racket head down youd find that the weight of the racket is in the left hand which we dont want to happen yet.

Weight of racquet is supported mainly with right arm/hand the entire stroke ... at least a Djokovic type 2hbh. Left arm is power boost and guides swing path. Left arm very active on low to high topspin strokes. I think it's the right/dom arm/hand that controls rf ... but there is debate on that.

2) Part of the purpose of pulling with the right hand is to force the left wrist back and left forearm pronate backwards (or supinate). At the same time this is happening - the left arm straightens, as it straightens this further pushes the left wrist back.

No ... these hand positions are just a result of dropping the racquet head and pulling racquet head back from forearm line. Hold racquet straight away from you with 2hbh grip. Now drop rh below hand, but keep racquet in line with forearm. The right/dom hand bows, the left hand stays neutral. Now pull racquet back from forearm line while rh still down ... left hand extension. That all it is on 2hbh ... setting lag actively with loose wrists simultaneously while reaching slot ... doesn't matter if final max lag completes right after. FH is completely different ... watch Fed fh @00:11 below ... if you think that is happening with 2hbh ... let's just agree to disagree.

You can now feel a stretch in your left forearm, the left arm is almost locked straight, pushing down into the ground, the wrist is back, and the arm is supinated

I just have a very relaxed left arm straightening to slot position ... very relaxed wrists ... rh drop and back set right hand bow and left hand extension. I'm not pushing down to ground ... arms and hand are guiding racquet to slot w/lag. Locking ... heck no ... 2hbh has to be relaxed EVERYTHING ... and as you said ... left arm/hand becomes dominant only at pic #5.

- its loaded ready to pronate, exactly like in a forearm slot position. The only difference is that youre holding the racket at the top of the handle instead of at the bottom.

Nope ... not a lhfh ... it's a 2hbh with two arms and two hands on the grip ... requires different method to set lag.

Now we could skip all of this if we took the right hand completely off the handle from the beginning - we could simply do an ATP left handed forehand. And in an ATP forehand you use the weight of the racket along with your body rotation to force the wrist backwards and arm to supinate. But given you have a right hand on the handle you can use this to your advantage to artificially leverage this tension into the left forearm and wrist.

Exactly ... if 2hbh is a lhfh ... who in their right mind would want to hit a choked up fh with another 8-10lb arm attached. Just hit a lhfh gripping racquet near butt cap and get that right hand the heck off the grip. I mean ... do we ever think on FH ... hey ... I should choke up and put my left hand on the grip near the butt cap.

Will check in later ...

The right hand is doing this because he is swinging out to the ball. It's really a arm movement ... hand is just attached.

Same difference. The hand moves, because the arm moves, because the shoulder joint moves. Either way its pulling.

Weight of racquet is supported mainly with right arm/hand the entire stroke

If you agree that the weight of the racket is supported by the right arm, (for me its only up to the slot) - how does the racket get into the slot.

You cant just say the racket head drops - something must happen to make it drop, how does it drop, in particular if the weight it is in the right arm. If you say well the right wrist just relaxes to let it fall, you have to remember your left arm is on the racket, relaxing the right wrist to let if fall is not sufficient - so the left arm would need to place it down (which it helps to do as it straightens).


A 3rd reason why its the right arm pulling when it goes into the slot as well is because the racket is moving forwards as it drops down. When youre coiled back and your arm is stretched back your arms are behind the hip, as they go into the slot they go forwards in line with the hip, in front of the left leg.

At the coiled/ready position with the butt cap facing forwards (at whatever angle), both hands on the racket, and the racket is moving forwards, this is a pull. If you dont like the idea of the hand pulling, well we can think of it as the hand is connected to the arm which is connected to the shoulders. So its the shoulder pulling, basically releasing from being stretched all the way back.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The right hand is doing this because he is swinging out to the ball. It's really a arm movement ... hand is just attached.

Same difference. The hand moves, because the arm moves, because the shoulder joint moves. Either way its pulling.

Weight of racquet is supported mainly with right arm/hand the entire stroke

If you agree that the weight of the racket is supported by the right arm, (for me its only up to the slot) - how does the racket get into the slot.

