2hbh ... I now think arm snap, not hands/wrist snap ... DOH!!!

[ByeByePoly]

EDIT: This thread went OT from the intended discussion, so I am coming back and adding this context to this OP. It goes without saying quality repeatable strokes require good movement, footwork, stances, spacing, unit turn, etc. Assume for this discussion, all of those were perfect/great on a 2hbh, and you ended up at a 2hbh slot with racquet lag (look down in this post ... Djokovic pic #1 is an example). This OP/discussion is only about the 2hbh stroke from that racquet lagged slot position to contact. The discussion is for players that hit a 2hbh with racquet lag and believe we have flexibility in the use of our arms/hands going into contact. We know we have flexibility ... because we feel different active arms/hands effort depending on the shot. If you don't hit with racquet lag, or care to know if you hit racquet lag, or you don't vary from shot to shot, or believe you shouldn't think about strokes ... this thread isn't intended for you. Cheers ... may all your 2hbhs be awesome.

I have been saying lately on some 2hbh, I know I get extra rhs/mph with an active snap near contact. It's not something I do on most rally balls, but just something extra available, like when you turn your shoulders to their max (uncomfortable limit). I have been viewing this as active hands/wrist with very loose wrists. Not anymore ... I now think it's active arms which simply works the two hands on the grip as a lever.

The following video is when it hit me ... which is ironic because he (Nick) doesn't specifically talk about this. Watch 2:50 - 6:30 ... the key point to watch is the bowing (flexion) of the right wrist in the slot, and the release to neutral (or near neutral) by contact. I was well aware of that ... it's how I/we get lag. I was also well aware that the dom hand (my right hand) is back to neutral at contact. So on most of my 2hbhs, it's just a natural release from lag to contact in a controlled manner. BUT ... we have control with two hands to influence that lever release (not saying that is a good idea for a rec player, just explaining what I think I now understand ... until I don't again ). So for example ... a player can control when he releases that lag ... Djoker is able to do that crazy late (sick). I think that just means easy rhs by contact. I also think you can apply "active" release ... release faster than it would have. In my mind, I was simply using the hands together to whip the racquet through a little quicker. It hit me watching the video below that all of the release is around the dom hand (right) ... even though the hands work together. So the mechanism of the non-dom arm/hand firing into contact is in effect ... pushing/releasing the racquet around the arm/hand. I know for a fact I'm not doing anything active with the right hand ... so that challenges the entire idea of "active hands". I now think what we actually do is vary our arm "active" in a 2hbh for different outcomes ... the hands are just along for the ride. I think what happens when I actively snap more ... is a push a bit more with left arm than usual, and "possibly" slow down/resist with right arm/hand to increase the whip.

Be curious what other 2hbh players think.

Watch @2:50 - 6:30

Pros common bowed dom hand, and release to neutral by contact.

 

[DavaiMarat]

Are you talking about the 'stretch'? in the 2HBH? I think what you are trying to generate is the result of the hips opening up before the shoulders and arms come thru. This creates the wrist lag in the same way it does on the forehand. The real trick is to have a very loose grip so there is some play in the racquet. Those photos are deceiving because they are still shots in a very quick motion. They are not actively 'slapping' the ball with their wrists or driving the frame down to the racquet hard in the dropped position, the position of their hands in relation to their body is relative the same thru the hitting zone (with a slight lifting motion). The power comes from elastic potential energy stored between the shoulders and the hips.

Open the hips before the shoulders, the hips will carry the shoulders thru and the shoulder will drive your arms/hands Keep the whole unit loose except a slight squeeze on contact. The power is between the hips/shoulders. Doesn't hurt to open your front toe a bit to allow easier hip rotation.

Hope this helps,

DavaiMarat

 

[ByeByePoly]

Are you talking about the 'stretch'? in the 2HBH? I think what you are trying to generate is the result of the hips opening up before the shoulders and arms come thru. This creates the wrist lag in the same way it does on the forehand. The real trick is to have a very loose grip so there is some play in the racquet. Those photos are deceiving because they are still shots in a very quick motion. They are not actively 'slapping' the ball with their wrists or driving the frame down to the racquet hard in the dropped position, the position of their hands in relation to their body is relative the same thru the hitting zone (with a slight lifting motion). The power comes from elastic potential energy stored between the shoulders and the hips.

Open the hips before the shoulders, the hips will carry the shoulders thru and the shoulder will drive your arms/hands Keep the whole unit loose except a slight squeeze on contact. The power is between the hips/shoulders. Doesn't hurt to open your front toe a bit to allow easier hip rotation.

Hope this helps,

DavaiMarat

No ... my post had nothing to do with hips, stretch ... or claiming pros were slapping. I had made comments latley that I have found good results lstely with extra pace on the ball when I did what felt like an active snap of the hands with loose wrist. Not saying anyone should do that ... just describing the result in extra pace I get doing it.

This post was solely about my new thought is it's actually active arms (edit: which accelerates the racquet releasing around the dom hand) ... not active hand movement that is the cause of the late "extra" snap.

I have a couple of disagreements (different opinion) from your post. For one, most of the pros just set their lag at the backswing/slot ... nothing like a Fed FH where unit turn and hand starts forward before racquet goes into trailing lag behind hand. What Djokovic, Nishikori, Ferrer slow motion, or frame by frame ... lag is set before shoulder turn rotates forward, or immediately after. I set mine right at bottom of loop before shoulder turn starts forward. Murray seems to have the most delay in setting the lag.

You can't talk about 2hbh hips usuage generically. Are you talking about closed weight transfer 2hbh ((Djokovic pics above) or back leg semi open 2hbh (Murray pics above)? Djoker 's entire torso including shoulders rotate around right hip. He lands on right leg already fully unit turned with shoulder separation beyond hip. As he steps, racquet loops down to slot, and he sets racquet lag. He doesn't swing (from slot) until he is on the right leg. At that point everything rotates above right hip together at once ... no hip first.

A semi open back leg 2hbh shares much with semi open back leg FH .. except the racquet lag getting set from butt cap forward dragging racquet back. Murray seems to have some rotation before setting lag, but even in his case, it wasn't momentum setting that bowed right hand racquet lag.

It's one of the reasons I love the 2hbh over the FH ... the pros just set the lag ... no need for "racquet gets magically dragged back debates".

Momentum didn't create this:

 

[ByeByePoly]

Active arms:

 

[aimr75]

I find I set the lag by actively dropping the racquet with the arms at the end of the take back. It’s a conscious thing and not as a result of rotation during the forward swing into the ball.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I find I set the lag by actively dropping the racquet with the arms at the end of the take back. It’s a conscious thing and not as a result of rotation during the forward swing into the ball.

Yes ... exactly. I did a lot of pro 2hbh video review when I got around to adding 2hbh lag. I purposely avoided it at first, had my two hands full learning the 2hbh without it. As I started trying to add it, I was hearing set 2hbh racquet lag same as fh from hand moving forward. I didn't see that in the pro 2hbhs ... it was always before hands started forward, or at the same time (Nadal above). To me the pro 2hbhs do not match the fh flip, but Nadal comes closer than others I looked at.

I was comparing notes with NYTA, and we both felt we took advantage of the racquet dropping from the loop, and just continued to lag right before swinging from the slot. I know it was a conscious active movement for me at first, now it's not a conscious thought.

 

[aimr75]

Yes ... exactly. I did a lot of pro 2hbh video review when I got around to adding 2hbh lag. I purposely avoided it at first, had my two hands full learning the 2hbh without it. As I started trying to add it, I was hearing set 2hbh racquet lag same as fh from hand moving forward. I didn't see that in the pro 2hbhs ... it was always before hands started forward, or at the same time (Nadal above). To me the pro 2hbhs do not match the fh flip, but Nadal comes closer than others I looked at.

I was comparing notes with NYTA, and we both felt we took advantage of the racquet dropping from the loop, and just continued to lag right before swinging from the slot. I know it was a conscious active movement for me at first, now it's not a conscious thought.

Yeah Its not just a left hand forehand where fh principles just apply. Its a different stroke for me. Here is how I try and drop it in the slot before the forward swing:

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yeah Its not just a left hand forehand where fh principles just apply. Its a different stroke for me. Here is how I try and drop it in the slot before the forward swing:

I don't think of it as a lh fh either. Good looking 2hbh.

