5.2 Millions watched the women's final

Nowhere did you mention that it was good that 5.2M people watched a tennis match.

By the way, the women's final happened on Sunday, not Saturday. The fact that a decent number of people tuned in when going up against Sunday football is pretty darn good. I hope that we get good numbers for the men's final.

Not mentionning something does not equal to stating the opposite of that thing!!!

I didn't state it because simply stating how it is a good thing that 5.2 millions peoples watched a tennis match has no relation with the original subject of the thread that is about comparing Male and Female tennis interest by using their respecting TV rating to take conclusions.

And being played on sunday instead of saturday is still an advantage to being played on monday in terms of TV coverage.
 
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Here is a clear enough statement in the following link http://www.francetvinfo.fr/au-proces-du-tennis-feminin-la-parole-est-a-la-defense_100725.html so that you can be well educated (you asked for it) :

"A l'audimat, les garçons font deux fois mieux que les filles. Lors de l'Open d'Australie, au milieu des années 2000, il a fallu baisser le prix des places pour le tournoi féminin, faute d'amateurs. "La BBC s'était plainte du trop grand nombre de sièges vides", se souvient un ancien directeur du tournoi dans le quotidien australien The Age (lien en anglais) en 2009."

If you don't understand French or if you don't feel to google traduct it, the paragraph above basically explains that men tennis TV rating scores 2 times higher than female tennis TV ratings.

FACT.

So where does it say anything about USO ratings?
 
Not mentionning something does not equal to stating the opposite of that thing!!!

And being played on sunday instead of saturday is still an advantage to being played on monday in terms of TV coverage.

Are you for real? how can having the entire west coast at home be an advantage to US TV ratings?
 
So where does it say anything about USO ratings?

It doesn't specifically speak about USO ratings, it speak about overall tennis ratings, it is obvious when reading the entire article, but when just reading the paragarph I quoted it can mislead peoples and making them think that it only talks about Australian open, why would we reduce tennis worldwide TV ratings to just only the US open?
 
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Yesterday's men's final started at 4:00 EST, when the majority of the USA is working. People on the west coast missed the entire match. Why didn't they play the match at 8:00 PM yesterday? A little thing called Monday Night Football, which just happend to be a doubleheader. The same thing happened last year.

That may be part of the reason but could it also be because europe (GB) could also watch it then (late evening of course but better than 02:00)?
 
Here is a clear enough statement in the following link http://www.francetvinfo.fr/au-proces-du-tennis-feminin-la-parole-est-a-la-defense_100725.html so that you can be well educated (you asked for it) :

"A l'audimat, les garçons font deux fois mieux que les filles. Lors de l'Open d'Australie, au milieu des années 2000, il a fallu baisser le prix des places pour le tournoi féminin, faute d'amateurs. "La BBC s'était plainte du trop grand nombre de sièges vides", se souvient un ancien directeur du tournoi dans le quotidien australien The Age (lien en anglais) en 2009."

If you don't understand French or if you don't feel to google traduct it, the paragraph above basically explains that men tennis TV rating scores 2 times higher than female tennis TV ratings.

FACT.

Now we have 2 countries. Still waiting on the other 194.
 
Now we have 2 countries. Still waiting on the other 194.

No you don't have to wait, the part of the quote about TV rating is talking about worldwide rating, the mention of the Australian open is only about the fact that they had to lower the price of the tickets because women tennis didn't bring enough peoples to the stadium.
 
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Now we have 2 countries. Still waiting on the other 194.

I'm being snarky. If you look at my other posts you will see that I'm generally pretty reasonable but I just get fed up with the "WTA sucks" crowd. I like women's tennis. It is different from men's tennis. I'm glad that there is a sport that women can make a decent living in if they want to become a professional athlete. Maybe golf, but not basketball, not soccer, not lacrosse, etc. The difference between the best women and those not as good is so vast which is not the case with the men. There is a lot of drama in the women's game which I think adds to my enjoyment. The utter dominance of Serena is a great story. That there have been 7 different slam winners in the past 8 slams and makes picking who's going to come out on top a crap shoot (though I think that Serena and Vika are going to stay on top). The complete flame out of the previous slam winners (Kvitova, Li, Stosur) always gives you something to talk about.