You cant just say the racket head drops - something must happen to make it drop, how does it drop, in particular if the weight it is in the right arm. If you say well the right wrist just relaxes to let it fall, you have to remember your left arm is on the racket, relaxing the right wrist to let if fall is not sufficient - so the left arm would need to place it down (which it helps to do as it straightens).


A 3rd reason why its the right arm pulling when it goes into the slot as well is because the racket is moving forwards as it drops down. When youre coiled back and your arm is stretched back your arms are behind the hip, as they go into the slot they go forwards in line with the hip, in front of the left leg.

At the coiled/ready position with the butt cap facing forwards (at whatever angle), both hands on the racket, and the racket is moving forwards, this is a pull. If you dont like the idea of the hand pulling, well we can think of it as the hand is connected to the arm which is connected to the shoulders. So its the shoulder pulling, basically releasing from being stretched all the way back.

FYI ... I spent a lot of time looking at pro 2hbh video trying to see how they were setting the lag. I was fresh off a lot of discussions about the ATP flip fh (I was trying to learn it). I just assumed it was the same as fh ... butt cap forward sent racquet behind hand ... yada yada yada. That is not what I found ... the pros were coming as close they could to the fh lag ... but it required an active set by the hands rather than passive fh move. In my 2hbh ... it's a very relaxed "active" ... have to add very little the hands. The racquet is coming down and around from the loop, so with very little tension in the wrist the rh easily goes past the forearm line and below the hand. Time this with the forward swing ... and it's a very smooth lag set and release.

Let's just agree to disagree ... I don't agree the forward move of hand sets the 2hbh lag.

In my video review, I found Ferrer's 2hbh the most informative. His hands never move forward or out before he sets full lag. I think all pros are basically doing this ... with some finishing max lag right after hands start forward.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@a12345

Didn't remember discussing this before ... several here supported your view ... looks like me and Dan R see it the same. I think deleted member 23235 is NYTA ... a very informed opinion.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/2-handed-backhand-wrist-lag.620338/

Not familiar with this instructor ... but seems his observation is correct ... can set lag before or during with 2hbh.

If you ever played golf ... in my 2hbh it just feels like a waggle right before I swing forward.

 

[a12345]

FYI ... I spent a lot of time looking at pro 2hbh video trying to see how they were setting the lag. I was fresh off a lot of discussions about the ATP flip fh (I was trying to learn it). I just assumed it was the same as fh ... butt cap forward sent racquet behind hand ... yada yada yada. That is not what I found ... the pros were coming as close they could to the fh lag ... but it required an active set by the hands rather than passive fh move. In my 2hbh ... it's a very relaxed "active" ... have to add very little the hands. The racquet is coming down and around from the loop, so with very little tension in the wrist the rh easily goes past the forearm line and below the hand. Time this with the forward swing ... and it's a very smooth lag set and release.

Let's just agree to disagree ... I don't agree the forward move of hand sets the 2hbh lag.

In my video review, I found Ferrer's 2hbh the most informative. His hands never move forward or out before he sets full lag. I think all pros are basically doing this ... with some finishing max lag right after hands start forward.

We can look at the next phase then which for me would be

a) where is the slot on a horizontal basis (length of court) and
b) where is it on a lateral basis (width of court)

Because from the slot its the beginning of the swing to contact so it all important to get this consistent as possible so that were always setup and swinging from a consistent point.

From what I see on the horizontal basis the right hand is in line with left hip in front of the left leg.

In terms of lateral movement, the racket starts out wide (arms elevated), and it gets brought in when going to the loading, then slot position, the arms go in close to the body, its kind of an out-in movement, (whilst the swing from the slot would be back out again).

So at the slot the arms are brought in close to the body. How close? The critical measure for me is that the left elbow stays slightly in front of the hitting side of the body so that it doesn't get jammed behind the left waist. Right hand just under waist height, left hand mid thigh.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Will continue later ... pro 2hbhs vary so much you will have a hard time with "rules/givens".

 

[Kobble]

The straightening of the left arm stretches the forearm muscles and cocks the wrist back. Its now loaded read to pronate. As you swing to contact you should get more topspin.

