3.5 vs 4.5 match ( 4.5 can use conti grip only )

Curious said:
Yes this is it I realised.
Although I guess a smooth timing would be the best, is it a good idea to practice turning as soon as knowing which side the ball is coming? Someone recently quoted a famous coach say “there’s no such thing as too early preparation”.
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You have considered/discussed this topic a lot.

Recently quoted ... makes sense to me:

- too early better than late

- just in time better than too early

Suggestion ... I actually did this. Go watch ATP match (or even practice) video with camera angle from behind them. Watch when they turn back ... and note where the bounce. There is no exact correlation ... tennis is dynamic, different bounces, spin, pace, surface ... but I didn't see anyone running around with racquet up by net other than Goffin running wide for a fh. Oh yeah ... difference between being turned sideways because running for wide ball vs timing of unit turn on neutral ball.

Maybe you find something different, but for the most part the unit turn was timed pretty close to the bounce.
 
Curious said:
Unfortunately I think I can say bounce without turning!:D
Anyway I’ll work hard on improving my perception and reaction time .
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Say "turn" at the bounce ... no ... that's too late ... need to be turned by the bounce. You are screwed. :p

Check with you tomorrow ... need to watch our own version of country on fire.
 
ByeByePoly said:
You have considered/discussed this topic a lot.

Recently quoted ... makes sense to me:

- too early better than late

- just in time better than too early

Suggestion ... I actually did this. Go watch ATP match (or even practice) video with camera angle from behind them. Watch when they turn back ... and note where the bounce. There is no exact correlation ... tennis is dynamic, different bounces, spin, pace, surface ... but I didn't see anyone running around with racquet up by net other than Goffin running wide for a fh. Oh yeah ... difference between being turned sideways because running for wide ball vs timing of unit turn on neutral ball.

Maybe you find something different, but for the most part the unit turn was timed pretty close to the bounce.
Click to expand...
That's the thing imo, because its dynamic the best thing you can do is hit thousands of balls in dynamic conditions and let the unconscious mind adapt, a side from maybe 1 or two things max in your mind in the "conscious competence" stage. I think we could focus on "early prep" for a whole year alone
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Each system as pros and cons. You outlined the cons of the Conti game. But the cons of yours is that, no matter what the score, your opponent isn't going to hit a higher-level shot. So that too is not realistic because a higher-level player will hit higher-quality shots.
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Not really. If i were to play someone higher level than me and get 30-0 by default i might try to hit higher level shots, ie winners, to increase my chance. I would have TWO chances to try for a winner n put the higher player in a big hole.

What u call "higher level shot" to me is just higher risk or lower percentage, thats all.

While the lower player has those chances, the higher player knows he has much limited option. He has less chance to screw up. Less willing to go closer to the lines for example.
 
StringSnapper said:
That's the thing imo, because its dynamic the best thing you can do is hit thousands of balls in dynamic conditions and let the unconscious mind adapt, a side from maybe 1 or two things max in your mind in the "conscious competence" stage. I think we could focus on "early prep" for a whole year alone
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So keen to work on this quick turn stuff, I arranged another match for tonight, I know it’s not the smartest thing for the knees but after some leg workout at lunch break I feel pretty good now.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
The top player at our club and a high level coach says he always starts his tennis coaching with the slice. You have to master that before he moves you on to topspin. Slice is a basic to master. If you have a bullet proof slice, you can get yourself out of all sorts of predicaments.
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Well duh!
If I have a bullet proof ANYTHING, I can get myself out of any situations.

:p:D

That's what "bullet proof" means.

You guys are funny.
 
Curious said:
@ByeByePoly @S&V-not_dead_yet

what’s your theory on this? I find it very interesting. You know it’s such a common feature at low levels of rec tennis.
If I understand the reason well maybe I can fix it more easily.
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@Curious ball watching is a natural tendency, we all do it. To get away from it is to just habitualise a turn until it is done subconsciously. Kind of like getting caned by a sergeant everytime you aren't standing bolt upright until you just learn to stand at attention all the time. Most people learn this with a coach yelling at them over and over but there is plenty of exercises out there, like the one where you look at your opponents racquet ( or the ball machine) and call out to your self the millisecond you realise it is either a forehand or backhand. Then after calling out immediately change grip, and turn. Do this exercise until you do it naturally.



Tomaz explaiantion is @2:09
 
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@ByeByePoly @S&V-not_dead_yet

Here’s some sample forehands from tonight. Still have that freezing between when the opponent hits the ball and it bounces on my side. So incredibly difficult to break this habit. I’ve been talking to another 4.5 friend of mine and decided to practice the quick turn every day 100 times. Racket in my hand, ready position, split step-turn-change grip. Then I’ll do it in front of big screen tv with videos of pros practicing , will try to time it as they do it. We have a mission!