 

[ptuanminh]

I play my BH as a mirror of my FH. The right hand only supports the left hand. Some occasions when i really need it, the right hand helps a bit to create more spin. Other than that, no wrist involved.
What you are saying is really complicated, i dont understand.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I play my BH as a mirror of my FH. The right hand only supports the left hand. Some occasions when i really need it, the right hand helps a bit to create more spin. Other than that, no wrist involved.
What you are saying is really complicated, i dont understand.

I will try and remember to comment more tomorrow. Your fh doesn't have another 8+ lb arm hanging on to the racquet ... not likely a very good mirror. In case I forget to post again, the main point of this thread is on 2hbhs with racquet lag, that lag is being released around the dominant hand. The two arms and hands are working together, but the release is around dom hand, non-dom arm assisting in that release to varying degrees.

 

[Kobble]

I keep the wrists loose and the right wrist bows. My lag starts with the lower body turn first. I still try to look for easier ways to get more out of it, but it gets hard to imagine you can hit it much better than Agassi or Safin. I clearly need to improve hitting the drive backhand from the more open stance. That is why I focus more on my forehand, there are so many avenues to improve, and you can't afford to lose cross-court forehand rallies consistently.

Bowed wrist and lag


Lag unwinds and left arm straightens

 

[ByeByePoly]

I keep the wrists loose and the right wrist bows. My lag starts with the lower body turn first. I still try to look for easier ways to get more out of it, but it gets hard to imagine you can hit it much better than Agassi or Safin. I clearly need to improve hitting the drive backhand from the more open stance. That is why I focus more on my forehand, there are so many avenues to improve, and you can't afford to lose cross-court forehand rallies consistently.

Bowed wrist and lag


Lag unwinds and left arm straightens

That's a fine "bow" Mr Kobble . I assume on some (or maybe this stroke in a different frame) also drops the racquet head lower than the hand. Yes, I have decided my left arm straightening is part of the "assisst" of releasing the racquet lag around that bowed right hand.

We need the frames before pic #1, or the video. We are talking about "when" we set the racquet lag, not at what point we release it.

I will make the following bets with you on your closed stance 2hbh above:

1) you are manually timing the lag set with your initial rotation forward .... you use your arms and hands to set the lag, it doesn't get set later from momentum like the FH flip
2) your hips and shoulders starting rotating forward at the same time over/around that right hip

 

[Power Player]

I find I set the lag by actively dropping the racquet with the arms at the end of the take back. It’s a conscious thing and not as a result of rotation during the forward swing into the ball.

I do the same. I was using an eastern grip with my left hand for a few years , but it just does not feel natural, so now I am using the same SW grip I use on my right hand. I mainly just make sure to drop the racquet under the ball and I think about it when I warm up, so it’s automatic in a match. The SW grip gives me the confidence to follow through all the way, since I get more spin to pull the ball down into the court with that grip.

There is a drill some coaches will do where you start with the racquet dropped down and just focus on swinging low to high. It’s a good way for someone to learn the feel of the swingpath. I’m really using my core to get the racquet popping up from that drop, just like a FH stroke.

 

[aimr75]

I do the same. I was using an eastern grip with my left hand for a few years , but it just does not feel natural, so now I am using the same SW grip I use on my right hand. I mainly just make sure to drop the racquet under the ball and I think about it when I warm up, so it’s automatic in a match. The SW grip gives me the confidence to follow through all the way, since I get more spin to pull the ball down into the court with that grip.

There is a drill some coaches will do where you start with the racquet dropped down and just focus on swinging low to high. It’s a good way for someone to learn the feel of the swingpath. I’m really using my core to get the racquet popping up from that drop, just like a FH stroke.

That drill sounds like a good way to get the feel and the sequencing of positions.

I am currently using an eastern for the left hand. I have tried SW but never gave it a proper go. I recall not feeling I could extend through the ball as much. I might try it again next time I’m out as I could always use more spin with the bh.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@aimr75 @Power Player

Just tried the drill (shadow swing) with racquet down and lagged. I really liked it when a just stood with all my weight on right leg (no step, just stood on it) in a fully hip+shoulder unit turn. It seemed to isolate the post step (weight shift sequence). I could have used that during the "learn to lag" phase.

Power P ... I like the statement of powering from core vs the hip stuff ... core strong, hip not so much ... and core to me sounds like entire torso rotation which is what happens.

I am not changing from cont/east ... has felt totally natural from the start (even those early days launching into the fence ). I have found I can change left hand to sw without much trouble, but changing right/dom hand from cont to bh east is a disaster.

 

[Kobble]

I will make the following bets with you on your closed stance 2hbh above:

1) you are manually timing the lag set with your initial rotation forward .... you use your arms and hands to set the lag, it doesn't get set later from momentum like the FH flip
2) your hips and shoulders starting rotating forward at the same time over/around that right hip

1) You can say I partially set it on the back swing, but the racquet goes back simultaneously as I turn into it to maximize wrist **** and lag. After that, the left arm straightens.

2) That is hard to say. For me the sequence of legs >hips > shoulders can vary. The left leg pushes and the hips and shoulders turn forward just before maximum lag in the picture backhand. I was also hitting with an eastern-easter grip there, which alters my mechanics a bit. The common denominator in all my shot is the hips and shoulder rotate before maximum lag.

 

[Power Player]

@aimr75 @Power Player

Just tried the drill (shadow swing) with racquet down and lagged. I really liked it when a just stood with all my weight on right leg (no step, just stood on it) in a fully hip+shoulder unit turn. It seemed to isolate the post step (weight shift sequence). I could have used that during the "learn to lag" phase.

Power P ... I like the statement of powering from core vs the hip stuff ... core strong, hip not so much ... and core to me sounds like entire torso rotation which is what happens.

I am not changing from cont/east ... has felt totally natural from the start (even those early days launching into the fence ). I have found I can change left hand to sw without much trouble, but changing right/dom hand from cont to bh east is a disaster.

Yeah, I wouldn't change grips if I was you. That's just something I had to do to get my swing more aggressive and consistent.

 

[DavaiMarat]

Though I can see where your coming from but if that was the case why wouldn’t everyone hit their 2hbh like Gille Simon. From my experience in my back swing I let my arms and racquet drop thru gravity to around my waist and as it falls around my pocket I explode by opening my hip/torso. This causes the ‘flip’ where my and arms had shoulders are rotating into the ball while racquet head is still going backwards causing it to jerk forward like a whip. My hands are lifting but not arming the ball. The Simon method only is useful to me when I have little time (like a return of serve). In this case I’m actively drop and the only backswing is with the torso and arms moving forward.

Hey I’m not saying what you’re doing is wrong. Whatever works for you that’s fine. I just don’t experience it the same way. Funny I use to think like you. Call it a Chang 2hbh curse. Then I was told by a Spanish coach to let the arms drop naturally and pop the hips. Bamm backhand power was effortless and no weird off balance (ala Serena) half gallop around the court. I could really feel the racquet being we’ll sling shotted for lack of a better term. My racquet was still dropping because the opposing forces forced the head down. He showed me on video.

Too many people close off their stance on the 2 handed backhand and end up arming it. You could say safin did it but the always lifted the front foot to let his hips thru.

Well different strokes for different folks. All I can say the 11 year old juniors destroying their 2hbh at 60lbs soaking wet aren’t using their arms that much. It’s all hips and leg drive.

Sorry by hips I mean the whole core including your lats Dorsi.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@Kobble @aimr75 @DavaiMarat

I love me some 2hbh discussion ... thanks. I thought I would sumarize my current thoughts (I say "current" because this thread was about something I changed my opinion/understanding on ... so most likely will never quit learning).

The main point of the racquet lag is the lag, not the exact timing of setting it, or the variations in releasing the lag by contact. If you are feeling the whip (I do), then that is the point ... doing a lot of things right or you would not feel it.

Setting the lag:

Obviously from watching a lot pro 2hbhs, it is pretty standard to set the lag right around the forward swing from slot. If it's before, or completed soon after ... I say good to go if you are feeling the whip (easy rhs from release of forearm/racquet lag angle).

