3 parts of learning/teaching tennis

[jakeytennis]

1. the natural way (basically the wegner method)
easiest and most efficient way to learn tennis

2. the traditional way (i dont know what else to call it. probly a bad name)
learning all the details of stroke techniques.
this allows for your skills to ADVANCE and get better

3. the mental game
most of my mental game info come from "inner game of tennis" and his "relaxed concentration"
this allows you to play up to your best abilities.

all three are equally important in my opinion

 

[sureshs]

There is no "natural" way of learning. Can you name one pro playing today who followed the natural way of learning?

Right from holding the racket (the correct grip for different strokes), tennis needs to be learnt through its details. Ask someone who doesn't play tennis to show you how the pros serve. They will never use the continental grip and bring the racket edgeways.

Putting the outside foot first, being sideways on the serve, leading with the edge, using the correct grip, using topspin rather than hitting up with open face, split-stepping - everything is taught to most people or they learn on their own indirectly, but using the material other people have learnt from. Seldom does anyone come up with any of this on his/her own "naturally."

The correct way of learning tennis which is followed by all proven pros and juniors and college players is to learn the technical fundamentals correctly. Then they can improvise and innovate on their own, and sometimes those become the material of the next "textbooks."

High-speed video helps to observe the strokes in slow motion and facilitates learning, removing myths which may have been floating around. Even plain old Tennis Channel is good.

 

[CoachingMastery]

There is no "natural" way of learning. Can you name one pro playing today who followed the natural way of learning?

Right from holding the racket (the correct grip for different strokes), tennis needs to be learnt through its details. Ask someone who doesn't play tennis to show you how the pros serve. They will never use the continental grip and bring the racket edgeways.

Putting the outside foot first, being sideways on the serve, leading with the edge, using the correct grip, using topspin rather than hitting up with open face, split-stepping - everything is taught to most people or they learn on their own indirectly, but using the material other people have learnt from. Seldom does anyone come up with any of this on his/her own "naturally."

The correct way of learning tennis which is followed by all proven pros and juniors and college players is to learn the technical fundamentals correctly. Then they can improvise and innovate on their own, and sometimes those become the material of the next "textbooks."

High-speed video helps to observe the strokes in slow motion and facilitates learning, removing myths which may have been floating around. Even plain old Tennis Channel is good.

Great post and I agree 100%. In my experience, great teaching pros make the un-natural become natural, the un-familiar become familiar, the difficult become easy.

There are some players who find elements of skilled tennis more natural than others. But for people to clump all students into this mold is ignorant and, if they are pros, irresponsible. To simply "let" students do what ever feels "natural" almost NEVER produces a student who reaches their potential...in ANYTHING!

Do we let piano players play with just their two index fingers because using all the fingers feels 'unnatural'? Do we let kids granny shoot basketballs because it is more 'natural' than learning to set-shoot with the right hand and arm positions? Do golf instructors let students swing anyway that feels "natural"?

NO...unless you want the student to stagnate at levels far below their potential.

Why people today believe that teaching any sport or activity, (but tennis is most guilty of this), by avoiding techniques that are difficult, unfamiliar, or initially frustrating, is totally beyond me. While there is a VERY SMALL segment of population that can somehow manipulate unconventional technique into becoming somewhat successful, (I didn't say 'skilled'), all you need to do is go to the public or club courts and look at the gazillion players who dink, push, hack, bunt, and basically flail at the ball with no idea of stroke patterns, repeatable or reliable swing paths, spin, (too much or none at all!), footwork calamities, etc., who have not improved in probably twenty years!

Of course, the mark of a great instructor is one who can implement the drills, exercises, analogies, personality, and creativity, to make those difficult, frustrating, and unfamiliar patterns become mastered strokes, (thus becoming easy, familiar and confident), in as short of time with the least amount of uneasiness, and within an environment that is rewarding.

Notice I didn't say "FUN"...fun is a perception. You can have fun while working very hard. Fun for my students was when they smiled broadly when they executed a shot the way they knew was skilled. The joy of reaching goals, becoming skilled at something, and reaching ones potential is not only a higher degree of "fun" but the kind of fun that will last a lifetime...not just a moment of 'hit and giggle' that is fun for a few seconds.

Looking back at my coaching career, I remember other teams who were not anywhere near as good as my kids, at the beginning of the match were laughing and giggling, until they got killed and recognized they had not been taught tennis well at all. I have heard more than once, opponents going up to their coach and asking, "How come we can't be that good, coach?" And, within playing skilled tennis, my kids not only came away knowing they played very well, they ENJOYED the game because they were CAPABLE of executing shots that made the game more fun for themselves. Big kick serves, angle volleys, big topsping passing shots, overheads that ended points with an exclamation point, etc. These are skills that I feel I gave them to enjoy the sport for a LIFETIME...not just a mediocre lucky shot giggle and then run the ball down off the court next to them.