That is where I'm coming from. I bid you good night.
 
I believe the UK ratings for the Wimbledon final this year were crazy high (probably around the 10 million mark). The reason, first British player in the final in nearly 80 years.

You can't look at one match, played at one tournament and say see Women's tennis is just as popular. You need to look at overall viewership of both tours, i.e. what's the average rating of a woman's 500 tournament compared to a men's 500 tournament? Or what's the average rating of the women's matches at the US Open (all rounds), compared to the men's?
 
I'm being snarky. If you look at my other posts you will see that I'm generally pretty reasonable but I just get fed up with the "WTA sucks" crowd. I like women's tennis. It is different from men's tennis. I'm glad that there is a sport that women can make a decent living in if they want to become a professional athlete.

I also like woman tennis when played at its highest level, despite its inferior quality compared to male tennis, so to make it clear, I watch women tennis (usually only the big matches) and I'm(was) a big fan of Steffi Graf and Navratilova, I also watch of course more men tennis but I'll never say to peoples "hey women tennis is so ****y that peoples shouldn't be allowed to watch it, and the girls shouldn't make money...", but I just like to make the facts straights so when I see deceptive posts giving conclusions based on using unfair comparisons like the original post of this thread, then I feel the need to give my 2 cents.

By the way I'm not far to think that on a financial point of view both female AND male tennis benefit one from the other, in a way that if it is safe to think that females make more money than they should by benefiting from the whole men/women tennis package at slams and masters, I also think that male tennis would make less money if women tennis wouldn't exist because it makes the slams feel like bigger events with both sexes concerned so it genrates more overall revenues, perhaps I'm wrong but I do think that a slam event with a male + a female competition at the same time generates more than twice the revenues it would potentially generate if it would be a male only event, and since it is better for both sexes to each share 50% of slam revenues that are overall more than twice superior than it should be if a slam event would be a male or female only event, then having a male and a female pro tennis is a win-win situation.
 
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The TV rating comparison doesn't indicate anything about the gap between the ATP and the WTA.

1. Women final was played on Sunday(Prime Time!), but the men final play on Monday when everyone is at work or school. LOL
End of the discussion basically.

I played some doubles last night and I was the only person who knew Williams and Azarenka were the final pairing when it came up.... and it had been all over the news since the day before. Everyone knew the men's final pairing and that it had gone to five sets.
 
Those high numbers are the viewers in all-or-part meaning those above 2 years old who watched at least a few minutes. For example the Djokovic/federer match in 2007 was 16,6 million in all-or-part and above 5 million in number of viewers.

Actually the ratings for CBS were low

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2012/09/u-s-open-low-numbers-for-yet-another-monday-mens-final/
Airing in the afternoon on a workday for the fifth consecutive year, it should not be a shock that overnight ratings were unimpressive for the men’s final of the U.S. Open.

The Andy Murray/Novak Djokovic U.S. Open men’s final drew a 2.3 overnight rating on CBS Monday afternoon, down 12% from last year (2.6), but up a tick from 2010* (2.2).

The 2.3 overnight is the second-lowest ever for the men’s final of the U.S. Open, ahead of only 2010.

Clearly, the Monday afternoon timeslot did not help matters. Several CBS affiliates opted not carry the match until after switching to national programming at 8 PM ET. According to Sports Business Daily, the overnight rating peaked at a 4.2 from 9-9:15 PM ET.

Overall, the last five editions of the U.S. Open men’s final rank as the lowest rated ever in metered markets. It is no coincidence that all five matches aired on Monday afternoons.

The spate of Monday finals and the absence of American stars has slowly but surely eroded the drawing power of the men’s final.

