5.0 UTR10 pusher crushes good strokes

FiReFTW

Legend
Apart from the blatant cheating, who taught this junior how to hit a forehand and backhand? What rubish strokes, how annoying and painful it is to play such players, even for such good level juniors, he has to grind and exchange for such long points constantly.
 

dman72

Hall of Fame
3:54 you call that ball out you need an ass kicking. No one can actually see that ball as out. I get a ball on the outside of the line some people thinking they see space, but that's just straight up cheating. And the kid had to know he was being filmed, right? Bad.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I hated playing these cheater kids in juniors.

Fortunately, everyone has seemed to have mellowed out by adulthood.
I'm getting flashbacks restraining myself from the viewing area at tournaments. There was even one at national hardcourts my kid played in 16s. My son handled it brilliantly. I must say. He called the next ball out on a critical point that the kid hit smack in the middle of the court. And told him to call a line judge if he has issues. Haha. Love junior tennis. Not.

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MaxTennis

Rookie
I'm getting flashbacks restraining myself from the viewing area at tournaments. There was even one at national hardcourts my kid played in 16s. My son handled it brilliantly. I must say. He called the next ball out on a critical point that the kid hit smack in the middle of the court. And told him to call a line judge if he has issues. Haha. Love junior tennis. Not.

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Yeah, as much as I hate blatant hooking, this is a solution that often works if you get hooked on an obviously in ball.

It shows that you won't put up with this kind of bush league tactics.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I'm getting flashbacks restraining myself from the viewing area at tournaments. There was even one at national hardcourts my kid played in 16s. My son handled it brilliantly. I must say. He called the next ball out on a critical point that the kid hit smack in the middle of the court. And told him to call a line judge if he has issues. Haha. Love junior tennis. Not.

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Aside from the bad lines calls, his style of play is winning tennis at the rec level. You just need to have the ability to inject a bit of pace when needed and put away simple volleys and overheads.

As far as the line calling, it often goes the other way too. You get the hard hitter complaining about every line call when his ball is actually out.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
If the lefty had a better net game he could have ended the points a lot quicker and volley or hit overheads into areas well within the court. He also seemed to be afraid to hit overheads.
Exactly!!!

But since these are increasingly rare skills at the rec level, pushing tennis like this kid plays works most of the time. And even against all court players that come to net, if the guy pops up his volley at all, he’s often easy to pass.
 

Louis33

Rookie
I don’t see a problem with his style of play. It wouldn’t be great to have a hitting partner that played this way, but in a competitive match people do what it takes to win. His competitor seemed to be handling it well and could of ended the points early by moving up and attacking. I do see a problem with his sportsmanship trying to call balls out
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
If the lefty had a better net game he could have ended the points a lot quicker and volley or hit overheads into areas well within the court. He also seemed to be afraid to hit overheads.
Hey man that lefty is about 13 yo, I'd put money on him beating 95% of tt forums. Also covering the net and the lob for 13 yo is tough, you must have a ton of baby Rafa and Feds walking around your courts that smash overheads at 13. Cut the kid some slack that's a very advanced game imo for 13. He got cheated badly and couldn't play his game.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I do see a problem with his sportsmanship trying to call balls out
Do you think he saw them as in and called them out, or do you think his bad calls were done in good faith?

Personally, I think his calls were done in good faith. And when you see a guy playing this style, you have to expect this type of line calling. So you must adjust your targets accordingly. And when the bad calls come, it shouldn’t be a surprise.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
If the lefty had a better net game he could have ended the points a lot quicker and volley or hit overheads into areas well within the court. He also seemed to be afraid to hit overheads.
But he is young. If you saw Nadal’s early teen footage he was not a power player. By 17 he was. The lefty’s game has so much more upside once he physically matures.

I don’t have anything against the style but the righty is blatantly cheating too. Not even close on his calls.
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
all to do beat 13 kid is to keep slice
very easy to beat little boy slicing with score 6-1
You are one stupid dolt. Anyone can beat another player if you call any shots in the court out. Doesn't have to be slice (and this isn't even a good slice). New person and already you've topped Nostra as the stupidest poster, Congrats
 

Louis33

Rookie
Do you think he saw them as in and called them out, or do you think his bad calls were done in good faith?

Personally, I think his calls were done in good faith. And when you see a guy playing this style, you have to expect this type of line calling. So you must adjust your targets accordingly. And when the bad calls come, it shouldn’t be a surprise.
After watching again I’m not sure if his intentions are in good faith and should give him the benefit of the doubt without knowing him better
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
After watching again I’m not sure if his intentions are in good faith and should give him the benefit of the doubt without knowing him better
You watched this video and at one point were unsure of his intentions on those calls? Some of which are a foot inside the line and were called out. And you were at one point unsure? Really? I've got a bridge to sell you or you're trolling us pretty good.
 

