5.0 Male Player vs Date Krumm

the biggest problem for the rec player is that he has a job.

5.0 players are really good but normally they can't play more than like 3 times a week (unless a few weeks a year maybe but in winter often less) which means they get like 6 hours practice a week while a pro plays 6 hours a day. that of course shows in consistency.

I guess if a technically sound and young athletically gifted 5.0 would get to train 3 hours each day with good hitting partners for half a year he had a very good chance for beating kimiko but with a normal 5.0 training volume it will be almost impossible.
 
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PureAlph4

Semi-Pro
Let's drill down to the basics here: it's fair to say Krumm plays NOT TO LOSE; the average MALE 5.0 weekend warrior ALWAYS plays to win. I know who I'd back, and I'm pretty sure LeeD will back me up on this one.
 

HackersRUs

Rookie
Let's drill down to the basics here: it's fair to say Krumm plays NOT TO LOSE; the average MALE 5.0 weekend warrior ALWAYS plays to win. I know who I'd back, and I'm pretty sure LeeD will back me up on this one.
the basics are that no 5.0 male is going to win a set off Date-Krumm under any circumstances while she remains on the tour.

not going to happen.

I don't know if the people who somehow doubt this are sexist or stupid, or just know nothing at all about tennis.

but I am an open level male player that trains with elite 18s women every week (and barely manages to beat them!)

what would I know?

/idiots :shock:
 

martini1

Hall of Fame
Should merge this thread to the 4.0 male vs WTA player one. It's kind of like that. The pro will crush an average rec player who is not really training 8 hrs a day 6 days a week.
 

HackersRUs

Rookie
it isn't just the training, it's also about the talent..

look at Tony Larsen, he trains more and harder than pretty much anyone but, and I say this with the greatest respect and admiration for the redoubtable TonLars, he just doesn't have the talent..

could he take on Date Krumm? Yes, I reckon he could, he might even win, but he's hardly a 5.0, is he?
 
I'm 4.0 male, my serve barely gets to 90 mph, my backhand is a big liability, my volleys are unsound, my overhead is a disaster, I don't really understand tactics, but I'm sure if I played Kimiko she wouldn't be able to exploit any of that. If we played two sets, it would be 4 and 4 for me, no doubt based on my sheer maleness.
 

HackersRUs

Rookie
I'm 4.0 male, my serve barely gets to 90 mph, my backhand is a big liability, my volleys are unsound, my overhead is a disaster, I don't really understand tactics, but I'm sure if I played Kimiko she wouldn't be able to exploit any of that. If we played two sets, it would be 4 and 4 for me, no doubt based on my sheer maleness.
you sir, are made of win! :)
 

Baxter

Professional
I'm 4.0 male, my serve barely gets to 90 mph, my backhand is a big liability, my volleys are unsound, my overhead is a disaster, I don't really understand tactics, but I'm sure if I played Kimiko she wouldn't be able to exploit any of that. If we played two sets, it would be 4 and 4 for me, no doubt based on my sheer maleness.
Absolutely. I have all of your assets PLUS the wisdom the comes with advanced age. She wouldn't stand a chance.
 

PureAlph4

Semi-Pro
Look - it's as simple as this: tennis is a game of match-ups, and if one combatant (even someone who can bang, like KoKrumm) faces a technique or tactic that they can't handle, then they can be victimised.

Krumm is 5'4 and 115lbs; are you seriously saying a thrusting young 5.0 MALE leftie who can bounce the ball to over 6' like clockwork on their twist serve wouldn't be holding their serve with ease? How could darling little Krumm hope to neutralise that from 5'4? The set may go to a tie-break, but there's no doubt the serve would hand the strapping young buck the edge here.

To reiterate: tennis is a game of match-ups. Why do you think LeeD prospered at A, but skipped B (after dominating C) because he knew he couldn't overcome that darn perennial pushing pest BillSmall?
 

martini1

Hall of Fame
Look - it's as simple as this: tennis is a game of match-ups, and if one combatant (even someone who can bang, like KoKrumm) faces a technique or tactic that they can't handle, then they can be victimised.