Release of lag:

This was the original point I was trying to make. My experience is I have more flexibility/variation with the degree of whip with the 2hbh. Sometimes it's just a relaxed squaring up by contact, sometimes it feels like I add more with more active effort. (Maybe this is not a point of agreement). If "more active effort", what is it? I have been thinking in terms of just being more active with hands. That no longer seems to make any sense. The two hands on the grip act as one grip, and it's the arms working together which controls that grip. So with lag ... which is lag from dom arm, any "more active release" would be arm effort that release that lag faster. Maybe what I am trying to define is nothing more then sometimes I get after it more with left arm which speeds the release around dom arm. My guess is the right arm is also assisting in the extra whip buried in muscle memory. My main takeaway is 2hbh is more about loose active arms, and two hands just hanging on.

Hips:

My main pushback here is always "not rotation of hip forward, followed by rotation of shoulders ... it all starts together". Also ... using 2hbh as the example, I don't understand any initial "explosion", hips or otherwise. What I feel is an initial relaxed rotation of everything together over hip (torso, shoulders, arms come along for free) ... then firing/straightening of left arm for rhs boost.

 

[DavaiMarat]

So I was playing with this last night. Arms down in the drop position accelerating from that position (ala Michael Chang/Gill Simon). Alternating between my normal racquet head up and flip and torso opening 1st method. With the 1st method I felt like the arms were extending before the opening of the torso and legs. The 2nd method my torso was driving my arms opening 1st before arms came thru.

Honestly, the arms dropped version was less powerful but a tad more consistent. The arms up/flip method was heavier. Both had tops spin and both I could hit with depth. I came across this video tutorial with Top Tennis Training that you can see the hips opening before the racquet flex. Guess this is how I hit the ball using the body to accelerate the arms. There is still active arms but loose hands.

 

[ByeByePoly]

So I was playing with this last night. Arms down in the drop position accelerating from that position (ala Michael Chang/Gill Simon). Alternating between my normal racquet head up and flip and torso opening 1st method. With the 1st method I felt like the arms were extending before the opening of the torso and legs. The 2nd method my torso was driving my arms opening 1st before arms came thru.

Honestly, the arms dropped version was less powerful but a tad more consistent. The arms up/flip method was heavier. Both had tops spin and both I could hit with depth. I came across this video tutorial with Top Tennis Training that you can see the hips opening before the racquet flex. Guess this is how I hit the ball using the body to accelerate the arms. There is still active arms but loose hands.

Man .. I would take Simon's 2hbh ... sweet stroke.

I really like Simon and Alex instruction videos ... both know more about tennis strokes than I ever will ... BUT ... I just think Simon is way off here thinking a drop/loop adds any meaningful rhs. It's been debated here a lot, players are just going to agree to disagree. I think all meaningful rhs starts from the swing from the slot. You can see it in Simon's slow motion 2hbhs ... floats down to slot, and then he accelerates. He (none of us hitting a decent 2hbh) doesn't start rotating his torso (hips to shoulders) until hands have dropped to slot. In order to makes the case that the racquet up added rhs before torso rotation, you are only left with 1) gravity drop 2) arms only acceleration going down to the slot. No one is swinging from top of backswing ... we all swing from the slot. Left with gravity drop being a rhs adder ... I will never believe that ... but then I am stubborn.

I think the big rhs adder Simon's 2hbh has that Hewitt's did not is the racquet lag at the hands. Both Simon and Hewitt swing from the slot, but Simon's late active left arm and racquet lag release is the big rhs addition imo. That ... and great shoulder turn and fantastic timing.

We are funny ... Hewitt was #1 in the world and we want a better technical 2hbh for our rec games. LOL!!!

 

[pencilcheck]

I would say that arm snapping is the result of a specific motion. Not necessarily what is required in a good 2hbh.

Which means in my opinion, to have a good backhand, you need a good anticipation and also good footwork (e.g. you shouldn't be leaning/hitting backwards), core rotation + takeback. Arm snapping wouldn't change a thing if the rest of your body posture, weight transfer are all ineffective.

 

[moonballs]

Man .. I would take Simon's 2hbh ... sweet stroke.

I really like Simon and Alex instruction videos ... both know more about tennis strokes than I ever will ... BUT ... I just think Simon is way off here thinking a drop/loop adds any meaningful rhs. It's been debated here a lot, players are just going to agree to disagree. I think all meaningful rhs starts from the swing from the slot. You can see it in Simon's slow motion 2hbhs ... floats down to slot, and then he accelerates. He (none of us hitting a decent 2hbh) doesn't start rotating his torso (hips to shoulders) until hands have dropped to slot. In order to makes the case that the racquet up added rhs before torso rotation, you are only left with 1) gravity drop 2) arms only acceleration going down to the slot. No one is swinging from top of backswing ... we all swing from the slot. Left with gravity drop being a rhs adder ... I will never believe that ... but then I am stubborn.

I think the big rhs adder Simon's 2hbh has that Hewitt's did not is the racquet lag at the hands. Both Simon and Hewitt swing from the slot, but Simon's late active left arm and racquet lag release is the big rhs addition imo. That ... and great shoulder turn and fantastic timing.

We are funny ... Hewitt was #1 in the world and we want a better technical 2hbh for our rec games. LOL!!!

I tend to agree with you about the loop. The loop is supposed to help with the gravity drop, but my two arms have too much tension and the weight of the racquet doesn’t drop the racquet head enough. This is totally different from the whippy swing on the forehand side. When a coach saw my back hand side he immediately said I needed to focus more low to high. In my case the Djokovic loop basically doesn’t work for me. Lowering the take back gives my arms more time to lower the racquet head. I know it is no where near effortless and I don’t know if I can ever get to the point where I can say I have something remotely like effortless power on this side.

But put this in perspective, in matches people tend to just moon ball to my backhand. The important shots are either moonballing back, which low to high is no issue, or run around hitting a forehand.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I tend to agree with you about the loop. The loop is supposed to help with the gravity drop, but my two arms have too much tension and the weight of the racquet doesn’t drop the racquet head enough. This is totally different from the whippy swing on the forehand side. When a coach saw my back hand side he immediately said I needed to focus more low to high. In my case the Djokovic loop basically doesn’t work for me. Lowering the take back gives my arms more time to lower the racquet head. I know it is no where near effortless and I don’t know if I can ever get to the point where I can say I have something remotely like effortless power on this side.

But put this in perspective, in matches people tend to just moon ball to my backhand. The important shots are either moonballing back, which low to high is no issue, or run around hitting a forehand.

My point is we all end up at the bottom (slot) ... whatever technique (Hewitt loop, Djokovic drop (which is a loop, just smalker) or just stick it right down there in the slot like Rios and Radwanska. Then we all swing from the slot (uncoiling starts), not before.

Low to high will be defined by where your hands and racquet are at the slot, and swing path from there to contact. The prep (loop, drop, straight to slot) didn't define low to high swing.

Yes ... actually there really isn't ever a pure gravity drop. Whether loop or Djoker take back ... it's a combination of using gravity (weight of arms and racquet), but some muscle control to end up with hands and arms in right position at the slot. With 2hbh this often includes setting the racquet lag before swing from slot.

The idea with loop/gravity drop helping with rhs is that you have momentum carried into the slot which prevents you from starting from a standstill. But any slow motion review shows a slow controlled float down to slot before any shoulder rotation ... has to be minor contribution. Not minor in timing ... I prefer a drop/loop much more than just sticking the racquet immediately down.

We throw terms around here all the time ... this is what I mean by "slot" .... at bottom at the back right before significan torso rotation starts forward:

My view is it matters not how they got there ... hell take two loops or double pump the drop ... the $ is made from those slots to contact ... all IMO of course.

I originally went to get a pic of Hewitt at the slot since that is the reference Simon made. I had the picture of Hewitt hitting his FH loop ... but that isn't how he hits his BH ... closer to Djokovic than I remembered. I think Djokovic's type BH is also a loop ... just smaller than what we picture with the big loop of Hewitt's and Agassi's FHs. So I tried to find that big loop on any pro 2hbh ... didn't have much luck. Maybe you could say Key's is more of a loop ... but this is all degrees of difference to me, not bright line of 2hbh categories. Probably Coco's 2hbh would be the best example of the bigger loop ... but I could not find decent video to grab a pic from.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I would say that arm snapping is the result of a specific motion. Not necessarily what is required in a good 2hbh.

Which means in my opinion, to have a good backhand, you need a good anticipation and also good footwork (e.g. you shouldn't be leaning/hitting backwards), core rotation + takeback. Arm snapping wouldn't change a thing if the rest of your body posture, weight transfer are all ineffective.

