5.5” for 2hbh just ain’t right for a tennis player

[A_Instead]

The conclusion that I have came to is in pickleball the margins are much smaller as play level increases..
In pickleball one can quickly excell to a higher level...
But once you get there...it's like a tiny little error the is point over...with tennis...a tiny mistake can be overcome..

 

[ByeByePoly]

The conclusion that I have came to is in pickleball the margins are much smaller as play level increases..
In pickleball one can quickly excell to a higher level...
But once you get there...it's like a tiny little error the is point over...with tennis...a tiny mistake can be overcome..

consistently “low enough over the net“ is everything … don’t feed the smash

 

[A_Instead]

In pickleball one knows if you hit a bad shot.... point over..
At least in tennis.. there is still a chance..

 

[ByeByePoly]

In pickleball one knows if you hit a bad shot.... point over..
At least in tennis.. there is still a chance..

Truer words have never been spoken. What’s very frustrating to me is I hit a consistent low ball over the net in tennis, and now way too many wiffles go too high. Should be much simpler with paddle, wiffle and smaller court. We will see in a couple of months if I fix it. I will hit a couple of good looking low drives in a row … then a flier.

Question for you … I think you had said you have hit the Prince Response Pro paddle I am using:

This is what comes up all the time. During play the situation comes up where I am not not at kitchen and forehand cross court winner near sideline is open if I could dip the wiffle enough. This has nothing to do with winning more … I just really want to hit that shot like we do with sharp fh cc pass in tennis. Would a carbon face create enough additional spin compared to my Prince fiberglass surface to dip that cc fh enough? My guess is no … because there are pretty good players (some from tennis) in our open play … and I haven’t seen any cc fh winners because of spin. Actually… several of the better players never hit any topspin.

 

[A_Instead]

Hitting winners isn't really a winning strategy in Pickleball.. in doubles that is..

 

[ByeByePoly]

I posted this in pball confession thread … thought I would at it here:

lol … watching the Vegas pickleball pro/tennis pro doubles now on tv. In just the first game … Donald Young and Sam Querrey making the same weak ros and volley mistakes I have been making. This is making me feel much better. They take a swing just like I do expecting strings to be there to grip the ball. Instead they get nothing but slick hard paddle surface. OMG they have dumbed down the paddle and ball specs to ever approach skilled strokes from baseline … even tennis pros can’t do it. Hopefully bringing in tennis pros to hype the game brings an early death to the pickleball paddle ping pong paddle sandpaper era.

Rally scoring.

 

[SlowTiger]

Resisting urge to make jokes based off title

 

[A_Instead]

Is bazaar to have tennis professionals competing with pickleball professionals..on a pickleball court...

Perhaps next weekend we will see the same.. but playing tennis..

 

[Dartagnan64]

Actually… several of the better players never hit any topspin.

Trying to hit topspin is a way to lose at pickle ball. The lack of friction on the paddle and the way a whiffle ball moves through the air leads to diminishing returns. I'd love to hit hard spinning dippers into the kitchen but the equipment is just too lacking.

I find using racketball and squash strokes actually work better for me in PB.

The conclusion that I have came to is in pickleball the margins are much smaller as play level increases..

Yes the fact that you have to use touch rather than spin to keep the ball low and in the court makes the game a low margin game. You can't float anything. Lots of points end in a smash or a failed dink into the net as a result.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Trying to hit topspin is a way to lose at pickle ball. The lack of friction on the paddle and the way a whiffle ball moves through the air leads to diminishing returns. I'd love to hit hard spinning dippers into the kitchen but the equipment is just too lacking.

I find using racketball and squash strokes actually work better for me in PB.



Yes the fact that you have to use touch rather than spin to keep the ball low and in the court makes the game a low margin game. You can't float anything. Lots of points end in a smash or a failed dink into the net as a result.

”Trying to hit topspin is a way to lose at pickle ball.”

I would say it slightly differently. I would say trying to win because of topspin is a losing strategy (it ain’t Nadal heavy ts baseline tennis). But I think it is incorrect to say that means topspin isn’t a tool you can use to help you win. Most pros hit topspin.

The biggest advantage I see watching pro doubles (and better rec players) with the carbon paddles is at the kitchen on volley drives. Ben Johnson (#1) can hit a volley drive a little lower below net line that will still stay in the baseline because of the small additional spin (compared to tennis). Like you correctly observed … game of very low/tight margins … most of it determined at kitchen. This makes any advantage of being able to hit the drive volley (speed up) from even a little lower priceless. Yes … some additional margin from baseline to baseline, but no real effective dipping over the net, or even a good offensive topspin lob. Some topspin lobs stay in that wouldn’t have … but it’s not big offense like tennis.