But, don't get me wrong; even within the idea of skilled instruction, we also had a ton of fun based on each team's personality, spirit, and individual leaders. To say you can't teach highly skilled tennis and have fun at the same time is basically saying you don't know how to teach tennis well.

Unfortunately, we still have hundreds of teaching pros and coaches who don't believe you can have both. And, unfortunately, we have instructors who believe that teaching inferior methods for the sake of "fun" is a good way to teach.

 

[arche3]

High-speed video helps to observe the strokes in slow motion and facilitates learning, removing myths which may have been floating around. Even plain old Tennis Channel is good.

most players learn from a coach. not video.

 

[skiracer55]

It's simple....

Great post and I agree 100%. In my experience, great teaching pros make the un-natural become natural, the un-familiar become familiar, the difficult become easy.

There are some players who find elements of skilled tennis more natural than others. But for people to clump all students into this mold is ignorant and, if they are pros, irresponsible. To simply "let" students do what ever feels "natural" almost NEVER produces a student who reaches their potential...in ANYTHING!

Do we let piano players play with just their two index fingers because using all the fingers feels 'unnatural'? Do we let kids granny shoot basketballs because it is more 'natural' than learning to set-shoot with the right hand and arm positions? Do golf instructors let students swing anyway that feels "natural"?

NO...unless you want the student to stagnate at levels far below their potential.

Why people today believe that teaching any sport or activity, (but tennis is most guilty of this), by avoiding techniques that are difficult, unfamiliar, or initially frustrating, is totally beyond me. While there is a VERY SMALL segment of population that can somehow manipulate unconventional technique into becoming somewhat successful, (I didn't say 'skilled'), all you need to do is go to the public or club courts and look at the gazillion players who dink, push, hack, bunt, and basically flail at the ball with no idea of stroke patterns, repeatable or reliable swing paths, spin, (too much or none at all!), footwork calamities, etc., who have not improved in probably twenty years!

Of course, the mark of a great instructor is one who can implement the drills, exercises, analogies, personality, and creativity, to make those difficult, frustrating, and unfamiliar patterns become mastered strokes, (thus becoming easy, familiar and confident), in as short of time with the least amount of uneasiness, and within an environment that is rewarding.

Notice I didn't say "FUN"...fun is a perception. You can have fun while working very hard. Fun for my students was when they smiled broadly when they executed a shot the way they knew was skilled. The joy of reaching goals, becoming skilled at something, and reaching ones potential is not only a higher degree of "fun" but the kind of fun that will last a lifetime...not just a moment of 'hit and giggle' that is fun for a few seconds.

Looking back at my coaching career, I remember other teams who were not anywhere near as good as my kids, at the beginning of the match were laughing and giggling, until they got killed and recognized they had not been taught tennis well at all. I have heard more than once, opponents going up to their coach and asking, "How come we can't be that good, coach?" And, within playing skilled tennis, my kids not only came away knowing they played very well, they ENJOYED the game because they were CAPABLE of executing shots that made the game more fun for themselves. Big kick serves, angle volleys, big topsping passing shots, overheads that ended points with an exclamation point, etc. These are skills that I feel I gave them to enjoy the sport for a LIFETIME...not just a mediocre lucky shot giggle and then run the ball down off the court next to them.

But, don't get me wrong; even within the idea of skilled instruction, we also had a ton of fun based on each team's personality, spirit, and individual leaders. To say you can't teach highly skilled tennis and have fun at the same time is basically saying you don't know how to teach tennis well.

Unfortunately, we still have hundreds of teaching pros and coaches who don't believe you can have both. And, unfortunately, we have instructors who believe that teaching inferior methods for the sake of "fun" is a good way to teach.

...why people avoid doing The Right Stuff, which is that everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. Or, to put it another way, we're currently in the middle of the Instant America period, where you can get anything you want via an infomercial, including a 5.0 tennis game.

Re "difficult, frustrating, and unfamiliar patterns become mastered strokes", they're only frustrating or difficult if you don't understand the tool (the racket) and the biomechanics behind it. I coach both tennis and alpine ski racing, and I always make it a point if I want an athlete to do something different to explain why it's going to do one of two things, or better yet, both. The two things being use the tool to its optimum purpose and/or do so in a more biomechanically efficient way. An example is Conti grip on the serve. Have the athlete go through a serve motion (no ball) and stop at the contact point. Take the off racket hand and rotate the grip around to different grips...Eastern FH, Conti...what the hell, go for a SW forehand grip, which is what most players I've seen actually use. It will quickly become apparent that with anything but a Conti, there's no way you can ever get any consistency, pace, spin, or placement on the serve. In fact, you'll have to commit an unnatural act just to get the ball in the service box.

