2nd Serve Pronation

[lendl lives]

Vin brings up some interesting points in the pronation thread. I think maybe this topic deserves its own thread however. I don't believe I pronate on my second serve. Pronation to me is the passage of the hand forward like a karate chop and then it twisting so the your palm faces the other court at contact. Clearly this is what I do on flat serves.

On second serves I don't believe I pronate. I think I just brush the ball. I believe i'm flicking or casting my wrist but it is more of fast diagnoal wave goodbye thing (or hello).

The motion vin describe would seem incredibly hard to time.
I've never really been clear about this.

 

[lendl lives]

actually now looking at pictures of my second serve. it looks like i actually am pronating. i have no idea how i'm doing it though.

as a side note. it seem like my right leg is coming forward and following through possibly too soon. is this right? it seems like alot of the pros keep their right leg back.

bungalo can i email you a pic?

 

[Bungalo Bill]

On second serves I don't believe I pronate. I think I just brush the ball. I believe i'm flicking or casting my wrist but it is more of fast diagnoal wave goodbye thing (or hello).

LOL, you guys just don't believe me.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

actually now looking at pictures of my second serve. it looks like i actually am pronating. i have no idea how i'm doing it though.

as a side note. it seem like my right leg is coming forward and following through possibly too soon. is this right? it seems like alot of the pros keep their right leg back.

bungalo can i email you a pic?

sure! usptapro@cox.net

 

[vin]

There's a thread that Marius often references when pronation comes up. In it is a post by sonicdeviant that I think has a pretty good analogy for the motion.

For a standard second serve toss, where the ball is somewhere near over your head, imagine you were going to hit the ball straight up with the side of your frame (equivelant to brushing up the back). Right around the point of contact, rotate your forearm to look at your watch.

Here's the relevant page of the thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=18490&page=2&pp=15

I know there's a lot of arguing about forced vs. natural pronation, but I think you can try this within the realm of understanding the motion and developing a feel for it without exaggerating it.

Just be careful because extreme pronation can cause injury. I looked into this a bit and what I came up with is on the second to last post on this page: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=34083&page=7&pp=15&highlight=pronation+impingement
If you read this thread from the begining, there's a lot of talk on pronation in it as well.

 

[lendl lives]

tks vin!

bungalo just sent it.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

There's a thread that Marius often references when pronation comes up.

Right, Vin.

I think that many amateur players are using only wrist snap or various brushing motions for their serves, without pronation. Others have been educated into pronation or perhaps discovered it naturally (not my case) . easitennis.com is describing pronation and wrist snap as being two of the possibilities.

I'd have to say that I'm still much more proficient in using pronation on my first serve than on my 2nd, be it kick or slice. I still have to work on this.

Bungalo Bill is right in that most of the pro players are not using wrist snap on serve and are using pronation (he presented quite convincing footage on Roddick, if I remember right), which is also in my opinion more effective.

 

[darkavgr]

There's a thread that Marius often references when pronation comes up. In it is a post by sonicdeviant that I think has a pretty good analogy for the motion.

For a standard second serve toss, where the ball is somewhere near over your head, imagine you were going to hit the ball straight up with the side of your frame (equivelant to brushing up the back). Right around the point of contact, rotate your forearm to look at your watch.

Here's the relevant page of the thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=18490&page=2&pp=15

I know there's a lot of arguing about forced vs. natural pronation, but I think you can try this within the realm of understanding the motion and developing a feel for it without exaggerating it.

Just be careful because extreme pronation can cause injury. I looked into this a bit and what I came up with is on the second to last post on this page: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=34083&page=7&pp=15&highlight=pronation+impingement
If you read this thread from the begining, there's a lot of talk on pronation in it as well.

I dont quite understand.
Sonicdeviant's post says that point of contact you pronate or turn you wrist to "check your watch".
For RH player, this wd seem a bit strange.
We're brushing the ball from left to right & to do this (i.e. checking the watch) wd effectively mean going AGAINST the flow of the brushing.
Duh?
Seems really really odd.

Maybe someone can enlighten?

thanks...darkavgr

 

[Marius_Hancu]

I dont quite understand.

Sonicdeviant's post says that point of contact you pronate or turn you wrist to "check your watch".
For RH player, this wd seem a bit strange.
We're brushing the ball from left to right & to do this (i.e. checking the watch) wd effectively mean going AGAINST the flow of the brushing.

Nope.

It will go with the flow of the brushing, because while checking the watch you continue to push for a very short time from left to right. You just turn the forearm such that the thumb rotates into the ball or towards the court, whatever. Then the follow through takes over and you end up with the racket on the left. That's on the first serve. On the kick, the racket stays more on your right side, then comes back to the left.

Check Sampras's serve with step by step in QuickTime at
http://www.tenniscruz.com/photo.htm
Great Shots section
check not only the serves, but also the S-V, don't remember which is the clearest shot.

 

[drakulie]

For those of you who have the 1999 Masters Final between Becker and Sampras...

