3 Biggest Stroke Technique Differences between Pros & Most Players?

[Chas Tennis]

For ATP pros vs average men & WTA pros vs average women, specify ATP or WTA -

What are the most significant stroke technique characteristics that the ATP and WTA players are using well but that most average players aren't using or using well enough? List up to 3 in order of importance.

Any supporting characteristics for the stroke are interesting as well, conditioning or positioning, etc.

Examples,

ATP players
#1 - most ATP pros have higher respiratory capacity so that they are rarely short of breath during their strokes. (supporting characteristic at the time of the stroke).
#2 - most players always keep two feet on the ground throughout their ground strokes.
#3 - most players condition their muscles for speed using plyometrics.

WTA players
#1 - most take their rackets farther back for a longer acceleration to impact.
#2 - most use the muscle 'reflex response' for greater racket head speed.
#3 - most train muscles for endurance to perform well for a 3 hour match.

ATP Players
#1 - most keep a relaxed arm during the X & Y parts of the strokes.
#2 - most use fast twitch muscles throughout their stroke acceleration.
#3 - most use power from their legs for racket head speed by increasing the body turn speed.

WTA Players
#1 - most impact the ball with a relaxed wrist/wrists.
#2 - most have a large upper body turn angle.
#3 - most look at the racket as it approaches the ball.

Examples could be too specific......what do you think?

 

[sureshs]

#2 - most players always keep two feet on the ground throughout their ground strokes.

Chas, I found this in an email from tennisplayer.net very recently:

More and more the modern pro game is played in the air and that’s especially true on the forehand where top players now routinely make contact with both feet elevated off the court.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/teaching_systems/john_yandell/forehand_torso_rotation/



How frequently do you think this happens? Is it really routine? I could not see this on TV but maybe it is visible only in slow-mo?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Chas, I found this in an email from tennisplayer.net very recently:

More and more the modern pro game is played in the air and that’s especially true on the forehand where top players now routinely make contact with both feet elevated off the court.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/teaching_systems/john_yandell/forehand_torso_rotation/



How frequently do you think this happens? Is it really routine? I could not see this on TV but maybe it is visible only in slow-mo?

I don't know the stats but I'd guess that often when ATP pros want to hit heavy pace they jump off the ground. 20% ? For that kind of stats, I never consider any strokes where the players are pressured, which leaves out a large percentage of strokes. Watch Nisshikori and use the DVR stop action single frame.

If you want to get a quick idea of the stats define a reasonable criteria that selects randomly and look at 10 strokes. If you get 8 or 9 of type A, chances are type A is it. If it matters keep measuring.......

Often for some stat issues a Google search for pictures will do. ATP forehand impact 2016 pictures
https://www.google.com/search?q=ATP+forehand+impact+2016+pictures&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I don't get an answer from that search. Better to look at videos or TV.

The thread is intended to hear some opinions on what the existing differences are. My examples were not intended to list the likely answers. I formed my opinion for the top two some time ago. One is a biomechanical principle, more general than the examples, and the other is similar to one of the examples. 3rd?

For those things that can be seen by eye, look over 6 or 8 courts of players. You can see some slower characteristics. A few of the best players on those courts may have strokes more like the ATP or WTA. Imagine side-by-side comparisons for things that can be seen by eye. (I look over courts because many years ago a friend of mine said that you could really tell the 'self taught' players, with their variety, by looking over many courts of tennis players. He was right. )

 

[sureshs]

^^^ I also think that when the ball is in the strike zone and the ATP player is in full control and wants to punish the ball, he will be off the air, or rather the rotational forces will force him off the ground naturally.

What about WTA?

 

[Disgruntled Worker]

I need help on how to hit an "ATP forehand". I don't think I'll ever play the "modern" game.

 

[heninfan99]

Check out Santoro's forehand, he has wins over slam winniers Djokovic, Safin etc & made 10 million in prize money

 

[TCF]

content not found

 

[ojo rojo]

Check out Santoro's forehand, he has wins over slam winniers Djokovic, Safin etc & made 10 million in prize money

Which side is the forehand!

 

[heninfan99]

Which side is the forehand!

The right side.

 

[ojo rojo]

The right side.

Funny.. he feeds with single right hand but on the slice the racket ends up being held by the left hand only at the end of the stroke. Peculiar and fantastic. Love Santoro.

 

[Lance L]

Check out Santoro's forehand, he has wins over slam winniers Djokovic, Safin etc & made 10 million in prize money

Hold on. He has two handed volleys, on both sides! That is wild.

