2hbh ... I now think arm snap, not hands/wrist snap ... DOH!!!

If you guys want to learn to hit the 2 handler properly, do a cross court drill with a coach or skilled partner - you start in the middle and he hits to your backhand wide..you run to it and hit it crosscourt and then get back to the middle. Do it over and over until fatigue. The goal is to get properly spaced from the ball and make contact out in front. It’s the only way you will be able to hit the ball back over to the crosscourt side. All the little nuances you are focused on will sort themselves out if you do the drill properly under a watchful eye.
 
Power Player said:
If you guys want to learn to hit the 2 handler properly, do a cross court drill with a coach or skilled partner - you start in the middle and he hits to your backhand wide..you run to it and hit it crosscourt and then get back to the middle. Do it over and over until fatigue. The goal is to get properly spaced from the ball and make contact out in front. It’s the only way you will be able to hit the ball back over to the crosscourt side. All the little nuances you are focused on will sort themselves out if you do the drill properly under a watchful eye.
Click to expand...

You are under-thinking everything. 8-B
 
ByeByePoly said:
You want shoulders turned all the way, not arms ... I don't get this "pushing your arms all the way back". The Zverev unit turn pic speaks for itself. His arms don't get straight (some flex) until he drops racquet to about waist level. All relaxed extending while dropping. Everything before slot is totally relaxed arms ... no rhs acceleration.

Shoulder under chin is just standard unit turn ... you can do it with arms hanging down by your sides.
Click to expand...

If you just turn your shoulders around and do not push your right arm all the way back (the arm is being pushed by the shoulder, arm is connected to the shoulder), your hands will still be in the middle of your chest.

The right arm goes behind the line of the hip and beyond the line of the left side of the body. Maybe slightly less so if your arm is bent.

To put it crudely if your didnt push your right arm back and had a fairly low ready position your hands would start by your balls.

Lets say you stand side on completely perpendicular to the court. Your hands will be in the middle of the chest if you didnt push the right arm back - now reach the right arm as far back as it can go without turning the chest like youre grabbing something from the back fence. This is your shoulder pushing your arm back to do this.

If you reach far enough you should feel a stretch at the back of your right shoulder and this is loading the shoulder/arm however you want to define it, when you release this it will sling through.
 
Also bear in mind, whether your arm is straight or bent is done by your elbow.

Whether your right arm is pushed back is done by the shoulder.
 
a12345 said:
If you just turn your shoulders around and do not push your right arm all the way back (the arm is being pushed by the shoulder, arm is connected to the shoulder), your hands will still be in the middle of your chest.

The right arm goes behind the line of the hip and beyond the line of the left side of the body. Maybe slightly less so if your arm is bent.

To put it crudely if your didnt push your right arm back and had a fairly low ready position your hands would start by your balls.

Lets say you stand side on completely perpendicular to the court. Your hands will be in the middle of the chest if you didnt push the right arm back - now reach the right arm as far back as it can go without turning the chest like youre grabbing something from the back fence. This is your shoulder pushing your arm back to do this.

If you reach far enough you should feel a stretch at the back of your right shoulder and this is loading the shoulder/arm however you want to define it, when you release this it will sling through.
Click to expand...

My post was clear above ... nothing in it said don't extend your arms back. Slippery!!!
 
a12345 said:
Would do you mean slippery. You said I dont get what you mean by pushing the arms all the way back and im clarifying what I mean for you.
Click to expand...

Not "ready position"

R95dN2mm.jpg


Ready position:

0RawcTjm.jpg


:eek::eek::eek:

 

The shot from Serena at 15 seconds is a good example of using the right shoulder stretch and release.

The reason why this is a particular good example as shes chasing this wider ball is

a) shes in open stance
b) her hips are forward theres no coiling
c) as she hits the shot her body does not turn.

If she did not stretch the right arm all the way back to create the elastic band effect you would only be able to scoop the ball.

Without that stretch nothing about that shot should have any power.
 
a12345 said:

The shot from Serena at 15 seconds is a good example of using the right shoulder stretch and release.

The reason why this is a particular good example as shes chasing this wider ball is

a) shes in open stance
b) her hips are forward theres no coiling
c) as she hits the shot her body does not turn.

If she did not stretch the right arm all the way back to create the elastic band effect you would only be able to scoop the ball.