”You can't float anything.”

That is for the most part the game. You can float serves and returns all day long … but once any decent level of two rec players are at the kitchen … keep it low or die.

I want a tee shirt that says “Don’t feed the smash”.

We are hitting Prince Response Pro fiberglass paddles … I really like them. I’m sure one day soon I will swap paddles with someone at open play that has a carbon face, and I will post if I see major topspin difference. The JOOLA carbon paddles are very popular where I play. I’m actually enjoying a game that is more flat and touch oriented … but that is from a tennis player that wasn’t dependent on topspin. Right now this pball topspin is more of a curiosity thing … not a quest. I would be more interested if it felt better hitting the ball with carbon regardless of topspin.

I lost 6lbs in three weeks of open play doubles … 169 -> 163. My goal was just 162 … so anything more just a bonus.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

-point construction is what i focusing more and more on PB!
-brute force and/or hard drives are too easy to block back
-setup shots with a lob and/or a sharp topspin into the kitchen
-im not much of a dinker! so i have to find other ways to press the action
-unlike tennis, "big looping takebacks" are a waste of energy/time
-short quick strikes work soo much better!

 

[A_Instead]

Agree to above..in doubles.
I work the two outer corners of kitchen to pull people off the court.. just have to watch for the ATP...as you work the corners and pull people off wide...it forces them to hit a higher ball which can be attacked by my partner..it puts a lot of pressure on the other player..
Another approach when the opponents are back off the kitchen..the best place to hit is constant deep drives down the middle..
Key in pickleball is to take 1 opponent out of the exchanges..and focus on playing against 1 of the players.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Agree to above..in doubles.
I work the two outer corners of kitchen to pull people off the court.. just have to watch for the ATP...as you work the corners and pull people off wide...it forces them to hit a higher ball which can be attacked by my partner..it puts a lot of pressure on the other player..
Another approach when the opponents are back off the kitchen..the best place to hit is constant deep drives down the middle..
Key in pickleball is to take 1 opponent out of the exchanges..and focus on playing against 1 of the players.

This is one of the problems I hav with the game. It happens in tennis doubles too, but I found it was ridiculously easy in PB to play keep away from stronger players. That makes unequal pairings so much less fun. You either have to really become a ball hog or just deal with never seeing a ball.

[

 

[ByeByePoly]

This is one of the problems I hav with the game. It happens in tennis doubles too, but I found it was ridiculously easy in PB to play keep away from stronger players. That makes unequal pairings so much less fun. You either have to really become a ball hog or just deal with never seeing a ball.

[

Yep … this has happened when I played with wife in open play. But it works in my favor when I go by myself and hook up with a stronger player. I need the incoming fire at the kitchen to improve … and actually that is working for my wife on those mixed days also.

It’s one of those both fun and frustrating things at the same time. I spent 40 years of tennis basically playing with the same level of opponent/teammates … tournaments, USTA, club leagues/permanent court time. I didn’t even know all the 4.0s by name at our last club because we played with different groups. Rarely on the court was more than .5 level difference. Pickleball open play is wild wild west every time we go … varies a lot from one day to the next, even on same day. I actually really enjoy it (usually) … and am smart enough to lose rather than steal balls from the wife. But the thought has occurred to me … a once a week booked time with guys at same level might be in my future. I was smart starting out in tennis singles always seeking out players a little stronger/better than me … achieve that level and than seek out stronger … rinse and repeat.

 

[ByeByePoly]

-point construction is what i focusing more and more on PB!
-brute force and/or hard drives are too easy to block back
-setup shots with a lob and/or a sharp topspin into the kitchen
-im not much of a dinker! so i have to find other ways to press the action
-unlike tennis, "big looping takebacks" are a waste of energy/time
-short quick strikes work soo much better!

From day one … I assume from tennis … I had good shot tolerance at the kitchen with half volley off the bounce moving wiffle around. The downside that came with that is I much prefer it to a reach forward taking it out of the air. I have no problem dinking it back as a volley dink … it’s a habit/preference problem. I can get caught stepping back to hit half volley when it’s really too deep and a simple dink volley back was called for.

