3.5 or 4.0?

M

MelissaS

New User
I played USTA women's doubles in 2016 for the first time. I self-rated 4.0 because most of my friends whom I socially play with are 4.0 and they considered me as being at the same level. However, I got nervous and so tight at every match because of my inexperience. At the end of the year, I was rated down to 3.5.

Now, I'm invited to a new 4.0 women's team. The captain asked me to appeal for a 4.0 because she wants to invite some mid to lower 3.5 players. I didn't play in 2017 at all, so I'm eligible to appeal. According to TR, I'm currently 3.5000. I think I have higher chance of being granted. The team I'm invited to will be a weaker team since many of the players are 4.0 by appeal.

I want to gain experience and develop self-esteem at 3.5 but I'm afraid I might feel I want more challenge once I get used to handling the pressure of the match. I can be one of the important players on a 3.5 team, whereas I would be taken lightly at 4.0.

My question is
1. Should I appeal and join 4.0 or stay at 3.5?
2. Is it harder to be bumped up from 3.5 to 4.0 than staying at 4.0? (considering that fact I will be playing on the weak 4.0 team)

Let me know your thoughts. Thank you.
 
I'd check, but it's likely you can play on a 4.0 team as a 3.5. You definitely can in Mid-Atlantic. I'm a 4.0 on several 4.5 teams.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
Why would you need to appeal up? You can be a 3.5 and play on a 4.0 usta team anyway, can't you? If you are computer rated at 3.5 then that's what you are right now.

It sounds to me like you have the skill to be on the 4.0 team but need some work on your mind. The only way to get that is by match experience at the level you want. :) If you are a 4.0 then your score will naturally reflect that with wins rather than appealing anyway. I say go for it because even if you are taken likely it won't be for long if you get better. Read Brad Gilbert's book, Winning Ugly for some tips on getting your head straight in matches.
 
As others have said I'm not sure why she wants you to appeal up in order to play 4.0. Unless she just doesn't want anyone on the roster showing as a 3.5 but that can't be right since she's going to invite some lower 3.5's. I'd consider playing both if you can coordinate it.
 
I hadn't ever heard of that but it makes sense. Tough call then for the OP. I'd play where you feel the most comfortable. If you play 3.5 this season and get some confidence back then you can always move up and play 4.0 next time.
 
Last edited:
I faced a similar situation when I first started playing USTA league. When I self-rated, the questionnaire put me at 3.5 since I had some high school experience, and the people I was playing with agreed 3.5 would be a good fit. I have a crummy mental game and was still quite rusty, so after the first year got my rating bumped down to 3.0. I decided to keep playing on the same team because 1) I was too lazy to search for a 3.0 team to play on and 2) I thought playing at 3.5 would help me improve faster. I gradually got better, though I think it took 2 years to get my computer rating to bump up to 3.5. Definitely don't regret my decision, the team was a good fit because it was very laid back and the matches were always competitive (I never felt out of place or grossly outmatched).

Reading your current feelings though, I'm not sure I would recommend doing the same. It sounds like you want to grow some confidence and learn how to play under pressure, so playing at 3.5 may be a better move than playing up at 4.0 and losing most of the time. Even if you don't get bumped up to 4.0 next year, you can still play up then or whenever you feel like 3.5 is no longer challenging. It sounds like there is a league rule that requires at least 1/2 the team be at level or something to that effect, but if you're a strong 3.5 I would think a captain would want your on their team.
 
I recommend playing for a 3.5 team. You will gain valuable experience learning how to win, to close out matches you "should" win. And it'll be fun playing on a team that can compete for a league title and beyond.

I suspect that players who play up give themselves an "out" mentally, so they have an excuse when they lose. And then losing may become a habit.
 
Michael Erdely said:
I'd check, but it's likely you can play on a 4.0 team as a 3.5. You definitely can in Mid-Atlantic. I'm a 4.0 on several 4.5 teams.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
just tell the capt of the 4.0 team that you're planning on playing on a 3.5 team... and play both. that's what i did for a long time (played 3.5/4.0, then 4.0/4.5, and have played 4.5/5.0)
 
struggle said:
Don't appeal up. Ever. Just play up.

If that doesn't fit your captains MO, then I'd find another team.
Click to expand...
Yep, play up as a 3.5. Take advantage of being a 3.5 especially if your skillset is a 4.0.

Play on a 3.5 team and dominate and play on the 4.0 team. Play on a 7.5 combo team as the 3.5, play on a 8.0 mixed team with a 4.5 guy.

There is no need to appeal up to 4.0 to play on a 4.0 team. Let the USTA system bump you up. Playing on that many teams your nervousness and tightness will eventually work itself out.

Beating up on 3.5s as a 3.5 will give you the confidence you need to play in other leagues.
 