Louis33

Rookie
You watched this video and at one point were unsure of his intentions on those calls? Some of which are a foot inside the line and were called out. And you were at one point unsure? Really? I've got a bridge to sell you or you're trolling us pretty good.
Perhaps you could have a talk with him about his sportsmanship and teach him a second serve?
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
Perhaps you could have a talk with him about his sportsmanship and teach him a second serve?
You can't fix that, kid has no coordination, no racket head speed. His strokes look like Charles Barkley's golf swing, it looks that bad. I can't even look at it without throwing up a little. There are some strokes you wish you never saw and if you have to look at it constantly you'd have some sort of PTSD. Imagine his coach having to look at this and keep saying "great shot" but thinking FML, but hey a paycheck is a paycheck.
 
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r2473

G.O.A.T.
You watched this video and at one point were unsure of his intentions on those calls? Some of which are a foot inside the line and were called out. And you were at one point unsure? Really? I've got a bridge to sell you or you're trolling us pretty good.
No, I wouldn’t think that he saw those balls as in and then called them out. I think he saw what he wanted to see on balls close to the line.

It’s hard to say though. Is this the sort of thing that happens in jr tennis? When adults make calls like this, I almost never assume they’re purposely cheating.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
You can't fix that, kid has no coordination, no racket head speed. His strokes look like Charles Barkley's golf swing, it looks that bad. I can't even look at it without throwing up a little. There are some strokes you wish you never saw and if you have to look at it constantly you'd have some sort of PTSD. Imagine his coach having to look at this and keep saying "great shot" but thinking FML, but hey a paycheck is a paycheck.
His strategy / shot selection is better than you give him credit for. His style of play will win tons of matches.

He’s able to keep the ball deep most of the time. Not much his opponent can do to hurt him back there. The odds are in the pushers favor in this one, even without the bad calls.
 

AlexSV

Rookie
Sportsmanship goes both ways. Sure, there might be some bad line calls but someone followed up by posting a video of a middle schooler titled cheater.
 

Louis33

Rookie
You can't fix that, kid has no coordination, no racket head speed. His strokes look like Charles Barkley's golf swing, it looks that bad. I can't even look at it without throwing up a little. There are some strokes you wish you never saw and if you have to look at it constantly you'd have some sort of PTSD. Imagine his coach having to look at this and keep saying "great shot" but thinking FML, but hey a paycheck is a paycheck.
Haha how would you feel if he beat you in a match?
 

Louis33

Rookie
Sure, Haha he can't make his own calls. Set it up. Record it. Post it. Whatever you want.
Haha I have no idea of your skill set but I would really like to see this. I will work as chair umpire for a modest fee, and will even sub in for the occasional overhead/swinging volley if your down a set
 

ontologist

New User
Yeah, as much as I hate blatant hooking, this is a solution that often works if you get hooked on an obviously in ball.

It shows that you won't put up with this kind of bush league tactics.
I understand the logic, but I don’t think sacrificing your morals for a tennis match is worth it at the end of the day. You can walk away even, or you can walk away with your dignity. Who’s to say we have the right to take an eye for an eye.
Effective or not, I’d rather call a line judge, lose the point, and let it go.
No offense though, I played juniors in SoCal too and know how frustrating it can be.
 

spun_out

Semi-Pro
the fact that you all think it's okay to pass judgment (or offer comments) on a junior match in such a manner shows how sad the world has gotten.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I understand the logic, but I don’t think sacrificing your morals for a tennis match is worth it at the end of the day. You can walk away even, or you can walk away with your dignity. Who’s to say we have the right to take an eye for an eye.
Effective or not, I’d rather call a line judge, lose the point, and let it go.
No offense though, I played juniors in SoCal too and know how frustrating it can be.
There is no morality in a tennis match. It's an athletic competition that is constrained within a set of rules. The rules are binding for both players. If one player in bad faith changes the rules it also changes the rules for his opponent. You might feel you have dignity by quitting or losing with honor but that's just the mindset of a loser. You can adjust by hitting safer margins. And if they keep cheating the only option is to hook back and confront them. It stops it everytime. And you are back to playing tennis and both players are better for it. My sons coach and myself told my kid at that point of blatant cheating you can show character and courage by doing what is necessary and turn the tennis match back to within the rules.

But the majority of the time most junior players are honestly trying to make good calls. You know when you are getting hooked. Its obvious. So it's a teachable situation for the kid to face. For both kids.