Yep, unlearning the Wrong Stuff is hard...but if you understand why it's the Wrong Stuff, and what the Right Stuff will buy you, the process is a whole lot easier and more straightforward...

 

[Ash_Smith]

Not that I am speaking for Jakey, but I assume by "the natural way" he is meaning teaching by process of "guided discovery" rather than simply " "let" students do what ever feels "natural" "

Guided discovery is a much less dictatorial way of the student arriving in the same place, but it could be described as a more natural process for the student (obviously you know all this Dave!)

Is that what you're meaning Jakey?

 

[sureshs]

The easiest way to study this would be find out how many pros today came through system (1) and how many through system (2). Families are literally selling their homes to get their kid a 1% advantage. A system which works would immediately be adopted by thousands of players, if it works.

 

[5263]

Not that I am speaking for Jakey, but I assume by "the natural way" he is meaning teaching by process of "guided discovery" rather than simply " "let" students do what ever feels "natural" "

Guided discovery is a much less dictatorial way of the student arriving in the same place, but it could be described as a more natural process for the student (obviously you know all this Dave!)

Is that what you're meaning Jakey?

Well, of course that is what is meant here Ash, as he references Oscar's style
of learning it.

The problem is that you have the reg. posters commenting on it above that either, do
not understand how the term is used, or choose to ignore the consistent explanations
for it. Of course there is a natural path to learning and discovery,
which is evident everyday in our lives, along with advanced classroom/programs.
There are also natural ways our body can and does move more efficiently.

 

[sureshs]

I am into alternative and holistic medicine, and have seen both the good and bad sides. In many cases, the alternative "natural" treatment has no scientific basis. It just promises a lower cost "easy" alternative to the conventional medicine, delivered together with a rant against big pharmas and their world domination. And sometimes it works. Maybe it acted like a placebo, maybe the conventional medicine which was stopped was still in the blood stream, maybe it just went away by chance. There have been many cases in which people have been fooled for years by natural medicine before rushing to a doctor in an emergency situation. People always want an alternative to learning the details - the just want to be told to get in touch with their inner energy and everything will be good. They are told that good health and "balance" is the "natural" state of all living bodies (while ignoring the fact that animals in the wild suffer from all the diseases we do).

(But many natural medicines work very well too.)

 

[Avles]

Maybe this Tomaz Mencinger article is relevant to the discussion?

http://www.feeltennis.net/learning-technique-adults-kids/.

I thought this part was particularly interesting:

Adults are often impatient, especially if they haven’t trained in any sport previously in their life. They have no idea whatsoever how long it takes to develop correct foundations of a stroke and therefore want to have good technique very soon.
They see themselves as smart and competent and believe that moving the racquet in a certain way shouldn’t be such a problem. Therefore, they are not patient and then want to take shortcuts in the process.
In most cases, adults simply follow the instruction of tennis techniques to the T and do not allow the subconscious to take over. In the process, they destroy the body’s ability to naturally generate effortless force through optimal speed of movement of certain levers and using certain swings and momentums.
I have personally been teaching tennis to kids and adults for over 20 years, and the difference in the learning process when ONLY the analytical approach is taught is enormous.
Simply put, kids combine the technical analytical instruction with their desire to be comfortable (which is nothing else than the body’s signal of telling you what is a natural way of generating force), while adults do everything in their power to perform the movement “correctly,” even when it doesn’t feel comfortable and it doesn’t produce any natural force.

 

[5263]

I am into alternative and holistic medicine, and have seen both the good and bad sides. In many cases, the alternative "natural" treatment has no scientific basis. It just promises a lower cost "easy" alternative to the conventional medicine, delivered together with a rant against big pharmas and their world domination. And sometimes it works. Maybe it acted like a placebo, maybe the conventional medicine which was stopped was still in the blood stream, maybe it just went away by chance. There have been many cases in which people have been fooled for years by natural medicine before rushing to a doctor in an emergency situation. People always want an alternative to learning the details - the just want to be told to get in touch with their inner energy and everything will be good. They are told that good health and "balance" is the "natural" state of all living bodies (while ignoring the fact that animals in the wild suffer from all the diseases we do).
(But many natural medicines work very well too.)

and to go with what imo is a very poor analogy, big pharmas often end with
a plethora of nasty side effects that end a patient's life before the disease, and
even end up with things like Newtown and Columbine .
I don't buy into this analogy and it shows how poorly understood the term
natural is expressed or used in this context by the poster.