 

[heninfan99]

Hold on. He has two handed volleys, on both sides! That is wild.

Yeah. Very cool.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Santoro is very interesting but his strokes are, by definition, off topic.

 

[Chas Tennis]

3 Biggest Stroke Technique Differences between Pros & Most Players?

The two characteristic that stand out to me as widespread and important are

1) Stretch Shorten Cycle. Amateur players make less use of the stretch shorten cycle in their strokes.

2) Upper Body Turn. Amateurs have less upper body turn than high level players. That is, amateur players do not have as much upper body turn in the take back and forward swing. As seen by the shoulder girdle, high level ground strokes tend to have roughly a 90° take back and roughly a 90° forward swing to impact. #2 is related to #1, the stretch shorten cycle. Lack of upper body turn is the main thing that I observe when looking over several courts of players on public courts. I believe this is what is meant by saying that amateur players 'arm the ball'.

3) to be determined....

 

[JohnYandell]

Regarding "jumping." It's not really that. It's an explosion upward to control contact height. Some pro balls would bounce over a player's shoulder or higher.

 

[tlm]

The forehands where the ATP players have some time to set up on they do come off the ground a high % of the time. You have to watch it in slo motion to see it, seems like most forehands I have watched in slo motion they do come off the ground at least slightly.

I agree that many times it helps keep the ball below shoulder level like JY said, but it looks like because of the upward lift they use on their shots that the force makes them come off the ground even if the ball they are striking is not that high.

 

[kiteboard]

The body fly forehand is stock now in the game. Top players, plant either sideways, or backwards, and off that more solid plant footing, launch themselves into the shot off the better coil that sideways/backwards planting provides. NOt enough is thought nor said, of the more solid base and more powerful launch that 90 degree planting provides. No coincidence that the player who most often plants backwards on his one handed back hand, is Wawrinka. The best one hander in the game, is so, due to his coiling and solid planting, first and foremost. The future of the game resides in body fly ground stroking and net play. Way larger coils backwards off sideways and backwards plants, and way faster body fly forwards off those plants coming right down the pike.

Just look at your own feet. Do a standard plant forwards, towards the net at a 45 degree angle, and twist your upper body into a coil.. Now, do a sideways plant at a 90 degree angle away from the net towards the side fence, and twist your upper body into a coil and feel/see the difference. That's a lot to throw away! Even more on backwards plants, and tango stepping into transition shots, will become common place, enabling backwards plants even on shots when there is less time.

The uni grip swinging volley with same western ground stroke grip, using same side of the string bed, is also coming down the pike.

 

[pushing_wins]

Good thread. The main difference between ATP and WTA players vs average players starts before the stroke even takes place.....they get into much better position, much more frequently, than average players do. So they can execute more strokes with better balance and contact zone than average players.

nah i can hand feed a ball to a rec player they still have rec strokes

 

[SpinToWin]

ATP (in no particular order):
1) Pros are much more adept at getting the torso rotation into their shot. You will see them warming up slowly in order to get the timing for this motion right (at least that's how it seems to me).

2) Their footwork is considerably better, in the sense that they can get their body weight behind/into the shot on a more regular basis (standing leg is behind the point of contact).

3) Leg action plays a significantly more important role on the serve than for rec players. All pros could remain standing on their front leg (left leg for righties) immediately after executing the serve (of course with a full kickback motion).

 

[TCF]

content not found

 

[Chas Tennis]

I briefly looked at the forehand feet-off-the-ground issue for Shanghai. Saw a lot of feet off the ground on shorter balls impacted in the court.

For estimating stats for stronger forehands, where the player is not pressured, in addition to ball height, it should be noted whether impact is inside the court or behind the baseline. Recovery is a factor also.....

 

[sureshs]

I briefly looked at the forehand feet-off-the-ground issue for Shanghai. Saw a lot of feet off the ground on shorter balls impacted in the court.

For estimating stats for stronger forehands where the players is not pressured, in addition to ball height, whether impact is inside the court or behind the baseline should be noted.

How common is it to have only one foot in the air.

Note to everybody: please don't derail thread with funny analogies with dog activities please.

 

[JohnYandell]

tlm,
good point--the massive shoulder rotation causes this sometimes even on lower balls.
suresh,
good question on percentages but it's more common to have one foot in the air than both feet on the ground. and good news on the dog front--I am getting one...I will start posting videos of him asap

 

[sureshs]

I was talking about The Dog (Dolgopolov) of course.

