4th year in a row WTF won by player who hasn't won a slam

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
Let’s not act like Fed has no holes in his resume. 10-21 against Djokodal in slams, missing 2/3 modern clay swing masters, likely to hold no major record within the next year etc.

Undisputed Clay GOAT by miles + McEnroe’s career off of clay is more than enough to be the arguable goat.
No matter how you try to spin it, Nadal is terrible indoors. He has 2 titles total in his career indoors and I think one was indoor clay.

Being GOAT is about being great across ALL conditions, outdoor hard, indoor hard, clay and grass. Nole and Fed have racked up titles on everything and greater across all conditions (notice I'm using the term conditions as Nadal fanatics will go berserk about indoor not being a "surface" so it doesn't count).

Bottom line, Nadal will go down as Eternal Clay GOAT and Overall GOAT will come down to Fed and most likely Nole.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
No matter how you try to spin it, Nadal is terrible indoors. He has 2 titles total in his career indoors and I think one was indoor clay.

Being GOAT is about being great across ALL conditions, outdoor hard, indoor hard, clay and grass. Nole and Fed have racked up titles on everything and greater across all conditions (notice I'm using the term conditions as Nadal fanatics will go berserk about indoor not being a "surface" so it doesn't count).

Bottom line, Nadal will go down as Eternal Clay GOAT and Overall GOAT will come down to Fed and most likely Nole.
All conditions? Fed hasn’t won a masters on slow extra bounce Rome or Monte Carlo clay. So I guess he’s done too, according to you logic.

Congrats to Djokovic fans.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Post hoc erger propter hoc. The reality is that modern tennis is designed to allow top players to play less, regardless of age. Thiem and Zverev also played 60-odd matches last year, and they are plenty young enough to play big schedules.

This has given Nadal and Djokovic (and Federer) the flexibility to skip tournaments whilst maintaining their ranking - something not available to the top players of previous eras. Which is why the top players were so much younger, and retired so much earlier.

Djokovic and Nadal should be fresher than any #1 and #2 in history coming into the ATP finals. If they still underperform, it's not because the season's too long - it's because they're too old.
But Becker and Kuerten, especially, played less matches back then too and they were in their 20's. Becker himself played under 70 matches in '87, '88 and '91-'94 so the tour did allow them back then to play lighter schedules.

Maybe they should be fresher but this is not an ordinary year being that the tour stopped for 6 months. It would be harder for them to snap back into form than it would be for their younger competitors.
 

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
All conditions? Fed hasn’t won a masters on slow extra bounce Rome or Monte Carlo clay. So I guess he’s done too, according to you logic.

Congrats to Djokovic fans.
Still won tons of clay events. How many indoor events has Nadal won? Just told a moment ago, guess you're too stupid to remember.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
Still won tons of clay events. How many indoor events has Nadal won?
And Nadal still won tons of hard court events.

You mentioned all conditions. Fed can’t win in the slow hot outdoor Monte Carlo/Rome conditions just like Nadal can’t win in the low skidding indoor conditions.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
No one is saying it is (though it was regarded as a pseudo major in the late 70s and 1980s). But it Is the next most important tournament after the majors
I doubt that, I would rate the Italian, the Canadian, the Madrid, the German, Indian Wells, others above it.
Now, that would change if the year-end was transformed into a genuine championship event....right now it is simply a celebration of the tour, a year ending party.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
The amazing thing is that the last five winners are all first-time winners of this tournament and they have not won a Slam since winning the tournament - the winner list includes Murray, Dimitrov, Zverev, Tsitsipas and now Medvedev. It does mean that we can’t draw too many conclusions from indoor tennis tournaments when it comes to predicting the winners of the outdoor Slams.
 
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Sudacafan

Talk Tennis Guru
For a supposed GOAT level tournament (LOL! I'm obviously not serious), it keeps producing pretty basic winners in recent years. Fine players, but no one who looks in danger of going down as an all-time great. Dmitrov, Tsitsipas, Zverev and now Medvedev. Not one slam winner between them.

