5oclock take back and more thoughts on the high 1hbh

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by StringSnapper, May 17, 2018.

  1. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    After experimenting with the 5oclock take back idea i've come a bit of a halt. (if you don't know what im talking about watch this: )

    The 5oclock FH works really well, almost straight into slot (but not quite) - very compact swing, handles fast balls really well, can hit variety, hits with a lot of power, forces you to use your body to generate spin. I guess the factor here is, after you rotate your torso, you can also control your arm to swing low to high more (for more topspin) or less (for flatter more penetrative shots).

    On the 1HBH this is a bit harder. I'm not sure why. It seems like the concept of "hit every ball at the same height" is super important here for the 1hbh. It also seems less intuitive the racquet "flip". On the FH it "flips" quite easily from 5oclock to under the ball, when the body moves it just seems to flip down and get under the ball. I guess a similar thing happens to the 1HBH, but i think it requires more focus to be put on actually getting the hand under the ball.. it might be an anatomical thing, due to the bh arm being across the body. (or this could just be me for some weird reason maybe a bad habit?) Also, mega emphasis has to be put on bending down, jumping up, or moving back, to hit the ball around waist height (or as close to, between 6 inches below waist to shoulder seems fine... but above shoulder is asking for trouble and below knee you gotta just slice IMO) as it will just be more risky to hit it anywhere else. I guess we already knew this, but spacing/positioning is super important on the 1hbh. I think the idea of "timing is king" on 1hbh is really not that true. More so is spacing / positining. Timing is key on everything, but you can time it well and still hit thin air if you're not in the right position. FH seems to compensate easy compared to BH.

    I mean, watch any of these videos:
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wawrinka+court+level

    IMO you will see nearly every backhand hit by Stan is hit around the same height. If he can, he will hit it around hip height. If he can't, he'll hit a loopier topspin from high up, or slice if its out wide or super low.

    If the ball is super high and deep to his BH, he often retreats further back, lets the ball drop, and has a massive cut at it. It seems to work for him. Even if his opponent has sensed him retreating, he's blasting this BH so hard it will be hard to do anything with.

    Also watch these "court level" videos on youtube with the wawrinka BH, the rallies usually have so much pace on them. The balls aren't being hit loopy, they're being hit penetrative. Why master the "above shoulder" 1hbh technique if high level tennis most shots are being struck very penetrative (and naturaly lower) and mostly hit around waist height anyway? In the rare occassion that someone hits a loopy deep ball to your BH, may as well move back a bit and just hit the same shot than try to master a new one. Easier to do that. For the players that loop everything to your BH? Well, they probably aren't very good players. Loopy shots require loopy strokes. Loopy strokes don't return pace well. When you serve and serve return, inject pace into every ball and their strokes will probably start to break down, timing off, shanking it, etc. If their strokes don't break down - can they loop off both wings? Hit it to the wing they cant. 2hbh is naturally a very flat shot. 1hbh is better for hitting spin. So you can either loop them back, or just hit to their 2hbh.
     
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  2. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    lol, 6m "elevator" speech.
    he should have rapped that lesson :p

    IMO part of the reason the 1hbh can't use the 5oclock prep (i'm interpretting this as a tip low prep), is because it needs a longer runway than than fh to generate rhs (ie. bh is off the front shoulder, fh is off the rear shoulder)
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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  3. Znak

    Znak Semi-Pro

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    Interesting watch. Out of curiosity, who is Vince Spadea?
     
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  4. comeback

    comeback Hall of Fame

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    wins over all the top players including Fed..was the tennis advisor for the movie "Battle of the Sexes"..wrote a tell all book that players and USTA didn't like so he is not part of the good old boys team that permeates the tennis channel/espn etc
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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  5. FiReFTW

    FiReFTW Hall of Fame

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    I find that hitting through the show (very slightly low to high) and forearm roll is a good combination, without the forearm roll theres not enough spin and its very inconsistent, sometimes I try to hit a flat hard shot bit it has a much lower margin for error.
     
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  6. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    What do you mean forearm roll?

    I find if my swingpath is flatter i need to use a lot of my body and "lag" to get spin on the ball
     
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  7. Znak

    Znak Semi-Pro

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    You making that forehand roll just after contact or during?

