4.0 stuck on a team with mostly 3.5's

T

tom10s

New User
I joined a newly formed 4.0 adult league team as the deadline for team formation was rapidly approaching. Now that others have joined, the team is compromised MOSTLY of computer rated and self-rated 3.5's. WTF?! The thought of playing doubles with "reverse sandbaggers" has absolutely no appeal. I don't know any of the other players but i doubt that computer rated 3.5's(especially after 2009 yr end bump) and self-rated 3.5's on a newly formed captainless team are going to be solid 4.0 doubles players ....possible but highly doubtful. I can't play singles so i am stuck playing doubles.

has anyone here dealt with similar situation?
 
actually, from what i understand, the usta will let you play up one level in a league. is this strictly a dbls league? if so, don't most dbls leagues use a combine lvl (a 7.0 team could be two 3.5s or a 3 and a 4)?

i know this isn't what you asked, but man i gotta salute you because based on all the griping i heard from ppl getting bumped up, most ppl enjoy beating up on lower lvl players!
 
That sucks. I was in a similar boat last year. This year we had about half 3.5's and half 4.0's, and then all the 3.5's got bumped to 4.0. Your best bet is to get with one of the other 4.0's and pair up. Tell your captain that the two of you want to play together. That way at least YOU will get competitive matches. The 3.5's will probably get blown out in a 4.0 league.
 
vandre said:
... if so, don't most dbls leagues use a combine lvl (a 7.0 team could be two 3.5s or a 3 and a 4)? ...
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I think it's kind of a regional thing. Around here the leagues are comprised of people at the same level (unless someone is purposefully playing up a level). There are plenty of players at each level, so there are plenty of players for plenty of teams at each level. I think the "combo" leagues are for mixed doubles, and areas where there are fewer players. There may not be enough 3.5 and 4.0 players to have their own separate leagues, so they lump them all together in one "combo" league. I don't think the combo leagues have sectional or national play-off's either (except for mixed doubles), but I might be wrong on that.
 
Three things.

1) You must attach (tm) whenever using the phrase "Reverse Sandbagger" like this: Reverse Sandbagger (tm)

2) Can't you just back out of the team and find another one? Worst case you burn a bridge with a couple of reverse 'baggers (tm).

3) Why can't you play singles?
 
Well that was the risk you took for not getting on a team earlier or joining a club team. At our club, most of our self rate 3.5's can whack most of the 4.0's. They self rated in the fall before this massive bump up happend and didn't play in the spring. So be careful, as you may not be the best player on your team. If you are, play hard.
 
1) this is 4.0 adult league

2) i can't play singles because of leg issues :(

3) i am new to area and completely unknown by other captains, hence no offers to join established teams prior to new team formation deadline. :-|

4) yes could back out i guess but uncool to others and to league coordinator who got unassigned players together for a new team so we would all be able to participate.

5) had i known more than half of team would ultimately be S and C rated 3.5's i would have never joined. in fact, AFTER i registered for team on eve of deadline a captain on established team asked me to join! :evil:

6) i am the only "Benchmark" player on the team. :cry:
 
You may switch the team if you haven't played a game.

Also "B-Player" doesn't mean anything. I knew couple of players have been 3.0 benchmark players for 3 years in a row because they always lost in playoff. They even didn't got bumped in the last year's wave.

tom10s said:
6) i am the only "Benchmark" player on the team. :cry:
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As others have implied there is going to be quite a mix of players at both the 3.5 and 4.0 level this year.

First the self-rated 3.5s...who knows what their real level is. They might very well be nervous 4.0s who are coming back to the game and are conservatively rating themselves to give themselves a season to knock the rust off. We had a thread on the forum from a similar player...in the end he realized he was a solid 4.0 after beating a couple, but initially was thinking about self-rating 3.5.

As far as the computer rated 3.5s. I know for a fact 2 guys from our neighborhood group that did not get bumped up are every bit as good as the guys that got bumped to 4.0. It was just the quirk of how much, what court and which leagues they participated in. So some of the guys you will be facing that are 4.0 may not be any better than some of the guys on your team that are 3.5. I'm not saying your team will be a great team, they are a last minute throw together captainless team after all, but you may be more competitive than you think.