The last time the men’s final was played in the traditional Sunday afternoon window, 2007, the match between Djokovic and Roger Federer earned a 4.2 overnight.
The last time an American played in the final, 2006, the match between Federer and Andy Roddick drew a 5.1.
The last time an American with more than one major victory played in the final, 2005, the match between Federer and Andre Agassi earned a 6.2.
Finally, the last time two Americans met in the final, 2002, the match between Agassi and Pete Sampras earned a now-unattainable 7.9.
Overnight Ratings For Men’s Final of the U.S. Open
Past decade
* The 2010 final, between Djokovic and Rafael Nadal, started on CBS but concluded on ESPN2.

Same for the women
http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/201...al-down-from-last-year-but-better-than-usual/
 
http://espn.go.com/tennis/usopen12/story/_/id/8367924/more-16-million-watch-andy-murray-us-open-win

Murray/Djoko 16 millions viewers, compared to 11 million for last year's men's final and 10 million for the year before. So Murray = ratings.

Women's final got almost 18 million viewers.

Which means the sexist fantasy of some "gap" in interest based on gender does not exist. Several references to ratings from more than one major have been posted, which also kills the wholly false notion of nationalism having anything to do with higher ratings.
 
Which means the sexist fantasy of some "gap" in interest based on gender does not exist. Several references to ratings from more than one major have been posted, which also kills the wholly false notion of nationalism having anything to do with higher ratings.

This year's US open final TV rating posted above actually tend to prove exactly the opposite of what you say here, the final with the american player has higher TV rating than the final without american player, so it is impossible do deduct by this years TV rating that nationalism doesn't have anything to do with the ratings.!!!

And when you say that several references to ratings have been posted, none of them have shown that female tennis draws equal or more interest than male tennis when nationalism is out of the equation, if you want to prove that your point has a chance to be right, then you just have to show us one US TV rating the last 20 years where the women final played without american player has a higher score in the USA than the male final the same year and also played without american, or show us just one US TV rating where the woman final has a higher score than the male final the same year when there is an american player in both finals., that way you are sure to take nationalism out of the equation, but i'm afraid that absolutely no reference about it have been posted here, or link them if I'm wrong, good luck...

The only times where US TV ratings are higher for a woman final is when there is an amercian player in the woman final and no amercian player in the men final, like this year, so it proves that nationnalism has a huge impact on TV ratings.
 
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Which means the sexist fantasy of some "gap" in interest based on gender does not exist. Several references to ratings from more than one major have been posted, which also kills the wholly false notion of nationalism having anything to do with higher ratings.

One was shown on a Sunday when the majority of the USA is not working and one is shown on Monday when the majority of the country is. Can you seriously not understand this? The last 5 mens US Open finals have been on a Monday afternoon. Even if Sampras and Agassi would be playing on a Monday afternoon, the ratings would be much lower than on a Sunday afternoon. People are not going to take off work to watch tennis, mens or womens. Why do you think the men play after the women at the grand slams? You always put the larger draw at the end. If you don't you end up with the situation like they had in Cincy where when Federer and Fish finished their match there were 500 left in the stands that stayed to watch the women's quarterfinal. My daughter even said how bad she felt for the women that nobody wanted to watch them.

Do you think the ratings for a Monday afternoon baseball game have the same ratings as a Saturday or Sunday evening game?
 
Kme5150, I think we can argue as much as we can, it won't help much, we are in front a situation like if we were showing a picture of a red wall and we would always find some peoples to claim "The picture proves that this wall is green!"

I'm done with it.
 
I don't know why but to me it seems like many posters are annoyed that the women's final drew more viewers than the men's finals.
 
I don't know why but to me it seems like many posters are annoyed that the women's final drew more viewers than the men's finals.

The women played on a Sunday when most of the viewership doesn't have to work. The men played on a Monday, starting before the majority of workers in the eastern time zone have left work, and in the middle of the workday for west coast viewers. How is it surprising that the women might have outdrawn the men?
 