 

[arche3]

Maybe this Tomaz Mencinger article is relevant to the discussion?

http://www.feeltennis.net/learning-technique-adults-kids/.

I thought this part was particularly interesting:

suresh please read this. maybe email your boy jy and tell him to read it.

 

[5263]

"Simply put, kids combine the technical analytical instruction with their desire to be comfortable (which is nothing else than the body’s signal of telling you what is a natural way of generating force), while adults do everything in their power to perform the movement “correctly,” even when it doesn’t feel comfortable and it doesn’t produce any natural force."

Nice point here and much more inline with how natural is used in a tennis context.

 

[Zolar]

Natural Limitations

I'm a very stiff individual, never been able to touch my toes despite years of trying to stretch. As a consequence, my strokes in tennis are affected and I can't look like pros or copy their technique - my body just doesn't do certain thinga! To me, part of the "natural" way of learning tennis is knowing what your particular body can and can't do. Andy Roddick's serve is aided by his body type - he has an ability to bend like others can't. Trying to copy Roddick would be futile and frustrating, to say the least.
Are there other people with similar limitations? Is trying to teach them cookie-cutter technique a mistake? I don't know the answer, but it's worth considering, imo.

 

[5263]

I'm a very stiff individual, never been able to touch my toes despite years of trying to stretch. As a consequence, my strokes in tennis are affected and I can't look like pros or copy their technique - my body just doesn't do certain thinga! To me, part of the "natural" way of learning tennis is knowing what your particular body can and can't do.

this shows a much better understanding of natural in the tennis learning context.

 

[5263]

2. the traditional way (i dont know what else to call it. probly a bad name)
learning all the details of stroke techniques.
this allows for your skills to ADVANCE and get better

Now this part is really only important for an instructor to know the hows and
whys behind the actual instruction or someone who intends to self instruct.
Also really important to have quality fundamentals vs the outdated classic basics.

 

[Ash_Smith]

^^^ yep, tennis coaching is equal parts Science and Art. The Science off-court informs the Art on-court.

Cheers

 

[tennisfan69]

First Letting the body dictate what flows/comes natural : this is very true. once that is in place then you can fine tune the technique a little bit. but forcing to adapt a new technique against the natural flow of body forces is very counter productive. also agree with the Tomaz Mencinger article. true true true. my little son is a natural athlete. but becasue of my impatience on certain techniques he uses and the urgency to correct them have drastically cut down the fire in him. the good thing is i realized this and have taken a back seat and now he is slowly coming back on track. but boy-o-boy i definetly lost some time there. once all said and done i can really write an article about WHAT PARENTS SHOULD NOT DO in bringing up a natural born athlete....

 

[sureshs]

The feel article is very good. What it says is get the feel by gently letting a ball hit the passive racket. That is great. His forehand analysis is great too.

Ultimately, look for concrete achievements, like which pro he has coached to success. Also, find out if a pro in the Australian Open now is thinking about feel on every shot.

It is easy to lecture to beginners about feel, but every one eventually develops it. It comes by hitting many balls. If someone is selling you a shortcut to it, don't buy it. There are many things which put together give the sensation of feel.

 

[TCF]

==============================================

 

[tennisfan69]

Wow, I could have wrote this post. My daughter is the same way. Been a natural athlete even as a toddler. Took me a while to figure out my technically obsessed focus was just getting in her way.

the tendency to see the fully developed pro( but pros are developing untill they retire.. that is why they are there ), in the very young physically underdeveloped body of a 6,7,8,9,10 year old is the biggest mistake one can make. kids tend to do certain things because physically they cannot do otherwise for lack of strength, height, perception etc. forcing them to do those techniques is detrimental to long term progress and also kills their inner fire to experiment their own way of improving things. tell you they figure out a lot of stuff themselves if you only let them figure out. Also certain techniques are to be taught only after their body parts have grown/matured.. like kick serve you need a strong back..

OP parts 1 and 3 goes hand in hand i guess. but 2 should be gradually introduced as age progresses.

 

[5263]

--a pro in the Australian Open now is thinking about feel on every shot--

Sampras and Agassi, among others talked a lot about how feel was their big
objective.

 

[sureshs]

Yeah, but you cannot teach that. It comes indirectly through hitting a lot of balls with proper technique. Mike Agassi made him hit millions of balls till Andre was sick of it.

