40 4.5+ USTA League

tennis tom said:
I think you guys should get your teams over to here and duel it out on paper at TT--maybe play some 5.0 Pac-Man to settle it. It would be much more efficient, slow down global warming, rather then have to get on trains, planes and automobiles, having to brave inclement weather and forest fires playing matches--at the same time could get some work in at the office multi-tasking.
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Ha, I'd be lucky to beat a below average 4.5 at the moment. I'm in a slump.
 
tennis tom said:
Must have hit a nerve in the butt with that one--hook up with Serena, she's probably twerking away getting over her big loss at the USO.
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Gut4Tennis said:
I like our underdog chances

I wonder how often the top rating team wins it
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Not always certainly, it isn't a whole lot different than favorites winning or being upset in other sports.

Comparing ratings can be fun, but teams rarely play only their top-8 every match and teams can juggle line-ups to get favorable match-ups on 3 of the 5 courts and actually be favored to pull an upset over a team that has a higher top-8 average. And of course, players rarely play to their exact rating, so how everyone does on a given day and reacts to the pressure of playing a match tie-break when the team score is 2-2 can be a huge factor.

I will try to look at how often the highest average team wins a flight or round of playoffs, but I have looked at how often the player(s) with the higher rating win an individual court by different in ratings and you can see what I wrote here: http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2015/02/how-accurate-are-2015-dynamic-ntrp.html
 
Gut4Tennis said:
yes indeed. Much better then Tuscon, as I've been there 4 times, and never to IW

should be an enjoyable tennis vacation
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Indian Wells is great. My teammates went to Tuscon the year before and said it is not nearly as nice. That being said, I don't really care for the desert except for the fact that you don't have to worry about rain messing up your tennis plans.
 
mikeler said:
Indian Wells is great. My teammates went to Tuscon the year before and said it is not nearly as nice. That being said, I don't really care for the desert except for the fact that you don't have to worry about rain messing up your tennis plans.
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yeah if it rains we could possibly play 8 game pro sets with no add for nationals. lol

paying 1k at least for a trip you want to play some tennis... hopefully all works out
 
schmke said:
Not always certainly, it isn't a whole lot different than favorites winning or being upset in other sports.

Comparing ratings can be fun, but teams rarely play only their top-8 every match and teams can juggle line-ups to get favorable match-ups on 3 of the 5 courts and actually be favored to pull an upset over a team that has a higher top-8 average. And of course, players rarely play to their exact rating, so how everyone does on a given day and reacts to the pressure of playing a match tie-break when the team score is 2-2 can be a huge factor.

I will try to look at how often the highest average team wins a flight or round of playoffs, but I have looked at how often the player(s) with the higher rating win an individual court by different in ratings and you can see what I wrote here: http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2015/02/how-accurate-are-2015-dynamic-ntrp.html
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I really appreciate all the great work you do. really
 
Gut4Tennis said:
Hi all.

On my team we have 17 players

2 usta rated 5.0's and 8 4.5's that used to be 5.0's. So 10 of our 17 players could be legit 5.0's

I'm curious if anyone knows of a stronger sounding team?

We finished the local league 12-0 32 court wins & 4 court losses

I'll be very shocked if we dont get to nationals and do well, but you never know.

Not trying to brag or anything( as we've really accomplished nothing yet), just curious of any other strong 40 and over 4.5+ teams. If so I wish you all the best this year.
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depends who you play at Nationals.
 
norcal said:
Wear them for your injury time outs in true D Rose fashion.

Also, to out-do the trashbag guy, carry your stuff around in a shopping cart.

In my younger days I was known to have crushed beer cans in my bag. I was on the forefront of the re-use, reduce, recycle trend.
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wore them for a practice yesterday, and they really made my ankle hurt. These dam boots run large.

Back to tennis shoes before I kill myself
 
getting closer to nationals. Our team has a practice Sat and sunday. The weather on the east coast is getting kinda cold which is not good training for the heat going on in palm springs. last weekend in Palm springs the heat was over 100 and they postponed matches for 2hrs in the heat of the day.