Another wildcard is you just don't know who has been improving their game and who has not. Some guys here are actively taking clinics, practicing, watching video and reading strategy and you can see pretty remarkable improvement (I like to think I'm one of them!)...others stay the same and are happy with it. They just like to get out and hit when they get a chance, love the social aspect, have decent skills and just don't feel the need to really push themselves at this point in their lives.

Finally, you mention you have a leg issue so you can't play singles. That's fine and its great you get out to play doubles, but keep in mind while you may not be thrilled with your teammates level, they may not be thrilled covering court that you may not be able to cover. We have a variety of players in our group who all bring various skills to the table. Some can play the net with solid put-away volleys nearly every time, but can't run down a ball in open court. That is great, but as a person that does run down balls like a madman, it can be frustrating to run down several tough balls only to lose the point b/c your partner has trouble moving to cover the court and the ball goes bouncing away. I'm not criticizing b/c like I say, everyone has a different skill set...I'm sure they cringe when I dump a volley into the net or wide, but a little perspective is good.

Finally, its only 1 season. Play it, enjoy it best you can and make friends and contacts on your team and others and hopefully next season you'll find a good fit. Good luck.
 
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Geezer Guy said:
I think it's kind of a regional thing. Around here the leagues are comprised of people at the same level (unless someone is purposefully playing up a level). There are plenty of players at each level, so there are plenty of players for plenty of teams at each level. I think the "combo" leagues are for mixed doubles, and areas where there are fewer players. There may not be enough 3.5 and 4.0 players to have their own separate leagues, so they lump them all together in one "combo" league. I don't think the combo leagues have sectional or national play-off's either (except for mixed doubles), but I might be wrong on that.
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thanks gg! what you posted seems to make sense to me, as my wife and i got an email about a 7.0 mixed dbls league our club is sponsoring. we're not gonna play in it as we don't have the desire to go through several sessions of marriage counselling! :twisted:
 
tom10s said:
I joined a newly formed 4.0 adult league team as the deadline for team formation was rapidly approaching. Now that others have joined, the team is compromised MOSTLY of computer rated and self-rated 3.5's. WTF?! The thought of playing doubles with "reverse sandbaggers" has absolutely no appeal. I don't know any of the other players but i doubt that computer rated 3.5's(especially after 2009 yr end bump) and self-rated 3.5's on a newly formed captainless team are going to be solid 4.0 doubles players ....possible but highly doubtful. I can't play singles so i am stuck playing doubles.

has anyone here dealt with similar situation?
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If you dont actually know any of these people then you might as well not get al that concerned about it. Sometimes if someone's rating says 3.5 or 4.0 it's pretty meaningless. (especially if they self rated, maybe someone just talked them into self rating low so they can win a pen at 3.5)

I had a team with 8 3.0 guys on it one year and we took 3rd place in 3.5, there is sometimes a bit of overlap there. It's pretty rare though I admit but it can happen sometimes.

The bigger worry with any hodge podge team like that is how whoever makes the lineup is going to handle it.

If they are smart enough to realize you are one of the better players and you should play with one of the other better players then you have nothing to worry about. (if they even really have enough knowledge to know who "the better players" are)

But if they feel that they want to stick a strong player with a weak player or they give you a new partner ever single week then you'll probably not have a great time regardless if they happen to be full of 3.5's or 4.0's.....
 
So your a 4 doubs player and not a 4 singles...you could try and help out this team with your experience if it's a new one...best thing in league is to just play and have fun and if you advance to the playoffs consider it gravy.
 
purple-n-gold said:
So your a 4 doubs player and not a 4 singles...you could try and help out this team with your experience if it's a new one...best thing in league is to just play and have fun and if you advance to the playoffs consider it gravy.
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That's a good point too. If it's in your personality to help newer players with some of the fine points or strategies of Doubles, and the players will accept (and not resent) your help, that would be a good learning experience for them. Some people are not comfortable about giving advice, and some people sure resent it when other people try to do it. If you go that route you should be somewhat selective in what you say, how you say it, and who you say it to.
 
Dog?!

I say, just enjoy being the Big Dog on the team. I've played on newly formed teams before and we lost as a team a lot - but I got a lot of respect with all my W's, and that helped my confidence.
 