 

[5263]

Yeah, but you cannot teach that.

I don't think you know that, and can only say what your experience has been.
Maybe that is because of your choices of learning approaches?

My experience is you can facilitate the learning feel process.

 

[LuckyR]

Coaching Mastery is absolutely correct of course, that there is a set of physical fundamentals of optimal tennis stroke mechanics. No serious person will argue this. But I don't think that the OP necessarily disputes this fact.

The OP seems to be saying that different players will arrive at these fundamentals through different paths. The two most obvious would be to systematically deal with each detail and build them up to the final package and the other is to look at the final package and "figure out" the details after the fact.

Either can work, given the right pupil. I (and I believe Coaching Mastery has admitted in previous threads, that he too is an example) learned tennis by close observation of optimal play and mimicking it, without the input of instruction on every detail of what I was observing.

 

[sureshs]

^^^ Agree with that.

PS: that = 5263 post above

 

[sureshs]

Coaching Mastery is absolutely correct of course, that there is a set of physical fundamentals of optimal tennis stroke mechanics. No serious person will argue this. But I don't think that the OP necessarily disputes this fact.

The OP seems to be saying that different players will arrive at these fundamentals through different paths. The two most obvious would be to systematically deal with each detail and build them up to the final package and the other is to look at the final package and "figure out" the details after the fact.

Either can work, given the right pupil. I (and I believe Coaching Mastery has admitted in previous threads, that he too is an example) learned tennis by close observation of optimal play and mimicking it, without the input of instruction on every detail of what I was observing.

OP's claim is that "natural" method is basically the same as "Wegner" method.

Every coach teaches feel and intuition, along with the bread and butter of fundamentals. I have heard coaches cry: can you feel the grazing on the second serve? Do you hear a swish?

Incorporating feel and natural movement is done by everyone. To say that is basically attributable to one person is completely wrong. That is why I said before that OP should find out which pros actually came out coached by method 1.

 

[5263]

OP's claim is that "natural" method is basically the same as "Wegner" method.

I took it more as he was using the Wegner method as an example, but not
exclusive. He could have just as easily pointed to your feeltennis site or others. Not
saying they are the same, but each go after a natural feel approach.
Players have to figure out what they want.

 

[ClairHarmony]

There is no "natural" way of learning. Can you name one pro playing today who followed the natural way of learning?

Right from holding the racket (the correct grip for different strokes), tennis needs to be learnt through its details. Ask someone who doesn't play tennis to show you how the pros serve. They will never use the continental grip and bring the racket edgeways.

Putting the outside foot first, being sideways on the serve, leading with the edge, using the correct grip, using topspin rather than hitting up with open face, split-stepping - everything is taught to most people or they learn on their own indirectly, but using the material other people have learnt from. Seldom does anyone come up with any of this on his/her own "naturally."

The correct way of learning tennis which is followed by all proven pros and juniors and college players is to learn the technical fundamentals correctly. Then they can improvise and innovate on their own, and sometimes those become the material of the next "textbooks."

High-speed video helps to observe the strokes in slow motion and facilitates learning, removing myths which may have been floating around. Even plain old Tennis Channel is good.

For you.... No one taught me to hit a one-handed backhand, then poof...shocked everyone out of nowhere...one day just feeling it...iz like that for some. Never read a book in my life, practically...yet no need to invent "tricks...," purely guided by whatever "feel." One million times, like LIGHT and GUTTER, know your type. Just like the way you go, if it works for you. Fine, logical, cioncrete, working your way up to the mountain top. If it works for you, that's great!. Analytical types, see it as this way, but there are those for whom too much this and that, this and that, this and that, just *destroys* you, can literally. You'll always be kickin' and screamin' inside if someon makes you think/ feel, whatever say different from how you really wanna process.... Worse advice I ever received? Act, be more normal, act, be more normal, just to get in. DON'T maximize MY potential, conform to the "eastablished," "right" way...when every leap in me, is from/through resist. It's like thos who tell Dwight Howard to knock off his smile, can't stand people like that, something is wrong with people like that...oh, yeah, sure and watch Ben Henderson whoop that tail, bcs. he LOVES himself.