MelissaS said:
1. Should I appeal and join 4.0 or stay at 3.5?
Click to expand...
This is challenging because no one here can answer this better than you. I would say that if you got bumped down then it's probably best to play down. You'll have less pressure on you, and that might help build your confidence. That said, if you're actually able to compete at the 4.0 level then I would try the appeal*.

*This is assuming you have to appeal up to play. As noted, there is a limit on the number of lower level players that can be on a team, but if your team hasn't hit the limit just play up as 3.5. It won't change your actual dynamic rating either way.

leech said:
Some leagues allow only a limited number of roster spots for those playing up a level.
Click to expand...
This has been the rule for both sections I've played in. Majority (or more) have to be "at-level".

MelissaS said:
Is it harder to be bumped up from 3.5 to 4.0 than staying at 4.0?
Click to expand...
My understanding is that your rating doesn't actually change from an appeal. Remember your rating is more than 3.5 or 4.0. There's a detailed number behind it, which if you got bumped down is probably something in the 3.9s.

MelissaS said:
According to TR, I'm currently 3.5000.
Click to expand...
Do not trust that.

Edit:
MRfStop said:
There is no need to appeal up to 4.0 to play on a 4.0 team
Click to expand...
My assumption is the captain is asking her to appeal up because she'll likely be able to do so. This would allow them to put one more 3.5 on the team.
 
ShaunS said:
This is challenging because no one here can answer this better than you. I would say that if you got bumped down then it's probably best to play down. You'll have less pressure on you, and that might help build your confidence. That said, if you're actually able to compete at the 4.0 level then I would try the appeal*.

*This is assuming you have to appeal up to play. As noted, there is a limit on the number of lower level players that can be on a team, but if your team hasn't hit the limit just play up as 3.5. It won't change your actual dynamic rating either way.


This has been the rule for both sections I've played in. Majority (or more) have to be "at-level".


My understanding is that your rating doesn't actually change from an appeal. Remember your rating is more than 3.5 or 4.0. There's a detailed number behind it, which if you got bumped down is probably something in the 3.9s.


Do not trust that.

Edit:

My assumption is the captain is asking her to appeal up because she'll likely be able to do so. This would allow them to put one more 3.5 on the team.
Click to expand...

If you are a 3.501......you are a 4.0. Just to clarify.......you don't get be a 3.99 and still remain a 3.5.

So, a 3.5 is a 3.500000000000000000 or less, more likely 3.4999999999999999 or less.

Cheers!
 
MRfStop said:
If that is the case then play on a team that allows you to play 4.0 as a 3.5.
Click to expand...
She said the reason she played 4.0 was because her friends were on the team. Honestly if she's going to play on a 4.0 team anyway the appeal doesn't hurt her in any fashion, and this way she gets to play with her friends.
 
MRfStop said:
Other than missing out on playing more tennis that could help her build confidence.
Click to expand...
We're not disagreeing that it will limit her *potential options*. However, if she's only going to play on one team, and that's at the 4.0 level then she might as well appeal up and play with her friends.

My ideal solution would be to play in both the 3.5 and 4.0 leagues. It'll require more time, but it's something that has been very beneficial for my game.
 
Play on the 4.0 team. Youll be fine just work on relaxing.

Quite a few women at my club do it, they were in the same situation but some wanted to stay at 3.5 and others appealed up.
 
Michael Erdely said:
I'd check, but it's likely you can play on a 4.0 team as a 3.5. You definitely can in Mid-Atlantic. I'm a 4.0 on several 4.5 teams.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
There are only four 3.5 seats on her team. She wants to fill those spots with the players who are low 3.5. She needs more 4.0 players. That's why she made some other strong 3.5 players appeal and successfully bump them up to 4.0
 
MelissaS said:
There are only four 3.5 seats on her team. She wants to fill those spots with the players who are low 3.5. She needs more 4.0 players. That's why she made some other strong 3.5 players appeal and successfully bump them up to 4.0
Click to expand...
Interesting. Never heard of limiting lower rated players. Where are you located?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
MelissaS said:
I played USTA women's doubles in 2016 for the first time. I self-rated 4.0 because most of my friends whom I socially play with are 4.0 and they considered me as being at the same level. However, I got nervous and so tight at every match because of my inexperience. At the end of the year, I was rated down to 3.5.

Now, I'm invited to a new 4.0 women's team. The captain asked me to appeal for a 4.0 because she wants to invite some mid to lower 3.5 players. I didn't play in 2017 at all, so I'm eligible to appeal. According to TR, I'm currently 3.5000. I think I have higher chance of being granted. The team I'm invited to will be a weaker team since many of the players are 4.0 by appeal.

I want to gain experience and develop self-esteem at 3.5 but I'm afraid I might feel I want more challenge once I get used to handling the pressure of the match. I can be one of the important players on a 3.5 team, whereas I would be taken lightly at 4.0.