It loads the arm to pronate which creates more topspin rather than power. The power will come from elsewhere i.e the shoulder turn.

I actually creates maximum lag as my left arm is bent. From there, my left arm gradually straightens as I square up to contact. Agassi and Safin have the left arm straightening more so before the reach maximum wrist lag. I wonder if I can get more juice and topspin if I straighten earlier, or will I just be creating more low to high (more topspin).

 

[Power Player]

Reach your right hand into your pocket. Thats the feeling you want. The rest you will develop with reps on the court.

 

[a12345]

I actually creates maximum lag as my left arm is bent. From there, my left arm gradually straightens as I square up to contact. Agassi and Safin have the left arm straightening more so before the reach maximum wrist lag. I wonder if I can get more juice and topspin if I straighten earlier, or will I just be creating more low to high (more topspin).

I see, youre straightening as you swing to contact. The left arm should already straighten as the racket head goes down into the slot. The straightening is what should help bring the racket into the slot position in the first place.

In terms of getting power and lag, the key for me is that you must ensure that in the ready position the right arm is as far back as possible so that you can feel a stretch at the back of your right shoulder. You must feel this stretch and it really is important. Without it, the shot doesnt work very well at all.

This is a muscle stretch being created in the shoulder and is like pulling back an elastic band.

Now as you pull into the slot with your arms, and then out to contact, this is effectively releasing the stretch that was created in the shoulder.

And in a manner ByeBye Poly would prefer to view it, the pull of the hands/arms forward is effectively done by the shoulder - and youve just released this from its stretched back position.

If you dont have this stretch you lose that elastic effect. Note you can still hit a hard shot from pure torso rotation. But as Rick Macci would put it - youre not getting anything for free - you miss out on this easy elastic effect, thats almost effortless.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I see, youre straightening as you swing to contact. The left arm should already straighten as the racket head goes down into the slot. The straightening is what should help bring the racket into the slot position in the first place.

In terms of getting power and lag, the key for me is that you must ensure that in the ready position the right arm is as far back as possible so that you can feel a stretch at the back of your right shoulder. You must feel this stretch and it really is important. Without it, the shot doesnt work very well at all.

This is a muscle stretch being created in the shoulder and is like pulling back an elastic band.

Now as you pull into the slot with your arms, and then out to contact, this is effectively releasing the stretch that was created in the shoulder.

And in a manner ByeBye Poly would prefer to view it, the pull of the hands/arms forward is effectively done by the shoulder - and youve just released this from its stretched back position.

If you dont have this stretch you lose that elastic effect. Note you can still hit a hard shot from pure torso rotation. But as Rick Macci would put it - youre not getting anything for free - you miss out on this easy elastic effect, thats almost effortless.

Yes ... probably if we reviewed pro "non-dom straight at contact" pro 2hbhs .. non-dom arm would almost always be straight by slot. It would be interesting to check.

I go for max unit turn where you feel that stretch in dom shoulder/back when going for max pace, but short of that for most rally balls. I can hit enough pace without pegging it at max, and it's more comfortable. Not positive what you mean by "ready position" , but if you mean initial dom arm position at unit turn, the dom arm isn't providing that back stretch ... the shoulder rotation is. I know this because I found the Djokovic straight right arm unit turn uncomfortable. Then I saw Cilic accomplish same thing by maxing/pegging his unit turn with bent arms. He then immediately straightens his dom arm as it drops to slot. I find that an equal unit turn ... but more relaxed and comfortable.

I actually don't put much stock in any of the elastic aided rhs ... but I think any added shoulder rotation range of motion is major. So if you turn your shoulders a bit more to stretch ... more shoulder turn range of motion. Same with hip rotation, and then shoulders past hips ... longer range of motion for shoulders to rotate. If a rec player gets some stretch/elastic assist ... go for it ... just not much of a thing to me.

 

[a12345]

Yes ... probably if we reviewed pro "non-dom straight at contact" pro 2hbhs .. non-dom arm would almost always be straight by slot. It would be interesting to check.