Be people want to hear it different, Venus delightfully squals..."Ice-crreamm!" cone on how she remebers, that foregone cue, on how to tip that ball up to surf on serve immaculate. Just is what it is. Give it to, how *satisfies.* If you're not satisifed, you won't even bother unless shotgun taped to forehead. High-speed analysis into oblivion...fine. But that's because it's within your OWN natural impulse to do so. Maximize what makes YOU tick, and wala...endless video analysis might be well-serve, then go hit, and "work" it out. Or opposite, for me, it's in my emotions, more so. If my emotions in check, the rest will move from dangle to in-tow. We all access, evidents of shared humanity in us all, but what you prioritize, what you want to? What you give favor to? Dan just find your right way, it's not all or why way. You may think high-slow analysis is very natural progression, think many adults is unnatural, stupiz to think that way natural...but what point. I trust that if u was on life's death kneel, u'd want to go out thinking your way was everyone's best...and that's only natural. Hey, how 'bout that yummy chicken salad? Only one way to try and make it sound, feel more yummy, appealing, appetizing...or, get more buff over time? Which is it? It don't matter. But more important to some, if you can't keep that impulse-instinct alive...the deligh in the real Hawaain Irish Korean American Ken is out...kinda feeling. U know? What'z the point, if the debate keeps your motor likc ticking, how much u learn? MUCH. Why? Bcs. you naturally seek more knowledge, you still around for more, improving...the wheel is still moving, whether by feel, rewind, or whatever...'cause I don't care nothin' bout tennis lately that I give a care...then, what's the point? Oink-oink...but maybe I should. When it was fun, if it's not fun to derive to arrive, or arrive to derive for others. Don't matter, we're just occupying time. Whatever engages, and keeps you along for the ride. Best chance, or perish in smoke of naivette'. And yet, still I can sense there has been a remarkable progression in you, for you have grown. Where others don't see it, I see it in droves. Usually our points and directives and personalities remain the same, the boundaries in our reframe merely grows slightly more tolerant, appreciative. Whatever works for you, is good, continue, disseminate, not exterminate. Everything is of potential use. it only takes a needle in a hy stack, Too much anlaysis, and you can miss the moment. Too little, and not see. It's not a matter of betterer, but how you want to hear it. Anaylsis is in the soul of some, fleeting flirt temptations in the eyes of another, whatever, ghetto, it iz, what is, make your fish mignon tonight. Havn't life or death time for, time to calamitiously get back on track, peace out preserve soul's welfare....oh, look, nothing, love thy OscarYandellyam...and in other knews, if Zelena didn't have a zit, she'd be pretty, whatever works for you on a steady diet of iced tea. If your hear'ts no in the game to analyze, it's just not. Motivation. Humans are smarter than you might think. Give them enough credit for, and they begin to seek, in a way that feels "natural" to. Before Agassi learned to think too much, he learned to kill...but then, he had to learn how to stop and held breathless for awhile. Without calamity, no sense of broken worthiness... Improve, without declare? But why? Tha'ts crazzy, fiendish, and stupiz, sayz Austin Powers. I used to think Elizabeth Hurley was most beuatiful eva, for a spell, but *clearly* I was wrong. She's still a salt lamp though, dan cutey! And, Leah Remini too! Only slightly less so. The really important things in life. Whatever makes you want to play tennis more. Just remember, how lucky you iz to still be able to *play.* Without that zest, it'd merely be obligation, a gremlin kicking and screaming inside ton o' dynohhhhmite. It only takes one to turn a tired new leaf, in here. If u didn't know studs w. guns (Jan Michael Gambill) could play two-handed, bubblegum savanta,s would probalby lthink , no way izx not possizble, I'll kick him in da rear, for riding htat wave almost to the top, iszn't ther a group called the Zitfree boys with your name on it? Dud, can't do that, don't do that, I thought you had to have the soul of Monica Seles to get away with like that. And, in other news, saw the ticky competitiveness mannerisms of John Mac vs. Chang theo other day, but they looked the same, even if chang, being Asian and all, be the better dancer. All those years of training ballet on the great ball, only in his imagination, have really paid off...phsyio people have a name for training that blaance thingermuachig of brain for balance with eyes closed, but no so what iz, 'm not a sloppy-then-razor refermagnum,idon't knowhow tohink anymore,izincredbile how tireing iz totink, lik that. U lucky, go incredo just hit yeay!.

 

[President]

^the dangers of big pharma

 

[sureshs]

For you.... No one taught me to hit a one-handed backhand, then poof...shocked everyone out of nowhere...one day just feeling it...iz like that for some. Never read a book in my life, practically...yet no need to invent "tricks...," purely guided by whatever "feel."

I am sure you had never seen a 1 handed BH being hit before, and never watch a 1 hander pro on TV, and never even practiced it before. You were not using an Eastern or an extreme Eastern before.

And all of a sudden you were hitting it. Right.

I too learnt it on my own. It came through a series of "Ah ah"s as thinks clicked. That is my feel, and only I can feel it. I don't need any philosophical approach to that. And yes, I started by observation and reading books and watching and asking questions.

