Hi! I have kind of a weird question. My region has a rule that 50%+ players on a team have to be at level. From reading here it seems like this rule is pretty common in most areas. So my question is: is it actually enforced? I know in my area, I give out the team # and players sign themselves up. It's not like these signups go through anyone at USTA. I'm guessing the area coordinator may quickly eyeball it but she's pretty busy and also works FT at her day job so probably not. And if another team noticed, would they complain that too many of the other team are BELOW level? what have you guys seen in regards to this? Thanks!
50%+ players at level rule - enforced?
- Thread starter DailyG&T
- Start date
D
Deleted member 23235
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gonna guess not.
probably no one looks unless you’re getting rocked and teams complain you’re too weak for the league.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
probably no one looks unless you’re getting rocked and teams complain you’re too weak for the league.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
I took a quick look at the national rules.
It sounds like violating the 50% rule would subject you as a team to DQ upon a grievance by a captain or the league coordinator. So if any opposing captain looks at TennisLink -- and they will -- they will see that your team is ineligible and your team will be removed. That will leave you all scrambling for a team at the higher level or scrambling to join forces at your USTA level.
There is an exception if you are all subject to the "move up/split up" rule. If so, you can all move up as a team even if you don't meet the 50% threshold.
Or you can have everyone try to appeal up and if enough of you are close enough it would solve your problem. And introduce other problems, namely getting smoked every week, but that's for another thread.
Fifty percent is a pretty generous threshold. My sister captains in another state, and their threshold is more tight -- only 30% can be playing up, I think.
You didn't ask, but . . . . my league does not have a limit on how many players on a team can be playing up. As a captain, I like having a team or two in the flight that consists of people playing up. It allows me to load my roster with my weaker players and get them matches without risking a team loss. In years in which we probably won't advance to the post-season (in other words, most years), I like how those teams playing up mean that my team won't finish last. I have a reputation to uphold, after all.
And as someone who thinks that conspiring and manipulating and scheming to get a vanity rating is misguided, I far prefer to just let people play up one level and learn exactly what it will take to earn that rating that they so desperately want. I know someone who is determined to get a bump up. But she has never once played at that higher level and has no idea how it is So Not Gonna Happen in this lifetime absent a major overhaul of her game.
Let her play up, I say, and see for herself.
It sounds like violating the 50% rule would subject you as a team to DQ upon a grievance by a captain or the league coordinator. So if any opposing captain looks at TennisLink -- and they will -- they will see that your team is ineligible and your team will be removed. That will leave you all scrambling for a team at the higher level or scrambling to join forces at your USTA level.
There is an exception if you are all subject to the "move up/split up" rule. If so, you can all move up as a team even if you don't meet the 50% threshold.
Or you can have everyone try to appeal up and if enough of you are close enough it would solve your problem. And introduce other problems, namely getting smoked every week, but that's for another thread.
Fifty percent is a pretty generous threshold. My sister captains in another state, and their threshold is more tight -- only 30% can be playing up, I think.
You didn't ask, but . . . . my league does not have a limit on how many players on a team can be playing up. As a captain, I like having a team or two in the flight that consists of people playing up. It allows me to load my roster with my weaker players and get them matches without risking a team loss. In years in which we probably won't advance to the post-season (in other words, most years), I like how those teams playing up mean that my team won't finish last. I have a reputation to uphold, after all.
And as someone who thinks that conspiring and manipulating and scheming to get a vanity rating is misguided, I far prefer to just let people play up one level and learn exactly what it will take to earn that rating that they so desperately want. I know someone who is determined to get a bump up. But she has never once played at that higher level and has no idea how it is So Not Gonna Happen in this lifetime absent a major overhaul of her game.
Let her play up, I say, and see for herself.
This is a rule that I've never seen enforced because it's basically unenforceable. The penalty would be removing a whole team from the league if they don't have enough at-level players by a certain deadline, but no league coordinator I know would do something so punitive. There's no way to enforce this as people register because you would have to dictate the order in which people can register, and it's hard enough just getting people to register.