I go for max unit turn where you feel that stretch in dom shoulder/back when going for max pace, but short of that for most rally balls. I can hit enough pace without pegging it at max, and it's more comfortable. Not positive what you mean by "ready position" , but if you mean initial dom arm position at unit turn, the dom arm isn't providing that back stretch ... the shoulder rotation is. I know this because I found the Djokovic straight right arm unit turn uncomfortable. Then I saw Cilic accomplish same thing by maxing/pegging his unit turn with bent arms. He then immediately straightens his dom arm as it drops to slot. I find that an equal unit turn ... but more relaxed and comfortable.

I actually don't put much stock in any of the elastic aided rhs ... but I think any added shoulder rotation range of motion is major. So if you turn your shoulders a bit more to stretch ... more shoulder turn range of motion. Same with hip rotation, and then shoulders past hips ... longer range of motion for shoulders to rotate. If a rec player gets some stretch/elastic assist ... go for it ... just not much of a thing to me.

This is the ready position. The right arm is straight, the left arm is slightly bent.

But youre not just turned, the right arm is being pushed by the shoulder so that its as far back as it can go. You will feel a stretch in the back of the right shoulder. So its like youre reaching for something behind you.

And its very important that the right arm is not just back - its really is being forced back as far as it can go until you feel the stretch. If you dont feel an extreme stretch in the back of the right shoulder - youre not pushing it far back enough.

This is like pulling back on an elastic band.

Now when you release the shoulder/"pull with the right arm", however you want to define it, it will sling through, first to the slot and then from the slot to contact.

When you combine this elastic band effect along with the hip rotation, and with straightening of the left arm to bring the racket into the slot, this will cause the racket head to flip back briefly ( in the picture its pointing at 6 o'clock, the flip will point the racket at 5 o'clock or 4 o'clock at the slot), which is the lag.

The racket head almost bounces. It jerks over to 5 o'clock and then rebounds the other way as you swing from the slot to contact.

 

[Kobble]

I see, youre straightening as you swing to contact. The left arm should already straighten as the racket head goes down into the slot. The straightening is what should help bring the racket into the slot position in the first place.

In terms of getting power and lag, the key for me is that you must ensure that in the ready position the right arm is as far back as possible so that you can feel a stretch at the back of your right shoulder. You must feel this stretch and it really is important. Without it, the shot doesnt work very well at all.

This is a muscle stretch being created in the shoulder and is like pulling back an elastic band.

Now as you pull into the slot with your arms, and then out to contact, this is effectively releasing the stretch that was created in the shoulder.

And in a manner ByeBye Poly would prefer to view it, the pull of the hands/arms forward is effectively done by the shoulder - and youve just released this from its stretched back position.

If you dont have this stretch you lose that elastic effect. Note you can still hit a hard shot from pure torso rotation. But as Rick Macci would put it - youre not getting anything for free - you miss out on this easy elastic effect, thats almost effortless.

My right arm is straight from start to contact. I am going to experiment and see if I can get more out of it.

 

[a12345]

My right arm is straight from start to contact. I am going to experiment and see if I can get more out of it.

At the start (ready position) it should be right arm straight , left arm bent. At the slot both arms are straight. At contact the left arm is straight the right arm is bent.

They basically change around.

 

[ByeByePoly]

This is the ready position. The right arm is straight, the left arm is slightly bent.

But youre not just turned, the right arm is being pushed by the shoulder so that its as far back as it can go. You will feel a stretch in the back of the right shoulder. So its like youre reaching for something behind you.

And its very important that the right arm is not just back - its really is being forced back as far as it can go until you feel the stretch. If you dont feel an extreme stretch in the back of the right shoulder - youre not pushing it far back enough.

This is like pulling back on an elastic band.

Now when you release the shoulder/"pull with the right arm", however you want to define it, it will sling through, first to the slot and then from the slot to contact.

When you combine this elastic band effect along, the hip rotation and with straightening of the left hand to bring the racket into the slot, this will cause the racket head to flip back briefly ( in the picture its pointing at 6 o'clock, the flip will point the racket at 5 o'clock or 4 o'clock), which is the lag.