 

[jakeytennis]

There is no "natural" way of learning. Can you name one pro playing today who followed the natural way of learning?

Right from holding the racket (the correct grip for different strokes), tennis needs to be learnt through its details. Ask someone who doesn't play tennis to show you how the pros serve. They will never use the continental grip and bring the racket edgeways.

Putting the outside foot first, being sideways on the serve, leading with the edge, using the correct grip, using topspin rather than hitting up with open face, split-stepping - everything is taught to most people or they learn on their own indirectly, but using the material other people have learnt from. Seldom does anyone come up with any of this on his/her own "naturally."

The correct way of learning tennis which is followed by all proven pros and juniors and college players is to learn the technical fundamentals correctly. Then they can improvise and innovate on their own, and sometimes those become the material of the next "textbooks."

High-speed video helps to observe the strokes in slow motion and facilitates learning, removing myths which may have been floating around. Even plain old Tennis Channel is good.

you really think telling a beginner 100 different instructions is a good teaching method. that is way to complicated to learn quickly

by natural way, i mean teaching the most basic fundamentals of tennis, which is watching the ball, tracking the ball, and running to the ball naturally.


if you want to see how simple tennis can be taught, watch these videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMTf2zDNkw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzR8x5MgvDw

i've seen so many players with good mechanics/technique that look like fools on a tennis court because they dont watch the ball well or track the ball well

 

[arche3]

I am sure you had never seen a 1 handed BH being hit before, and never watch a 1 hander pro on TV, and never even practiced it before. You were not using an Eastern or an extreme Eastern before.

And all of a sudden you were hitting it. Right.

I too learnt it on my own. It came through a series of "Ah ah"s as thinks clicked. That is my feel, and only I can feel it. I don't need any philosophical approach to that. And yes, I started by observation and reading books and watching and asking questions.

If you had a coach on court with you the technique comes much faster.

 

[Ash_Smith]

you really think telling a beginner 100 different instructions is a good teaching method. that is way to complicated to learn quickly

umm, I don't think anybody ever suggested that this is a good idea!

 

[5263]

by natural way, i mean teaching the most basic fundamentals of tennis, which is watching the ball, tracking the ball, and running to the ball naturally.

Seems some posters think natural means inborn like a bird knowing how to
build a nest or something?

 

[jakeytennis]

im not saying the traditional "100 different instructions" teaching method is bad. it's good for making developed players better.
im just saying it shouldnt be taught before "the natural way"


people dont realize hitting a ball successfully REQUIRES the ball to hit the strings.

and players that are taught to watch the ball, track the ball, and run to the ball well are so consistent because they almost always make good contact with the ball

 

[arche3]

Seems some posters think natural means inborn like a bird knowing how to
build a nest or something?

I'm against using high speed video for players to learn when they are beginners. I think beginners need a good real live coach and after they can hit a decent fh bh serve etc. Then start breaking down the small details of pro strokes analysing video. A beginner needs less stuff in their head. But you need a good coach that shows the player the proper feel of the strokes. The body needs muscle memory and the brain just gets in the way when you have no idea what its supposed to feel like.

 

[sureshs]

you really think telling a beginner 100 different instructions is a good teaching method. that is way to complicated to learn quickly

by natural way, i mean teaching the most basic fundamentals of tennis, which is watching the ball, tracking the ball, and running to the ball naturally.


if you want to see how simple tennis can be taught, watch these videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMTf2zDNkw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzR8x5MgvDw

i've seen so many players with good mechanics/technique that look like fools on a tennis court because they dont watch the ball well or track the ball well

No one does the things you suggest. Have you ever watched a coach teach a beginner? He doesn't give 100 instructions, nor does he say run to the ball naturally. He gives a couple of guided instructions and make them hit the ball.

And you have seen many players with good technique and mechanics who don't watch the ball? Then how do you know they have good mechanics? And more fundamentally, how did they acquire the good mechanics without watching and tracking the ball? By just hitting into empty space?

 

[5263]

I'm against using high speed video for players to learn when they are beginners. I think beginners need a good real live coach and after they can hit a decent fh bh serve etc. Then start breaking down the small details of pro strokes analysing video. A beginner needs less stuff in their head. But you need a good coach that shows the player the proper feel of the strokes. The body needs muscle memory and the brain just gets in the way when you have no idea what its supposed to feel like.

Some good pts.
You know I'm referring to those who seem to thing learning a "natural way"
means some kind of inborn knowledge or something.

 

[arche3]

Some good pts.
You know I'm referring to those who seem to thing learning a "natural way"
means some kind of inborn knowledge or something.