My question is
1. Should I appeal and join 4.0 or stay at 3.5?
2. Is it harder to be bumped up from 3.5 to 4.0 than staying at 4.0? (considering that fact I will be playing on the weak 4.0 team)

Let me know your thoughts. Thank you.
Click to expand...

I was in similar situation but with 3.0 to 3.5. With me, I saw all my friends whom I considered playing peers moved up but I stayed 3.0. I didn't appeal but just played up a bunch. Others can explain the math better than me but basically if you want to move up and you're only playing same level players, you really won't move or won't move as quickly unless you're winning a lot of 6-0 6-0. (Basically someone told me play up and only play singles to move up.) In my area (I'm in So Cal too but we could be in different regions) it's VERY rare to appeal up. The only A ratings seem to be older players, someone who got injured e.g. who no longer want to play 4.5 or whatever and they are appealing so they can play down. As for being bumped 3.5 to 4.0 being harder because you're playing for a weaker team -- I think it won't because YOUR team doesn't matter, what matters is YOUR OPPONENTS. So if you are the weaker player playing against someone super strong and you lose but maybe you push her to a tie break, or you get a bunch of games off her, your rating will still go up. Basically if you want to move up you need to be in situations where you are getting matches in against higher rated players and you hold your own/do well.

It does sound like where you are there are plenty of A rated players (now I'm super curious where you are!) so it wouldn't be bad socially. I know in my area the A rated players kind of have a target on their back, like it's noticeable that she's an A vs C rated player. People just kind of notice/watch more. If you're already feeling iffy or self conscious about playing up, it could be just the kind of attention you don't want. My vote would be to see if she can get enough level rated 4.0s to let you play on her team as a 3.5. I know in my area there just aren't tons of 4.0 playing on teams so it can be hard. Every team seems to be at exactly 50% of the lower level playing up.

Also as for being "one of the important players on a 3.5 team vs taken lightly on 4.0" -- I would say "show don't tell" here. Just play and contribute and let your results speak for themselves. Sometimes just being available on a day when nobody else can play makes you the hero of the day:-)
 
Michael Erdely said:
Interesting. Never heard of limiting lower rated players. Where are you located?
Click to expand...
Of all the sections I know the rule for, they have a limit on the number who "play up". It is left up to the sections to decide though, so apparently some have left it open.

DailyG&T said:
Others can explain the math better than me but basically if you want to move up and you're only playing same level players, you really won't move or won't move as quickly unless you're winning a lot of 6-0 6-0.
Click to expand...
It's important to remember that while two people may both be rated "3.5" there's another, more specific number behind that. Hypothetically, if you have player A at 3.45 and player B at 3.25. The system will estimate that player B is going to lose, but they'll win 7 games (I don't know the actual #).

DailyG&T explains it, but I'll take a second stab at it here:
If player B keeps the match closer than that, and loses 7-5, 6-4 their rating is going to increase even though they lost. There's certainly no need to win 6-0, 6-0 to advance. I've probably won less than 5 matches at 6-1, 6-1 or better in the last few years, and I went up a level.

I believe I know why some people feel like they "get stuck" at the top of their rating level. First, it's tough to really crush an opponent who isn't as good as you, we naturally all tend to let up. So, if you're very highly rated in your level (let's say 3.49 in the 3.5) then the system expects you to basically win every single match. Further it will expect you to win some by a lot. This is why I advocate for people to "play up" when you're looking to move up(as DailyG&T mentions). Obviously getting to see the better opponents should help your game, but it also lets the system get a look at your ability to compete with higher people. For some players they'll just never have the killer instinct to crush inferior opponents, but they can play their best against strong competition.
 
ShaunS said:
I believe I know why some people feel like they "get stuck" at the top of their rating level. First, it's tough to really crush an opponent who isn't as good as you, we naturally all tend to let up. So, if you're very highly rated in your level (let's say 3.49 in the 3.5) then the system expects you to basically win every single match. Further it will expect you to win some by a lot.
Click to expand...

Haha. This is the reason I'm still a 4.0 exactly! I win most of my matches, but never really demolish people.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
Strong 3.5 team or Weak team 4.0?
Replies
10
Views
1K
schmke
schmke
T
4.0 stuck on a team with mostly 3.5's
Replies
41
Views
4K
jc4.0
jc4.0
Cindysphinx
The Unfixable Self-Rate Error
Replies
36
Views
4K
10sjunkie
1
S
1st USTA league play, am I at risk?
Replies
8
Views
1K
struggle
S
Cindysphinx
It's Official: 3.5/3.5 pairs are stronger than 4.0/3.0 pairs
Replies
17
Views
2K
bodieq
B
Back
Top