I assume for forehand, if only one foot is the air, it is the right foot for a rightie? Hmmm or maybe it is the left foot as that is the one not being planted? I find it quite inconceivable to be off the ground, so I don't have the intuition.

 

[JohnYandell]

Can be either.

 

[tlm]

tlm,
good point--the massive shoulder rotation causes this sometimes even on lower balls.
suresh,
good question on percentages but it's more common to have one foot in the air than both feet on the ground. and good news on the dog front--I am getting one...I will start posting videos of him asap

Yes in slow motion it looks like because of the big shoulder rotation and the combined lifting action contributes to them coming off the ground.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Regarding one foot on the ground - running may have no feet or one foot on the ground. You have to distinguish between running and the stroke.

One of the earliest motion studies of running, 1887, by Eadweard Muybridge.
https://thebioscope.net/2010/09/22/the-running-man/

Running Man, 1887

https://www.google.com/search?q=eadweard+running+man&tbm=isch&imgil=_l0lsYvqBKJVpM:;lznSlM8RmcMSfM;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1000museums.com%2Fart_works%2Feadweard-muybridge-nude-man-running-at-full-speed-animal-locomotion-1887-plate-62&source=iu&pf=m&fir=_l0lsYvqBKJVpM:,lznSlM8RmcMSfM,_&usg=__5vxb6otOa_inGhz5JSp_QIMKBCY=&biw=882&bih=568&ved=0ahUKEwju6bHA0eLPAhVDHT4KHYpXCc8QyjcIJw&ei=-S4FWK6JNsO6-AGKr6X4DA#imgrc=_zgJjAFXs5lFeM:

 

[sureshs]

I mean during hitting.

Why is the guy nude?

 

[pushing_wins]

I said top players get into much better position than rec players. Plenty of rec players have decent strokes, but if they are out of position it is worthless.

Of course many rec players have poor strokes. Thats irrelevant to the conversation. The biggest problem with rec players is they get the basics down, many have dang nice strokes, yet they don't get in position so end up hitting off balance.

I know loads of rec players with great strokes, great racquet head speed...when you hand feed them. They look great. But in real action its all for naught as they can not get in position to execute the strokes properly.

rec players rarely have good strokes


i think we all see strokes differently ... and somehow it affects how we hit....for instance, it took me years to understand how nadal hits the ball, i couldnt even visualize it

 

[ByeByePoly]

For ATP pros vs average men & WTA pros vs average women, specify ATP or WTA -

What are the most significant stroke technique characteristics that the ATP and WTA players are using well but that most average players aren't using or using well enough? List up to 3 in order of importance.

Any supporting characteristics for the stroke are interesting as well, conditioning or positioning, etc.

Examples,

ATP players
#1 - most ATP pros have higher respiratory capacity so that they are rarely short of breath during their strokes. (supporting characteristic at the time of the stroke).
#2 - most players always keep two feet on the ground throughout their ground strokes.
#3 - most players condition their muscles for speed using plyometrics.

WTA players
#1 - most take their rackets farther back for a longer acceleration to impact.
#2 - most use the muscle 'reflex response' for greater racket head speed.
#3 - most train muscles for endurance to perform well for a 3 hour match.

ATP Players
#1 - most keep a relaxed arm during the X & Y parts of the strokes.
#2 - most use fast twitch muscles throughout their stroke acceleration.
#3 - most use power from their legs for racket head speed by increasing the body turn speed.

WTA Players
#1 - most impact the ball with a relaxed wrist/wrists.
#2 - most have a large upper body turn angle.
#3 - most look at the racket as it approaches the ball.

Examples could be too specific......what do you think?

"#1 - most ATP pros have higher respiratory capacity so that they are rarely short of breath during their strokes. (supporting characteristic at the time of the stroke)."

Vision. I would have said that was OT given your title, but it certainly is a "supporting characteristic at time of the stroke".

How cool would it be to step on the court for one match with Agassi's or Connor's eyes ... and find out how much that mattered. My guess it's more a matter of depth perception processing than simply how well you read a eye chart. Anecdotally, I wore hard contacts for years, and pretty much had corrected 20/20 vision. Always struggled at night driving, and with indoor tennis ... particularly return of serve. Then at 34, got Lasik and night vision was good, a new world with indoor tennis.

Now the downside to playing with Agassi's eyes and finding out that wasn't your problem ... there goes a lifetime of excuses.