I was watching it the other day and I believe it is after Sampras' very first service game...while waiting to return serve there is a good close-up Sampras taking a few service pratice swings, and you could clearly see him pronating. If you slow it down frame by frame it gives you a real clear picture of what he does on his serve. He first rotates his shoulders and then clearly pronates his arm.

 

[Ryoma]

I think you need to get the idea of what pronation means first. Extend your right hand in front of you with the palm facing up (your thumb should be pointing to the right). Now, rotate your hand anti-clockwise, so the palm is facing down (your thumb should be pointing to the left). That's what's called pronation. It's now up to you to incorporate this motion into your serve. I couldn't even imagine how anyone can serve without pronating.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

I couldn't even imagine how anyone can serve without pronating.

Oh, that's no big problem, I think I can brush the back of the ball from 7 to 1 and supinate (not sure why my smilies don't come up here), I just can't supinate the same angle I am pronating ...

 

[travisv]

ball contact and pronation in the serve

In reading the prior posts by sonicdeviant and bungalo bill I got to thinking about the serve motion and the contact with the ball. I searched through the threads and could not find a similiar question so I will ask it here.

When the ball is contacted in the serve should you try to keep it on your strings for as long as possible; so the body weight generated from the ground can be transfered into and compress the ball?

Also since Sampras had one of the higher spin ratios when serving did that mean he kept it on his strings longer. I did not know if there were any studies about this as far as the length of time the ball is compressed or the amount of compression a pro would put on it. It look at some pros serving it seems that Wayne Arthurs and Mark Philopossus have this type of serve technique. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Marius_Hancu]

When the ball is contacted in the serve should you try to keep it on your strings for as long as possible; so the body weight generated from the ground can be transfered into and compress the ball?

Also since Sampras had one of the higher spin ratios when serving did that mean he kept it on his strings longer. I did not know if there were any studies about this as far as the length of time the ball is compressed or the amount of compression a pro would put on it. It look at some pros serving it seems that Wayne Arthurs and Mark Philopossus have this type of serve technique. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks

I think that controlling the length of time the ball is in contact with the racket is practically impossible, taking into account the speed of the whole motion. OK, during the kick serve, you can extend this time wrt to the first serve, because you're working on a longer contact arc, I think.

However, there might be something similar to what you describe. easitennis.com has an interesting analysis which shows that you can provide topspin (i.e. forcing the ball to rotate from 6 to 12 o'clock) by "shearing". Shearing as described by easitennis.com (I guess Ray Brown) is friction that can appear between the ball and the racket when:

- the racket is inclined backwards from vertical, like a \o, and the ball is falling into it (o is the ball)

- the racket is inclined forward from vertical, like a /o, and you're jumping into the ball and attacking it into the court

- the racket is vertical like |o, still you have a high toss and the ball comes down with a lot of relative velocity wrt to the racket (say Graf or Lendl serving)

I hope you got that the various slashes represent the position of the racket from the vertical at time of impact for the serve.

Now Sampras was jumping into the court considerably. He also was using pronation. Now imagine the combined efect of those spins ...

In terms of speed of rotation, that's influenced by:

- the mass of the racket
- the speed of the racket, both linear and angular
- the mass of the ball
- the time of interaction, influenced of course by the angle of interaction (see above, it's different for each type of contact)
- the strings (thinner strings cut more into the ball)
- the elasticity and tension of the strings (guess lower ones will keep more the ball into their "catch" before trampolinning it)

I think Sampras generated the highest spin rotation/min, simply by the fact he was able to serve with such a fast motion. Also, his racket being heavier (400g, as per Nate Ferguson, his stringer), it was able to withstand better the contact with the ball (without wobbling, etc), thus the contact was more solid, and more friction and subsequently spin were produced.

 

[fastdunn]

I think that controlling the length of time the ball is in contact with the racket is practically impossible, taking into account the speed of the whole motion. OK, during the kick serve, you can extend this time wrt to the first serve, because you're working on a longer contact arc, I think.

Pronation increase the surface area the ball contacts which increases
spin. It appears to be doing something opposite of following the countour
of the ball but pronation actually touches more ball surface.

I'm not saying this as a tennis expert but as an engineer.
It's same mechanics as a mechanical gear spining against another gear.
Pronation promotes both power and spin naturally.
It's sort of similar mechanism as a classical forehand promotes
spin naturally (by keeping the head angle vertical, without brushing motion)

By the way, sampras' serve did not demonstrated "highest" spin to power
ratio. His had "ideal" ratio. You guys actually meant it but I just want to
clear that up.

 

[papa]

I know that this is gong to sound silly but I've used one thing that seems to get some pretty good results. Treat the racquet like a spear that your going to throw over the net - butt first of course. Sometimes visuals seem to work in learning the mechanics of a stroke.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

I know that this is gong to sound silly but I've used one thing that seems to get some pretty good results. Treat the racquet like a spear that your going to throw over the net - butt first of course. Sometimes visuals seem to work in learning the mechanics of a stroke.

This is not silly, this image is quite helpful in promoting pronation, because you'll be forced to pronate if you're coming with the butt straight to the ball, in order to put the face of the racket on the ball.