Hey Pencil ... this thread wasn't about all the fundamentals of a good 2hbh, I was just expressing an opinion about the unique way 2hbh racquet lag is released IMO.

So only about 2hbhs with lag ... would not apply to a Hewitt type 2hbh without much lag.

My Premise:

The two handed 2hbh racquet lag release is fundamentally different than the one arm/hand lag release (thing ATP FH w/flip).

Making the case:

My first evidence is for anyone that hits both lag on the FH and the 2hbh ... do you find you have more flexibility with "active" variation on the 2hbh than you do on the FH? I do ... it's a basis of my OP. This thread isn't for anyone that thinks the 2hbh lag release is 100% result/passive. No worries ... thread isn't probably for that player. OR ... even better ... make the case that the 2hbh lag release is all passive ... we are all here to learn.

To me, one of the obvious examples of doing more than "passive" 2hbh arms/hands is the often heard commentator in pro matches "they really used a lot of left hand in that stretched out 2hbh to pull off that sharp cc angle". Maybe that was extra active arms than active hands ... but the commentators are recognizing an "active" effort in those shots that is not used in a normal rally ball.

Slap is a terrible term to use describing a tennis stroke ... rates right up there with "active wrist" in taboos. Let's try different words. I think one of the big differences in the 2hbh racquet lag release is it's obviously not just arm roll like the case that is made on the ATP FH flip. The bowed dom hand at the slot is a common trait in pro 2hbhs. That bow comes from dropped racquet head below the hands, and sometimes also racquet head pulled back past forearm line. Any slow motion review of pro 2hbhs with this bowed dom hand racquet lag shows the racquet swings around that dom hand in the process of releasing that forearm/racquet angle by contact. Maybe you can identify arm roll also ... but it's clearly a release of angle happening at the dom hand. Now ... like I said above, the two hands work together as one grip, so one might make the case the non dom arm/hand is also releasing arm/racquet angle by contact. If so, that just supports (not an argument against) my premise that the two arms/hands work together going into contact to release that lag.

I framed this as "more active on some 2hbhs". I find the 2hbh flexible/variable in areas I do not with the FH. So on an average rally ball ... there will be average lag (maybe sometimes none) ... no extra active effort to release lag ... going for low UE repeatable solid flattish 2hbh with some topspin. But I also have found a little extra shoulder turn, a little more active hands (now I think active arms) into contact bumped up the pace. Most likely, if I looked at that on video, more active lag release "probably" meant more/bigger lag. AND.... it's quite where I was wrong thinking in terms of "active hands" ... I am now wrong about thinking "more active arms on some 2hbh shots". Maybe that's all it is ... with fine control of arms/hands ... increase the racquet lag on some shots, and the left arm just does it's normal thing helping to power the stroke. Maybe ... but it feels like more than that to me ... it feels like more active "flip/slap" at the hands from effort ... not just a bigger lag release.

Anywho ... I love talking 2hbh ... that is what it "feels" like to me at this "teenage 2hbh stage".

 

[pencilcheck]

Hey Pencil ... this thread wasn't about all the fundamentals of a good 2hbh, I was just expressing an opinion about the unique way 2hbh racquet lag is released IMO.

So only about 2hbhs with lag ... would not apply to a Hewitt type 2hbh without much lag.

My Premise:

The two handed 2hbh racquet lag release is fundamentally different than the one arm/hand lag release (thing ATP FH w/flip).

Making the case:

My first evidence is for anyone that hits both lag on the FH and the 2hbh ... do you find you have more flexibility with "active" variation on the 2hbh than you do on the FH? I do ... it's a basis of my OP. This thread isn't for anyone that thinks the 2hbh lag release is 100% result/passive. No worries ... thread isn't probably for that player. OR ... even better ... make the case that the 2hbh lag release is all passive ... we are all here to learn.

To me, one of the obvious examples of doing more than "passive" 2hbh arms/hands is the often heard commentator in pro matches "they really used a lot of left hand in that stretched out 2hbh to pull off that sharp cc angle". Maybe that was extra active arms than active hands ... but the commentators are recognizing an "active" effort in those shots that is not used in a normal rally ball.

Slap is a terrible term to use describing a tennis stroke ... rates right up there with "active wrist" in taboos. Let's try different words. I think one of the big differences in the 2hbh racquet lag release is it's obviously not just arm roll like the case that is made on the ATP FH flip. The bowed dom hand at the slot is a common trait in pro 2hbhs. That bow comes from dropped racquet head below the hands, and sometimes also racquet head pulled back past forearm line. Any slow motion review of pro 2hbhs with this bowed dom hand racquet lag shows the racquet swings around that dom hand in the process of releasing that forearm/racquet angle by contact. Maybe you can identify arm roll also ... but it's clearly a release of angle happening at the dom hand. Now ... like I said above, the two hands work together as one grip, so one might make the case the non dom arm/hand is also releasing arm/racquet angle by contact. If so, that just supports (not an argument against) my premise that the two arms/hands work together going into contact to release that lag.

I framed this as "more active on some 2hbhs". I find the 2hbh flexible/variable in areas I do not with the FH. So on an average rally ball ... there will be average lag (maybe sometimes none) ... no extra active effort to release lag ... going for low UE repeatable solid flattish 2hbh with some topspin. But I also have found a little extra shoulder turn, a little more active hands (now I think active arms) into contact bumped up the pace. Most likely, if I looked at that on video, more active lag release "probably" meant more/bigger lag. AND.... it's quite where I was wrong thinking in terms of "active hands" ... I am now wrong about thinking "more active arms on some 2hbh shots". Maybe that's all it is ... with fine control of arms/hands ... increase the racquet lag on some shots, and the left arm just does it's normal thing helping to power the stroke. Maybe ... but it feels like more than that to me ... it feels like more active "flip/slap" at the hands from effort ... not just a bigger lag release.

Anywho ... I love talking 2hbh ... that is what it "feels" like to me at this "teenage 2hbh stage".

I would say reading between the lines, one of the reasons you created this thread is to discuss if having good "active snap" would increase power or accuracy of 2hbh correct?

If so, I would say focusing on those will limit your potential and only get you so far as wrist is not the biggest muscle and will not give you the result you want if you focus on it. (it actually is a distraction to be honest if you focus on it when you do the swing).

I do see the point of simply having a scholar discussion of how and why their wrist move that way, I'm all for that as well but I thought it benefit more if we also focus on how to actually get better at tennis.


Three topics I would like to clarify
1. Is whip/lag motion critical for forehand and backhand? And is it required to advance to next level?
2. Is the whip/lag motion different between forehand and backhand?
3. If I were a pro, what I would focus on for backhand.


1.
A decent 2hbh or forehand is not the result of "lag" or "active wrist". However "lag" and "active wrist" is not completely useless. Those in my opinion, the degree in which they exhibit is the result of having certain body attributes, whether your wrist is flexible and firm, etc.

Djokovic has a very flexible body, also very strong muscle, therefore it is hard for people to exactly copy what he is doing, as he is just too good, so it is usually not advised to copy what Djokovic is doing since no one on the pro tour can really do what he do consistently (e.g. do a split while running and hitting the ball back).

The wrist technique also matters more on the kind of ball you want to hit and the ball you are receiving. e.g. Some people like to hit flat, some people like to hit loopy topspin ball, it really depends on your body and how flexible you are, not just wrist but down to your arm and shoulder etc. Some people have trouble hitting ball on the rise, they would also use wrist to get it last sec etc

However I would say that a decent 2hbh and forehand rely on a) a good footwork that allows easy core rotation b) always moving forward
The wrist comes into play in my opinion, on catching the ball on the rise or hitting the ball clean, since you would probably need to adjust your racquet so it hit the ball while it travels in the air and your arm is probably not fast enough to adjust to that micro level to handle weird bounces or spins etc.

Wrist is useful and used regularly at top level tennis, however I would say realistically, for someone who play only 1-2 times a week, focusing on wrist will only set them back since the other part is more important to build up the fundamentals.

Specifically, I found as a 2hbh user, the most effective way for me to consistently hit the ball clean, is to apply natural wrist depends on how high or fast the ball is spinning and kicking towards me, the more topspin, the more natural wrist movement will come out of me. But I never focus on it as the more important part of my swing is more of a right footwork, positioning, right takeback and solid arm on contact (not flimsy or moving arm) in my case, on contact my dominent arm (the right arm in this case as a lefty), will be bend since bending is more strong naturally for me.