 
StringSnapper said:
That's the thing imo, because its dynamic the best thing you can do is hit thousands of balls in dynamic conditions and let the unconscious mind adapt, a side from maybe 1 or two things max in your mind in the "conscious competence" stage. I think we could focus on "early prep" for a whole year alone
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But he has hit 1000s of balls and his mind hasn’t adapted. I think a few electrodes for a month and he/we will put this problem behind him/us. 8-B (y)
 
Keendog said:
@Curious ball watching is a natural tendency, we all do it. To get away from it is to just habitualise a turn until it is done subconsciously. Kind of like getting caned by a sergeant everytime you aren't standing bolt upright until you just learn to stand at attention all the time. Most people learn this with a coach yelling at them over and over but there is plenty of exercises out there, like the one where you look at your opponents racquet ( or the ball machine) and call out to your self the millisecond you realise it is either a forehand or backhand. Then after calling out immediately change grip, and turn. Do this exercise until you do it naturally.



Tomaz explaiantion is @2:09
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I have no problem going with caning instead of electrodes.8-B

Edit: I was enjoying imagining yelling at Curious "turn soldier" ... I forgot to say I agree with you/Thomaz ... a key "start the turn" point is a great idea to break the cycle. Later ... would hope all of it (including mostly ready by bounce) would fade into smooth and situational, and not regimented.
 
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Curious said:
Yeah I hate playing when it’s windy. It was around 12mph but enough to irritate me.
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it's great for footwork training! forces you to keep moving until you're just about to hit (vs. wait then hit)
but yeah, not very satisfying... i've played in 20+mph winds...
kinda comical, but a good exercise nonetheless...
 
Curious said:
I thought I should try to make it at least interesting for him. How else can I convince him to play me otherwise? You know lower level players are not that cool!:)
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i presumed all players are doing that normally (eg adjusting their play style to make a game more competitive if they've just won with bagels and sticks)
eg. in ground stroke games my 5.0 buddy will typically let me take the initiative first, and hit all feeds to my fh... so he can work on hitting balls out of the corners (or just work on different shots)...
and he still wins..
 
Curious said:
I think because he puts placement and consistency above everything else. I can ask him your question though. ( he said he struggled with the forehand slice, felt weird ).
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watching the vid, i'm surprised you mostly his to bh...
i know when i've been the "conti grip" only guy, despite channeling my inner niculescu, i struggle hitting the fh slice (compared to all other groundstrokes), because i never practice it... i can always get it back, but it's tough (for me) to knife back (like my 1hbh), so it tends to float/sit-up (like i saw yellow shirt guy doing)... but you kept going to his bh :P
 
user92626 said:
Well duh!
If I have a bullet proof ANYTHING, I can get myself out of any situations.

:p:D

That's what "bullet proof" means.

You guys are funny.
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It is very hard to hit a topspin shot from below the knees no matter how bullet proof it is. It is very hard to hit a topspin shot when you are chasing and stretched out no matter how bullet proof it is. Slice can be hit from all ball heights and on the stretch. If it's bullet proof, it will go low over the net and skid low on the bounce making it very hard to attack.

I did not use "bullet proof" to mean you can hit it in all situations and that it was safe from attack. I meant it was reliable and consistent in the situations it works best for. Maybe I should have used a different term.
 
nyta2 said:
watching the vid, i'm surprised you mostly his to bh...
i know when i've been the "conti grip" only guy, despite channeling my inner niculescu, i struggle hitting the fh slice (compared to all other groundstrokes), because i never practice it... i can always get it back, but it's tough (for me) to knife back (like my 1hbh), so it tends to float/sit-up (like i saw yellow shirt guy doing)... but you kept going to his bh :p
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If I'm playing Conti only against my wife I'll actually run around my FH to hit BH. Off the BH wing I am much more facile at deep slice, drop shots, defensive lobs in conti grip. Only thing I'm good at on the FH side is OH's and volleys with conti grip. My deep FH slice off the FH side needs work.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
If I'm playing Conti only against my wife I'll actually run around my FH to hit BH. Off the BH wing I am much more facile at deep slice, drop shots, defensive lobs in conti grip. Only thing I'm good at on the FH side is OH's and volleys with conti grip. My deep FH slice off the FH side needs work.
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yeah, i feel more comfortable on bh slice side too... that said i'll force myself to hit a slice fh, for the practice of it... i don't have a good feel for the deeper contact, and controlling the fh slice face angle... but when i get it right, i can knife it better than my bh
 
nyta2 said:
yeah, i feel more comfortable on bh slice side too... that said i'll force myself to hit a slice fh, for the practice of it... i don't have a good feel for the deeper contact, and controlling the fh slice face angle... but when i get it right, i can knife it better than my bh
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Yeah it's a consistency thing. When i get it right it's pretty sweet but when I get it wrong it just floats and is pickings.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
It is very hard to hit a topspin shot from below the knees no matter how bullet proof it is. It is very hard to hit a topspin shot when you are chasing and stretched out no matter how bullet proof it is. Slice can be hit from all ball heights and on the stretch. If it's bullet proof, it will go low over the net and skid low on the bounce making it very hard to attack.