The women played on a Sunday when most of the viewership doesn't have to work. The men played on a Monday, starting before the majority of workers in the eastern time zone have left work, and in the middle of the workday for west coast viewers. How is it surprising that the women might have outdrawn the men?

it is not surprising at all, but like i said before most posters here don't want to acknowledge that women's tennis is not that far behind men's tennis when it comes to popularity(18 million viewers for women vs. 16 for men), at least in the U.S as the rating is showing. The men's finals got into prime time by the way, the match ended around 9-930ish pm.
 
it is not surprising at all, but like i said before most posters here don't want to acknowledge that women's tennis is not that far behind men's tennis when it comes to popularity(18 million viewers for women vs. 16 for men).


When you base your evaluation of men Vs women tennis popularity on the TV ratings of the 2 finals from the 2013 US open while they are not broadcasted with the same conditions, it's like comparing apples and oranges, in an unfair way, like tasting a rotten apple then tasting a fresh orange and saying "my tasting session proves that oranges are better than apples..."

How is it hard to understand that it is at best inadequate and at worst simply unfair to take conclusions by comparing the TV ratings of 2 events that are not brodcasted with the same conditions (Saturday match with an american player Vs monday match without any american player)?

The rating posted only say 2 comparative things :

1/ A match played on saturday have a wider audience potential than a match played on monday.
2/ A match played by a countryman will attract more peoples in front of their television than a match of the same round played without any countryman.
 
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When you base your evaluation of men Vs women tennis popularity on the TV ratings of the 2 finals from the 2013 US open while they are not broadcasted with the same conditions, it's like comparing apples and oranges, in an unfair way, like tasting a rotten apple then tasting a fresh orange and saying "my tasting session proves that oranges are better than apples..."

How is it hard to understand that it is at best inadequate and at worst simply unfair to take conclusions by comparing the TV ratings of 2 events that are not brodcasted with the same conditions (Saturday match with an american player Vs monday match without any american player)?

The rating posted only say 2 comparative things :

1/ A match played on saturday have a wider audience potential than a match played on monday.
2/ A match played by a countryman will attract more peoples in front of their television than a match of the same round played without any countryman.


Ok, all I am trying to say is that women's tennis is not as unpopular as many people believe but you can believe whatever makes you happy. 18 million is a higher number than 16 million, I mean you will never see that kind of rating for a WNBA game vs. an NBA. Tennis is only known because of the Federers, Nadals, Williams, Sharapovas, Clijsters, Murrays, Djokivics etc. You take away these players and both tours will suffer tremendously when it comes to popularity.
 
I don't know why but to me it seems like many posters are annoyed that the women's final drew more viewers than the men's finals.

What's the point of having a thread if you don't want any discussion/input from other members? You said the comparing the rating between the men's final and the women's final is relevant. Everyone disagree and have analyzed and debunked the poor comparison. You(and thundervolley) shouldn't get so defensive.
 
What's the point of having a thread if you don't want any discussion/input from other members? You said the comparing the rating between the men's final and the women's final is relevant. Everyone disagree and have analyzed and debunked the poor comparison. You(and thundervolley) shouldn't get so defensive.

im not getting defensive, it was an observation.
 
I don't know why but to me it seems like many posters are annoyed that the women's final drew more viewers than the men's finals.

im not getting defensive, it was an observation.

And once again, an inadequate observation, you failed to understand that instead of being annoyed by the fact that the women final attracted more peoples in front of their TV than the male final, the posters are actually just annoyed by how you take some figures totally out of contexte to come to a conclusion accordingly deceptive in the post you wrote to create this thread.
 
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I think it would have drawn higher then the Men's even if they played the same day..

Say what you want, but no one has the star power then Fed and Nadal and do.. Tennis is going to suffer HUGE when they are gone.. Even though I can't stand the swiss, no denying how popular he and Nadal are
 
I think it would have drawn higher then the Men's even if they played the same day..