Geezer Guy said:
That's a good point too. If it's in your personality to help newer players with some of the fine points or strategies of Doubles, and the players will accept (and not resent) your help, that would be a good learning experience for them. Some people are not comfortable about giving advice, and some people sure resent it when other people try to do it. If you go that route you should be somewhat selective in what you say, how you say it, and who you say it to.
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I would say... play if you want... but if you are just going to complain or resent playing with 3.5's then don't. Save them and you the aggravation of it.

As for supplying the finer points or strategies of doubles... don't do it unless you are being solicated... and even then only offer advice to those asking. There are a lot of people that do not want your help and resent getting it.

If you are in a match and want to something... offer it up as a team rather than an order. Start with the sentence... "do you think we should try something to mix our opponents"?

It is about the team... either be part of it... or find somewhere you would be happier playing. Whether that is on another team... or club ladder... or touraments only.
 
Doesn't sound like you have 'team' in your head so I would bow out and let them go on. I mean after all it's only 4.0 local league. It amazes me how serious some of the 3.5 guys I know take this stuff at the club I play at. Some of them think they are on tv. If you play and have fun then lose so be it. When you walk in the local market trust me they won't be point at your saying "hey that's the guy that lost a 4.0 doubles match last week, I read about it in the paper".
 
lots of good comments...thanks.
few thoughts/comments:

1) I am actually better at singles than doubles but don't play singles because i would be in pain for days after a match. quickness, speed, court coverage are strengths and not weaknesses of my game.

2) looks like almost all of the C rated 3.5's are also playing on 3.5 teams(different).

3) I have already met one of the 4.5 caliber ringers who formed all-ringer 4.0 team. Absolutely zero chance of making playoffs. I am actually looking forward to playing on a non-championship team for a change.
 
Keep in mind that some of these 3.5's are possibly solid 4.0's that self rate 3.5 and get their rocks off smoking 3.5's. I would save assumptions until after seeing the guys play.
 
Ripper014 said:
I would say... play if you want... but if you are just going to complain or resent playing with 3.5's then don't. Save them and you the aggravation of it.

As for supplying the finer points or strategies of doubles... don't do it unless you are being solicated... and even then only offer advice to those asking. There are a lot of people that do not want your help and resent getting it.

If you are in a match and want to something... offer it up as a team rather than an order. Start with the sentence... "do you think we should try something to mix our opponents"?

It is about the team... either be part of it... or find somewhere you would be happier playing. Whether that is on another team... or club ladder... or touraments only.
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I am totally new to this area so playing on any other team or tournaments or whatever is problematic when you play doubles only. in my previous area they ENFORCE a rule that stipulates at most 25% of roster can be "playing up"......this seems quite reasonable to avoid this very scenario.
 
tom10s said:
lots of good comments...thanks.
few thoughts/comments:

1) I am actually better at singles than doubles but don't play singles because i would be in pain for days after a match. quickness, speed, court coverage are strengths and not weaknesses of my game.

2) looks like almost all of the C rated 3.5's are also playing on 3.5 teams(different).

3) I have already met one of the 4.5 caliber ringers who formed all-ringer 4.0 team. Absolutely zero chance of making playoffs. I am actually looking forward to playing on a non-championship team for a change.
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Thanks for the clarification. Hope it works out to be an enjoyable season.
 
tom10s said:
I don't know any of the other players but i doubt that computer rated 3.5's(especially after 2009 yr end bump) and self-rated 3.5's on a newly formed captainless team are going to be solid 4.0 doubles players
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Why don't you step up and captain the team? Then you can choose your partner and which court you will play.
 
86golf said:
Well that was the risk you took for not getting on a team earlier or joining a club team. At our club, most of our self rate 3.5's can whack most of the 4.0's. They self rated in the fall before this massive bump up happend and didn't play in the spring. So be careful, as you may not be the best player on your team. If you are, play hard.
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Your team is a prime example of why the USTA is so messed up. People trying to manipulate/cheat the system.:confused:

You and your team should feel proud.:rolleyes:
 
LafayetteHitter said:
Keep in mind that some of these 3.5's are possibly solid 4.0's that self rate 3.5 and get their rocks off smoking 3.5's. I would save assumptions until after seeing the guys play.
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I agree- play some actual matches and get to know all the guys before you come to any conclusions. If it turns out you are indeed the best player on the team, well that is not really a bad position to be in is it?. The team will depend on you and you are needed entity. Play one season with them and see how it goes and then decide what you want to do. I would not bail on them just yet.
 