To be honest, I expected Thiem to win it to start justifying this tournament's stature again with some of it's biggest hype merchants. Thiem at least has a slam, and is the closest thing to a real challenger to the Big 3 in recent years. But a 4th consecutive year of a non-slam winner at this tournament almost makes it seem like a lottery (which a Round Robin tournament is in a way). Nowadays, whomever gets there and is in the best form for that period gets it, but in slams only the very best win in this era.
Nadal is feeling better now.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
losing four finals is better than not making them at all. hes won it more than anyone else and also has four extra finals. only haters would say that's a negative, this isn't boxing
Alright but post prime Fed having his last run at W against guys like washed up Berdych, Dimitrov and injured Cilic to lead the Wimbledon count by 1 doesn’t make him undisputed grass GOAT over Sampras.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Funnily enough the ATP is in the exact same position the WTA was 2 years ago where for 4 consecutive years the YEC/WTF was won by non slam champions.

2015: Radwanska
2016: Cibulkova
2017: Wozniacki
2018: Svitolina

Of those 4 winners, Radwanska and Cibulkova have retired and never won a slam, Wozniacki broke her slam hoodoo at the very next slam after the YEC and she is now also retired. Svitolina hasn't won a slam but last year in 2019 Barty won her first slam and then won the YEC.

Thiem was so close to doing what Barty did which would have really shown how much of a great year he had but it wasn't meant to be.

Let's hope next year the WTF hoodoo is halted like the WTA one was and a slam champ wins it.
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
Alright but post prime Fed having his last run at W against guys like washed up Berdych, Dimitrov and injured Cilic to lead the Wimbledon count by 1 doesn’t make him undisputed grass GOAT over Sampras.
Sampras also played on different grass so directly comparing them is iffy anyway imo. Cross-era comparisons suck
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
But Becker and Kuerten, especially, played less matches back then too and they were in their 20's. Becker himself played under 70 matches in '87, '88 and '91-'94 so the tour did allow them back then to play lighter schedules.
The tour allowed them to play lighter schedules - if they were prepared to sacrifice significant prizemoney and ranking points.

Modern top players do not need to make those choices. Ranking points and prize money is concentrated at a much smaller number of tournaments. Homogenised surfaces allow players to be competitive across all big events. Increased seeds means less risk of early upsets in the tournaments they choose to target.

This is why guys like Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Thiem, Zverev can play ridiculously limited schedules, safe in the knowledge that they will go deep in the tournaments they choose and therefore keep their rankings, earnings and seedings high.
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
For a supposed GOAT level tournament (LOL! I'm obviously not serious), it keeps producing pretty basic winners in recent years. Fine players, but no one who looks in danger of going down as an all-time great. Dmitrov, Tsitsipas, Zverev and now Medvedev. Not one slam winner between them.

To be honest, I expected Thiem to win it to start justifying this tournament's stature again with some of it's biggest hype merchants. Thiem at least has a slam, and is the closest thing to a real challenger to the Big 3 in recent years. But a 4th consecutive year of a non-slam winner at this tournament almost makes it seem like a lottery (which a Round Robin tournament is in a way). Nowadays, whomever gets there and is in the best form for that period gets it, but in slams only the very best win in this era.
So beating Djoker, Rafa and Thiem (ranked 1, 2, and 3) in the SAME tournament is basic? You need to get your head examined.
 
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DRII

G.O.A.T.
For a supposed GOAT level tournament (LOL! I'm obviously not serious), it keeps producing pretty basic winners in recent years. Fine players, but no one who looks in danger of going down as an all-time great. Dmitrov, Tsitsipas, Zverev and now Medvedev. Not one slam winner between them.

To be honest, I expected Thiem to win it to start justifying this tournament's stature again with some of it's biggest hype merchants. Thiem at least has a slam, and is the closest thing to a real challenger to the Big 3 in recent years. But a 4th consecutive year of a non-slam winner at this tournament almost makes it seem like a lottery (which a Round Robin tournament is in a way). Nowadays, whomever gets there and is in the best form for that period gets it, but in slams only the very best win in this era.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Still won tons of clay events. How many indoor events has Nadal won? Just told a moment ago, guess you're too stupid to remember.
He just won the French Open indoors when he bageled Djokovic in a set!

Accept it.
 

ForehandCross

Hall of Fame
I'd be a lot more impressed by that stat if this tournament didn't keep getting won by non-slam winners. The best players don't peak at the WTF, certainly not at the last several editions of it.

My bet is that Medvedev follows the last several winners, by not winning a slam following year.
What are you dense?

Each of the slam winners this year were defeated by Medvedev. Each of the slam winners were here.

And he did it in a span of 5 matches with another two top 8 players in the other two matches.


If you think this is not a good achievement then you must think tennis is a farce. Stop watching the sport mate.
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
What are you dense?