Say what you want, but no one has the star power then Fed and Nadal and do.. Tennis is going to suffer HUGE when they are gone.. Even though I can't stand the swiss, no denying how popular he and Nadal are

Same day but still with a countryman in one final and no countryman in the other final, then the TV rating comparison would still be unfair.

Imagine the TV ratings with Roddick or Isner instead of Djokovic in the men final and Radwanska or kvitova instead instead of Venus Williams in the women final, would you maintain that the female final would rate higher than the male final in the USA? Of course not, the nationality of the players have a that big impact on the TV ratings.
 
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This year's US open final TV rating posted above actually tend to prove exactly the opposite of what you say here, the final with the american player has higher TV rating than the final without american player, so it is impossible do deduct by this years TV rating that nationalism doesn't have anything to do with the ratings.!!!

The Wimbledon men's final rating in the U.S.--with NO Americans, scored slightly higher than the high-rated women's final with one American. Graf was not American, had majors finals against non-Americans, which were were highly rated in US broadcasts.

Moreover, the American Roddick's USO final (with hype increasing as he moved through the draw) only earned a 3.5 share, while a final with no Americans, such as Rafter vs. Rudeski (1997 USO) had a 4.0 share. Nationalism plays no factor whatsoever.

Your theory is debunked .
 
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The Wimbledon men's final rating in the U.S.--with NO Americans, scored slightly higher than the high-rated women's final with one American. Graf was not American, had majors finals against non-Americans, which were were highly rated in US broadcasts.

Moreover, the American Roddick's USO final only earned a 3.5 share, while a final with no Americans (Rafter vs. Rudeski, '97 USO) had a 4.0 share. Nationalism plays no factor whatsoever.

Your theory is debunked .

You debunked nothing at all, because the fact that an event without countryman rates higher than an event with a countryman doesn't prove that the presence of the counrtyman in the lower rated event had no favorable impact on its audience, the fact that nationalism boost the audience doesn't mean that it will always boost it to a point where an event with a countryman has to automatically obtain a higher TV ratings than the event without countryman, because there are of course other variables than nationalism that impact the ratings.

And by using the figures of the wimpledon final you provided, I can return it against you in the Female Vs male tennis popularity debate, by safely concluding that male tennis is so much more popular than female tennis that the nationalism impact on the TV rating is sometimes (or often?) not enough to ensure bigger ratings for a Female event with a countryman Vs a male event without countryman.

And as far as your comparison between the share of the Rafter/Ruzedski final and the share of the Roddick final it also fails, because you compare 2 event with 6 years of distance, which means that they are not compared under the same conditions, so there are several viriables that impacts the results like tennis popularity at that time, popularity of the players present in the finals, what TV programs were competing against the tennis finals at that times, and many other variables that it would take too much time to list them all, as I said before, if nationalism has decidedly an impact on the TV ratings, it is not the only factor.

And when you talk about Grafs finals ratings in the USA, it doesn't contradict anything from what I said, because :

A/ I didn't say that a female final can't obtain a high rating if there is no countryman playing it, instead I said that it can't obtain a higher rating than the male final if there is no countryman in the female final, which is absolutey not the same thing.

B/ I note that you cared to only write that Graf's finals had high ratings, instead of saying that Graf's finals had higher rating than male finals, and I bet that if Graf's finals scored higher TV ratings than the male finals the same years you would have wrote it that way, so once again the Graf argument fails to contradict anything from what I said, it would even tend to confirm it.

And honestly, I don't understand how you can maintain that nationalism has no impact on the TV ratings for tennis, when it is obvious that everywhere in the world, so USA included, there are tons of peoples that watch a some sport events on TV ONLY if there is a countryman present in the final stage. I do that for some other sports than tennis that i don't care much, and many of my friends also, so please don't make a fool of you by trying to maintain that absolutely no american would follow a sport in the same way as the one I described. A US open final is not only followed by tennis addicts who would watch it anyway whatever the nationality of the finalsts should be, that kind of event is also watched by some peoples who usually don't care much about tennis but find an interest to watch it sometimes when a countryman plays the match.