Is this for the spring USTA league? I thought the new rule is that the team must comprise of at least 75% of players playing AT level. Or is that only pertinent here in my region...?
 
cknobman said:
Your team is a prime example of why the USTA is so messed up. People trying to manipulate/cheat the system.:confused:

You and your team should feel proud.:rolleyes:
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I agree, the number 1 junior in the 17's from last year self rated at 3.5 here in Laf. He wins open division tournaments routinely.
 
update:
couple more real 4.0's have joined the team which is now "only" 50% 3.5's...
at a team practice i got to play with 4 of the 3.5's....one of them can hang at 4.0 comfortably :), another is ok , but the other two are flat out 3.5's and should not be playing up unless explicitly asked by a captain imo. they simply don't have 4.0 skills in any facet of the game, and they are not trying to develope 4.0 skills from talking to them. one of them even sheepishly apologized at start of set saying "don't expect much help, i'm just a 3.5" :|

it turns out that ALL of the 3.5's are also playing 3.5 league. best i could figure the only reason they play up is because "4.0 league matches on different day of week than 3.5"....thus they can. where i have played in past, 3.5 and 4.0 matches are on same day of week and often same time, effectively foiling this penchant for playing up just because you can. i have absolutely no doubt that most of these guys would play 3.5 only if they had to play one or the other.
 
tom10s said:
I joined a newly formed 4.0 adult league team as the deadline for team formation was rapidly approaching. Now that others have joined, the team is compromised MOSTLY of computer rated and self-rated 3.5's. WTF?! The thought of playing doubles with "reverse sandbaggers" has absolutely no appeal. I don't know any of the other players but i doubt that computer rated 3.5's(especially after 2009 yr end bump) and self-rated 3.5's on a newly formed captainless team are going to be solid 4.0 doubles players ....possible but highly doubtful. I can't play singles so i am stuck playing doubles.

has anyone here dealt with similar situation?
Click to expand...

You agreed to play in a league without hitting/seeing your 3.5 team mates? Sucks to be you, esp. since you're 4.0 USTA. Enjoy your $21 league fee.
 
Have you taken a look at the makeup of the other teams in your league? I took a quick look at the 4.0 teams in our area. Almost all have a significant dose of 3.5s thrown in. Our neighborhood team has 6. I think with the big bump, a number of teams decided to basically stay together either due to friendship or they know some of their old 3.5 teammates are just as good as they are.

In your case it's beyond me why the 2 below par 3.5s decided to join a newly formed 4.0 team. Usually around here the only match pressure mentioned is worry about letting your partner down...so those 2 playing up knowing they aren't upper level 3.5s is strange.

In our local 4.0 league the 2 teams with the least 3.5s is one team with only one...from a club that perennially are in the playoff hunt, and another team (from the same club) that has zero 3.5's but 2 3.0s...no doubt self-rated. :rolleyes:
 
athiker said:
Have you taken a look at the makeup of the other teams in your league? I took a quick look at the 4.0 teams in our area. Almost all have a significant dose of 3.5s thrown in. Our neighborhood team has 6. I think with the big bump, a number of teams decided to basically stay together either due to friendship or they know some of their old 3.5 teammates are just as good as they are.

In your case it's beyond me why the 2 below par 3.5s decided to join a newly formed 4.0 team. Usually around here the only match pressure mentioned is worry about letting your partner down...so those 2 playing up knowing they aren't upper level 3.5s is strange.

In our local 4.0 league the 2 teams with the least 3.5s is one team with only one...from a club that perennially are in the playoff hunt, and another team (from the same club) that has zero 3.5's but 2 3.0s...no doubt self-rated. :rolleyes:
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looked at other teams in flight. there are as many 3.5's on my team as there are in the entire rest of the flight combined. :shock:
 
Its time to give up tennis and pursue other activities, these 3.5 people can have a devastating effect on all aspects of your life if you don't take precaution.
 