Each of the slam winners this year were defeated by Medvedev. Each of the slam winners were here.

And he did it in a span of 5 matches with another two top 8 players in the other two matches.


If you think this is not a good achievement then you must think tennis is a farce. Stop watching the sport mate.
?

He didn't say it was a garbage achievment, just that the top players don't peak for the WTF. That has been especially true in recent years.
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
?

He didn't say it was a garbage achievment, just that the top players don't peak for the WTF. That has been especially true in recent years.
Fed did in 2003, 2004, 2006, and bits of 2007, 2010, and 2011. Djoker did a couple of times too.

In recent years, it's not because they don't care but because of its placement at the end of the year benefitting younger players (which is why the oldest winner was Federer at age 30; in comparison, the oldest winners of each Slam were 37, 34, 36, and 35, respectively). It's the least forgiving event on the tour for older players. This year was a true anomaly due to the shortened season, but both Djoker and Nadal did ok there respective to their other results on the surface that year.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Fed did in 2003, 2004, 2006, and bits of 2007, 2010, and 2011. Djoker did a couple of times too.

In recent years, it's not because they don't care but because of its placement at the end of the year benefitting younger players (which is why the oldest winner was Federer at age 30; in comparison, the oldest winners of each Slam were 37, 34, 36, and 35, respectively). It's the least forgiving event on the tour for older players. This year was a true anomaly due to the shortened season, but both Djoker and Nadal did ok there respective to their other results on the surface that year.
So odd though that both of them choked away their semi-final matches from winning positions (Djokovic from 4-0 up in the deciding tie-break, Nadal failing to serve it out when he had the chance). I will always have the feeling that they should have played the final (without meaning any disrespect to Medvedev and Thiem who were worthy finalists).
 

ForehandCross

Hall of Fame
So odd though that both of them choked away their semi-final matches from winning positions (Djokovic from 4-0 up in the deciding tie-break, Nadal failing to serve it out when he had the chance). I will always have the feeling that they should have played the final (without meaning any disrespect to Medvedev and Thiem who were worthy finalists).
It's the reverse actually,Thiem should have wrapped it all in 2, Medvedev was the better player in the first set he lost to Nadal(Even in finals the Commentators kept talking about that when lost the first) .

It was them who were choking.
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
So odd though that both of them choked away their semi-final matches from winning positions (Djokovic from 4-0 up in the deciding tie-break, Nadal failing to serve it out when he had the chance). I will always have the feeling that they should have played the final (without meaning any disrespect to Medvedev and Thiem who were worthy finalists).
There was certainly some choking on their end, but there was a bit of choking on the other end as well. Thiem should have wrapped up the Djokovic match in straights while Medvedev I think had the DR throughout the entire match (or at least a very significant patch of the first set).
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
It's the reverse actually,Thiem should have wrapped it all in 2, Medvedev was the better player in the first set he lost to Nadal(Even in finals the Commentators kept talking about that when lost the first) .

It was them who were choking.
Fact remains that both Djokovic and Nadal were in a position to win those matches and yet didn't. Very uncharacteristic of them, especially Nadal.
 

Robert F

Professional
Compared to the Slams, this gives the newer guys their best chance of beating the big 3.

First, it is not best of 5 format. That gives the underdog a better chance of winning.
Second, it is indoors, virtually knocking out Nadal. Djoker and Fed obviously do well indoors, but a hot server indoors gets a better chance to beat them here then say RG or US Open.
Third, the big 3 are focusing on the Slams. They aren't giving up on YEC, but it clearly isn't their priority. Fed probably could have come back for this but is clearly keeping his sights on Majors.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
"Supposed GOAT". Oh brother.

You should really show some humility. Your man has been trying fruitlessly for almost 20 years now to win a tournament that Nole and Fed have won 11 times combined.

Nadal has been beaten down at the WTF by the Old Gen, hapless Next Gen and now the Next Gen. 3 generations of failure.

Your guy is the Clay GOAT, no more no less. Accept that and move along.

LOL.....he's skipped this round robin exhibition several times, even though he always qualifies for it. If that is considered "trying fruitlessly", he obviously never tried hard enough. He never prioritised it. It's just an end of year jolly that's now being won by randoms. The desperation to insert it into the GOAT debate because Nadal never found it important enough to always turn up is hilarious.

Oh, and Nadal is GOAT. And clay GOAT.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Typical disgruntled Nadal fans after another disappointed year for Nadal.