I've been asked to be on two teams to play up, and a third team (the team I actually want to play up on) has me kind of on hold until she gets a sense of her numbers. So I looked for last year for both of the teams that did ask me and one of them actually had more than 50% playing up last year (9/16 were playing up.) So I was just kind of curious about it.
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
In my experience a team of a bunch of players playing up invites the at level (and especially highest at level) players a chance to manage their ratings. Im an appeal rating this year and playing two leagues with teams that have a lot of players playing up. Rather than smoking these jokers off the court 0&0 or something, i play to their strength or play alternative strategies and win by a more “competitive” score with the outcome never in question. I don’t understand why the guys want to play up because it seems like a good chance their rating will artificially inflate when they play guys who are managing their own rating.
Definitely an unintended, but real consequence, of allowing players to play up. You see some suspiciously close matches between players at the top 10% of a given level versus players in the mid-range of the level below them, and that allows a lot of room for ratings management.
My motive in playing up is what it always has been (when I was 3.0 wanting to play up to 3.5 and now as a 3.5 wanting to play up to 4.0) -- to get myself into the most competitive games I can. I don't care so much about "going to sectionals" or whatever, but personally tennis is the most fun when I walk away leaving it all on the court, and just playing to my maximum ability, and winning or losing but in a way that I know it was hard for her to beat me and I did a good showing. I have no illusions that these teams think I'm so fabulous that they're clamoring for me: it's because I happily prefer to play singles and don't mind driving to the farthest away matches. Most 3.5-4.0 women just don't have a preference for singles and often you can tell teams are just trading off who has to play singles that week. So to have someone who actually prefers it, happily does it, and wins a lot of the time is a desirable team member.
So many people play up in my area that the second I became a 3.5, all the "real" 3.5s are on 4.0 teams instead. It's like this cascade effect.
So many people play up in my area that the second I became a 3.5, all the "real" 3.5s are on 4.0 teams instead. It's like this cascade effect.
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
If usta stopped allowing players to play up, it may curb this sort of behavior. I guess their solution is putting more weight on post season matches where presumably players are playing to win and the quality of opponent is such that its too risky to keep the score line close for the sake of ratings management.
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
I’m not saying this has happened to you and I’m not suggesting it has, but do you think you’d know if you were playing up and the opponent dumped games to keep the score closer than it maybe should be? From what I read on these boards, it seems like this doesn’t occur much in women’s leagues as the overall push is to improve one’s rating. But i know it certainly happens in the men’s leagues. I always wonder if the other guy knows when he’s not getting my best effort or I don’t beat him as badly as i know i can.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
I think most people just go out and play their matches without scheming to manage their rating. A few scheme, but there are cheaters in every walk of life. Gotta just ignore it.
schmke
Legend
And in plus leagues this happens by design.
My team recently played a friends team in 40+ 4.5+ and we had a 5.0 on 1S and my friend (a 4.5) played 1S while their team put their 5.0s on 1D, so all legit. My team's 5.0 won 1 & 3, but my friend said he knew he was never going to win and my team's 5.0 wasn't tanking or throwing games but just not putting out full effort unless the score mandated he do so, and with a little let down to start the 2nd set gave up a break and the set score was probably closer than it could have been.
When I tried to sign up for a team that I was "under-level" for the USTA web site stopped me because there were too many under-level players on it already.
Yeah, it's not anything underhanded. It's just human nature not to play with the same intensity in a match where you don't actually need to. It might be different in a tournament where a 6-0 6-0 win means you have 20 mins less play on your body for the next round, but in a one-off league match, I think that happens all the time.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
In our area there is no 50+ at level rule for either 18+ or 40+ ... in fact one team in the league has 12 of 14 players BELOW level .... unfortunately not in my team's flight ..... so no easy win 
and instead my team is dead last in our flight .... 3rd set breakers killed us off ....
and instead my team is dead last in our flight .... 3rd set breakers killed us off ....
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Awwww. Well, there's always the spring season.
I picked up some young legs for spring. Cant wait to see how they do.
Are you going to play up?
I picked up some young legs for spring. Cant wait to see how they do.