Krumm is 5'4 and 115lbs; are you seriously saying a thrusting young 5.0 MALE leftie who can bounce the ball to over 6' like clockwork on their twist serve wouldn't be holding their serve with ease? How could darling little Krumm hope to neutralise that from 5'4? The set may go to a tie-break, but there's no doubt the serve would hand the strapping young buck the edge here.

To reiterate: tennis is a game of match-ups. Why do you think LeeD prospered at A, but skipped B (after dominating C) because he knew he couldn't overcome that darn perennial pushing pest BillSmall?
Zheng Jie beat Sharapova on several occasions, including an in form Masha. If you have seen Zheng played in person you will know your thrusting young 5.0 would finish, I should say be finished, early.

Now start a thread saying a rec 5.0 can beat Sharapova with ease... after playing 3 full sets with Zheng in a hot summer afternoon.
 
Look - it's as simple as this: tennis is a game of match-ups, and if one combatant (even someone who can bang, like KoKrumm) faces a technique or tactic that they can't handle, then they can be victimised.

Krumm is 5'4 and 115lbs; are you seriously saying a thrusting young 5.0 MALE leftie who can bounce the ball to over 6' like clockwork on their twist serve wouldn't be holding their serve with ease? How could darling little Krumm hope to neutralise that from 5'4? The set may go to a tie-break, but there's no doubt the serve would hand the strapping young buck the edge here.

To reiterate: tennis is a game of match-ups. Why do you think LeeD prospered at A, but skipped B (after dominating C) because he knew he couldn't overcome that darn perennial pushing pest BillSmall?
Successful. Troll is Successful :)
 

PureAlph4

Semi-Pro
Zheng Jie beat Sharapova on several occasions, including an in form Masha. If you have seen Zheng played in person you will know your thrusting young 5.0 would finish, I should say be finished, early.

Now start a thread saying a rec 5.0 can beat Sharapova with ease... after playing 3 full sets with Zheng in a hot summer afternoon.
Shame on you. Now you're just being facetious.

I NEVER suggested that the dashing young 5.0 could beat a top 10 WTA pro. We are talking about Date here, who stands at a pretty crummy 5'4, and who patently LACKS a bazooka arm. A hulking, debonair, juiced slugger who can CONSISTENTLY flick his twist to 6' is going to be able to exploit that. End of.

Again, I don't think ANY 5.0 could beat ANY WTA pro; we're talking about match-ups here, and you'd be a fool to discount that.
 
Shame on you. Now you're just being facetious.

I NEVER suggested that the dashing young 5.0 could beat a top 10 WTA pro. We are talking about Date here, who stands at a pretty crummy 5'4, and who patently LACKS a bazooka arm. A hulking, debonair, juiced slugger who can CONSISTENTLY flick his twist to 6' is going to be able to exploit that. End of.

Again, I don't think ANY 5.0 could beat ANY WTA pro; we're talking about match-ups here, and you'd be a fool to discount that.
You don't think Date would make adjustments to this 6' twist? Like, I don't know, stand further back, hit the ball on its way down from the 6' and just get the return in play and start the point which she will then proceed to dominate? Does this hulk with the twist have the ability to flatten the serve out once he notices she's far back and easily returning his high bouncers? What happens if he starts doubling? What about when he's not serving, how many times can he break her? Actually, kind of sounds like he's got the match-up problem.
 

PureAlph4

Semi-Pro
You don't think Date would make adjustments to this 6' twist? Like, I don't know, stand further back, hit the ball on its way down from the 6' and just get the return in play and start the point which she will then proceed to dominate? Does this hulk with the twist have the ability to flatten the serve out once he notices she's far back and easily returning his high bouncers? What happens if he starts doubling? What about when he's not serving, how many times can he break her? Actually, kind of sounds like he's got the match-up problem.
(A) The twist is a high percentage serve, so we can realistically assume no DFs. Couple that with the fact the guy probably works by day as an actuary or logistics professional, so he'll have seamlessly dealt with pressurising situations before.

(B) When Krumm moves back, that's when he either slices out wide with the shallow angle, or throws in a short dink serve over the net. Also never discount the varied MALE spins that will be coming her way.

(C) As I've stated before, the set will go to a TB, AT WHICH POINT the confident bruiser will have the advantage due to the serve.

I may not have provided a scientific argument, but I think it's pretty disrespectful to the rec game to posit that a resourceful MALE 5.0 couldn't hurt a down-on-their-luck WTA floater with the right match-up.

