6,000 days

Nadal fans' fav argument ...... Ohh Federer did not have a GOAT candidate in his same gen outside clay ..... Ohhh Novak did not have a GOAT candidate in his same gen outside clay .... Ohh these guys never had to beat world number 1s in their career like Rafa could ...

Well how can you beat a world number 1 in your peak when you yourself are 1 ?
How can Roger or Novak have some non clay ATG when they themselves did not allow anyone to be ATG ????


Let me remind you that Nadal was an established GRASS courter with 2Ws and some finals by 2010 at age 24 and Novak had not yet won his 1st W title, yet from 2011 Novak won 6, Murray won 2, old Rodgi himself took 2, what was Nadal doing ????

Let me remind you Nadal fans claim of Aus open H2H and such nonsense vs Fed but Nadal has 0 AO after age 23 and old Rodgi himself took 3 AOs in this period, what was Nadal doing ???

USOs have actually saved Nadal's prestige, if he would have been a fail there then he actually would have look very inferior ..... \

So lets not make excuses of prime and peak rivals, Nadal had the advantage of exploiting the 08-10 period when Fed was decliing and Novak was yet to reach his peak, in this period Nadal was at his absolute peak and he won some slams, yet u make excuses?
Talk about a weak argument, they didn’t allow anyone to be an ATG...except RAFA has dominated those same players.

After 2011 RAFA’s grass game and prime declined. Besides, Joker didn’t pass him on grass until 2015 when RAFA was at his absolute worst.

He underperformed at the AO, but he also had some bad luck there especially in 2014.

The consensus is that tennis was at its strongest in 2007-2013 when the Big 3 were all much closer to each other prime and form wise. The players that made up the top 10 then were tougher too. 2009 and 2012 for example are sighted as 2 of the strongest years ever. And the guy who won the most out of the 3 was the guy you constantly disrespect. And 2008-2010 was still better than beating up on no ATGs or post prime ATGs like Fedovic got.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Dude, everyone is getting on your case about this because you said having a top 10 career is being a journeyman. If you want to “debate” it’s best not say something so ridiculously hyperbolic :p
Well, it’s not “everyone”. It’s Nadal fans. ;)

Coming up with a thought experiment that seeks to isolate a specific part of an argument is very common technique. Not to delve into philosophy of science type issues but facts, by themselves, are usually not worth much. Facts carry meaning within a context. And that’s what my argument was bringing up.

6000 days at top 10 is the fact. The implicit argument (actually explicit by some posters in this thread) is that this is an indicator of GOATness. And it’s that implicit (and explicit) argument I am addressing.

it’s similar to the argument of Fed’s 23 SFs in a row, also used many times here as GOAT worthy result. But Fed’s 23 SFs in a row only have any value because of the many slams he actually won in those 23 attempts. Had he not won any slams no one would care about the 23 SFs (I could also add, as a side note, that the posters that claim 23 SFs in a row are so important never seem to highlight that Novak was 1 match away from 24 SFs in a row).

in the case of Nadal the 6000 days only have value in the GOAT debate due to his time at #1. So my point is that it is that result that really matters. If Nadal had 1000 less days in the top 10 but 100 more weeks as #1 is there anyone who wouldn’t think that a better result?

so that’s my whole point. I am addressing the implicit argument, actually made explicit by at least one poster in this thread, that the 6000 days is part of the GOAT debate.
 

Sunny014

Legend
And 2008-2010 was still better than beating up on no ATGs or post prime ATGs like Fedovic got.

There did not get anything, they took it by force.

Federer did not get any weak rivals, he was himself behind Safin, Hewitt, Roddick. Ferrero, Agassi, Nalbandian in 2003, Imagine growing up with all these guys and being behind them throughout your life and then 1 day elevating yourself into their superior ? That is true genius and it requires all the credit that it can be given.

In Novak's case yes he got old ATGs and modest rivals in his gen but he was subjected to the most cruel crowds and biases, he came out of all those trials stronger and improved his game constantly to win the war of attrition..... That too requires some credit

What was Nadal doing ??? Squandering his edge on Grass in the 2010s, is there any excuse ? ? He actually had a good serve in 2010 and he lost it later, what sort of a guy does that ?? Is he even an ATG outside clay ??? Doubtful ......
 

Sunny014

Legend
Nadal sacrificed his greatness on grass in 00s for greatness on HCs in the next decade

This is why he is a 1 trick pony

He cannot dominate the tour round the year .... he has not won WTFs ever, raises serious questions on his game, if he is sent to the 90s where courts are all fast and low bounce then Nadal would be like clay courters of 90s who could not win outside clay.....
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Meaning 6000 days in the top 10 should be part of the GOAT debate if there is one.
Like you I don’t believe in GOATs. But if there is a GOAT debate Nadal has many claims, probably none greater than his 13 RGs and his GOATness in clay (he’s GOAT in a surface in a way no other player is in any other surface). But the 6000 days adds nothing to the GOAT debate in my opinion.
 