Yeah. Tennis is freakin hard. You cant just go on court and get good. Examples at every tennis club in the country. Adults played 40 years and still do not know how to serve.

 

[sureshs]

I'm against using high speed video for players to learn when they are beginners. I think beginners need a good real live coach and after they can hit a decent fh bh serve etc. Then start breaking down the small details of pro strokes analysing video. A beginner needs less stuff in their head. But you need a good coach that shows the player the proper feel of the strokes. The body needs muscle memory and the brain just gets in the way when you have no idea what its supposed to feel like.

Or they can hit on their own and use their intelligence. Seen many juniors by now who never took a lesson from a coach but were only coached by their 3.5 fathers, who are now in college with a tennis scholarship.

 

[5263]

Yeah. Tennis is freakin hard.

Well, I don't agree playing is hard if taught right.
I do agree being good can be hard at anything, as being good usually means
being better than others.

I think racketball is soooo easy to play, but extremely challenging to be very
good; partly because the game is so easy to get started playing.

 

[5263]

Or they can hit on their own and use their intelligence. Seen many juniors by now who never took a lesson from a coach but were only coached by their 3.5 fathers, who are now in college with a tennis scholarship.

Bit of a stretch here I think. I can't think of one example like that in over 15 yrs
of jr tournaments.
I'm not saying didn't or can't happen, but would be quite rare imo.
4.0 parent,.... now maybe a few.

 

[5263]

how about this example,

Quote:
Originally Posted by toly
Let’s assume that ball travels from opponent’s racquet to your point of contact Ttr seconds and your back and forward swing takes Tsw (can be about 0.5sec). Thus you should start backward swing after Ttr-Tsw when the ball lives the opponent racket. That’s why there is practically no correlation between timing of your swing and ball’s bounce.

To illustrate this idea there is Safin difficult FH from baseline http://youtu.be/PvkLy7vZyy4. He almost finishes his forward swing before ball’s bounce.
quote end

answer-
Somewhat confusing ...

 

[arche3]

Or they can hit on their own and use their intelligence. Seen many juniors by now who never took a lesson from a coach but were only coached by their 3.5 fathers, who are now in college with a tennis scholarship.

Scholarship? Your making stuff up. Not likely by a hack parent. But 3.5 doesnt mean parent cant teach the right form if they have it as well.
Id rather an informed 3.5 parent than some kid learning by video.

 

[jakeytennis]

sureshs
you're right. too many coaches teach by giving out 100 instructions

that's why tennis isn't as popular or good in the US
because kids don't realize how simple and fun tennis is

and u never seen a player who's swings look correct, but they miss hit or frame every other shot?
this is because theyre tracking skills are bad or they dont watch the ball well enough

i've been around so many high school and middle school age tennis players. i see that kind of stuff all the time

 

[LuckyR]

Scholarship? Your making stuff up. Not likely by a hack parent. But 3.5 doesnt mean parent cant teach the right form if they have it as well.
Id rather an informed 3.5 parent than some kid learning by video.

It would not suprise me if Richard Williams is not a very good player...

 

[5263]

It would not suprise me if Richard Williams is not a very good player...

and they got lots of other coaching too.

 

[sureshs]

sureshs
you're right. too many coaches teach by giving out 100 instructions

that's why tennis isn't as popular or good in the US
because kids don't realize how simple and fun tennis is

and u never seen a player who's swings look correct, but they miss hit or frame every other shot?
this is because theyre tracking skills are bad or they dont watch the ball well enough

i've been around so many high school and middle school age tennis players. i see that kind of stuff all the time

You mean the impatient types? Yes seen a few of them. It is a mental issue, they just want to bash the ball. Never seen even a reasonable junior who is like that though (can't track a ball).

 

[sureshs]

Scholarship? Your making stuff up. Not likely by a hack parent. But 3.5 doesnt mean parent cant teach the right form if they have it as well.
Id rather an informed 3.5 parent than some kid learning by video.

No, I don't make this up. Just this fall, a girl got a full ride. Granted it was a small private religious school, but she does play well. Her father had made me hit many times with her before tourneys. And before that others. And more on the way. 3.5 fathers who are on the court every evening and weekend with their kids because they cannot afford private lessons.

But the one that stands out graduated several years ago. His father was a 3.5 player who actually used to sneer (loudly) at kids who his son beat, and go through the calculation of how much money they spent on lessons per month and how much his son spent (0). Of course, as you can guess, he wasn't exactly a nice guy, challenging coaches all the time about this, and one day he got into a fist fight in doubles and was kicked out of the club!