4.5 Men's 18&over Nationals - Surprise, Arizona

jdawgg

Semi-Pro
My team also made it! Excited to see the schedule when it's out.

Wonder if the Essential Tennis 4.5 team will make it, they look solid. Looks like they made it past locals? Didn't see any Sectionals link on their team page. Would be hilarious to see them there or even face them.
 

McLovin

Legend
I'll be out there Oct 9th & 10th, then maybe again the 15th.

Not playing...my lone 4.5 40+ team didn't make the cut...but to visit my daughter who will be there for 3 weeks working the 3.5 & 4.5 tournaments (so everyone be nice!). So we're going out to visit her for a bit, then up to Sedona & the Grand Canyon for a hike.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Will be cool to see everyone out here. Hope to get to meet up or at least watch some of you all play.

My team also made it! Excited to see the schedule when it's out.

Wonder if the Essential Tennis 4.5 team will make it, they look solid. Looks like they made it past locals? Didn't see any Sectionals link on their team page. Would be hilarious to see them there or even face them.

I thought I saw Sansait just post they are going to sectionals.
 

jhick

Hall of Fame
Will be cool to see everyone out here. Hope to get to meet up or at least watch some of you all play.




I thought I saw Sansait just post they are going to sectionals.
Yeah it looks like they won a 3-2 match at Areas/State this past weekend. I'm guessing they still need to advance through sectionals to get to nationals.
 

Creighton

Semi-Pro
Yeah it looks like they won a 3-2 match at Areas/State this past weekend. I'm guessing they still need to advance through sectionals to get to nationals.
Is Ian not one of their 8 best players or are they just saving him for nationals?
 

jdawgg

Semi-Pro
Only playing 2 out of roughly 9 matches is more than an availability issue.
Not necessarily, some people are busy adulting, as OnTheLine mentioned.

Also:

Two matches you say? That's the magic number to qualify for Sectionals, AKA minimum number of matches needed to qualify for Sectionals.

Ian is a self-rate, thus subject to disqualification if he gets three strikes. Teams will play those players a minimum number of matches if they're worried about strike outs. I'd be surprised though, because DQs don't happen very often at 4.5. Have to be way out of level. Actually, at PNW sectionals one player did strike out after his first match. I'd guess he was a high 5.0 singles player (don't see those too often at 4.5).
 
Not sure their section’s rule on qualifying for sectionals, but you only need to have 2 matches for nationals this year. In Texas self rates needed 3 matches for sectionals, so some players that didn’t have the matches for sectionals might actually be eligible for nationals.
 

Creighton

Semi-Pro
Not necessarily, some people are busy adulting, as OnTheLine mentioned.

Also:

Two matches you say? That's the magic number to qualify for Sectionals, AKA minimum number of matches needed to qualify for Sectionals.

Ian is a self-rate, thus subject to disqualification if he gets three strikes. Teams will play those players a minimum number of matches if they're worried about strike outs. I'd be surprised though, because DQs don't happen very often at 4.5. Have to be way out of level. Actually, at PNW sectionals one player did strike out after his first match. I'd guess he was a high 5.0 singles player (don't see those too often at 4.5).
Yeah that was my question. Are they doing it nefariously to prevent Ian from being disqualified?
 

jdawgg

Semi-Pro
Yeah that was my question. Are they doing it nefariously to prevent Ian from being disqualified?
Your question was actually whether or not Ian was a top 8 player on his team. lol

Looking at tennisrecord.com, Ian's matches put him at 4.49 and 4.59 dynamic ratings for each match (which are quite high). The guy that got DQ'd in our region had 4.63ish dynamic ratings for his matches. Ian might actually be in or close to strike land. Is it nefarious to not play that player? Definitely nefarious to drop games.
 

Creighton

Semi-Pro
Your question was actually whether or not Ian was a top 8 player on his team. lol

Looking at tennisrecord.com, Ian's matches put him at 4.49 and 4.59 dynamic ratings for each match (which are quite high). The guy that got DQ'd in our region had 4.63ish dynamic ratings for his matches. Ian might actually be in or close to strike land. Is it nefarious to not play that player? Definitely nefarious to drop games.
No my question was Ian a top 8 player or are they saving him for nationals I.e. cheating the system to ensure he doesn’t get disqualified.
 

Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
Is there a site that gives the brackets of the actual teams that played in regionals and the actual teams that will be playing in Nationals?

Sorry if I am just missing the site but I have tried finding this with google and couldn't find either.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Is there a site that gives the brackets of the actual teams that played in regionals and the actual teams that will be playing in Nationals?

Sorry if I am just missing the site but I have tried finding this with google and couldn't find either.
Here is the high level Nationals schedule for 18s 4.5: https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/2021-pdfs/18 Over 4.5 final 9-17-21.pdf

To drill down into the actual teams, you need to do some homework in TennisLink. Go to Home > TennisLink > USTA League > Stats & Standings > Advanced Search and type in the parameters that you are searching for (like Year = 2021, League Type = Adult18&Over, NTRP - 4.5, Gender = Male, Level = National Championships.) Here's what that report generated for me: https://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/Main/statsandstandings.aspx#&&s=9||79283||118470||2021||20

From within TennisLink, you can click around and find the results you need for each team. You might need to run a Sectional level report for each Section to get those, although I usually just research each team that we're going to play individually. You can also look at player and team records in TennisRecord.com for reconnaissance, although the ratings there are a bit wonky. And finally, if you are wanting to get actual ratings comparisons for lineup decisions, @schmke offers that service from his ratings database, which is the closest you'll get to the USTA computer.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Well hopefully it isn’t raining like today’s finals day for the combo championships. Still got play in enough to cram it in!
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Well hopefully it isn’t raining like today’s finals day for the combo championships. Still got play in enough to cram it in!

Looks like the weather will be great. Unfortuately I am heading up north to look at some investment properties all weekend so will miss the action! All the best to those competing! Get some pics and videos for us.
 

Ian10s

New User
Are grievances allowed to be filed prior to Nationals starting? I saw that a lot of self rates on current college teams. Was just wondering.
 
I believe you have 48 hours from the end of that Section's Sectionals to file any grievances, even if you're from another Section. Not a very grievance-friendly rule, but there you go. I tried it once and got that answer.

As to college players, I believe if they self-rated before joining the team, then the fact that they are currently on a college team is not used against them.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Which sections are generally the strongest?
Here is a list of the men's 18 & over 4.5 national championship results since 2003:

Year1st Place2nd Place3rd Place4th Place
2003Mid-AtlanticNorthern CaliforniaNew EnglandSouthwest
2004Northern CaliforniaSouthernSouthwestNew England
2005Southern CaliforniaMid-AtlanticMissouri ValleyCaribbean
2006TexasFloridaMiddle StatesSouthern
2007HawaiiNew EnglandMiddle StatesTexas
2008SouthernMissouri ValleyMid-AtlanticCaribbean
2009NorthernNorthern CaliforniaMid-AtlanticSouthern
2010CaribbeanMid-westTexasSouthern California
2011Middle StatesSouthern CaliforniaSouthernPacific Northwest
2012SouthwestMid-AtlanticSouthern CaliforniaTexas
2013SouthernPacific NorthwestNorthernIntermountain
2014Pacific NorthwestSouthernTexasCaribbean
2015Mid-westSouthern CaliforniaSouthernTexas
2016EasternSouthern CaliforniaSouthwestMid-Atlantic
2017Mid-westMid-AtlanticTexasFlorida
2018Mid-westTexasNorthern CaliforniaSouthern California
2019Mid-AtlanticSouthernMid-westMiddle States

If you assign a point value so that champions get 4 points, runner-up 3 points, 3rd place 2 points, and 4th place at 1 point, this is how each section has done in the men's 18s 4.5 category over those 17 years:

SectionPoints
Southern23
Mid-Atlantic22
Mid-west17
Southern California17
Texas16
Northern California12
Middle States9
Southwest9
Pacific Northwest8
Caribbean7
New England6
Northern6
Missouri Valley5
Eastern4
Florida4
Hawaii4
Intermountain1

From this, you can see that the top Sections for producing great 4.5 teams at Nationals are Southern, Mid-Atlantic, the Mid-west, Southern California, Texas, and Northern California.

If you extrapolated this out for other NTRP levels, I bet the overall results are fairly similar. In fact, I'm sure that someone like @schmke might even have those numbers in his previous studies.