2.
Yes, of course since one is one hand, the other is two handed, the freedom of motion of those wrist will be different. Your approach of the shot will be different as well.


3.
I would focus more on finding a natural grip that allows me to not worry about wrist first, that I can easy find the contact point that allows smooth and effortless swing. I will focus more on finding the right takeback that allows my racquet to point to the sky without any unnatural wrist movement, then I will practice moving my legs to the position that I can consistently hit the ball clean.

Wrist will come naturally when hitting the ball.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I would say reading between the lines, one of the reasons you created this thread is to discuss if having good "active snap" would increase power or accuracy of 2hbh correct?

If so, I would say focusing on those will limit your potential and only get you so far as wrist is not the biggest muscle and will not give you the result you want if you focus on it. (it actually is a distraction to be honest if you focus on it when you do the swing).

I do see the point of simply having a scholar discussion of how and why their wrist move that way, I'm all for that as well but I thought it benefit more if we also focus on how to actually get better at tennis.


Three topics I would like to clarify
1. Is whip/lag motion critical for forehand and backhand? And is it required to advance to next level?
2. Is the whip/lag motion different between forehand and backhand?
3. If I were a pro, what I would focus on for backhand.


1.
A decent 2hbh or forehand is not the result of "lag" or "active wrist". However "lag" and "active wrist" is not completely useless. Those in my opinion, the degree in which they exhibit is the result of having certain body attributes, whether your wrist is flexible and firm, etc.

Djokovic has a very flexible body, also very strong muscle, therefore it is hard for people to exactly copy what he is doing, as he is just too good, so it is usually not advised to copy what Djokovic is doing since no one on the pro tour can really do what he do consistently (e.g. do a split while running and hitting the ball back).

The wrist technique also matters more on the kind of ball you want to hit and the ball you are receiving. e.g. Some people like to hit flat, some people like to hit loopy topspin ball, it really depends on your body and how flexible you are, not just wrist but down to your arm and shoulder etc. Some people have trouble hitting ball on the rise, they would also use wrist to get it last sec etc

However I would say that a decent 2hbh and forehand rely on a) a good footwork that allows easy core rotation b) always moving forward
The wrist comes into play in my opinion, on catching the ball on the rise or hitting the ball clean, since you would probably need to adjust your racquet so it hit the ball while it travels in the air and your arm is probably not fast enough to adjust to that micro level to handle weird bounces or spins etc.

Wrist is useful and used regularly at top level tennis, however I would say realistically, for someone who play only 1-2 times a week, focusing on wrist will only set them back since the other part is more important to build up the fundamentals.

Specifically, I found as a 2hbh user, the most effective way for me to consistently hit the ball clean, is to apply natural wrist depends on how high or fast the ball is spinning and kicking towards me, the more topspin, the more natural wrist movement will come out of me. But I never focus on it as the more important part of my swing is more of a right footwork, positioning, right takeback and solid arm on contact (not flimsy or moving arm) in my case, on contact my dominent arm (the right arm in this case as a lefty), will be bend since bending is more strong naturally for me.

2.
Yes, of course since one is one hand, the other is two handed, the freedom of motion of those wrist will be different. Your approach of the shot will be different as well.


3.
I would focus more on finding a natural grip that allows me to not worry about wrist first, that I can easy find the contact point that allows smooth and effortless swing. I will focus more on finding the right takeback that allows my racquet to point to the sky without any unnatural wrist movement, then I will practice moving my legs to the position that I can consistently hit the ball clean.

Wrist will come naturally when hitting the ball.

"I would say reading between the lines, one of the reasons you created this thread is to discuss if having good "active snap" would increase power or accuracy of 2hbh correct? "

It increases power, not accuracy. Well ... I guess that depends with the accuracy. If you were trying to hit a 60 mph 2hbh, and your non-lag-snap stroke required a 60 mph swing, and the with-lag-snap required a 50 mph swing ... then maybe. But ... this thread was about added power from active arm snap releasing the racquet leg hounds.

Yeah ... you are still off on a tangent about 2hbh fundamentals. I'm not trying to learn how to hit a 2hbh ... or learn about 2hbh fundamentals in this thread. I have a decent 2hbh now ... pretty versed on the fundamentals after 3 years of 24x7 2hbh ... now just need more match hours to turn it into a lower UE stroke (particularly ros ... have had too many injuries last two years for enough match time).

I will reply to your "2hbh fundamentals" in a 2nd post ... always like talking 2hbhs ... and always trying to learn/get better.

But this post had nothing to do with fundamentals, footwork, most important 2hbh stuff to work on ... it was simply from the following pic to contact ... just assume perfect footwork, spacing and attitude:

That bowed right hand gets un-bowed by contact. I'm saying the 2hbh is an active arms target rich environment un-bowing before contact. I think there is magic variability in them two arms/hands that you do not have with the FH.

That's it ... all the thread was suppose to be about.

Now ... will comment on your other content in next post.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I would say reading between the lines, one of the reasons you created this thread is to discuss if having good "active snap" would increase power or accuracy of 2hbh correct?

Yes ... answered above ... active arms snap increases power.

If so, I would say focusing on those will limit your potential and only get you so far as wrist is not the biggest muscle and will not give you the result you want if you focus on it. (it actually is a distraction to be honest if you focus on it when you do the swing).

Already have a decent 2hbh ... spent a lot of hours on it in 3+ years. I purposely avoided adding any racquet lag for first couple of years, then came back and started to add it after 2hbh was pretty solid (need more match hours to make it match solid). So was not distracted during the 2hbh adolescence stage.

I do see the point of simply having a scholar discussion of how and why their wrist move that way, I'm all for that as well but I thought it benefit more if we also focus on how to actually get better at tennis.

Having hit to 2hbh at first without racquet lag, and now with ... this isn't a scholar discussion. It's a huge adder to have racquet lag in the stroke, makes topspin easier, same pace with slower more controlled swing, and A LOT more fun to hit. It's a legit question for a rec player to ask themselves ... "is it worth it to me, or will it make me a better player if I add racquet lag to my 2hbh". You figure the odds are low it will make you a better hack rec player ... I mean Hewitt was #1 in the world with a non-lag 2hbh. I would just say ... do it because it's WAY MORE FUN ... and hopefully you can be just as consistent with the added lag.


Three topics I would like to clarify
1. Is whip/lag motion critical for forehand and backhand? And is it required to advance to next level?

NO

2. Is the whip/lag motion different between forehand and backhand?

YES

3. If I were a pro, what I would focus on for backhand.

ALL OF IT


1.
A decent 2hbh or forehand is not the result of "lag" or "active wrist". However "lag" and "active wrist" is not completely useless. Those in my opinion, the degree in which they exhibit is the result of having certain body attributes, whether your wrist is flexible and firm, etc.

Well ... the best ATP 2hbhs all have racquet lag, so I would say it's pretty much a requirement for top ATP 2hbhs in the pros today. Disagree on the flexibility requirement when it comes to racquet lag in the 2hbh. To turn your shoulders back like Djoker ... yep, flexibility requirement ... rec players need not apply. But setting racquet lag is simply a matter of dropping racquet head below the hand, and also usually back some. I'm not very flexible ... and can do it easily.

Djokovic has a very flexible body, also very strong muscle, therefore it is hard for people to exactly copy what he is doing, as he is just too good, so it is usually not advised to copy what Djokovic is doing since no one on the pro tour can really do what he do consistently (e.g. do a split while running and hitting the ball back).

No kidding ... but does not apply to racquet lag. Unit turn, and arm positions at the slot where we set the racquet lag ... most definitely ... don't even think about matching Djoker (who said we are trying to btw ... I like using players as models, like arm positions at takeback and contact ... but that's about it). But any rec player can set racquet lag regardless of their unit turn and arm positions.

The wrist technique also matters more on the kind of ball you want to hit and the ball you are receiving. e.g. Some people like to hit flat, some people like to hit loopy topspin ball, it really depends on your body and how flexible you are, not just wrist but down to your arm and shoulder etc. Some people have trouble hitting ball on the rise, they would also use wrist to get it last sec etc

I used to think the racquet lag with rh below the hands was just about topspin. So a combination of hand path from slot to contact + rh path from slot to path would determine how much topspin (also if you close the rf ... which I do not). That is all true. But watching Ferrer 2hbh video one day, I realized he was also hitting big racquet lag on his flatter shots. That one stumped me ... why wouldn't he just keep rh level with hand on those? The answer I came up with is the easy increased pace ... it's built into all strokes, even the flatter one. So at this point, I think racquet lag is about spin and pace. I wouldn't call it a "wrist technique" .... that bowed wrist just reflects what the arms and racquet did. If you just hold the racquet with both hands in your 2hbh grip ... racquet back behind you like ready to swing but with rh even with hands, and then simply let the rh drop and move a little behind ... poof ... there is the bowed dom hand. That's all it is to set it ... not a "wrist technique".