Are you going to play up?
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
Tell your 5.0 to be careful or the term “cheater” will get thrown around.
schmke
Legend
LOL, he is the head pro at my club, I'm pretty sure he wants to keep the 5.0 by his name.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Not this season .... I have way too much going on to play on another team ... am already on 3 and they are all smallish rosters so a lot of playing time. I added 2 under 30 year olds for 18+ but the sad thing is that I am in better shape and move better than either of them ... although both have better strokes than I do ... when they land them in the court at least.
Will play up again likely in the Fall .... if I get out of my current "but I am playing so well" losing streak. Seriously, playing great, very pleased overall but taking a lot of Ls with a lot of tie breakers.
schmke
Legend
It is possible you are playing well, but in situations you are expected to lose. If you play doubles all the time and happen to play with partners playing up or that are just lower rated for their level, and play stronger opponents, you may be expected to lose and your results, despite being losses, are actually ok. So don't give up hope just because of the Ls!
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
It's hard to motivate yourself to bring your A game and win 0&0 at 9pm on a Thursday when you have been on court all day.
The only thing worse is when they know they can't beat you and go for a winner off every ball. Makes you want to say hey, how about you hit a few balls inside the lines so we get to play some tennis for our $30.
J
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An extreme case - my partner and I won a doubles match at 4.0 districts last year 6-1, 6-0. Now we knew the guys we played weren't great, but I have to admit I was a little disappointed when @schmke report tells me that my dynamic rating went down. Basically one guy was very low 4.0, and the other was playing up as a 3.5 so we were expected to win 0 & 0. Bottom line - nothing I do is good enough for @schmke .
All kidding aside, doubles ratings do introduce an extra layer of difficulty for the NTRP system (beyond the myriad ones already present). A good team will help to cover each other's weaknesses effectively improving the resulting product, but a poor pairing can do the opposite.
I also wonder about partners who have large gaps in their ratings, and if there's any degree of overcompensation there. In my limited experience, NTRP gives a lot more credit for beating teams that I perceived to be weaker when they had one higher rated and one lower rated player compared to the more difficult matches of two similarly rated partners.
schmke
Legend
How doubles players play together, the elusive "chemistry", can be a huge factor in how players do and where their ratings end up. If player A only plays well with B, but B does well with several others, A's rating will go down not playing with B, while B's will go up when not playing with A. Then when they play together they have a big ratings gap and A's rating is somewhat suppressed playing with a higher rated partner even if they do better than expected.An extreme case - my partner and I won a doubles match at 4.0 districts last year 6-1, 6-0. Now we knew the guys we played weren't great, but I have to admit I was a little disappointed when @schmke report tells me that my dynamic rating went down. Basically one guy was very low 4.0, and the other was playing up as a 3.5 so we were expected to win 0 & 0. Bottom line - nothing I do is good enough for @schmke .
All kidding aside, doubles ratings do introduce an extra layer of difficulty for the NTRP system (beyond the myriad ones already present). A good team will help to cover each other's weaknesses effectively improving the resulting product, but a poor pairing can do the opposite.
I also wonder about partners who have large gaps in their ratings, and if there's any degree of overcompensation there. In my limited experience, NTRP gives a lot more credit for beating teams that I perceived to be weaker when they had one higher rated and one lower rated player compared to the more difficult matches of two similarly rated partners.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Oh there are at least two outliers where I probably should have won .... but the rest, who knows, probably torching my rating these days .... don't care really right now but overall really am pleased with my level of play.
May just start playing singles though
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
I'm feeling all cocky because I found my 2HBH. Spring is in the air, I can get out and practice soon, indoor rates will drop enough that the ball machine will be affordable, we'll start having doubles clinic again . . .
Part of me wonders if I should try to get on a singles team this summer . . .
That part of me is an idiot. No good comes from listening to her.
Part of me wonders if I should try to get on a singles team this summer . . .
That part of me is an idiot. No good comes from listening to her.
ATX Tennis
Rookie
Locally, our rule is 51% must be at level. The LLC will remove below level players Last In First Out until the rule is satisfied.