Nobody wants an injury right now so most of my play is mixed 9.5 , which is quite a high level mixed

I wish all the other teams and sections the best and a healthy injury free nationals
 
Gut4Tennis said:
getting closer to nationals. Our team has a practice Sat and sunday. The weather on the east coast is getting kinda cold which is not good training for the heat going on in palm springs. last weekend in Palm springs the heat was over 100 and they postponed matches for 2hrs in the heat of the day.

Nobody wants an injury right now so most of my play is mixed 9.5 , which is quite a high level mixed

I wish all the other teams and sections the best and a healthy injury free nationals
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If you end up playing a match or two at La Quinta, the afternoon matches are interesting. I can't remember what time it happens but I think around 3 PM, the sun goes behind the mountains. Before then, it is horrible serving on the north end if you are a right handed player. Keep it in mind if you get to pick a side with the toss.
 
atatu said:
I guess it goes without saying, but so much depends on whether everyone on the team shows up !
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Exactly. I just chatted with someone that played last weekend and I'd projected them as the #2 seed, a virtual tie for #1 though, in their flight but they lost to the #3 seed in their last match. But 13 of their 15 matches played had the results expected (one minor upset for and against them the only non expected). How could this be?

First, three of their stronger players didn't make the trip so they didn't have their top-8 there. Second, this team wanted to make sure everyone got 2 matches in so didn't play their strongest line-up every match. Then even with a given set of players, line-ups matter and had the team swapped two doubles courts they lost in their last match, they likely would have won one of them and won the match 3-2 and gone on to the semis.
 
mikeler said:
If you end up playing a match or two at La Quinta, the afternoon matches are interesting. I can't remember what time it happens but I think around 3 PM, the sun goes behind the mountains. Before then, it is horrible serving on the north end if you are a right handed player. Keep it in mind if you get to pick a side with the toss.
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is the sun low in the sky?

ill have my sun hat on
v-stiviano-mask-2.jpg
 
Late October it won't be quite as bad as DC but I just remember it well. I played a lefty and I had so many double faults before the sun went down. He didn't have it nearly as bad.
 
Thanks. the worst Ive ever seen was in La Jolla Cali at the hard court nats 40+ ... The sun is very low in the sky almost all day, making is hard to block it out with a hat. I was lucky enough to be put on a few side courts where they faced different directions vs the rest of the courts. My video you saw of that match was a side court. I think my large brim hats will come in handy
 
Gut4Tennis said:
Thanks. the worst Ive ever seen was in La Jolla Cali at the hard court nats 40+ ... The sun is very low in the sky almost all day, making is hard to block it out with a hat. I was lucky enough to be put on a few side courts where they faced different directions vs the rest of the courts. My video you saw of that match was a side court. I think my large brim hats will come in handy
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You can wear sunglasses too. I sweat more than others so I can't wear sunglasses when it is hot and humid in Florida. It's so dry there, I was able to go a set in 95 degree temps before I got too sweaty to wear them anymore.
 
Our team was just too deep. We literately destroyed all of the other teams in the 40+ 4.5 nationals.

5-0 4-1 4-1
semi 4-1
final 5-0

I'm sure there will be people making all sorts of excuses, but at the end of the day, we killed it

The Indian Wells location was amazing. Incredible courts with a beautiful blue/purple color

The mountain backdrop scenery was sweet to look at the whole trip.

All the teams were filled with very friendly nice people. The event was run very professional and most everything went smoothly.

The weather was so so chilly in the AM, then warm in the afternoon. The last day was overcast the whole day making it easy to play 2 the semi and final.

The overall experience was very positive. Lets face it, playing on a winning team that dominated the field sure makes it easy to enjoy every moment.

I hope you all had fun

Be well

12119051_10206816207671228_5603267035887788779_n.jpg


11220467_10206024605826470_8648528983683516764_n.jpg
 
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Gut4Tennis said:
Our team was just too deep. We literately destroyed all of the other teams in the 40+ 4.5 nationals.