However I would say that a decent 2hbh and forehand rely on a) a good footwork that allows easy core rotation b) always moving forward
The wrist comes into play in my opinion, on catching the ball on the rise or hitting the ball clean, since you would probably need to adjust your racquet so it hit the ball while it travels in the air and your arm is probably not fast enough to adjust to that micro level to handle weird bounces or spins etc.

Disagree on this one ... per Ferrer comment above where he hits racquet lag even on flatter strokes. The racquet lag can be a staple in all 2hbhs , and if so, by definition racquet lag releasing at the wrist.

Wrist is useful and used regularly at top level tennis, however I would say realistically, for someone who play only 1-2 times a week, focusing on wrist will only set them back since the other part is more important to build up the fundamentals.

I would say "focusing on lag" ... not "focusing on wrist" ... but point is still valid. It's the question I posed above ... "will you end up with a better 2hbh with lag or without it". For me, the answer is with it, for my wife, the answer would be without it. I might venture a guess that 90% of rec players would be better off without it (from a winning matches perspective). But trust me on this ... I would not give it up now ... stroke would become boring in comparison.

Specifically, I found as a 2hbh user, the most effective way for me to consistently hit the ball clean, is to apply natural wrist depends on how high or fast the ball is spinning and kicking towards me, the more topspin, the more natural wrist movement will come out of me. But I never focus on it as the more important part of my swing is more of a right footwork, positioning, right takeback and solid arm on contact (not flimsy or moving arm) in my case, on contact my dominent arm (the right arm in this case as a lefty), will be bend since bending is more strong naturally for me.

Yeah ... all of it should fade to muscle memory. Didn't follow that exactly, but my swing path a lag/arms/hands depends on the shot I am hitting, not what the opponent hit. I hit topspin off a flat ball sometimes, and a flat ball off a topspin sometimes. So didn't follow you. If you are left handed, your 2hbh dominant arm is your left arm .... unless you meant you hitting backwards like Nadal.

2.
Yes, of course since one is one hand, the other is two handed, the freedom of motion of those wrist will be different. Your approach of the shot will be different as well.



3.
I would focus more on finding a natural grip that allows me to not worry about wrist first, that I can easy find the contact point that allows smooth and effortless swing. I will focus more on finding the right takeback that allows my racquet to point to the sky without any unnatural wrist movement, then I will practice moving my legs to the position that I can consistently hit the ball clean.

I hit bend/straight , cont/east ... has felt natural to me from the start. I experimented with different takebacks, I don't think it matters much as long as you end up at a good slot position. I settled on a takeback similar to Djokovic as far as height and racquet angle orientation (slightly higher). I learned the 2hbh hitting exclusively closed stance weight transfer 2hbhs ... then added semi open back leg 2hbhs. Adding the semi open option/flexibility was an important addition .... particularly on ros. I think one of the most important (and difficult) first things in the closed 2hbh learning curve is the timing of 1) unit turn 2) landing on the front leg as racquet drops/loops to the slot, torso rotation around front/dom hip and swinging to contact. That is a huge timing hurdle ... at least it was for me. Get that one wrong, and you will have a weak tea 2hbh IMO.

Wrist will come naturally when hitting the ball.

Have to set the lag in backswing, or there will be no lag to release.

Tired .... need to rest.

 

[pencilcheck]

Yes ... answered above ... active arms snap increases power.

After hitting a bit more, I would say the biggest benefit of racquet lag in my opinion adds a bit of power but also stability on contact so it would be easier to hit clean and also if you keep it lagged, you can hit "flatter". But lagging is only acting as an enhancer to my shot, not a night and day change in my opinion.

Already have a decent 2hbh ... spent a lot of hours on it in 3+ years. I purposely avoided adding any racquet lag for first couple of years, then came back and started to add it after 2hbh was pretty solid (need more match hours to make it match solid). So was not distracted during the 2hbh adolescence stage.

What do you mean by decent? If you have trouble hitting through the ball, or adding spin to the ball, a lot of time it is more due to your fundamentals like leg, core than wrist snap. Wrist snap wouldn't help much in this area for a huge change in the ball trajectory or bigger spin or adding ~10 mph etc.

Having hit to 2hbh at first without racquet lag, and now with ... this isn't a scholar discussion. It's a huge adder to have racquet lag in the stroke, makes topspin easier, same pace with slower more controlled swing, and A LOT more fun to hit. It's a legit question for a rec player to ask themselves ... "is it worth it to me, or will it make me a better player if I add racquet lag to my 2hbh". You figure the odds are low it will make you a better hack rec player ... I mean Hewitt was #1 in the world with a non-lag 2hbh. I would just say ... do it because it's WAY MORE FUN ... and hopefully you can be just as consistent with the added lag.

Then perhaps you have been looking at racquet lag the wrong way then, because now I'm looking closer to his hitting practices, Hewitt was doing the racquet lag, it looked different than djokovic I think because of his grip and contact point.

Disagree on this one ... per Ferrer comment above where he hits racquet lag even on flatter strokes. The racquet lag can be a staple in all 2hbhs , and if so, by definition racquet lag releasing at the wrist.

I would still say that the biggest change that you can see in improving any rec player's 2hbh is still core and footwork. Ferrer has very good footwork and he is very strong at the base. Having the lag wouldn't be adding a lot more and it might even make the stroke unstable if used incorrectly.

I would say "focusing on lag" ... not "focusing on wrist" ... but point is still valid. It's the question I posed above ... "will you end up with a better 2hbh with lag or without it". For me, the answer is with it, for my wife, the answer would be without it. I might venture a guess that 90% of rec players would be better off without it (from a winning matches perspective). But trust me on this ... I would not give it up now ... stroke would become boring in comparison.

I would advice you to look into more of the core, particularly, notice how those pros are doing before they hit. I think there are certain pattern that they are all doing that might help to get your 2hbh to the next level.

I hit bend/straight , cont/east ... has felt natural to me from the start. I experimented with different takebacks, I don't think it matters much as long as you end up at a good slot position. I settled on a takeback similar to Djokovic as far as height and racquet angle orientation (slightly higher). I learned the 2hbh hitting exclusively closed stance weight transfer 2hbhs ... then added semi open back leg 2hbhs. Adding the semi open option/flexibility was an important addition .... particularly on ros. I think one of the most important (and difficult) first things in the closed 2hbh learning curve is the timing of 1) unit turn 2) landing on the front leg as racquet drops/loops to the slot, torso rotation around front/dom hip and swinging to contact. That is a huge timing hurdle ... at least it was for me. Get that one wrong, and you will have a weak tea 2hbh IMO.

I find myself doing a bit more closer to eastern and semi-western similar feel to how nadal look but not sure if I'm really hitting like him (lol of course not). I think I'm naturally finding myself more stable slightly bend, so maybe that's why more extreme grip works for me. I used to be hitting my backhand all over the place but now i think I found a good spot where I'm hitting neutral + closed stances like what you did there and it worked for me. I don't have timing issue somehow, it felt very natural as I open up when I start the rotation.

 

[a12345]

Yeah Its not just a left hand forehand where fh principles just apply. Its a different stroke for me. Here is how I try and drop it in the slot before the forward swing:

The racket shouldnt just fall backwards.

As the left arm straightens, the racket doesnt drop back it should go slightly forwards, or at least the momentum should already be forwards. Thats where you will get the dip and flip. Watch the above Nadal video or any of Djokovic or Murray.

As the left arm straightens the momentum is moving forwards. Its almost like youre pushing it down in front of you.

What youre doing is letting the racket drop behind you and then swinging your arms and body around. You can do that, but thats not what Djokovic and Murray are doing.

So dont just dip down and back, it should feel like youre moving forwards as you dip and straighten the left arm.

Once youre in the dip position your left arm is loaded. This is like the "slot postion" of the forehand. Now do a left forehand.