Without that stretch nothing about that shot should have any power.
Click to expand...

With stretched tendons and a Macci butt cap yank ... the 2hbh sky is the limit!!!
 
ByeByePoly said:
Sure ... you will have a lethal weapon you don't understand ... like a wife. :love:
Click to expand...

Bud, you are the one writing novels on the internet trying to figure out what you are doing, not me. Im simply telling you what i have learned from really great players who would blow you off the court.

A lot of nuances you are obsessed with happen naturally if you are moving and focused on hitting the ball out in front. Thats why told you about the crosscourt drill. But you just brushed it off and keep making jokes about it. I get it. Its a lot easier to crank out super long posts instead of going out there and moving your feet for 90 minutes.

Its funny to me how you microanalyze pros strokes without realizing how they actually developed them in the first place. One of the main ways they actually develop their swing is first from creating proper spacing that works for them. It’s very personal due to body type and mechanics so analyzing all their takebacks and trying to find a magic formula is futile.
 
Last edited:
Power Player said:
Bud, you are the one writing novels on the internet trying to figure out what you are doing, not me. Im simply telling you what i have learned from really great players who would blow you off the court.

A lot of nuances you are obsessed with happen naturally if you are moving and focused on hitting the ball out in front. Thats why told you about the crosscourt drill. But you just brushed it off and keep making jokes about it. I get it. Its a lot easier to crank out super long posts instead of going out there and moving your feet for 90 minutes.

Its funny to me how you microanalyze pros strokes without realizing how they actually developed them in the first place.
Click to expand...

Hang on ttw friend ... you are making some wrong assumptions here. I have been doing 2hbh ball machine, drills when I can find players wanting to, matches when not injured for 3+ years.

I’m not trying to learn how to hit a 2hbh in this thread ... I have one.

My OP premise was simple ... no novel or deep analysis:

1) I think we do more active racquet release with 2hbh than we do with the fh
2) I now think that “more active” is mainly arms ... I used to think it was active hands/wrists
3) discuss

That’s all it was intended to be ... and I posted this after 3 years of 2hbh development... not at the start of 2hbh development like you seem to assume.

The other stuff was just replying to posts ... very hard to keep a thread on topic here.

The “dude would wipe you off the court” stuff is pointless ... the ideas/concepts I present are either valid or not ... debate the ideas.
 
ByeByePoly said:
Hang on ttw friend ... you are making some wrong assumptions here. I have been doing 2hbh ball machine, drills when I can find players wanting to, matches when not injured for 3+ years.

I’m not trying to learn how to hit a 2hbh in this thread ... I have one.

My OP premise was simple ... no novel or deep analysis:

1) I think we do more active racquet release with 2hbh than we do with the fh
2) I now think that “more active” is mainly arms ... I used to think it was active hands/wrists
3) discuss

That’s all it was intended to be ... and I posted this after 3 years of 2hbh development... not at the start of 2hbh development like you seem to assume.

The other stuff was just replying to posts ... very hard to keep a thread on topic here.

The “dude would wipe you off the court” stuff is pointless ... the ideas/concepts I present are either valid or not ... debate the ideas.
Click to expand...

Ball machine is not going to cut it. I debated your ideas multiple times and you just respond with some short quip that means nothing.

The point is that everything you are so focused on happens as a result of your positioning on the court. So studying how a guy’s arms look or how he drops the racquet is not going to result in an a-ha moment. They developed all of that from working on real drills that develop their timing and spacing. From there they learn to feel the ball, and in doing so they developed their swing paths.

Just because you started on a 2hander 3years ago doesn’t mean you have the foundation to hit the balls like the pros you are studying. That’s really not that long ago anyway.

And no, its not pointless to tell you I am working with players who are excellent and can hit the ball like you are trying to do. There is a huge point - they have already accomplished what you are trying to do and they share with me how they did it. And then when I tell you, dismiss it in 2 sentences and resume writing paragraphs of detail on how bent a guys arms are in a still shot.
 
Power Player said:
Ball machine is not going to cut it. I debated your ideas multiple times and you just respond with some short quip that means nothing.

The point is that everything you are so focused on happens as a result of your positioning on the court. So studying how a guy’s arms look or how he drops the racquet is not going to result in an a-ha moment. They developed all of that from working on real drills that develop their timing and spacing. From there they learn to feel the ball, and in doing so they developed their swing paths.