Anyway, the case I posted 30 pages ago (Renee Richards) remains quite persuasive, as of course is the '6.5 vs 4.0 video.' Care to undermine that evidence?

What relevance does Renee Richards' career have to this debate?

Having never played professional tennis as a male (but was a top junior, captained Yale's men's team, and was a finalist in the men's national 35+ championships), Richards had sex reassignment surgery at the age of 41, and became a WTA professional at the age of 43 and world ranked #20 at age 45.



Is this evidence that a falling 5.5 could become a top WTA pro?
 

martini1

Hall of Fame
Shame on you. Now you're just being facetious.

I NEVER suggested that the dashing young 5.0 could beat a top 10 WTA pro. We are talking about Date here, who stands at a pretty crummy 5'4, and who patently LACKS a bazooka arm. A hulking, debonair, juiced slugger who can CONSISTENTLY flick his twist to 6' is going to be able to exploit that. End of.

Again, I don't think ANY 5.0 could beat ANY WTA pro; we're talking about match-ups here, and you'd be a fool to discount that.
But you did suggest Date can be beaten by this so called "match up", when there is no real proof to it. You just imagined a taller male can just walked all over her. That's no match up. You are annoying to the point that you are just dissing her, and degrading her professionalism, and possibly her age, and physical appearance. Out of all the guys replied to this thread you are the only one who stepped out of line. Your on paper tennis analysis could not be more wrong. You are the one who should be shame of yourself for discriminating her height.
 

firepanda

Professional
Shame on you. Now you're just being facetious.

I NEVER suggested that the dashing young 5.0 could beat a top 10 WTA pro. We are talking about Date here, who stands at a pretty Krumm-y 5'4, and who patently LACKS a bazooka arm. A hulking, debonair, juiced slugger who can CONSISTENTLY flick his twist to 6' is going to be able to exploit that. End of.

Again, I don't think ANY 5.0 could beat ANY WTA pro; we're talking about match-ups here, and you'd be a fool to discount that.
Fixed. Or rather, improved.
 

willeric

Rookie
Did anyone watch that match? Exactly what shot would trouble a 5.0 player? The weak serve or the weak ground strokes?
That sounds a little negative. Let me rephrase, do you think the pace of the serve or the ground strokes would trouble a 5.0 player?

Her ability to redirect looks good but I'm not sure that would cause an issue against someone with good foot speed.
 

Devilito

Hall of Fame
Krumm is 5'4 and 115lbs; are you seriously saying a thrusting young 5.0 MALE leftie who can bounce the ball to over 6' like clockwork on their twist serve wouldn't be holding their serve with ease? How could darling little Krumm hope to neutralise that from 5'4? The set may go to a tie-break, but there's no doubt the serve would hand the strapping young buck the edge here.
 

arche3

Banned
That sounds a little negative. Let me rephrase, do you think the pace of the serve or the ground strokes would trouble a 5.0 player?

Her ability to redirect looks good but I'm not sure that would cause an issue against someone with good foot speed.
The 5.0 would commit an error before date in this match up of jock twist serve 5.0. She would redirect his pace just out of reach enough enough times to force an error. She has played sharipova venus etc..... she is not afraid of pace. So no matter how fast the guy is after enough balls he will be out of position and miss.
 
T

TCF

Guest
The 5.0 would commit an error before date in this match up of jock twist serve 5.0. She would redirect his pace just out of reach enough enough times to force an error. She has played sharipova venus etc..... she is not afraid of pace. So no matter how fast the guy is after enough balls he will be out of position and miss.
Exactly. She lost at the Open to a top 70 ranked WTA player who trains like a demon, not some 5.0 guy.

This thread is comical. There is not one true 5.0 guy who would beat any of the current top five 16s, top 10 18's or top 100 WTA players.
 

willeric

Rookie
The 5.0 would commit an error before date in this match up of jock twist serve 5.0. She would redirect his pace just out of reach enough enough times to force an error. She has played sharipova venus etc..... she is not afraid of pace. So no matter how fast the guy is after enough balls he will be out of position and miss.
So you are saying she is a pusher? Those pushers always win:cry:
 
Juding from the comments I hear at the local parks and tennis clubs. A 70 year old 2.5 man would beat any woman, no matter how good she is.