5-0 4-1 4-1
semi 4-1
final 5-0

I'm sure there will be people making all sorts of excuses, but at the end of the day, we killed it
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Well done. A record like that with a 5-0 win in the final is pretty rare. Some here will say you had to have cheated/tanked/sandbagged to do it ...

But from what I can tell, you had no self-rated players, only one appeal down, and just four 4.5s this year that were 5.0s last year (and one was the appeal down), and none that were self-rated last year. So nothing screams any widespread shenanigans, although one of the bump downs does look very suspicious.

And in my preview, you guys were the #1 overall team so no surprise you won. And by my ratings, most of your matches went as expected. You had one upset win in your first match, one upset loss in the second, and all matches as expected in the third. The semi went as expected and you had just one upset win in the final. So you simply had the right players/line-ups to win.
 
Gut4Tennis said:
Our team was just too deep. We literately destroyed all of the other teams in the 40+ 4.5 nationals.

5-0 4-1 4-1
semi 4-1
final 5-0

I'm sure there will be people making all sorts of excuses, but at the end of the day, we killed it

The Indian Wells location was amazing. Incredible courts with a beautiful blue/purple color

The mountain backdrop scenery was sweet to look at the whole trip.

All the teams were filled with very friendly nice people. The event was run very professional and most everything went smoothly.

The weather was so so chilly in the AM, then warm in the afternoon. The last day was overcast the whole day making it easy to play 2 the semi and final.

The overall experience was very positive. Lets face it, playing on a winning team that dominated the field sure makes it easy to enjoy every moment.

I hope you all had fun

Be well

12119051_10206816207671228_5603267035887788779_n.jpg


11220467_10206024605826470_8648528983683516764_n.jpg
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Wow, impressive. Congrats. So, who gets to keep the trophy? :p

So now that you guys won, do you have to get bumped up to 5.0 and 5.5,... and if so, is there a league to play in? In NY/CT there doesn't seem to be many players playing usta at the 5.0+ level (ends up being like 3 teams playing each other 3-4x)
 
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schmke said:
Well done. A record like that with a 5-0 win in the final is pretty rare. Some here will say you had to have cheated/tanked/sandbagged to do it ...

But from what I can tell, you had no self-rated players, only one appeal down, and just four 4.5s this year that were 5.0s last year (and one was the appeal down), and none that were self-rated last year. So nothing screams any widespread shenanigans, although one of the bump downs does look very suspicious.

And in my preview, you guys were the #1 overall team so no surprise you won. And by my ratings, most of your matches went as expected. You had one upset win in your first match, one upset loss in the second, and all matches as expected in the third. The semi went as expected and you had just one upset win in the final. So you simply had the right players/line-ups to win.
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Yeah, similar to the 3.5 Nationals thread... seems like for any team to win you need to be deep with players close to the top of the NTRP level (4.5, with the requisite # of top 5.0's).
Regarding sandbagging... I feel like the higher up in ntrp that folks go, the less folks cry "sandbag", since at the end of the day we're all looking for the best competition we can find, right? On the flip side a buddy of mine that went to 5.0 nationals at 18's cited that the competition was so good, he questioned was it worth spending the money to go to nationals only to get beat by guys in/just out - of college (eg. play 6-7x a day, etc...)
 
schmke said:
Well done. A record like that with a 5-0 win in the final is pretty rare. Some here will say you had to have cheated/tanked/sandbagged to do it ...

But from what I can tell, you had no self-rated players, only one appeal down, and just four 4.5s this year that were 5.0s last year (and one was the appeal down), and none that were self-rated last year. So nothing screams any widespread shenanigans, although one of the bump downs does look very suspicious.

