40 4.5+ USTA League

Gut4Tennis

Gut4Tennis

Hall of Fame
Hi all.

On my team we have 17 players

2 usta rated 5.0's and 8 4.5's that used to be 5.0's. So 10 of our 17 players could be legit 5.0's

I'm curious if anyone knows of a stronger sounding team?

We finished the local league 12-0 32 court wins & 4 court losses

I'll be very shocked if we don't get to nationals and do well, but you never know.

Not trying to brag or anything( as we've really accomplished nothing yet), just curious of any other strong 40 and over 4.5+ teams. If so I wish you all the best this year.


**UPDATE**
The national championships have been played. Here are the brackets to view the results
http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/...der=M&TLNodeID=DB00BBAD02E0A0F3D5E46B5A59382F

My section, the Mid-Atlantic Section won as promised.

Here are the semi-finals and finals
http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/...D=DB00E0C1D890DA42FDAFB9EA69481F7E&CYear=2015
 
Last edited:
Gut4Tennis said:
Hi all.

On my team we have 17 players

2 usta rated 5.0's and 8 4.5's that used to be 5.0's. So 10 of our 17 players could be legit 5.0's

I'm curious if anyone knows of a stronger sounding team?

We finished the local league 12-0 32 court wins & 4 court losses

I'll be very shocked if we dont get to nationals and do well, but you never know.

Not trying to brag or anything( as we've really accomplished nothing yet), just curious of any other strong 40 and over 4.5+ teams. If so I wish you all the best this year.
Click to expand...

Very impressive and certainly near the top of the heap.

But I just did a quick check of the average rating for 40 & over 4.5+ men's team rosters using the starting rating I had for players this year and your team was 36th with an average of 4.38.

However, your team's averaging rating has improved, up to 4.42, and you are now 17th. Who is ahead of you? The teams are from Florida (3), NorCal (3), Georgia (4), SoCal, North Carolina (3), Texas (1), Hawaii (1), and SoCal (1). You are the strongest team in your section, the next closest average being 4.37.

So there you go, anything short of Nationals should be a disappointment :)

Note: All the standard caveats about using average ratings to compare teams apply.
 
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schmke said:
Very impressive and certainly near the top of the heap.

But I just did a quick check of the average rating for 40 & over 4.5+ men's team rosters using the starting rating I had for players this year and your team was 36th with an average of 4.38.

However, your team's averaging rating has improved, up to 4.42, and you are now 10th. Who is ahead of you? The teams are from Hawaii, Florida (2 of them), Georgia (3 of them), SoCal, and North Carolina (2 of them). You are the strongest team in your section, the next closest average being 4.37.

So there you go, anything short of Nationals should be a disappointment :)

Note: All the standard caveats about using average ratings to compare teams apply.
Click to expand...

great stuff. You never fail in the research and rating department.


I had a feeling ... thanks
 
Good stuff, thanks for doing this and posting. Which 40+ 4.0 NC / Lake Norman team has the highest rating? Any chance you could post similar ratings for 55+ 4.0? Thanks
 
ncgator said:
Good stuff, thanks for doing this and posting. Which 40+ 4.0 NC / Lake Norman team has the highest rating? Any chance you could post similar ratings for 55+ 4.0? Thanks
Click to expand...

Glad you like it. The highest rated Lake Norman team is not the one currently shown first in the standings! Ok, it is a W/L tie broken by sets lost, but is an upset sub-flight winner in the brewing? Looks like the teams play each other soon though.
 
I was looking forward to over 40 4.5 league, but I think our best 40 and over team would have a good shot at winning 18 and over 4.5 too...geesh, :)
 
ace18 said:
I was looking forward to over 40 4.5 league, but I think our best 40 and over team would have a good shot at winning 18 and over 4.5 too...geesh, :)
Click to expand...

Remember, 40 & over 4.5 is 4.5+ so there are some 5.0s in there increasing the average ratings.

And who is to say that a 40+ 4.5 isn't equivalent to a 18+ one? A rating is a rating based on results, it doesn't care about age. Now, you might expect there to be a larger pool of strong 4.5s in 18+, but if a 40+ captain recruits well, they can find the strong ones and be equivalent on paper to an 18+ 4.5 team, if not better due to the 5.0s on the roster.
 
you are right that a 4.5 is a 4.5 but there is a HUGE variance between 4.5s in my neck of the woods. There are a lot of middle of the road 4.5's that no longer play because you have the sandbagger 4.5's infiltrated. As a 50 year old, you would hope that a 40 and over 4.5 league would be a little more laid back, not a "stack and sandbag the best players you can get" so you can dominate 18 and 40 and over. Its too much to ask to have players actually play their level, rather than, lose matches, games, ect, in order to protect their rating.
 
ace18 said:
you are right that a 4.5 is a 4.5 but there is a HUGE variance between 4.5s in my neck of the woods. There are a lot of middle of the road 4.5's that no longer play because you have the sandbagger 4.5's infiltrated. As a 50 year old, you would hope that a 40 and over 4.5 league would be a little more laid back, not a "stack and sandbag the best players you can get" so you can dominate 18 and 40 and over. Its too much to ask to have players actually play their level, rather than, lose matches, games, ect, in order to protect their rating.
Click to expand...