So when you write :

Nationalism plays no factor whatsoever.

It is truely one of the most ridiculous statement that I must have readed on this board, it's just take some common sense for anybody to understand why.
 
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Nationalism in sport tends to be much more of a European thing.

Not nearly as significant here in the U.S.
 
I wonder what the NBC numbers would have been for the Olympics if they showed all the other countries athletes winning medals in Prime time instead of the Americans....
 
The Wimbledon men's final rating in the U.S.--with NO Americans, scored slightly higher than the high-rated women's final with one American. Graf was not American, had majors finals against non-Americans, which were were highly rated in US broadcasts.

Moreover, the American Roddick's USO final (with hype increasing as he moved through the draw) only earned a 3.5 share, while a final with no Americans, such as Rafter vs. Rudeski (1997 USO) had a 4.0 share. Nationalism plays no factor whatsoever.

Your theory is debunked .

You are basing your theories on a time when tennis was much more popular in the US and that was largely due to Americans. So, a bit of work to do still. :)
 
Nationalism in sport tends to be much more of a European thing.

Not nearly as significant here in the U.S.

It's funny because in europe we say exactly the opposite, I guess that peoples always believe the grass is greener at home than at the neighbor, so let's assume that european or american are both humans with the same defects...

Isn't there a few exemples of sport where the americans use or used to call the player or the team who whon the US championship as the "world chamion" it used to be the fact for baseball, Football, basketball. Isn't it a strange way to see things for a country that according to you is supposed to not be prone to nationalism in sport?
 
I wonder what the NBC numbers would have been for the Olympics if they showed all the other countries athletes winning medals in Prime time instead of the Americans....

The Olympics are different. By definition its an international competition, so of course national pride takes precedent including with Americans...

However, in general sporting events shown in America, there is no where near the nationalism you see in Europe. Just because there is an American competing doesn't automatically mean more support. We've seen this many times in tennis matches.
 
The Olympics are different. By definition its an international competition, so of course national pride takes precedent including with Americans...

However, in general sporting events shown in America, there is no where near the nationalism you see in Europe. Just because there is an American competing doesn't automatically mean more support. We've seen this many times in tennis matches.

So you mean that in the USA, the mecanism that make peoples watch the Davis cup matches of the american team doesn't apply at all when it comes for the amercian players in the slam individual competitions? Seriously doubtable.
 
It's funny because in europe we say exactly the opposite, I guess that peoples always believe the grass is greener at home than at the neighbor, so let's assume that european or american are both humans with the same defects...

Isn't there a few exemples of sport where the americans use or used to call the player or the team who whon the US championship as the "world chamion" it used to be the fact for baseball, Football, basketball. Isn't it a strange way to see things for a country that according to you is supposed to not be prone to nationalism in sport?

There's a difference from provincialism, or supposed provincialism in the eyes of Europeans when it comes to Americans, and nationalism!

Yes, human kind tends to have the same defects across regions, but certain characteristics are magnified in certain populations. Nationalism certainly is in Europe! The briefest accounts of history tells the story, and your sporting events are many times a reflection of this...

In America its often times more about meritocracy or rooting for the underdog that drives fans’ support. We’ve seen this over and over at the USO.
 
So you mean that in the USA, the mecanism that make peoples watch the Davis cup matches of the american team doesn't apply at all when it comes for the amercian players in the slam individual competitions? Seriously doubtable.

I guess you've missed the plethora of USO matches that prove as much...
 
France alone is already way more nationalistic about sports than the US is. And if you talk about Europeans that means even more countries to add to the 'COME ON's' and 'VAMOS's' etc.
 