Just because you started on a 2hander 3years ago doesn’t mean you have the foundation to hit the balls like the pros you are studying. That’s really not that long ago anyway.

And no, its not pointless to tell you I am working with players who are excellent and can hit the ball like you are trying to do. There is a huge point - they have already accomplished what you are trying to do and they share with me how they did it. And then when I tell you, dismiss it in 2 sentences and resume writing paragraphs of detail on how bent a guys arms are in a still shot.
Click to expand...

No ... you did not debate my OP premise ... you listed "the only 3 things that matter" ... and proclaimed the rest a waste of time. That is not a debate.

"The point is that everything you are so focused on happens as a result of your positioning on the court."

That's nuts. This thread was about 2hbh racquet lag. Hewitt has great "court positioning" and hits no racquet lag. Djokovic has great "court positioning", and has big 2hbh racquet lag.

There are many that share your belief that trying to understand/discuss strokes is a waste of time. I obviously disagree, but have noted many believe that. The part that continues to confuse me is why anyone with that belief is on ttw in the tips and techniques forum. I ask politely ... what do you get from this forum to make it worth your time? Why would you care if some of us discuss strokes?

Question for you ... at contact on your 2hbh, do you hit with straight left arm?
 
This was good 2hbh instruction imo ... but in particular, watch @02:25. He shows setting the 2hbh racquet lag with arm roll ... I think that is right. Dom arm pronates ... which allows arms to roll other direction into contact (and as @Dan R says ... leverage from arms switching top and bottom positions).

 
ByeByePoly said:
No ... you did not debate my OP premise ... you listed "the only 3 things that matter" ... and proclaimed the rest a waste of time. That is not a debate.

"The point is that everything you are so focused on happens as a result of your positioning on the court."

That's nuts. This thread was about 2hbh racquet lag. Hewitt has great "court positioning" and hits no racquet lag. Djokovic has great "court positioning", and has big 2hbh racquet lag.

There are many that share your belief that trying to understand/discuss strokes is a waste of time. I obviously disagree, but have noted many believe that. The part that continues to confuse me is why anyone with that belief is on ttw in the tips and techniques forum. I ask politely ... what do you get from this forum to make it worth your time? Why would you care if some of us discuss strokes?

Question for you ... at contact on your 2hbh, do you hit with straight left arm?
Click to expand...

Discuss what you want, but I guarantee you wont get any closer to hitting the backhand like the guys you are studying. If you want to get better you need to see the big picture, which you continue to ignore.

Discussing strokes is cool, but you simply don’t see them the right way so you are obsessed with if arms are straight or bent.

Again, this is a spacing question. You have to find your spacing for the 2hbh and THAT determines how your arms are for the shot. We have different length bodies so it is not the same for everyone.

My left arm is slightly bent at contact if I had to guess. But I dont consciously think about that. I just want to hit the ball in front with proper spacing. If I am hitting long, I try and get under the ball more to fix it. If it is still not jiving, I focus on just feeling the ball off my strings and rolling it back over the net.

Thats the way you want to think about this stuff. Very simple and easy thoughts. If you have the right strokes you will not be able to think about how straight your arm is at contact because thats out of your control. What you can control is spacing and setup. If you are trying to control how your arm is at contact you are doing it wrong.
 
Power Player said:
Discuss what you want, but I guarantee you wont get any closer to hitting the backhand like the guys you are studying. If you want to get better you need to see the big picture, which you continue to ignore.

Discussing strokes is cool, but you simply don’t see them the right way so you are obsessed with if arms are straight or bent.

Again, this is a spacing question. You have to find your spacing for the 2hbh and THAT determines how your arms are for the shot. We have different length bodies so it is not the same for everyone.

My left arm is slightly bent at contact if I had to guess. But I dont consciously think about that. I just want to hit the ball in front with proper spacing. If I am hitting long, I try and get under the ball more to fix it. If it is still not jiving, I focus on just feeling the ball off my strings and rolling it back over the net.

Thats the way you want to think about this stuff. Very simple and easy thoughts. If you have the right strokes you will not be able to think about how straight your arm is at contact because thats out of your control. What you can control is spacing and setup. If you are trying to control how your arm is at contact you are doing it wrong.
Click to expand...