You are right that the 40 & over crowd probably is more laid back. But when looking at the top-5 teams by average rating in the nation, that isn't going to show itself. All it takes is 1% to be out to win and you'll get 5 teams that look really strong.

But also, a 4.5+ team having an average rating around 4.5 doesn't mean they are sandbagging. For example, one of the teams in the 4.5+ top-5 has two strong 5.0s pulling the average up, and only one 4.5 with a dynamic rating over 4.5 (and that just 4.57). Then they didn't pad their roster with lower rated 4.5s, so they naturally have a high average. Recruiting the best players at a level is not the same as sandbagging.
 
I fully agree that recruiting the best players at a level is not sandbagging. It is, however, sandbagging, when the best players at that level purposely lose matches to stay at that level. I guess that's the point I want to make. Silly of me to have an expectation that the 40 and over crowd would be more inclined to play good tennis and have fun, then build teams with players that are clearly not at the level they sign up and play. One of the biggest reasons I no longer play USTA. I do play in another Senior League, its 45 and over, not USTA affiliated, and you typically don't see this type of manipulation. Its good tennis, good camaraderie, but you don't see these former college studs puffing their chests.
 
And I agree that sandbagging does occur, I've seen and written about it before, and wish the USTA could/would bring down the hammer on folks that do it.

My point was just that a team with a high average rating is not necessarily filled with sandbaggers.
 
schmke said:
Glad you like it. The highest rated Lake Norman team is not the one currently shown first in the standings! Ok, it is a W/L tie broken by sets lost, but is an upset sub-flight winner in the brewing? Looks like the teams play each other soon though.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I captain the LNTC team, and our match was rained out a couple weeks ago, and will also reschedule April 11th match due to Spring Break. I also captain a 55+ 4.0 team that should make a good run this year. Hoping for some good results at states since we will likely get several players bumped back to 4.5 at year-end.
 
ace18 said:
I fully agree that recruiting the best players at a level is not sandbagging. It is, however, sandbagging, when the best players at that level purposely lose matches to stay at that level. I guess that's the point I want to make. Silly of me to have an expectation that the 40 and over crowd would be more inclined to play good tennis and have fun, then build teams with players that are clearly not at the level they sign up and play. One of the biggest reasons I no longer play USTA. I do play in another Senior League, its 45 and over, not USTA affiliated, and you typically don't see this type of manipulation. Its good tennis, good camaraderie, but you don't see these former college studs puffing their chests.
Click to expand...

when players at all levels do it..., then is it not sandbagging?
 
schmke said:
You are right that the 40 & over crowd probably is more laid back. But when looking at the top-5 teams by average rating in the nation, that isn't going to show itself. All it takes is 1% to be out to win and you'll get 5 teams that look really strong.

But also, a 4.5+ team having an average rating around 4.5 doesn't mean they are sandbagging. For example, one of the teams in the 4.5+ top-5 has two strong 5.0s pulling the average up, and only one 4.5 with a dynamic rating over 4.5 (and that just 4.57). Then they didn't pad their roster with lower rated 4.5s, so they naturally have a high average. Recruiting the best players at a level is not the same as sandbagging.
Click to expand...

This sounds like one of the Norcal teams. They have 2 guys who were bumped down from 5.5. this year as well as one guy who was bumped down from 5.0 who probably shouldn't have been. They will most likely be tough to beat.
 
ace18 said:
I fully agree that recruiting the best players at a level is not sandbagging. It is, however, sandbagging, when the best players at that level purposely lose matches to stay at that level. I guess that's the point I want to make. Silly of me to have an expectation that the 40 and over crowd would be more inclined to play good tennis and have fun, then build teams with players that are clearly not at the level they sign up and play. One of the biggest reasons I no longer play USTA. I do play in another Senior League, its 45 and over, not USTA affiliated, and you typically don't see this type of manipulation. Its good tennis, good camaraderie, but you don't see these former college studs puffing their chests.
Click to expand...

Sounds like sour grapes to me.
 