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ontologist

New User
There is no morality in a tennis match. It's an athletic competition that is constrained within a set of rules. The rules are binding for both players. If one player in bad faith changes the rules it also changes the rules for his opponent. You might feel you have dignity by quitting or losing with honor but that's just the mindset of a loser. You can adjust by hitting safer margins. And if they keep cheating the only option is to hook back and confront them. It stops it everytime. And you are back to playing tennis and both players are better for it. My sons coach and myself told my kid at that point of blatant cheating you can show character and courage by doing what is necessary and turn the tennis match back to within the rules.

But the majority of the time most junior players are honestly trying to make good calls. You know when you are getting hooked. Its obvious. So it's a teachable situation for the kid to face. For both kids.

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I respectfully disagree. There is no point when you get to turn your character off in life, sometimes you have to make difficult decisions, but I think those are the moments that really define a person. You absolutely have other options than to quit or lose, and I think you are doing a disservice by allowing your kid to cheat back. The rules haven’t changed, you’re always allowed to ask for an official.
Look I get how frustrating it can be to drive to a tournament and spend a ton of money only to get hooked. But, we learn a lot of very valuable lessons through athletics, and I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that there are better ways to handle cheaters, in tennis and in other life situations, than to cheat back... this isn’t tit for tat, and you don’t usually lose a match on a few calls. Having the courage to stand up and be the bigger person doesn’t make you or your kid a loser, it just means it’s that much easier to like the person they see in the mirror.
There is a bigger picture.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I respectfully disagree. There is no point when you get to turn your character off in life, sometimes you have to make difficult decisions, but I think those are the moments that really define a person. You absolutely have other options than to quit or lose, and I think you are doing a disservice by allowing your kid to cheat back. The rules haven’t changed, you’re always allowed to ask for an official.
Look I get how frustrating it can be to drive to a tournament and spend a ton of money only to get hooked. But, we learn a lot of very valuable lessons through athletics, and I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that there are better ways to handle cheaters, in tennis and in other life situations, than to cheat back... this isn’t tit for tat, and you don’t usually lose a match on a few calls. Having the courage to stand up and be the bigger person doesn’t make you or your kid a loser, it just means it’s that much easier to like the person they see in the mirror.
There is a bigger picture.
A tennis match is not that important. Certainly not important enough to place all kinds of moral and ethical demands on it.
Also, the fact that there is some sense of ethics or higher purpose on a line call is absurd. It's just a bad line call. Reality doesn't care about anyone. Or any implied values that are totally subjective anyways.

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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
I respectfully disagree. There is no point when you get to turn your character off in life, sometimes you have to make difficult decisions, but I think those are the moments that really define a person. You absolutely have other options than to quit or lose, and I think you are doing a disservice by allowing your kid to cheat back.
This X infinity.
The first kid hooks on a call by an inch or whatever it is. Did not care to replay the video.

The other kid cannot then be advised to call a shot in by 10 feet, out. That is bullsh#t.

Not exactly sure what I would do. I lean towards calling the ump straight away or letting it go.

Also keep in mind that not every bad call is intentional. Many are. Some not. Some want to win so bad they delude themselves thinking it is out. Or bad eyesight. Or whatever.

I only play recreationally but I still generally want to win just as much as a tournament match. What typically happens is that the hooks do not affect the outcome of the match. I win despite the hooks. Motivates me to play harder.
 
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There is no morality in a tennis match. It's an athletic competition that is constrained within a set of rules. The rules are binding for both players. If one player in bad faith changes the rules it also changes the rules for his opponent. You might feel you have dignity by quitting or losing with honor but that's just the mindset of a loser. You can adjust by hitting safer margins. And if they keep cheating the only option is to hook back and confront them. It stops it everytime. And you are back to playing tennis and both players are better for it. My sons coach and myself told my kid at that point of blatant cheating you can show character and courage by doing what is necessary and turn the tennis match back to within the rules.

But the majority of the time most junior players are honestly trying to make good calls. You know when you are getting hooked. Its obvious. So it's a teachable situation for the kid to face. For both kids.

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I agree the vast majority of players (young and old) are doing their best to make fair calls, which is not always easy.