Same old same old every year. Unless Nadal finally wins this prestigious tournament, it will never ends their unhappiness!
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Let’s not act like Fed has no holes in his resume. 10-21 against Djokodal in slams, missing 2/3 modern clay swing masters, 4 F lost at his pet slam, likely to hold no major record within the next year etc.
No Olympics Singles Gold either, even though he's been desperate his whole career to win it....and they have actually done him the favor of rotating surfaces to make it easier for him. He even lost the thing on grass. Everyone has "holes" in their resume, and Fed has a ton of them at this point
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Typical disgruntled Nadal fans after another disappointed year for Nadal.

Same old same old every year. Unless Nadal finally wins this prestigious tournament, it will never ends their unhappiness!
Hey, I look forward to next year when Felix Auger Aliassime wins the round robin lotto tournament, how it's desperate fans will keep trying to prop it up as some sort of GOAT metric only the "greats" of the sport win.

The people winning this thing are making it irrelevant. I LOVE it.LOL!
 
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Tennis_Freak99

Hall of Fame
No Olympics Singles Gold either, even though he's been desperate his whole career to win it....and they have actually done him the favor of rotating surfaces to make it easier for him. He even lost the thing on grass. Everyone has "holes" in their resume, and Fed has a ton of them at this point
According to your theory, OG should be even worse than WTF. So many Mugs have won it. WTF atleast has a history of the sports greatest champs
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
According to your theory, OG should be even worse than WTF. So many Mugs have won it. WTF atleast has a history of the sports greatest champs
I've covered this already. It started off weak with winners like Rosset, but soon became prioritised by top player slam winners like Agassi, Kafelnikov, Murray and Nadal. Only one non-slam winner (Massau) won it between the run of those players.

If Olympic Singles Gold produced 4 non-slam winners consecutively after being around for over 25 years now, I'd have to write it off as a useless, unimportant tournament.
 

Tennis_Freak99

Hall of Fame
I've covered this already. It started off weak with winners like Rosset, but soon became prioritised by top players slam winners like Agassi, Kafelnikov, Murray and Nadal. Only one non-slam winner (Massau) won it between the run of those players.

If Olympic Singles Gold produced 4 non-slam winners consecutively after being around for over 25 years now, I'd have to write it off as a useless, unimportant tournament.
1) Wait for 16 years to do that

2) How do you know that no one of Medvedev, Zverev and Tsitsipas won't win a slam? They will for sure LOL. Stop being delusional
 

pico

Semi-Pro
I have this theory called the Nitto jinx. Its based on the fact that since 2016, the Nitto winners have had brutal follow up year. Murray was out injured and Dimitrov, Sascha n Tsits just couldnt perform the year after they won. I wonder if the jinx will extend to Medvedev?
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Hey, I look forward to next year when Felix Auger Aliassime wins the round robin lotto tournament, how it's desperate fans will keep trying to prop it up as some sort of GOAT metric only the "greats" of the sport win.
If this tournament is that easy to win, why Nadal can't win at least one? There's no excuse, all elite top 8 players qualify for the YEC, and Nadal isn't good enough despite having so many chances since he was 19.

Not every tournament winners are all ATG winner. FO winner Gomez isn't an ATG either. So if you're going to trash the WTF, you can trash the FO too.


The people winning this thing are making it irrelevant. I LOVE it.LOL!
Nonsense.

Making this salty thread just further proof that you're unhappy that Nadal hasn't won this prestigious event.
 

Cortana

Hall of Fame
What the hell are you taking about? Med won against #1 #2 and #3 to get the title, all of which won a GS tournament this year. This is massive!
 

timnz

Legend
I doubt that, I would rate the Italian, the Canadian, the Madrid, the German, Indian Wells, others above it.
Now, that would change if the year-end was transformed into a genuine championship event....right now it is simply a celebration of the tour, a year ending party.
Borg talked about it being a major around 1980
 

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
LOL.....he's skipped this round robin exhibition several times, even though he always qualifies for it. If that is considered "trying fruitlessly", he obviously never tried hard enough. He never prioritised it. It's just an end of year jolly that's now being won by randoms. The desperation to insert it into the GOAT debate because Nadal never found it important enough to always turn up is hilarious.

Oh, and Nadal is GOAT. And clay GOAT.
So delusional. He skips it because he has no chance. He has gotten beaten there by every gen possible...now he's losing to Next Gen.

If you want to talk desperation it was Nadal this year trying to finally win and failing again.

Cheers.
 
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