"Discuss what you want, but I guarantee you wont get any closer to hitting the backhand like the guys you are studying. If you want to get better you need to see the big picture, which you continue to ignore. "

I'm not going to get better ... I am a 61 year old ex-4.5 singles tournament player ... I only get worse from here. :cry:

But that reminds me ... would my past 4.5 singles state ranking, or my number of 4.5 tournament wins have anything to do with my observations on strokes here being valid or not? I would say no ... unless I was talking about tactics, and then I would say yes.

Players learn differently, some or more technical than others. I never once discussed strokes for 40 years before here, and did quite well. I know what wins, and what doesn't ... and it's not how pretty the strokes are. It's also not how well you do in drill with your coach.

Yeah ... have to disagree on the ball machine. It was priceless learning the 2hbh stroke for me. No one would think that was all you needed to develop a match-ready stroke... but those initial thousands of reps was priceless.

One last point ... my guess is most would not end up with a straight left arm at contact on 2hbhs unless you consciously learned it that way. If you don't think arm positions at contact matter, than no worries ... never need to care. I wanted a left arm straight at contact going in ... so I learned it that way.

Good luck ... hope you have a great tennis career.
 
ByeByePoly said:
"Discuss what you want, but I guarantee you wont get any closer to hitting the backhand like the guys you are studying. If you want to get better you need to see the big picture, which you continue to ignore. "

I'm not going to get better ... I am a 61 year old ex-4.5 singles tournament player ... I only get worse from here. :cry:

But that reminds me ... would my past 4.5 singles state ranking, or my number of 4.5 tournament wins have anything to do with my observations on strokes here being valid or not? I would say no ... unless I was talking about tactics, and then I would say yes.

Players learn differently, some or more technical than others. I never once discussed strokes for 40 years before here, and did quite well. I know what wins, and what doesn't ... and it's not how pretty the strokes are. It's also not how well you do in drill with your coach.

Yeah ... have to disagree on the ball machine. It was priceless learning the 2hbh stroke for me. No one would think that was all you needed to develop a match-ready stroke... but those initial thousands of reps was priceless.

One last point ... my guess is most would not end up with a straight left arm at contact on 2hbhs unless you consciously learned it that way. If you don't think arm positions at contact matter, than no worries ... never need to care. I wanted a left arm straight at contact going in ... so I learned it that way.

Good luck ... hope you have a great tennis career.
Click to expand...

You are the guy making the thread and asking advice and then when anyone posts what they found works you argue it and are combative about it. I think you ignored the other guy and now you have been dismissive of me because I didn’t indulge you in your mass detail analysis.

So now at this point you are just talking to yourself and this is basically your own blog. A past singles rating of 4.5 should mean that you know a lot of the stuff I am saying already since I’m not exactly stating unconventional truths. It would also mean that you should probably have enough tennis contacts that you could call and drill with. It should definitely mean that you know that a ball machine is not a substitute for live hitting. Ball machines are cool, but almost everyone cheats on them with their footwork because they know where the ball is going.

But yeah, 61. I get it. It’s tough to move fast at 61 I am sure. But you are analyzing the strokes of guys who are elite movers. Their arm positions are a result of their movement and setup to the ball. You will have to figure out what yours is. No ball machine will show you that.

The best older plays I know slice a lot off of their backhand when they know they can’t get to the ball in time to set their balance and spacing. But some of them still can move very well and have big shots and they are older than you, so you can do it as well (barring injury of course).

The main thing is that the last thing you need to worry about is your arms position because you can’t control it. I did not consciously learn to hit the ball with a straight arm. You are wrong. I learned the proper spacing to the ball for me, and that is what determined my arm position. I already said that.

But on here, there is an obsession with studying what goes on above the waist while ignoring that everything that happens below is what caused it in the first place.
 
Power Player said:
You are the guy making the thread and asking advice and then when anyone posts what they found works you argue it and are combative about it. I think you ignored the other guy and now you have been dismissive of me because I didn’t indulge you in your mass detail analysis.

So now at this point you are just talking to yourself and this is basically your own blog. A past singles rating of 4.5 should mean that you know a lot of the stuff I am saying already since I’m not exactly stating unconventional truths. It would also mean that you should probably have enough tennis contacts that you could call and drill with. It should definitely mean that you know that a ball machine is not a substitute for live hitting. Ball machines are cool, but almost everyone cheats on them with their footwork because they know where the ball is going.