Therefore, a 5.0 man would destroy, absolutely tripple golden set her.

Do not continue this thread, it is insulting to men.
 

bhupaes

Professional
Juding from the comments I hear at the local parks and tennis clubs. A 70 year old 2.5 man would beat any woman, no matter how good she is.
You mean, a rising 70 year old 2.5 man will beat any woman. A falling 70 year old will fracture his hips. :)
 

bhupaes

Professional
^^^ I have hit with a 75 year old guy who can hold his own as a low to mid 3.5, and see him often when I get out to play. But he was an elite athlete when he was younger, and still has huge muscles with almost no fat. He tells me he used to be 5.0, but I have my doubts about that since his technique leaves a lot to be desired.
 

Tennisean

Rookie
Exactly. She lost at the Open to a top 70 ranked WTA player who trains like a demon, not some 5.0 guy.

This thread is comical. There is not one true 5.0 guy who would beat any of the current top five 16s, top 10 18's or top 100 WTA players.
An athletic, well-built, skillful, amateur man would have a shot against ANY woman player. That's just the nature of the beast. (males tend to be larger and faster than females)

Hell, as an unranked amateur and almost 50 years old, I believe with enough practice, I could have a chance, though it would help
that I've working out on a regular basis for over 3 decades and have
bigger muscles than Nadal.
 

Baxter

Professional
An athletic, well-built, skillful, amateur man would have a shot against ANY woman player. That's just the nature of the beast. (males tend to be larger and faster than females)

Hell, as an unranked amateur and almost 50 years old, I believe with enough practice, I could have a chance, though it would help
that I've working out on a regular basis for over 3 decades and have
bigger muscles than Nadal.
This is getting ridiculous.
 
T

TCF

Guest
An athletic, well-built, skillful, amateur man would have a shot against ANY woman player. That's just the nature of the beast. (males tend to be larger and faster than females)

Hell, as an unranked amateur and almost 50 years old, I believe with enough practice, I could have a chance, though it would help
that I've working out on a regular basis for over 3 decades and have
bigger muscles than Nadal.
I'm guessing this was meant as a joke....but if not, come down to SE FL. We will start with some top 18 year old female players and keep working down in age until you beat one of them. My guess is we will get to the top 12 year olds and you will still be losing. You will probably start winning vs the top 10-11 year olds....maybe.
 

Tennisean

Rookie
I'm guessing this was meant as a joke....but if not, come down to SE FL. We will start with some top 18 year old female players and keep working down in age until you beat one of them. My guess is we will get to the top 12 year olds and you will still be losing. You will probably start winning vs the top 10-11 year olds....maybe.
Well, I'm in SE FL, so there's no need to 'come down' there.

And, all you'd need to do is watch me hit some to realize you'd have to start with College level players, and move up from there, if they couldn't hang with me. (I'd be very surprised if they could out hit me)

Know any local College players that'd be willing to put me to the test?
(I'd welcome the challenge, & to find out one way or the other)
 

JoelDali

G.O.A.T.
I called on the council of 4.0 GOATs to have a round table discussion on this topic at the Open. Several top tier National computer ranked 3.5 GOATs were also invited.

We met at the street meat cart in Frushing and got a $3 meat stick that had Korean chef pubes attached thereon, we then headed back to Billie Jean and we tackled the topic of facing ATP/WTA pros in battle on the court and in the locker room.

Most of the assembly of 4.0 GOATs agreed that they could not handle the spin and trajectory of Murray's balls but could handle Rafa's thickness with relative ease. Bong Pan, a top tier rising 3.5 Chinese Davis Cup GOAT from Corona Park Queens was steadfast in his belief that if he was GOATing and serving well he could defeat and annihilate an aging Stosur or a rising Seppi. I too, believe in Bong when he is GOATing he is friggen unstoppable. His slice backhand is piercing and sometimes damn near unmanageable.

So, in conclusion the assembly set forth the fatwa that rec players if playing at the best of their ability can hang with, and, more often than not, defeat the weakest of the ATP/WTA tour player roster.
 