As you bring it to contact it will naturally brush up to get topspin without even trying to do it, its the natural motion from the dip/slot position.

 

[a12345]

So basically as the racket drops, the key is your momentum should be moving forwards caused by your hips/ body turn.

Dont drop the racket down behind then swing forwards. As you straighten the left arm to dip it, the racket should be moving forwards if you want to get that flip effect.

As an analogy, instead of an "L" where the racket head drops down to the corner of the "L", then you swing forwards - it should be a "V" shape.

In a V shape you can visualise it moving down and forwards at the same time.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The racket shouldnt just fall backwards.

As the left arm straightens, the racket doesnt drop back it should go slightly forwards, or at least the momentum should already be forwards. Thats where you will get the dip and flip. Watch the above Nadal video or any of Djokovic or Murray.

As the left arm straightens the momentum is moving forwards. Its almost like youre pushing down.

What youre doing is letting the racket drop behind you and then swinging your arms and body around. You can do that, but thats not what Djokovic and Murray are doing.

So dont just dip down and back, it should feel like youre moving forwards as you dip and straighten the left arm.

Once youre in the dip position your left arm is loaded. This is like the "slot postion" or the forehand. Now do a left forehand.

As you bring it to contact it will naturally brush up to get topspin without even trying to do it, its the natural motion from the dip/slot position.

This thread was about the use of arms in the release of the lag, and not the setting of the lag. But it pretty easy to see that many pros set the lag before the hand even moves forward (momentum not setting it on many). I will comment more soon ... I have some update “thoughts” on my OP after my ball machine session yesterday.

FYI ... comparing 2hbh thoughts with NYTA ... we felt our setting of 2hbh came at the end of the loop/drop ... and that is momentum getting into lag ... just not like fh where forward hand/butt cap move sets the racquet lag behind hand. There are also cases like Murray, Kobble where lag set early but increased in forward swing.

More comments soon ... need a keyboard

 

[a12345]

This thread was about the use of arms in the release of the lag, and not the setting of the lag. But it pretty easy to see that many pros set the lag before the hand even moves forward (momentum not setting it on many). I will comment more soon ... I have some update “thoughts” on my OP after my ball machine session yesterday.

FYI ... comparing 2hbh thoughts with NYTA ... we felt our setting of 2hbh came at the end of the loop/drop ... and that is momentum getting into lag ... just not like fh where forward hand/butt cap move sets the racquet lag behind hand. There are also cases like Murray, Kobble where lag set early but increased in forward swing.

More comments soon ... need a keyboard

Once youre in the slot position its just a left handed forehand from here on. The bowing in the right wrist is just a consequence of it having to be in this position in order to hold it at the slot position, but it doesnt serve any role.

So for example if you hold the racket in the dip/slot position with just your left hand - now put your right hand on the racket - it has no other option but to be bowed. Its just the way it has to be in order to hold onto the racket.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Once youre in the slot position its just a left handed forehand from here on. The bowing in the right wrist is just a consequence of it having to be in this position in order to hold it at the slot position, but it doesnt serve any role.

So for example if you hold the racket in the dip/slot position with just your left hand - now put your right hand on the racket - it has no other option but to be bowed. Its just the way it has to be in order to hold onto the racket.

I will start a new thread for this ... and will tag you so we can debate setting the 2hbh racquet lag.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Once youre in the slot position its just a left handed forehand from here on. The bowing in the right wrist is just a consequence of it having to be in this position in order to hold it at the slot position, but it doesnt serve any role.

So for example if you hold the racket in the dip/slot position with just your left hand - now put your right hand on the racket - it has no other option but to be bowed. Its just the way it has to be in order to hold onto the racket.

The bowing of the wrist is a consequence of racquet head below hand at the slot (and maybe any additional pulling rh back a bit more). Djokovic below hits a big lag 2hbh, and Hewitt hits no lag (or minimal if one prefers) ... rh pretty level with hand, and no lag or bowing of the right/dom wrist (But Hewitt is also holding racquet at slot with no bowing wrist). So the bowing of the wrist is a consequence of rh drop/racquet lag ... but there big consequence lag or no lag.

Don't agree 2hbh is just a lhfh ... from slot or otherwise ... but will address that in another thread.

 

[ByeByePoly]

An update on my 2hbh feelings

So this thread was about 2hbhs with racquet lag (Djokovic above) and not non-lag or minimal lag (Hewitt above).

Also ... it was solely about the premise that from Djoker pic #1 above (slot) to pic #2 (contact) ... the 2hbh offers flexibility/variation/active effort in how the two arms/hands work together before contact (from pic #1 to pic #2). The thread was not about saying 1) everyone should hit a lag 2hbh ... and 2) not suggesting variation in our left and right arm active roles in our 2hbh strokes is a good thing.

I do point back to commentators comments during pro matches where they say "they really used a lot of left hand to pull that fully stretched 2hbh to that sharp cc angle". At least on that "specialty 2hbh shot, there is some variation in the active role of hands (arms) into contact. I just think it often applies to standard rally balls also ... it's why I love the 2hbh. I do not think a one arm FH offers the same flexibility/variation.

I will bold this line ... because it was my observation in the OP ... and I still believe it ... it's active arm variation and not active hand variation for the most part.

The reason I make the distinction is for the same reason there is so much passion here against active wrist in FHs. Hands and wrists should be the things of fine motor control, and relaxed release of lag or arm roll at the hand/wrist ... but not active wrist powering of a stroke. That is a good way to suck ... and also hurt your wrist.

So final "active arm snap" thoughts/feelings from my ball machine session yesterday:

Right out of the gate, I was reminded of something I already was well aware of. A 2hbh is a two armed stroke, and not a one armed stroke. Have you ever seen a pro (usually WTA) hit a 2hbh that that is so weak it barely makes it to the net. Not talking about mishits ... and not talking about any difference in swing speed, or being late ... just every now and then a dud pops out. This used to happen to me in ball machine sessions, could be in a total groove ... and out of nowhere, these weak duds would pop out. There was some cussing involved. Then one day, I saw Serena do a couple ... and I could not quit smiling.

Here is what I think is happening ... and I bring it up because this issue shows back up as soon as I work on touch 2hbh offspeed shots, and it did with this testing of more vs less active "arms". For me, and I think pro 2hbhs just from observing ... you have to be swinging both arms "significantly" to hit a decent stroke (for me, I also need shoulder turn, all arms just doesn't work). So as soon as I think "go more active with left arm, and do little with right arm".... poop ... weak tea 2hbh. So whether I am talking about a touch 2hbh (barely clear net, offspeed with some topsping, or a topsping lob with a very controlled lower swing speed) ... sometimes that flips my right arm into doing to little.

Actually ... I think we swing the torso and arms together in initial forward swing ... so viewing that left arm vs right arm thing seems a bit off to me at the start of the swing. But I bring it up ... because apparently ... even though the dom upper arm has to come along for the ride in that initial torso rotation forward ... the dom arm can still just lay there.

Anyhoo ... back to final thoughts about "more active arms sometimes in some 2hbhs for a bit more pace or a bit more ts":

I think it's "mostly" about how much active non-dom left arm in a lagged 2hbh stroke. So on a standard 2hbh w/lag rally ball ... I like everyone has to have an active non-dom (left) arm firing/hitting into contact. Same weak tea problem ... if I just try to swing the torso/shoulders/arms without the extra non-dom effort ... dud. So buried in my 2hbh muscle memory is a standard amount of non-dom arm rocket fuel, and also a standard racquet lag. When I just tried to "add more snap/pace" on some strokes yesterday, and paid attention to what was actually going on ... it was 1) added a bit more lag than standard 2) added significantly more non-dom left arm (not hand) active effort 3) non-dom arm just kept participating in the required two arm swing like usual ... any attempt to do less brought on the duds.

So a long way to go to come to the conclusion 1) it isn't more active hands, it more active non-dom arm 2) leave dom-arm alone doing it's non-passive thing ... don't try and add or subtract from it

My goal is to hit a doubles opponent at the net with a slap++ 2hbh. Is that wrong?

 

[Dan R]

I have been saying lately on some 2hbh, I know I get extra rhs/mph with an active snap near contact. It's not something I do on most rally balls, but just something extra available, like when you turn your shoulders to their max (uncomfortable limit). I have been viewing this as active hands/wrist with very loose wrists. Not anymore ... I now think it's active arms which simply works the two hands on the grip as a lever.