As a matter of fact, coming with the edge of the racket to the ball will also provide the highest speed through the air, which is quite important on first serves. Just what Rosewall was doing on his BH, which is much more rare nowadays though, but can be seen at:
http://www.tenniscruz_remove.com (remove _remove)
check
Great Shots, Backhand

 

[Marius_Hancu]

Pronation increase the surface area the ball contacts which increases
spin. It appears to be doing something opposite of following the countour
of the ball but pronation actually touches more ball surface.

It's same mechanics as a mechanical gear spining against another gear.

I think this is a very good analogy.

 

[lendl lives]

Bungalo did you get the email with the picture I sent you?

Not sure but it looks like I'm not extednig up into the ball enough. I've been trying to go up and get the ball a bit more lately, hitting in the air.

I was reading an old tennis magazine and some asked braden how to conceal the fact that they are going to hit a kicker. Braden said it was basciacally impossible to do. However when i look at Roger he seems to disgusie it very well. I'm not sure how he does it though. What is it with ViC Braden anyway? I saw rented a video on serving he did in the 80's and it looks like he has a 3.0 serve, if that. Is he just a great bull*******. Don't you have to a good (or at least respectable) player to be a good coach? Anyway I digresssssss...........

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Bungalo did you get the email with the picture I sent you?

Not sure but it looks like I'm not extednig up into the ball enough. I've been trying to go up and get the ball a bit more lately, hitting in the air.

I was reading an old tennis magazine and some asked braden how to conceal the fact that they are going to hit a kicker. Braden said it was basciacally impossible to do. However when i look at Roger he seems to disgusie it very well. I'm not sure how he does it though. What is it with ViC Braden anyway? I saw rented a video on serving he did in the 80's and it looks like he has a 3.0 serve, if that. Is he just a great bull*******. Don't you have to a good (or at least respectable) player to be a good coach? Anyway I digresssssss...........

Well Braden is first most a researcher/coach. No, a coach does not have to be a great player to be a good coach. Braden did play professional tennis but in the video his motion is more about demonstration then showing a world class serve. He had Tanner for that.

When you look at Federer on TV (or anyone) the camera angle does not give you any clue on what is coming from the toss unless it is dramatic. You really have to get to court side. Plus, very few people can disguise their serve with their toss so Braden is correct about being able to read what is coming. Especially at the club level.

Braden's style is to simplfy and demystify the sport of tennis. He is a keep it simple kind of guy, an excellent researcher and has contributed some of the best research in the sport of tennis. Has certain characteristics of his teaching moved on? Absolutely! But the foundation is still there and will most likely always be there.

Let me check on your email. Also, make sure you are extending at the elbow. When you mix in the other muscle groups it is easy to lose focus on this part of the body.

 

[travisv]

racquet angle and pronation

I was writing to ask a question about the racquet angle during pronation. In viewing some videos of various players the racquet is on edge going into contact. My question is does pronation occur when the ball is on the strings or right after the ball is leaving the strings.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

I was writing to ask a question about the racquet angle during pronation. In viewing some videos of various players the racquet is on edge going into contact. My question is does pronation occur when the ball is on the strings or right after the ball is leaving the strings.

Elementary, my dear Mr. Watson (smilie here, not sure why they don't work any more on my system, even if not disabled at posting).

On the first serve, where things are more clear, for many pros, the racket goes towards the ball with its edge thus kind of perpendicular to the baseline (this provides the highest speed through the air), up until about one foot before the contact, when they start pronating.

First, in order to bring the racket to face the ball at least in part, then to continue through that ball with that gear-box pronation motion (I like the analogy mentioned by fastdunn in this thread) , which produces additional friction, rotational movement and thus spin to the ball.

Check serves by Sampras and Henin, at
http://www.tenniscruz.com
Great Shots section
I think those in the S-V are clearer than those in the Serve section.
Use slow-mo in QuickTime if you want to see this degree of detail.

 

[finchy]

i'd just like to input some of my personal experiences about this subject.

on wednesday, i was playing a doubles match and came across a good looking smash. i took it on as a serve (i was on the right side of the court) and sliced it wide left. not knowingly, i came from left to right across the ball but very quickly after, my arm pronated! i was rather perplexed at that moment. normally, on slices, i always supinate my arm, never pronate because the different forces/directions my arm would go.

come to think about it, i only pronate during flat serves with an eastern bh grip. i supinate on topspin and slices. after my shoulder injury, i never wanted to try anything else risky concerning my serve (which actually was the major cause of the injury in the first place) because i didnt want to mess my body up again. i guess i could test them out over the weekend.

EDIT: back to my experience, i think i pronated on that slice smash because of the major racquethead speed i had and pronating allowed it to go faster (which brings up the arguement that why would you increase racquethead speed, from pronation, after contact of the ball, when you are supposed to reach maximum racquethead speed when you contact the ball?) anyways, it was probably the most comfortable position that my arm allowed. most of all, it felt completely natural!