Lendl himself stated that when he was chzech peoples not only rooted against him in the USA but they also used to show a lot of pure hostilty against him, but almost immediatly after that he became american he encountered far less hosility from the US crowd when playing in the USA than when he was officially Czech altough he admitted at the same time that if the hotility against him almost disapeared, he still usually stayed the guy the public rooted against when he played against native americans.
 
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There's a difference from provincialism, or supposed provincialism in the eyes of Europeans when it comes to Americans, and nationalism!

Yes, human kind tends to have the same defects across regions, but certain characteristics are magnified in certain populations. Nationalism certainly is in Europe! The briefest accounts of history tells the story, and your sporting events are many times a reflection of this...

In America its often times more about meritocracy or rooting for the underdog that drives fans’ support. We’ve seen this over and over at the USO.

The perfect exemple of what I said before : peoples always believe the grass is greener at home than at the neighbor.

If Amercians believe that nationalism is more an european problem (and I admit that there are several sad exemple in history to support that theory), I can assure you that if you ask a question about nationalism to peoples in Europe, most of them will say that they feel like USA is one of the most nationalist country in the world (and there are also good reasons to think like it, let's take for exemples Hollywood films where it is always about nice americans saving the planet and liberty by spanking asses of naughty communists, naughty muslim terrorists, naughty south american drug dealers, naughty alien invaders, and so...) so who is right, who is wrong? It would be an endless unnecessary debate, since most peoples everywhere in the world so USA and Europe include lack the needed objectivity to judge about themselves ; once again "peoples always believe the grass is greener at home than at the neighbor".
 
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I guess you've missed the plethora of USO matches that prove as much...

Do they exist? Many exemples of matches where the american crowd supported the foreigner instead of the homeboy in a US open match? I guess there are only a few exemples, I wouldn't be surprised that Federer could receive more support if he played Roddick in the US open, like it also arrived in the French open that the crowd rooted for the foreigner during matches played by french players like leconte or Pioline, but it is usually due to the fact that some players tend to attract so much hate against them that it overcomes the nationalism advantage, and it is the exception, not the rule, and as I already said before, if nationalism is a factor that can make peoples root for a certain player, it is not the only one factor that is taken in account, and that applys not only in the USA but also all over the world.
 
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The perfect exemple of what I said before : peoples always believe the grass is greener at home than at the neighbor.

If Amercians believe that nationalism is more an european problem (and I admit that there are several sad exemple in history to support that theory), I can assure you that if you ask a question about nationalism to peoples in Europe, most of them will say that they feel like USA one of the most nationalist country in the world, so who is right, who is wrong? It would be an endless unnecessary debate, since most peoples everywhere in the world so USA and Europe include lack the needed objectivity to judge about themselves ; once again "peoples always believe the grass is greener at home than at the neighbor".

Actually the phrase you're referring to is: the grass is always greener on the other side, which means people tend to believe that others have it better.

However, I get what you're trying to say, I just disagree...

As a matter of fact there is plenty I admire about Europe and think you all get it right and we don't: such as the U.S.'s horrendous gun violence vs Europe, and our ridiculous incarceration rate...

But nationalism... Naw, you all have it way worse. Actually I think its good America is not so nationalistic most of the time. It's not good for a super power with no substantial military foe to be nationalistic. Just imagine if China had no main rival on the international stage :shock:; then many around the world would more greatly appreciate how the U.S., although far from perfect, behaves internationally!
 
Actually the phrase you're referring to is: the grass is always greener on the other side, which means people tend to believe that others have it better.

If I would have used the correct phrase of reference it would have meant the opposite to what I tried to explain, but thank you for the correction, TW board is my only source to practice my english and it is sometimes difficult for me to put the right forms.
 
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Just imagine if China had no main rival on the international stage :shock:;

I guess we would all have to think about always saving some money to be able at any time to pay the eventual bullets that would be used to kill the members of our families sentenced to death for having claimed for some more freedom of expression!!!
 
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