The better players in our open play are all similar … not trying to win anything from baseline, get to kitchen quick and are as patient as they need to be before going into smash mode. It’s open play and most of the time they don’t have to be that patient … the high ball will show itself soon. I am as good as any/most of them already at the half volley dance. They are clearly better than me at the kitchen smash which pi$$es this ex-s&v tennis player off. IMO … I will have to match their kitchen offense (smash,anticipation,etc) to beat them regularly … which I intend to do. In the meantime … I am often the one on the court with best strokes and touch because of tennis. Areas like low kitchen touch/tolerance, 3rd shot drop (I would rather hit a stroke), and sending a surprise low lob over opponent when all of us are at the kitchen. I have been thinking about the last one (low lob) … think it might be useful. I have a pretty lethal tennis drop shot and low trajectory 1hbh flat lob over net guy tight to net with my 1hbh. So say I’m playing mr I am better at kitchen smashing than you … you know how this ends. Well … I am probably better at surprise low lobs and drops than you … how about some roadwork for you instead of your smash? I wouldn’t do this to a senior player … but we have many younger with great wheels.

I will let you know how that works out. Probably won’t play again until after Christmas… giving tight calves a week off before I force an injury.

Edit: regarding your point about shorter strokes … I intend to try and add wrist/paddle snap in kitchen drives. The good players (pros) make up for reaching forward at kitchen without stroke with wrist/paddle flip at contact. It’s the only was to put some speed on wiffle with arm starting so far forward.

 

[ByeByePoly]

How is open play rotation handled where you play … across multiple courts?

 

[A_Instead]

I actually go after the stronger player as it puts more pressure on them...one simple slip up..the next ball goes in the direction of the weeker player who can't really defend..
If you can get the other player to worry about their partner.. you pretty much won..

That's my fear when playing pickleball... having a ball smashed at my partner..

 

[1HBHfanatic]

How is open play rotation handled where you play … across multiple courts?

-in 3x groups ive been going to, its basically "first in line, first on court"
-4x paddles are placed/gathered together, waiting for the next available court to open
-some of the better players like to play with their own groups of 4x, so they bundle their 4xpaddles and wait for a court space to open up on their turn
-which kinda sucks if you are not in their "click"!!

 

[A_Instead]

I barely see open doubles in tennis.. where team and games are ad hoc like in pickleball.
Most doubles in tennis is planned by the people playing..
It pickleball...it's mostly ad hoc and you play with and against who ever..aka the social aspect...
There are groups that stick together which I can understand why.
But playing the same people time and time again gets boring after awhile as the dynamic of the game is much less then tennis..

 

[ByeByePoly]

-point construction is what i focusing more and more on PB!
-brute force and/or hard drives are too easy to block back
-setup shots with a lob and/or a sharp topspin into the kitchen
-im not much of a dinker! so i have to find other ways to press the action
-unlike tennis, "big looping takebacks" are a waste of energy/time
-short quick strikes work soo much better!

I meant to comment on the bolded above. What I see often is guys who have become good from baseline with slap flat forehands with a lot of pace. Most aren’t tennis players who think dtl very often … but the pace is good enough to often go between opponents down the middle. And on those … doesn’t matter if higher over the net … just has to not go long. Pace can also cause errors hitting right at opponent at kitchen … but less so with the better rec players. So from my observation in our rec play …pace does work for some. But if going at opponent … risk reward switches to 3rd shot drop or any low drive (spin or not) that bounces around opponents kitchen line. This would be an example where spin would alter that low short drive/hit over the net. If flat … has to be off pace or wiffle just carried into opponent smashing zone. If spin … can hit it a little harder and still land around opponent kitchen line. I think both of those short 3rd shot drives have about the same neutralizing effect … just pick which one you make less errors with. We are planning on going when courts are empty and drill 3rd shot drops because neither one of us really think 3rd shot drop … we are tennis players hitting the dang ball … I mean wiffle.

 

[ByeByePoly]

-
-brute force and/or hard drives are too easy to block back
-

Jack Sock wasn’t listening

 

[1HBHfanatic]

Jack Sock wasn’t listening

-it works sometimes, like anything else
-but since the space is more crammed, a simple block volley will hurt the hitter more than the volleyer!!

-imo, short quick strikes is more effective, IMO

 

[ByeByePoly]

The Bubly PPA tournament with tennis pros this last weekend was played at Mandalay Bay on temporary rolled out court surface called Pickleroll. Think Pickleball flashmob … players and court leave after event.