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tom10s said:
update:
couple more real 4.0's have joined the team which is now "only" 50% 3.5's...
at a team practice i got to play with 4 of the 3.5's....one of them can hang at 4.0 comfortably :), another is ok , but the other two are flat out 3.5's and should not be playing up unless explicitly asked by a captain imo. they simply don't have 4.0 skills in any facet of the game, and they are not trying to develope 4.0 skills from talking to them. one of them even sheepishly apologized at start of set saying "don't expect much help, i'm just a 3.5" :|

it turns out that ALL of the 3.5's are also playing 3.5 league. best i could figure the only reason they play up is because "4.0 league matches on different day of week than 3.5"....thus they can. where i have played in past, 3.5 and 4.0 matches are on same day of week and often same time, effectively foiling this penchant for playing up just because you can. i have absolutely no doubt that most of these guys would play 3.5 only if they had to play one or the other.
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update:
as expected, the 3.5's are performing dismally in matches against 4.0's. let's be honest, anyone who is a computer rated 3.5 after 2009's yr end bumps is TRULY a 3.5 in all likelihood. all my matches have been with 3.5 partners. these are nice guys, fun to play with...blah blah. frustratingly, they employ disastrous 3.5 doubles tactics over and over.
 
tom10s said:
update:
as expected, the 3.5's are performing dismally in matches against 4.0's. let's be honest, anyone who is a computer rated 3.5 after 2009's yr end bumps is TRULY a 3.5 in all likelihood. all my matches have been with 3.5 partners. these are nice guys, fun to play with...blah blah. frustratingly, they employ disastrous 3.5 doubles tactics over and over.
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Man. Sounds rough.

I don't mind being a strong player on a team of weaker players, so long as I have a partner who is my level. There are certain advantages, namely that you know you will always get to play and against the toughest opponents.

Buck up, mate. Having to carry weak partners can do wonders for your own doubles.

And, uh. There's always next year! :)
 
Cindysphinx said:
Man. Sounds rough.

I don't mind being a strong player on a team of weaker players, so long as I have a partner who is my level. There are certain advantages, namely that you know you will always get to play and against the toughest opponents.

Buck up, mate. Having to carry weak partners can do wonders for your own doubles.

And, uh. There's always next year! :)
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The captain is one of the 3.5's :(
And in typical 3.0/3.5 mentality thinks one should partner a 3.5 with a 4.0. All this does is guarantee losses at both courts. 4.0's are smarter and frankly meaner than 3.5's. They isolate and mercilessly attack the weaker player. And since 3.5's typically are obscessed with 1 up 1 back losing formation, they make it even easier for 4.0's to pick on them. If the team goes winless through first half of season(which appears likely) i will politely rec to captain to partner stronger players *together* if he actually wants to win a match. I guess he needs to learn this lesson the hard way.

to answer earlier question "what keeps me on this team"? answer: despite frustrations listed above it is fun playing in this league and i am new to the area. i see no reason to quit mid season.
 
Nah, don't quit.

But yes, you are correct that it is a losing proposition to partner weak and strong players together, IMHO, for lots of reasons.

The match turns into a game of X-Treme Keep-away, with the opponents hitting everything to the 3.5. The errors and the frustration mount.

The 4.0 player and 3.5 player are often used to different formations and styles, so both are out of sorts.

The 3.5 player doesn't play up to his potential and defers to the 4.0 player, who feels compelled to do more than he can comfortably do.

My experience in pairing weak players together is that they often rise to the occasion. They know that if they don't put away a ball, no one will. And when they do pull off an upset, they are thrilled and brimming with confidence for the next time.

On the other hand, when the weak player wins with the stronger partner, the weak player often is blinded to the weaknesses in his game and is less motivated to improve.

That's how it has worked for me, anyway.
 
tom10s said:
4.0's are smarter and frankly meaner than 3.5's.
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Agreed 100%.

4.0s are nasty, mean and rude. They are relentless and boneheaded for the most part.

3.0s - 3.5s are gentleman, folks I want to have a beer with.

land-of-the-lost1.jpg
 
I like getting put against 4.0, I like playing up it makes me better! If i am playing with a weaker player I have to make sure I don't make as many mistakes, and do more when i have the chance, and try to motivate and teach! This being said I have a better unimpressive record LOL.
Just have fun! Improve your team, Bond with the players you like on the team! Win and move up!
 
Just beat the crap out of everyone and you will be moved up. Enjoy being the big dog. Of course it's sometimes hard to beat people who have little ball control but this will be a learning experience.
 
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