I did not use "bullet proof" to mean you can hit it in all situations and that it was safe from attack. I meant it was reliable and consistent in the situations it works best for. Maybe I should have used a different term.
Click to expand...
I think you're showing your age when you rely exclusively on slicing, mister. :)

I learned the slice in a week and have been using it since without any obsession (a sign that it's decent :)) My slice doesn't "kill" any opponent my level, same as Federer's slice, Nadal's slice against their opponents. The slice isn't a go-to thing for winning points. Top spin FH, BH, serve, volley are.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
It is very hard to hit a topspin shot from below the knees no matter how bullet proof it is. It is very hard to hit a topspin shot when you are chasing and stretched out no matter how bullet proof it is. Slice can be hit from all ball heights and on the stretch. If it's bullet proof, it will go low over the net and skid low on the bounce making it very hard to attack.

I did not use "bullet proof" to mean you can hit it in all situations and that it was safe from attack. I meant it was reliable and consistent in the situations it works best for. Maybe I should have used a different term.
Click to expand...
yes hitting topspin requires more time, and typically better footwork and conditioning... with presumably the reward of being able to take a full swing with high margin... (for more pace with the added safety of spin)
slice is more versatile, but limits how full you can swing and how much pace you put on the ball
 
user92626 said:
Not really. If i were to play someone higher level than me and get 30-0 by default i might try to hit higher level shots, ie winners, to increase my chance. I would have TWO chances to try for a winner n put the higher player in a big hole.

What u call "higher level shot" to me is just higher risk or lower percentage, thats all.

While the lower player has those chances, the higher player knows he has much limited option. He has less chance to screw up. Less willing to go closer to the lines for example.
Click to expand...

True. But your opponent is not going to hit a better shot because she's up 30-0 [unless she uses the score as an opportunity to go for broke or at least hit a lot more aggressively than she usually does].
 
Great example here. Nishikori really turns and takes the racket back immediately when the hitting partner hits the ball. But obviously if I do it as quickly as he does I’ll look ridiculous no? given the pace of balls I get at my level??


 
user92626 said:
I think you're showing your age when you rely exclusively on slicing, mister. :)

I learned the slice in a week and have been using it since without any obsession (a sign that it's decent :)) My slice doesn't "kill" any opponent my level, same as Federer's slice, Nadal's slice against their opponents. The slice isn't a go-to thing for winning points. Top spin FH, BH, serve, volley are.
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I don't rely on slices at all. I'm just saying it's valuable to be good at Conti grip shots especially if you play doubles where the topspin FH and BH are far too overrated. i spend 90% of my doubles play in Conti grip. In singles they are usually rescue and approach shots which have value.

And as you say, it's easy to learn so there is no excuse to not be good at it.

And as to winning points with it, i recall a doubles match with a 4.5 player that had a really great slice approach shot. Thing barely bounced and skidded hard. It won him a ton of points in doubles since all you could do was hit it flat and up and that was death in doubles.

Again I'm not saying you should spend every moment in life in conti grip but it's a good practice session once in a while. More tools for the tool box. There may come a day where you get an opponent who handles every high topspin ball with aplomb but can't hit a low ball to save his life.
 
Speaking of handicap, i played a set vs a 5.0 the other day. I have already played 3 single sets and a double set. he was fresh and younger. so he gave me 30-0 for every game, which is huge. i won but not too proud haha.
 
ptuanminh said:
Speaking of handicap, i played a set vs a 5.0 the other day. I have already played 3 single sets and a double set. he was fresh and younger. so he gave me 30-0 for every game, which is huge. i won but not too proud haha.
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Good stuff. 30-0 ahead is great huh? Just one more point and the other guy is in deep doodoo.

But what was your mindset? Your strategy or general idea for this game?
 
Curious said:
Then maybe you should try a 15-0 handicap next time.;)
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There's still one step in between. 30-0 on one's serve, 15-0 on the other's serve.


I have played alot of these. Many variations too. Yesterday I played with this friend, who's taking lessons and believing her tennis has improved.

This time we tried: she can win in the normal way or simply stay in the rally for 4 shots of her own, which prevents grinding and too much running given I'm much stronger and more consistent. She really believed she could win. She thought it'd be the same as the exchange in doubles. LOL. She couldn't get a game from me :)

Although i'm better than my friend, in this game I felt I had to play my best tennis to win!!!!!! Keep everything tight.
 
user92626 said:
Good stuff. 30-0 ahead is great huh? Just one more point and the other guy is in deep doodoo.

But what was your mindset? Your strategy or general idea for this game?
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Of course its great but i was very tired (it was my 4th set) and the guy is young with a game of variety, a better serve, very offensive FH.
I know i have a better BH so the mindset is going to his BH as much as possible, praying i win 2 points in a row that way.
 
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