PickleRoll | Roll-Out Pickleball Courts

pickleroll.com

I would be interested in reviews ... supposedly there is a little give with surface/mat which might be good on joints.

 

[djNEiGht]

take it anywhere!

 

[ByeByePoly]

take it anywhere!

Probably not in your car trunk.

 

[djNEiGht]

lol

yeah...not as portable as it seems. prob more for a location that is a multiuse facility.

 

[Dartagnan64]

e are planning on going when courts are empty and drill 3rd shot drops because neither one of us really think 3rd shot drop … we are tennis players hitting the dang ball

I've utilized the 3rd shot drop in tennis far more than I've done it in PB. Good serve -> weak return -> drop shot winner. I play tennis with a lot of 50+. Drop shots are a considerable weapon.

 

[treo]

The Bubly PPA tournament with tennis pros this last weekend was played at Mandalay Bay on temporary rolled out court surface called Pickleroll. Think Pickleball flashmob … players and court leave after event.

PickleRoll | Roll-Out Pickleball Courts

pickleroll.com

I would be interested in reviews ... supposedly there is a little give with surface/mat which might be good on joints.

I played at an indoor pickleball center that had pickleroll installed with the 4 foot squares like this video except they laid it on bare slick concrete with double sided tape. The tiles were sliding and since the floor wasn't perfectly flat, there were dead spots. It is made like a denser asphalt roof shingle and the surface is like a brand new outdoor tennis court. At the local PPA tournament they used the roll out version. If they had to use a wood underlay it doesn't make for a quick install.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I played at an indoor pickleball center that had pickleroll installed with the 4 foot squares like this video except they laid it on bare slick concrete with double sided tape. The tiles were sliding and since the floor wasn't perfectly flat, there were dead spots. It is made like a denser asphalt roof shingle and the surface is like a brand new outdoor tennis court. At the local PPA tournament they used the roll out version. If they had to use a wood underlay it doesn't make for a quick install.

One of the female pros (Jones) at the Bubly said the roll was glued down and plays better that way. The court they played on was going home with Jones, and I noticed she was on their website homepage … guess they are now a sponsor of hers.

Did you feel any give at all?

fyi … did see pros give some occasional looks at the court … like they got a bad bounce (I mean worse than the usual wiffle non-bounce … hehehe).

 

[treo]

The courts I played on were a half assed installation with the tiles becoming tripping hazards to the point where we would pull it off and toss it to the side. I think they have glued them down since and will try again when they have their official grand opening next month.

 

[treo]

Update on the brand new indoor Atlanta Pickleball Center that opened in November with Pickleroll. I played on it the second day of opening and my impression was it was like a freshly resurfaced outdoor court that was maybe too grippy. Yesterday I played there for the second time and it was much smoother and felt like it had loose sand on the surface. It was as if the court aged 10 years in three months. I wonder how it will be in a year. I prefer a smoother surface since it has less wear and tear on your shoes and body but I wouldn't spend my money on Pickleroll.

 

[Bud]

Played PB for first time last night, using a brand new XSPAK. Found the 5.5" long grip fine for my 2HBH.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Played PB for first time last night, using a brand new XSPAK. Found the 5.5" long grip fine for my 2HBH.

It’s an excellent paddle … soft, control, spin … I only changed recently to Vatic V7 for more power from baseline.

Ironic timing for your post … I was just thinking about updating this with additional 2hbh paddle thoughts. Since I created this thread … I have seen Chris Olson (Pickleball Studio) also mention the amount of taper at the throat matters a lot for 2hbh, along with grip size.

This is what I was going to mention.

Short version: grab your paddle with your 2hbh grip … I bet the end of the butt cap is in your palm ... and I also bet you don’t do this on your tennis racquet. Both of the paddle 2hbhs in this house do this … and wasn’t a conscious thought. There isn’t enough room on any pickleball paddle to grip it like we do a tennis racquet … but we find a way.

- so just had wife with small hands hold a tennis racquet with 2hbh grip. Bottom hand goes to even with butt cap (like we all do), butt cap not in the palm like some players do on serve.
- top hand against bottom hand … no gap
- full grip length to tape at throat 7 1/2” … her thumb and index finger about 1/4” short of that … so her tennis 2hbh grip with small hands is 7 1/4”

Now consider your xspak grip … the claim is 5 1/2” grip

Here is mine



Simple math … her standard tennis 2hbh grip can’t fit. Also … her hand isn’t big enough to grip the paddle at the throat up there at 7 1/4”.