What is somewhat surprising is that Intermountain's best result in all those years was a single 4th place finish. I know that there are some great tennis locations in that Section, including Denver, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and Boise. I guess those people have other things to do than stack all the best players on one team to make consistent runs, at least at 4.5. However, the fact that Intermountain is so geographically dispersed might be a factor as well. Going to Sectionals there is probably a big travel expense.

All that said, a 4.5 is a 4.5 regardless of where they are. Meaning, a good 4.5 in the Pacific Northwest is going to be a good 4.5 in the Southern Section as well. The advantage of some of these successful Sections is that they just have more players of that level to choose from, and to win at Nationals, you typically have to get a group of the best players from an area to combine all together with the goal of winning.
 
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MarinaHighTennis

Professional
How are you guys feeling about your chances? It should be a close final day between So Cal, Southern, Mid Atlantic, and Florida. I could see any of them finishing in that 4th qualifying spot.
I think it'll be determined by our match with southern at 11am. If we win, were in for that last spot.
 

MarinaHighTennis

Professional
How are you guys feeling about your chances? It should be a close final day between So Cal, Southern, Mid Atlantic, and Florida. I could see any of them finishing in that 4th qualifying spot.
Beat southern 3-2 but bc we thought we were out of the running we put the rest of our players in and won 3-2 the next match. Sadly, we found out we only needed 2 sets more to make it to the semis so 5th place for us
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Beat southern 3-2 but bc we thought we were out of the running we put the rest of our players in and won 3-2 the next match. Sadly, we found out we only needed 2 sets more to make it to the semis so 5th place for us
Well done on 5th! That is a nice accomplishment.

Oaf, who is doing your math? :eek: But Northern did have strong singles players, getting one of those might have been tough regardless.

Note, it appears you lost the tie-breaker due to your head to head loss to MoValley, not the sets tie-breaker. You actually lost fewer sets (the tie-breaker used) but had lost your first match to them. But perhaps you are meaning had you won one more court somewhere along the lines you would have been 4th.
 
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jdawgg

Semi-Pro
PNW here. We lost two very very close singles 10 pt tiebreaks to mo valley but beat them 3-2. Even had a match point against their best singles player. Sorry SoCal!
 

MarinaHighTennis

Professional
Well done on 5th! That is a nice accomplishment.

Oaf, who is doing your math? :eek: But Northern did have strong singles players, getting one of those might have been tough regardless.

Note, it appears you lost the tie-breaker due to your head to head loss to MoValley, not the sets tie-breaker. You actually lost fewer sets (the tie-breaker used) but had lost your first match to them. But perhaps you are meaning had you won one more court somewhere along the lines you would have been 4th.
Ah yeah we lost to the head to head Mo valley bc we didn't play best players there too. Our team generally is very strong in doubles where if we play our best guys our 1,2,3 are all equal but we lack a singles ringer. Our singles are strong but could lose to anyone still with a battle

@jdawgg who is your singles guy? We saw the score and we're like oh dang bc we only saw southern with a singles guy in par with him.
 
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jdawgg

Semi-Pro
Haha, the singles guy is our #1 doubles guy (didn’t play a singles match all year) but he’s my practice partner for singles.

Im our best singles player, went 3-0 for the week didn’t drop a set but didn’t get to play a teams #1 singles player.
 

MarinaHighTennis

Professional
Texas here. We are in semis vs Southern. Looking forward to a battle but no matter what glad to make it this far.
Ah goodluck! They have 2 strong singles and 1 doubles so hopefully the lineups plays right. I believe they have 4 college players (for sure 3) and they are deep enough just to rotate them around
 

Creighton

Semi-Pro
Ah goodluck! They have 2 strong singles and 1 doubles so hopefully the lineups plays right. I believe they have 4 college players (for sure 3) and they are deep enough just to rotate them around
The funny part is they actually won Southern by winning all 3 dubs and losing both singles.
 

Vox Rationis

Semi-Pro
Ah goodluck! They have 2 strong singles and 1 doubles so hopefully the lineups plays right. I believe they have 4 college players (for sure 3) and they are deep enough just to rotate them around
I’m pretty sure all those “college guys” are actually 23-30ish years old haha. They’ve all graduated for sure. The rest of their team are all late 30s and above that I know of.
 
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