The racket head almost bounces. It jerks over to 5 o'clock and then rebounds the other way as you swing from the slot to contact.

No sling to slot ... just a nice casual relaxed trip to slot. It's why all the stuff before slot doesn't matter much. If Djokovic 's "ready position" offered 1% advantage, every pro 2hbh would look just like it ... they play for a lot of $.

Cilic ready position with bent right arm, then he straightens right as it drops ... his unit turn stretch was just fine in pic #1:

More ready positions:

 

[a12345]

No sling to slot ... just a nice casual relaxed trip to slot. It's why all the stuff before slot doesn't matter much. If Djokovic 's "ready position" offered 1% advantage, every pro 2hbh would look just like it ... they play for a lot of $.

Cilic ready position with bent right arm, then he straightens right as it drops ... his unit turn stretch was just fine in pic #1:

More ready positions:

The 2nd photo of Cilic is the ready position. The 1st photo hes moving into the ready position.

The last photo just looks weak.

Zverev has his shoulder pushing back. He has bent arms but his shoulder its pushing back. He has a separation angle between his arms/shoulder and his torso.

You cannot say from this video hes not getting his right arm all the way back beyond the turn of his body. As he releases his right shoulder/right arm forwards, it slings through.

 

[a12345]

In fact do you know how you can tell if the right arm is being pushed all the way back rather than just relaxed?

When you do it, your right shoulder will get hunched forwards and towards your chin. You can try it for yourself in the mirror, and you can see it in the photos.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The 2nd photo of Cilic is the ready position. The 1st photo hes moving into the ready position.

The last photo just looks weak.

Zverev has his shoulder pushing back. He has bent arms but his shoulder its pushing back. He has a separation angle between his arms/shoulder and his torso.

You cannot say from this video hes not getting his arms all the way back beyond the turn of his body. As he releases his right shoulder/right arm forwards, it slings through.

Jeeze ... you are slippery

I was responding to this from you:

"
This is the ready position. The right arm is straight, the left arm is slightly bent.

But youre not just turned, the right arm is being pushed by the shoulder so that its as far back as it can go. You will feel a stretch in the back of the right shoulder. So its like youre reaching for something behind you. "

That's why I asked what you meant by "ready position". The Djoker pic is the position he is in right when he unit turns back ... top of backswing. My pics of Cilic, Zverev, Safin and Keys was their initil unit turn. I would think most would think of that as the "ready position" ... not one after some initial racquet drop.

My point was/is ... full unit turn with stretch if you prefer has nothing to do with arm positions during that initial unit turn with racquet/arms at their top. I can let both my arms hang down by my sides in take a full hip + shoulder unit turn.

This came up when several of us were trying to pic a pro to model or 2hbh after, and the discussion of chicken wing arms (bent arms) in the take back came up. Many of us liked Fognini's straighter arm takeback at moderate height. The initial thought was straghter arms takeback was a technically superior technique. Well ... then you watch a Zverev 2hbh and a Zverev and it was pretty obvious that both arms bent in take back was not only bad, but could be used in two of the best 2hbhs on the tour. I did pretty good with both arms fairly straight like Fognini ... stroke looks good that way. But both arms bent makes for a very simple and very relaxed unit turn, so I just wait and extend both arms going to slot. The bent arms unit turn max is exactly the same as straighter arms in initial unit turn. The one aid the straighter arms take back offered is less chance of an abbreviated unit turn ... lazy habits was more obvious with extended arms.

 

[ByeByePoly]

In fact do you know how you can tell if the right arm is being pushed all the way back rather than just relaxed?

When you do it, your right shoulder will get hunched forwards and towards your chin. You can try it for yourself in the mirror, and you can see it in the photos.

You want shoulders turned all the way, not arms ... I don't get this "pushing your arms all the way back". The Zverev unit turn pic speaks for itself. His arms don't get straight (some flex) until he drops racquet to about waist level. All relaxed extending while dropping. Everything before slot is totally relaxed arms ... no rhs acceleration.

Shoulder under chin is just standard unit turn ... you can do it with arms hanging down by your sides.