Something has to give/accommodate.

One possible adjustment can be seen in pic in my post #1 in this thread … index finger behind paddle face. I have tried it and didn’t hate it … would with a tennis racquet but works fine with a paddle. Who knew?

So what other grip space constraint accommodations … wife actually has been doing one I would not recommend… or even thought of. She was putting part of top hand on bottom hand … and actually hitting a good 2hbh.

Not her fault … this has been her weapon … Vatic Flash 16mm has been ordered to skip the hand overlap.



Yeah … right … they called that a 5 1/2” grip. Also … check out the more rounded throat … even if you were fine with gripping the throat … prince is rounded/semi-throatless.

When I hit 2hbh with xspak … I cheated with butt cap in palm just enough where I could grip around bottom of throat without putting index finger behind paddle face. The grip on the Vatic V7 Pro is slightly shorter, and the throat less tapered … to be determined where I settle out on 2hbh grip.

 

[Bud]

It’s an excellent paddle … soft, control, spin … I only changed recently to Vatic V7 for more power from baseline.

Ironic timing for your post … I was just thinking about updating this with additional 2hbh paddle thoughts. Since I created this thread … I have seen Chris Olson (Pickleball Studio) also mention the amount of taper at the throat matters a lot for 2hbh, along with grip size.

This is what I was going to mention.

Short version: grab your paddle with your 2hbh grip … I bet the end of the butt cap is in your palm ... and I also bet you don’t do this on your tennis racquet. Both of the paddle 2hbhs in this house do this … and wasn’t a conscious thought. There isn’t enough room on any pickleball paddle to grip it like we do a tennis racquet … but we find a way.

- so just had wife with small hands hold a tennis racquet with 2hbh grip. Bottom hand goes to even with butt cap (like we all do), butt cap not in the palm like some players do on serve.
- top hand against bottom hand … no gap
- full grip length to tape at throat 7 1/2” … her thumb and index finger about 1/4” short of that … so her tennis 2hbh grip with small hands is 7 1/4”

Now consider your xspak grip … the claim is 5 1/2” grip

Here is mine



Simple math … her standard tennis 2hbh grip can’t fit. Also … her hand isn’t big enough to grip the paddle at the throat up there at 7 1/4”.

Something has to give/accommodate.

One possible adjustment can be seen in pic in my post #1 in this thread … index finger behind paddle face. I have tried it and didn’t hate it … would with a tennis racquet but works fine with a paddle. Who knew?

So what other grip space constraint accommodations … wife actually has been doing one I would not recommend… or even thought of. She was putting part of top hand on bottom hand … and actually hitting a good 2hbh.

Not her fault … this has been her weapon … Vatic Flash 16mm has been ordered to skip the hand overlap.



Yeah … right … they called that a 5 1/2” grip. Also … check out the more rounded throat … even if you were fine with gripping the throat … prince is rounded/semi-throatless.

When I hit 2hbh with xspak … I cheated with butt cap in palm just enough where I could grip around bottom of throat without putting index finger behind paddle face. The grip on the Vatic V7 Pro is slightly shorter, and the throat less tapered … to be determined where I settle out on 2hbh grip.

I'll have a friend snap a photo as I hold mine in a BH grip. Will post over the weekend.

Not sure how far down the throat my dominant hand is but it felt completely natural when I hit the first time.

Just like a tennis racquet, my FH is SW, BH is SW/Continental.

Also, found it very easy to hit a left-handed FH when pulled very wide to my BH side. Much easier than a tennis racquet.

 

[Azure]

We just measured our 2hbh grip on the tennis racquet. Wife just short of 7” … I am right at 7”. So … that means 2hbh off hand will be up in the throat area on a Pickleball paddle. I of course already knew this … because I am in charge of the house tennis racquet tournagrip xl wrapping.

Went and checked this … yep … that is one crowded grip.



So if you are looking for a paddle for a 2hbh … you need to think grip length AND throat shape.

Here is an example … Prince paddle below has a 5.5” grip and almost no narrow throat. Head paddle has 5” grip with a graduated narrow throat. Which one actually has more room for 2hbh … who knows? My take is if you are looking for max 2hbh grip room … then you want a paddle with max grip length and a paddle with some narrow throat.

What say you 2hbh Pickleball peeps?

Those are very hairy arms

 

[ByeByePoly]

Those are very hairy arms

My posts often end up in the weeds