40 years and older time becomes somewhat of an equalizer even to those former high level players. It is the most fun and competitive tennis I've played.
 
mikeler said:
Are you on of Gut's 5.0 players? That's actually a good way to get bumped down if you can play some weak 4.5 players.
Click to expand...

No, his 5.0s are 'legitimate' 5.0s. One of them (the Swede) is possibly a 5.5. He wins major 40+ USTA tournaments in our area, and is usually seeded in the National ones.

The other 5.0 was a 4.5 two years ago, and he pretty much cleaned house at that level.

There were other factors as well, in that (1) I'm playing soccer & hockey and in addition to being on downs_chris's 5.0 team couldn't find the time to get out where they play, and (2) I wasn't asked...
 
schmke mentioned my team in Tx but a different level on his blog. I feel famous, lol .
Gut, it looks like you got a great shot add more glory to that growing trophy case.
 
asimple said:
This sounds like one of the Norcal teams. They have 2 guys who were bumped down from 5.5. this year as well as one guy who was bumped down from 5.0 who probably shouldn't have been. They will most likely be tough to beat.
Click to expand...

Bash and Crash said:
Which Norcal team is it?
Click to expand...

It sounds like our team out of San Carlos/Arguello Park, but we still have our local league playoff match to win this Saturday before we start thinking about Districts and beyond.
 
marshaman said:
It sounds like our team out of San Carlos/Arguello Park, but we still have our local league playoff match to win this Saturday before we start thinking about Districts and beyond.
Click to expand...

If the team I see is correct, your team is 9-0 with only 4 teams total. This would mean you have no playoffs to play?
 
I have a feeling the teams with very few players, but just really good ones have the highest rating average

This can be an advantage in many ways, unless someone gets injured or has a problem with travel.

Once we get to districts and sectionals all the teams will be playing 5 courts vs 3 in the regular season, so I wonder how this change will effect things
 
Gut4Tennis said:
If the team I see is correct, your team is 9-0 with only 4 teams total. This would mean you have no playoffs to play?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is our team, but our NorCal (NCTA) rules state: Flights of five or fewer teams will have a two-team playoff on the first weekend. The winner advances to District Championships.
 
marshaman said:
Yes, that is our team, but our NorCal (NCTA) rules state: Flights of five or fewer teams will have a two-team playoff on the first weekend. The winner advances to District Championships.
Click to expand...

wow that really allows teams to kinda not try very hard in matches and possibly sandbag.

Seems like your team is all business. Good luck
 
Gut4Tennis said:
I have a feeling the teams with very few players, but just really good ones have the highest rating average
Click to expand...

Yep, this is one of the shortcomings with using average for a team. Small/strong rosters will have a lot higher average than larger rosters that carry some lower rated players as bench warmers or extras.

I'll try to include some other stats in the future to shed a little more light on the subject.
 
marshaman said:
Yes, that is our team, but our NorCal (NCTA) rules state: Flights of five or fewer teams will have a two-team playoff on the first weekend. The winner advances to District Championships.
Click to expand...

Ahh, I remember your Captain from juniors, played a few times. Played another one of your guys back in 2013 Sectionals on our way to nationals, you guys are solid.
 
mikeler said:
Are you playing 40+, 4.5+ this year?
Click to expand...

Probably, been battling SLAP tears in my shoulder since before 2013 Nationals. Every time I start to ramp up playing time shoulder as well as neck get cranky. My TPC captain asked if I wanted to play so I may take a shot. Too much time teaching vs. playing and the game is just not quite at the level I would like.
 
Bash and Crash said:
Probably, been battling SLAP tears in my shoulder since before 2013 Nationals. Every time I start to ramp up playing time shoulder as well as neck get cranky. My TPC captain asked if I wanted to play so I may take a shot. Too much time teaching vs. playing and the game is just not quite at the level I would like.
Click to expand...

dude go get a chiropractic adjustment

those fkers are miracle workers.
 
I'd be careful about going to a chiro, my cousin was seeing one and he ended up having a stroke, he survived and is recovering but the medical bills are out of control and he is definitely impaired. Google it if you think it's a joke.
 
atatu said:
I'd be careful about going to a chiro, my cousin was seeing one and he ended up having a stroke, he survived and is recovering but the medical bills are out of control and he is definitely impaired. Google it if you think it's a joke.
Click to expand...

I'd be careful about going to any doctor, my dad was seeing one and the drugs he gave him killed him. Not many medical bills though as it just killed him within a few days. Google it if you think its a joke.
 
Gut4Tennis said:
I'd be careful about going to any doctor, my dad was seeing one and the drugs he gave him killed him. Not many medical bills though as it just killed him within a few days. Google it if you think its a joke.
Click to expand...

Well since we're all going to die from Ebola, I guess it doesn't matter.
 
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