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An athletic, well-built, skillful, amateur man would have a shot against ANY woman player. That's just the nature of the beast. (males tend to be larger and faster than females)

Hell, as an unranked amateur and almost 50 years old, I believe with enough practice, I could have a chance, though it would help
that I've working out on a regular basis for over 3 decades and have
bigger muscles than Nadal.

Are you related to LeeD?
 
T

TCF

Guest
Well, I'm in SE FL, so there's no need to 'come down' there.

And, all you'd need to do is watch me hit some to realize you'd have to start with College level players, and move up from there, if they couldn't hang with me. (I'd be very surprised if they could out hit me)

Know any local College players that'd be willing to put me to the test?
(I'd welcome the challenge, & to find out one way or the other)
"College level players".....this is quite general as college level can be top D-1 down to players at a local community college. I do not believe I mentioned anything about college players. I am talking top juniors, like the juniors at the top of the ITF rankings, juniors playing junior slams.

But since you are in S. FL., I suggest you stop by South County Regional Park in Boca. There is a coach there Mr. Black, who has some of the top juniors around training with him.

I would think they would enjoy a different hitting partner. Let us know how you do.

By the way, you seem to think tennis is about 'big muscles' and 'out hitting people'....strange how tennis players are not all built like NFL linebackers then. I have seen top junior girls muffle and redirect some of the hardest pace their hired hitting partners can deliver, its not all about who hits harder.
 
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willeric

Rookie
Thanks to this forum, I now understand that I don't have any chance to win against a WTA player much less a 12 year old that has never played tennis. But what we can take away is how to beat a 5.0 level male player. I studied DK's matches at the US Open to pick up some key lessons.

1. Stop trying to serve with speed, spin and precision. There's no reason to try to have a big first serve and high kicking second serves with great placement. 5.0s can't handle 80 mph flat serves right to their forehand. For a temporary fix, I would suggest serving with your non-dominant hand.
2. Stop trying to hit ground stokes with great topspin and tough angles. 5.0s can't handle flat slow balls.
3. Stop trying to hit volleys like the Bryan brothers or Federer. It's better to use your racquet like the hammer of Thor with two hands
4. Don't try to be too fast. Speed is for sprinters not tennis players.
5. Make lots of unforced errors off of easy balls. I guess this gets 5.0 level players distracted.
6. Dunk easy volleys into the net. Also gets 5.0s off their A game.

There might have been some other key points, but I missed the first set. And if this helps anyone beat the tough 5.0 opponent, you can thank this forum.
 
T

TCF

Guest
Thanks to this forum, I now understand that I don't have any chance to win against a WTA player much less a 12 year old that has never played tennis. But what we can take away is how to beat a 5.0 level male player. I studied DK's matches at the US Open to pick up some key lessons.

1. Stop trying to serve with speed, spin and precision. There's no reason to try to have a big first serve and high kicking second serves with great placement. 5.0s can't handle 80 mph flat serves right to their forehand. For a temporary fix, I would suggest serving with your non-dominant hand.
2. Stop trying to hit ground stokes with great topspin and tough angles. 5.0s can't handle flat slow balls.
3. Stop trying to hit volleys like the Bryan brothers or Federer. It's better to use your racquet like the hammer of Thor with two hands
4. Don't try to be too fast. Speed is for sprinters not tennis players.
5. Make lots of unforced errors off of easy balls. I guess this gets 5.0 level players distracted.
6. Dunk easy volleys into the net. Also gets 5.0s off their A game.

There might have been some other key points, but I missed the first set. And if this helps anyone beat the tough 5.0 opponent, you can thank this forum.
So a match vs a top 70 player who has trained solely for tennis for 15 years, with the pressure of a US Open, towards the end of a long, long tennis season where all the players are ready for a break.....indicates the same mistakes and style she would play vs a 5.0 guy at a local park?
 
T

TCF

Guest
I think what some posters are missing is that the WTA player or top 18s junior is not going to give you the same ball you slam back and forth with your buddies. They are going to give you high deep topspin to the corners until you are exhausted. They will also redirect your serves deep to the corners. They can do that with ease, no matter how hard you hit. And they can do it all day long.

If you are thinking you will get those typical 5.0 ball bashing rally type of ball, or any ball that you can back hand slice, or any opportunity to come to the net, its just not going to happen enough to beat a top 100 WTA or top 10 ITF junior.
 
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