The following video is when it hit me ... which is ironic because he (Nick) doesn't specifically talk about this. Watch 2:50 - 6:30 ... the key point to watch is the bowing (flexion) of the right wrist in the slot, and the release to neutral (or near neutral) by contact. I was well aware of that ... it's how I/we get lag. I was also well aware that the dom hand (my right hand) is back to neutral at contact. So on most of my 2hbhs, it's just a natural release from lag to contact in a controlled manner. BUT ... we have control with two hands to influence that lever release (not saying that is a good idea for a rec player, just explaining what I think I now understand ... until I don't again ). So for example ... a player can control when he releases that lag ... Djoker is able to do that crazy late (sick). I think that just means easy rhs by contact. I also think you can apply "active" release ... release faster than it would have. In my mind, I was simply using the hands together to whip the racquet through a little quicker. It hit me watching the video below that all of the release is around the dom hand (right) ... even though the hands work together. So the mechanism of the non-dom arm/hand firing into contact is in effect ... pushing/releasing the racquet around the arm/hand. I know for a fact I'm not doing anything active with the right hand ... so that challenges the entire idea of "active hands". I now think what we actually do is vary our arm "active" in a 2hbh for different outcomes ... the hands are just along for the ride. I think what happens when I actively snap more ... is a push a bit more with left arm than usual, and "possibly" slow down/resist with right arm/hand to increase the whip.

Be curious what other 2hbh players think.

Watch @2:50 - 6:30

Pros common bowed dom hand, and release to neutral by contact.

I agree with the concept you are addressing here. A couple of things I think are important regarding the slot position (from the perspective of a right hander). In the slot position it is very important to get the right arm above the left arm, not just to get the racket below the ball, but to create leverage/power. The rotation of the left arm above the right is a key feature of the release you are talking about, there's a ton of power created by this move and this is often over looked. So that might be thought of as active arms and not active wrists.

The arm rotation in the slot position doesn't create the broken/bowed right wrist position by itself. As the video points out the left wrist needs to be extended back and the right wrist flexed forward, this completes the wrist lag and creates the bowed right wrist. Lag adds to the power as it is released, but this wrist release is very subtle - too much wrist release and you quickly start to have control issues. The primary benefit of lag is it allows for a longer swing, and more power.

I think it is also critical to have separation in time between the lag and the release, and this is probably different from the forehand where for a lot of pros the lag and release are part of one motion. I think of the swing as three distinct phases. The slot/lag phase, the rotation phase, and the release phase. If you watch the pros in slo motion, they set the wrists in the slot position/phase, then the racket comes forward as the body rotates with the wrists largely fixed, and then they release the lag and rotate the forearms as they approach and through impact. It's this last phase where the swing becomes a left arm dominant swing - to me the left arm is just sweeping up through the ball and its pronating (there's wrist release but I don't focus on that at all). If there's not sufficient separation between the lag and release you have terrible timing issues and will struggle with consistency.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I agree with the concept you are addressing here. A couple of things I think are important regarding the slot position (from the perspective of a right hander). In the slot position it is very important to get the right arm above the left arm, not just to get the racket below the ball, but to create leverage/power. The rotation of the left arm above the right is a key feature of the release you are talking about, there's a ton of power created by this move and this is often over looked. So that might be thought of as active arms and not active wrists.

The arm rotation in the slot position doesn't create the broken/bowed right wrist position by itself. As the video points out the left wrist needs to be extended back and the right wrist flexed forward, this completes the wrist lag and creates the bowed right wrist. Lag adds to the power as it is released, but this wrist release is very subtle - too much wrist release and you quickly start to have control issues. The primary benefit of lag is it allows for a longer swing, and more power.

I think it is also critical to have separation in time between the lag and the release, and this is probably different from the forehand where for a lot of pros the lag and release are part of one motion. I think of the swing as three distinct phases. The slot/lag phase, the rotation phase, and the release phase. If you watch the pros in slo motion, they set the wrists in the slot position/phase, then the racket comes forward as the body rotates with the wrists largely fixed, and then they release the lag and rotate the forearms as they approach and through impact. It's this last phase where the swing becomes a left arm dominant swing - to me the left arm is just sweeping up through the ball and its pronating (there's wrist release but I don't focus on that at all). If there's not sufficient separation between the lag and release you have terrible timing issues and will struggle with consistency.

Liked everything about that post. I also like how you labeled the setting of the lag as it's own first phase. I have been saying for a while ... both fh and bh ... 1) torso rotation ... followed by 2) arms. Which is another way of saying ... torso phase and release phase. Actually ... on 2hbh ... using your added phase 1) slot/set lag 2) torso rotation 3) swinging the arms with left arm dominant 4) release of lag.

My favorite part of your post was:

"I agree with the concept you are addressing here."



Also ... yes on the arm lower and higher thing .... have to think about that more as a power move. It seems pretty obvious looking at Murray 2hbhs ... maybe will look at pros without lag.

 

[Dan R]

Liked everything about that post. I also like how you labeled the setting of the lag as it's own first phase. I have been saying for a while ... both fh and bh ... 1) torso rotation ... followed by 2) arms. Which is another way of saying ... torso phase and release phase. Actually ... on 2hbh ... using your added phase 1) slot/set lag 2) torso rotation 3) swinging the arms with left arm dominant 4) release of lag.

My favorite part of your post was:

"I agree with the concept you are addressing here."



Also ... yes on the arm lower and higher thing .... have to think about that more as a power move. It seems pretty obvious looking at Murray 2hbhs ... maybe will look at pros without lag.

Well . . . great minds think alike as they say . Only thing I'd add is that during that middle phase the forearm rotation is beginning - it doesn't all happen in the release phase. I'd say Murray has less forearm rotation than say Nishikori because he hits across the ball more and hits it flatter. I was watching Nishikori at the French Open and it looks to me like he's changed his backhand. His swing is shorter and he doesn't get his hands as far behind him as he used to.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Extra "snap" @02:50 ... great angle to see racquet lag

 

[ByeByePoly]

oh snap!!!

 

[a12345]

To get to the slot you pull with the right arm. Once in the slot you hit it like a left handed forehand.

Its pull with the right arm > then push with the left.

As you pull the right arm, the left arm should straighten up and the racket will go into the slot position.

 

[ByeByePoly]

To get to the slot you pull with the right arm. Once in the slot you hit it like a left handed forehand.

Its pull with the right arm > then push with the left.

As you pull the right arm, the left arm should straighten up and the racket will go into the slot position.

no

 

[a12345]

no

Yes, the right arm pulls, the left arm straightens, this causes the racket head to drop, and the wrist bows because the racket head has dropped. Youre now in the slot position.

Now you do a left handed forehand.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yes, the right arm pulls, the left arm straightens, this causes the racket head to drop, and the wrist bows because the racket head has dropped. Youre now in the slot position.

Now you do a left handed forehand.

still no

 

[a12345]

still no

Its how Rick Macci teaches it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Its how Rick Macci teaches it.

get your $ back ... hope you got a receipt.

 

[a12345]

 

[ByeByePoly]

Its how Rick Macci teaches it.

lol ... you were not kidding. At 00:10 in video below ... he demonstrates setting the 2hbh racquet lag just like he teaches the forehand. Pull ... and then racquet lags back. Any 5 minute review of a ATP player 2hbh shows lag is set before any rotation or pull ... actually usually timed with initial rotation.

Here ... I already did the initial 2hbh racquet lag review ... pics and video included for free.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...les-of-where-they-set-the-racquet-lag.646712/

 

[a12345]

lol ... you were not kidding. At 00:10 in video below ... he demonstrates setting the 2hbh racquet lag just like he teaches the forehand. Pull ... and then racquet lags back. Any 5 minute review of a ATP player 2hbh shows lag is set before any rotation or pull ... actually usually timed with initial rotation.

Here ... I already did the initial 2hbh racquet lag review ... pics and video included for free.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...les-of-where-they-set-the-racquet-lag.646712/

Not sure what you mean.

To get to the slot you can either just straight out drop the left hand down or you can pull the right hand forward.

I would argue it makes sense that the right hand guides the racket into position initially before the left hand takes over.

For example if you were to try and hit a high bouncing ball and wanted some steep lag it would be the pull of your right arm first that guides the racket into position to hit the ball before the left arm goes to hit it.