As a junior I called for a line judge after three BLATANT bad calls. As an adult I really don’t care that much......[emoji849]




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Fairhit

Professional
I respectfully disagree. There is no point when you get to turn your character off in life, sometimes you have to make difficult decisions, but I think those are the moments that really define a person. You absolutely have other options than to quit or lose, and I think you are doing a disservice by allowing your kid to cheat back. The rules haven’t changed, you’re always allowed to ask for an official.
Look I get how frustrating it can be to drive to a tournament and spend a ton of money only to get hooked. But, we learn a lot of very valuable lessons through athletics, and I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that there are better ways to handle cheaters, in tennis and in other life situations, than to cheat back... this isn’t tit for tat, and you don’t usually lose a match on a few calls. Having the courage to stand up and be the bigger person doesn’t make you or your kid a loser, it just means it’s that much easier to like the person they see in the mirror.
There is a bigger picture.
I agree with you in everything but I think there's something missing here, it is a teachable moment for the junior who's being hooked, sometimes everyone has to stand for themselves, is not an issue of revenge, it is a situation where someone is taking advantage and the kid has to learn to stand his ground and not be pushed around.
 

sshin12

Rookie
I agree with you in everything but I think there's something missing here, it is a teachable moment for the junior who's being hooked, sometimes everyone has to stand for themselves, is not an issue of revenge, it is a situation where someone is taking advantage and the kid has to learn to stand his ground and not be pushed around.
I learned three things from these experiences. Let me caveat that there has to be 3 or more blatantly bad calls for me to bring this out.

1. Bring a cheater in with a short ball inside the service box and then rip the next one directly at them. Can’t call a ball out if they get pegged. (And please don’t whine at me about resorting to violence. I didn’t chase them with my racket and hit them with it. It’s a light, fuzzy tennis ball, not a baseball)

2. Cheating starts at home. I had a short exchange of words with the cheater’s dad after the match and realized why it was happening. The dad turned out to be a real piece of work. The son probably felt like they had to cheat bc the dad was a POS. “Win at all costs or dad will get mad” type of situation.

3. By high school, many of these types of players would end up dropping out bc their high rating would crumble during try outs and they get stuck in junior varsity.

Not saying that the person in the article below cheated during tennis, but 2+3 =


There are real lift consequences with cheating and we all know how unfair life can truly be.
 

ontologist

New User
A tennis match is not that important. Certainly not important enough to place all kinds of moral and ethical demands on it.
Also, the fact that there is some sense of ethics or higher purpose on a line call is absurd. It's just a bad line call. Reality doesn't care about anyone. Or any implied values that are totally subjective anyways.

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I’m not about to get into a whole argument on moral relativism as it relates to a tennis match lol. If a match isn’t that important, why not just let the call go. It’s not a big deal either way right? Just take the path of least resistance and keep playing. Cheating back seems to imply that there was some injustice done... hmm, seems like there was some moral value placed on the action of a bad line call.
 

ontologist

New User
I learned three things from these experiences. Let me caveat that there has to be 3 or more blatantly bad calls for me to bring this out.

1. Bring a cheater in with a short ball inside the service box and then rip the next one directly at them. Can’t call a ball out if they get pegged. (And please don’t whine at me about resorting to violence. I didn’t chase them with my racket and hit them with it. It’s a light, fuzzy tennis ball, not a baseball)

2. Cheating starts at home. I had a short exchange of words with the cheater’s dad after the match and realized why it was happening. The dad turned out to be a real piece of work. The son probably felt like they had to cheat bc the dad was a POS. “Win at all costs or dad will get mad” type of situation.

3. By high school, many of these types of players would end up dropping out bc their high rating would crumble during try outs and they get stuck in junior varsity.

Not saying that the person in the article below cheated during tennis, but 2+3 =


There are real lift consequences with cheating and we all know how unfair life can truly be.
Haha, I’ve definitely used the peg to get even. You can send a message with how you play for sure. Much easier in dubs though. I’ve never thought the whole drop shot peg strategy actually worked that well in singles.

I usually get the ump after 3 bad calls.
 

E46luver

Professional
Do you think he saw them as in and called them out, or do you think his bad calls were done in good faith?

Personally, I think his calls were done in good faith. And when you see a guy playing this style, you have to expect this type of line calling. So you must adjust your targets accordingly. And when the bad calls come, it shouldn’t be a surprise.
starting at 2:09, there is a line judge present. then the cheater calls the balls in, proving his eye site is correct. once judge leaves, cheater starts calling the balls out again. this proves cheating.
 
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rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I’m not about to get into a whole argument on moral relativism as it relates to a tennis match lol. If a match isn’t that important, why not just let the call go. It’s not a big deal either way right? Just take the path of least resistance and keep playing. Cheating back seems to imply that there was some injustice done... hmm, seems like there was some moral value placed on the action of a bad line call.
I'm trying to tell you its just a line call. You know you have been cheated. Its obvious after awhile. So stand up for yourself. You are the one bringing all this morality into it. Not me. You were the one lecturing. Not me. It's called trying to win a tennis match on even terms. Not Sunday school.

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