And in my preview, you guys were the #1 overall team so no surprise you won. And by my ratings, most of your matches went as expected. You had one upset win in your first match, one upset loss in the second, and all matches as expected in the third. The semi went as expected and you had just one upset win in the final. So you simply had the right players/line-ups to win.
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When we went to nationals in 2013, the Southern team (from TN) smoked everyone, too, including us 5-0 in the finals. I didn't see any indication of cheating or anything underhanded with that team at all. They were just good. Being good isn't cheating.
 
nytennisaddict said:
Yeah, similar to the 3.5 Nationals thread... seems like for any team to win you need to be deep with players close to the top of the NTRP level (4.5, with the requisite # of top 5.0's).
Regarding sandbagging... I feel like the higher up in ntrp that folks go, the less folks cry "sandbag", since at the end of the day we're all looking for the best competition we can find, right? On the flip side a buddy of mine that went to 5.0 nationals at 18's cited that the competition was so good, he questioned was it worth spending the money to go to nationals only to get beat by guys in/just out - of college (eg. play 6-7x a day, etc...)
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The higher up you go, sandbagging is definitely less of a problem. The issue is that the guys people get to be sandbaggers are the same people at every level - people who don't have a record that fits well into the self-rate guidelines. These people generally top out at the high 4.5 to low 5.0 level. There are very, very few players above that level who don't have a sectional or national junior record or college record or international record or something else that will prevent them from self-rating lower than their appropriate level. So these same people (who are actually high-4.5) can register at 3.5 or 4.0 or 4.5, depending on which captain talks to them first. A high 4.5 playing 3.5 is a huge problem. A high 4.5 playing 4.5 is not. To get ringers for other levels takes flat out Texas/Jason Freeman style cheating (i.e. throwing whole seasons of matches, etc) to get out-of-level players, not just run-of-the-mill sandbagging.

Sandbagging is also much less of a problem in 40+ as well. There are far, far fewer players available who are over 40 and high 4.5 level with no prior college or other experience who are not currently playing USTA leagues. The population of these sandbaggers is generally young kids in high school who are good but don't play USTA tournaments for whatever reason and only have a high school record. The USTA has tried to clean up the guidelines for younger players by refining the guidelines for college club tennis and sectional junior rankings, but this is still where the majority of people fall through the cracks.
 
schmke said:
Well done. A record like that with a 5-0 win in the final is pretty rare. Some here will say you had to have cheated/tanked/sandbagged to do it ...

But from what I can tell, you had no self-rated players, only one appeal down, and just four 4.5s this year that were 5.0s last year (and one was the appeal down), and none that were self-rated last year. So nothing screams any widespread shenanigans, although one of the bump downs does look very suspicious.

And in my preview, you guys were the #1 overall team so no surprise you won. And by my ratings, most of your matches went as expected. You had one upset win in your first match, one upset loss in the second, and all matches as expected in the third. The semi went as expected and you had just one upset win in the final. So you simply had the right players/line-ups to win.
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??
schmke you said the below statement, so how were we the top team coming in?

"But I just did a quick check of the average rating for 40 & over 4.5+ men's team rosters using the starting rating I had for players this year and your team was 36th with an average of 4.38.

However, your team's averaging rating has improved, up to 4.42, and you are now 17th. Who is ahead of you? The teams are from Florida (3), NorCal (3), Georgia (4), SoCal, North Carolina (3), Texas (1), Hawaii (1), and SoCal (1). You are the strongest team in your section, the next closest average being 4.37."
 
Gut4Tennis said:
??
schmke you said the below statement, so how were we the top team coming in?

"But I just did a quick check of the average rating for 40 & over 4.5+ men's team rosters using the starting rating I had for players this year and your team was 36th with an average of 4.38.

However, your team's averaging rating has improved, up to 4.42, and you are now 17th. Who is ahead of you? The teams are from Florida (3), NorCal (3), Georgia (4), SoCal, North Carolina (3), Texas (1), Hawaii (1), and SoCal (1). You are the strongest team in your section, the next closest average being 4.37."
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My guess is this. You had so many appeal down players, that those guys effectively got "reset" to some NTRP closer to mid-range which lowered your overall team score in the eyes of the computer.
 
We were able to sit one of our 5.0 players for a few matches after he was cramping the day before. Being deep with 12 players seemed to help. Everyone got to play 1 match. We had fresh players come in which makes a huge difference.

I can't imagine a venue better then the Indian Wells location
 
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