But yeah, 61. I get it. It’s tough to move fast at 61 I am sure. But you are analyzing the strokes of guys who are elite movers. Their arm positions are a result of their movement and setup to the ball. You will have to figure out what yours is. No ball machine will show you that.

The best older plays I know slice a lot off of their backhand when they know they can’t get to the ball in time to set their balance and spacing. But some of them still can move very well and have big shots and they are older than you, so you can do it as well (barring injury of course).

The main thing is that the last thing you need to worry about is your arms position because you can’t control it. I did not consciously learn to hit the ball with a straight arm. You are wrong. I learned the proper spacing to the ball for me, and that is what determined my arm position. I already said that.

But on here, there is an obsession with studying what goes on above the waist while ignoring that everything that happens below is what caused it in the first place.
Click to expand...

We should just move on ... but a final point of clarification:

"You are the guy making the thread and asking advice"

That is part of our problem in this thread ... I did NOT ask for advice. I was posting an observation I had about "actively" releasing 2hbh racquet lag ... seeing if anyone had a similar thought/experience. You offered advice on 2hbh fundamentals ... always love to discuss that, but not relevant to 2hbh "active arms OR Not".

"Their arm positions are a result of their movement and setup to the ball."

I disagree ... I can use my arms differently in 2hbh unit turn for exact same stance and spacing. I can unit turn back with both arms pretty straight like Djoker and Fognini, or bent arms like Zverev and Cilic, or even pendulum back like Simon with exact same stance and spacing. Your spacing calculation is based on contact (how far out front, and arm positions at contact ... Agassi needed to be further from the ball with his straight/straight at contact than Venus bent/bent at contact. If you are hitting a bent left arm at 2hbh contact, and switch to straight left arm at contact ... you will need to setup slightly further from the ball (or hit it more in front). Your arm positions at contact dictated that. We do not accept bent left arm because we didn't allow enough space.

No below the waist stuff makes you lag with 2hbh ... we do that with our brain, arms and hands.

Cheers ... nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. (y)
 
ByeByePoly said:
With stretched tendons and a Macci butt cap yank ... the 2hbh sky is the limit!!!
Click to expand...

Heres an article i've found that explains it all in very good detail.

https://www.tenniswithouttalent.com/2HBHTS.html

Here the slot is known as the "load". The racket head doesnt just go down, it goes down and back (pointing to 5 o'clock), thats what the lag is, like a little trampoline effect. Here it says it is the racket head resisting forward acceleration that causes it to lag and flip back. It doesnt just drop down, it goes down and flips back, stretching the forearm muscles to load them.

"The load begins the acceleration of the racket, and it is the inertia of the racket head resisting that acceleration that contorts the forearm muscles into their stretch-shortened state. "

And what ive been saying regarding pushing the right arm back to stretch the back of the right shoulder muscles :

"The reach-back that occurs in the pose phase of the 2HBH is unique. The purpose, I believe, is to involve the deep shoulder joint of the hitting arm in the stroke. The purpose is to add to the raw power of the stroke which, as I have said, is at best less than awesome. By pulling the deep shoulder muscles back, you have the opportunity to enlist them in the massive acceleration effort that comes during the load phase. "

So you reach back as far as you can > then let it go during the load (lag/slot) phase, this causes acceleration forwards > which when the racket head resists this forward inertia, flips back (pointing to 5 o'clock).
 
Last edited:
First time seeing this grease pig contest. Aren't these poor piglets being terrorized for these people's entertainment?
 
This tip from the article is quite interesting to add extra power.

"Finally, but importantly, there is a subtle rolling motion of the shoulder. You prepare for it in the lock phase with a dropping of the forward shoulder that makes you look and feel like you are “leaning into the shot”. During the load, the forward shoulder begins below the level of the rear shoulder. As the load progresses, the shoulders level out. This rotation is a small but quick and powerful movement that contributes to the amplitude of the power wave enhancing both power and control "

You do see Murray and Djokovic lean in and almost rock in a pendulum motion during their shots.
 
Once I heard from a former ITF who is trying to help me out on my stroke, the first thing he told me is that to improve your stroke the first thing is to stop thinking about stroke, because you will never get to a higher level if you think that way. The right (or rather the effective way) way to think about is always about the movement, placement, positioning and contact point. And that requires actually hitting the wall, going out and do drills etc.