    Side note in that thumbnail I thought it was Chevy Chase from a national lampoon movie... :D
     
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  8. FiReFTW

    FiReFTW Hall of Fame

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    Rotating ur forearm/arm outwards.

    So racquet tip points down and then rotates up and over the ball and out.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. FiReFTW

    FiReFTW Hall of Fame

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    Before contact I drop the racquet tip down so its at a bigger angle down towards the ground and then as I swing up it starts to rotate up and over adding alot of extra spin.
     
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  10. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Alright i think ive figured this out.

    The 5oclock takeback works for the fh no questions asked. If it isnt working then you're hitting it into the net or long. The answer is to use your body more, rotate with the hips and core. Done.

    The 5oclock takeback concept (or 7oclock) for the 1hbh is slightly different. Firstly when you go into 5oclock, the off hand should stay on the racquet. From there its same with the fh, the hips and torso have to lead the rotation. However they should violently stop when your chest faces the net post. From there your arm lags through, and said lag may cause the rest of your chest to open to face the net.

    The fh is different because your chest generally opens all the way to face the net. I think this is a key reason why the fh is easier than the 1hbh: you have more timing to compensate because your chest is opening all the way to face the net. You have about half of that on the 1hbh so you gotta be in position and swing at the right time.

    Better footwork is also required on the 1hbh to try to hit the ball at the same height every time (i say ideally hip height to have a goal) but the truth is stopping your chest at the net post and getting your arm to lag around gives you a much larger strike zone.


    In serve return i like to go straight into slot instead of 'up 5oclock' like he does in the video. Slot provides more time again, but less power. Power not needed on serve return tho
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
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  11. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    Are you saying that something works definitely or absolutely because it worked for you, and something else needs caveats because it didn't work for you? That seems like a dangerous position to take or a dangerous way to explain things, in spite of the fact that I agree with you for the most part.
     
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  12. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Mostly just rambling to myself, it seems to help me remember if i write things down. Others often find it interesting too. But yeah works for me, might not work for others. Im self taught at tennis too so...
     
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  13. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    "hit every ball at the same height"

    What does that mean? Back up on high bouncing balls? So never hit a high backhand? Is that really feasible?
     
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  14. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    The aim is to hit every ball the same height, not the reality. But it sure helps the reality. If it is high bouncing then hit on rise, jump, or backup
     
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  15. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    I have to change my position on the 1hbh: there is no flip like on the fh. I still think the ideal fh for most people is the 5oclock takeback, but for the bh the off hand needs to guide the racquet head lower than the handle. Its a brief moment, but its like putting the head in the slot position that the fh "flips" into. You then just swing at the ball like a normal stroke. More down-to-up = more spin, more level = more penetration. A slight down to up swung fast will create a heavier ball
     
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  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I have not seen a jumping 1-handed backhand
     
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  17. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Heres two in one rally. You see something new every day

     
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  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I tried it out yesterday and it seems to work very well.

    What about the "take the ball on the rise" advice? A vestige of old school wood era tennis on grass where the ball did not bounce high with topspin?
     
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  19. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    hehe you won't see me hitting a jumping 1 handed BH, that is all I can say
     
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  20. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Yea i guess it kinda is.
    Hard to hit massive topspin on the rise, much easier to hit flatter balls on the rise
     
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  21. donquijote

    donquijote Legend

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    It takes a lot of energy to lift off 3.5 tons.
     
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  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I have heard "defend your strike zone" but the way you put it as "hit the ball at the same height" really solidified it for me.
     
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  23. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    I actually was hitting with the wall a few weeks ago and had noticed something with my consistency - if i always made contact at a similar height (i am for hip height) then the it was nearly always a good shot. It would also get my feet moving a lot more and in the right way, rather than just the typical 'move your feet' cue.

    I came on here and raved about this finding then someone quoted me and said ine of the coaches on here had that saying "hit the ball at the same height"
     
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  24. comeback

    comeback Hall of Fame

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    Yes 100% correct..But becomes difficult against a better player:)
     
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  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is why this forum is so valuable

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
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  26. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    So VS gave a cop a quick tennis lesson to get out of a speeding ticket?
     
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  27. Znak

    Znak Semi-Pro

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    [​IMG]
     
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