I don’t fully agree with that statement but I do understand where it is coming from.

Back to this thread, in my understanding, wrist snapping would not really help since it is simply discussed outside the context of what you are trying to do and what kind of ball is being received.

To be more effective, where you want to hit, how you want to hit, and what ball is being received are all very important to bring up when discussing stroke technique like this. Otherwise you will always get very high level vague and useless answers
 
pencilcheck said:
Once I heard from a former ITF who is trying to help me out on my stroke, the first thing he told me is that to improve your stroke the first thing is to stop thinking about stroke, because you will never get to a higher level if you think that way. The right (or rather the effective way) way to think about is always about the movement, placement, positioning and contact point. And that requires actually hitting the wall, going out and do drills etc.

I don’t fully agree with that statement but I do understand where it is coming from.

Back to this thread, in my understanding, wrist snapping would not really help since it is simply discussed outside the context of what you are trying to do and what kind of ball is being received.

To be more effective, where you want to hit, how you want to hit, and what ball is being received are all very important to bring up when discussing stroke technique like this. Otherwise you will always get very high level vague and useless answers
Click to expand...

I think you need to think about each stroke from a technical standpoint first, else you wouldnt know what to do. Because there are different ways to hit a shot, and doing things the same way but better isnt going to change things.

e.g imagine if you never pronated on the serve, didnt know how to, didnt know you had to, and just practiced and practiced never pronating. Youre just improving a flawed serve. The same applies to other shots.

You need to know what to do first and then practice it, or youre just practising the wrong things, at worse ingraining incorrect techniques.
 
a12345 said:
I think you need to think about each stroke from a technical standpoint first, else you wouldnt know what to do. Because there are different ways to hit a shot, and doing things the same way but better isnt going to change things.

e.g imagine if you never pronated on the serve, didnt know how to, didnt know you had to, and just practiced and practiced never pronating. Youre just improving a flawed serve. The same applies to other shots.

You need to know what to do first and then practice it, or youre just practising the wrong things, at worse ingraining incorrect techniques.
Click to expand...

(y)
 
This thread went OT from my intended discussion/observation. I added an edit to OP (bolded at top of OP) ... which I think would have helped, although that might have just left me and @Dan R talking to ourselves. 8-B I will try and remember to narrow the context in the future when discussing specific components of strokes. Many are not interested in such details or think it's a waste of time. Fair enough ... I think a "detail discussion to follow" disclaimer at the top should help prevent the opposing tribes 8-B from butting heads as much. It's just tennis ... and discussing tennis ... all should be for fun. (y)
 
ByeByePoly said:
This thread went OT from my intended discussion/observation. I added an edit to OP (bolded at top of OP) ... which I think would have helped, although that might have just left me and @Dan R talking to ourselves. 8-B I will try and remember to narrow the context in the future when discussing specific components of strokes. Many are not interested in such details or think it's a waste of time. Fair enough ... I think a "detail discussion to follow" disclaimer at the top should help prevent the opposing tribes 8-B from butting heads as much. It's just tennis ... and discussing tennis ... all should be for fun. (y)
Click to expand...
I don’t think some people here are deviating, i think maybe it wasn’t being communicated well since tennis is kinda of personal sport and everyone is different (also tennis equipment changes that exp too)

Tennis is also an old sport (been for around a long time) there are many people who had similar discussion in the past, but it doesn’t seems like people discuss racquet dropping that much, that must be a reason right? Instead a lot of them always show footwork placement and drills such as medicine ball instead?

But regardless, this is an open forum I guess you can’t stop people from saying what they understand about the topic
 
pencilcheck said:
I don’t think some people here are deviating, i think maybe it wasn’t being communicated well since tennis is kinda of personal sport and everyone is different (also tennis equipment changes that exp too)

Tennis is also an old sport (been for around a long time) there are many people who had similar discussion in the past, but it doesn’t seems like people discuss racquet dropping that much, that must be a reason right? Instead a lot of them always show footwork placement and drills such as medicine ball instead?

But regardless, this is an open forum I guess you can’t stop people from saying what they understand about the topic
Click to expand...

My thought wasn't "stopping anyone" ... I am often 8-B guilty of hijacking a thread with OT comments. I was just thinking a good OP declaration might be good ... "detail stroke discussion to follow ... look away if not your thing". (y)
 
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