Mustard

Talk Tennis Guru
Like you I don’t believe in GOATs. But if there is a GOAT debate Nadal has many claims, probably none greater than his 13 RGs and his GOATness in clay (he’s GOAT in a surface in a way no other player is in any other surface). But the 6000 days adds nothing to the GOAT debate in my opinion.
10 straight calendar years winning a major (2005-2014), and 14 overall calendar years of winning a major (2005-2014, 2017-2020).
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
10 straight calendar years winning a major (2005-2014), and 14 overall calendar years of winning a major (2005-2014, 2017-2020).
Would you think any less of Nadal if he had won the same number of slams but in less years?
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Like you I don’t believe in GOATs. But if there is a GOAT debate Nadal has many claims, probably none greater than his 13 RGs and his GOATness in clay (he’s GOAT in a surface in a way no other player is in any other surface). But the 6000 days adds nothing to the GOAT debate in my opinion.
This is exactly the problem with the GOAT debate. Everyone is using the formula that favours their candidate best.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
This is exactly the problem with the GOAT debate. Everyone is using the formula that favours their candidate best.
I can agree with that. But I don’t think the 6000 days should be part of the debate in any case. Being top 10 for a long time is not GOAT worthy. Winning slams, dominating a surface, time at number 1, all those are GOAT relevant in my opinion
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
I can agree with that. But I don’t think the 6000 days should be part of the debate in any case. Being top 10 for a long time is not GOAT worthy. Winning slams, dominating a surface, time at number 1, all those are GOAT relevant in my opinion
The operative phrase being 'in my opinion'. Can't argue with that. I would argue that being consistently in the top 10 for 6000 days is a sign of greatness.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
The operative phrase being 'in my opinion'. Can't argue with that. I would argue that being consistently in the top 10 for 6000 days is a sign of greatness.
But, and maybe am beating a dead horse by now, what does that add? Suppose Nadal had less time as a top 10 but more as #1. Would anyone argue that would be worse? Can’t imagine it.

the point for me is that GOAT level accomplishments must Involve something greater than “just” being top 10
 
But, and maybe am beating a dead horse by now, what does that add? Suppose Nadal had less time as a top 10 but more as #1. Would anyone argue that would be worse? Can’t imagine it.

the point for me is that GOAT level accomplishments must Involve something greater than “just” being top 10
Until this year Federer was undisputed Goat imo, but since Djokovic reached #20 and thus equaled Federer in the most important criteria, you have to give it to Djokovic right now because he leads in the second and third most important Goat criterias that's the weeks at #1 and the number of YE #1 finishes. ;)
 
There did not get anything, they took it by force.

Federer did not get any weak rivals, he was himself behind Safin, Hewitt, Roddick. Ferrero, Agassi, Nalbandian in 2003, Imagine growing up with all these guys and being behind them throughout your life and then 1 day elevating yourself into their superior ? That is true genius and it requires all the credit that it can be given.

In Novak's case yes he got old ATGs and modest rivals in his gen but he was subjected to the most cruel crowds and biases, he came out of all those trials stronger and improved his game constantly to win the war of attrition..... That too requires some credit

What was Nadal doing ??? Squandering his edge on Grass in the 2010s, is there any excuse ? ? He actually had a good serve in 2010 and he lost it later, what sort of a guy does that ?? Is he even an ATG outside clay ??? Doubtful ......
Those guys weren’t ATG caliber players. Everyone of them had a major flaw in their game. Hewitt lacked the firepower to dominate. Roddick had a below average ROS, BH, and let’s not open the can of worms that was his court awareness. Safin had all the tools physically, but was weak mentally and had next to no work ethic. Nalbandian had an average serve and also had a pretty poor work ethic like Safin. Ferrero got chicken pox and was done in 04. And I love how Ol’ Rog fans ***** and moan about the age disadvantage when it comes to facing Nadavic, but are a okay with Agassi being 11 years older than Fed in 2004-2005.

Meanwhile, RAFA got to face all those guys as well as an absolute peak Ol’ Rog as a teenager.

And since 2015-2016 Joker has had it just as easy with #NextGen who are only just ahead of #LostGen as the worst Gen in tennis history.

RAFA’s grass prime was 2006-2011. During that time he had to face peak/prime Ol’ Rog, and was injured in 2009 was he couldn’t even compete. His prime across all surfaces was over in 2014.

As far as if he’s an ATG outside of clay...Yes, he has 7 schlems the same as guys like Mac and Wilander and more than Boris and Edberg. But you’d have to not know anything about tennis to question if he is.
 
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Azure

G.O.A.T.
But, and maybe am beating a dead horse by now, what does that add? Suppose Nadal had less time as a top 10 but more as #1. Would anyone argue that would be worse? Can’t imagine it.

the point for me is that GOAT level accomplishments must Involve something greater than “just” being top 10
To address this, its a ‘nice to have’ embellishment on an already stellar career and a terrific milestone in my opinion
 

Sunny014

Legend
This is exactly the problem with the GOAT debate. Everyone is using the formula that favours their candidate best.

Only formulas that matter are Slams + Weeks at 1 + Hypotheticals and perhaps popularity/iconic factor as well.

staying in the top 10 for 20 years doesn't matter much, it just means professionally u r among the best/top league for a long time
 
Well, it’s not “everyone”. It’s Nadal fans. ;)

Coming up with a thought experiment that seeks to isolate a specific part of an argument is very common technique. Not to delve into philosophy of science type issues but facts, by themselves, are usually not worth much. Facts carry meaning within a context. And that’s what my argument was bringing up.

6000 days at top 10 is the fact. The implicit argument (actually explicit by some posters in this thread) is that this is an indicator of GOATness. And it’s that implicit (and explicit) argument I am addressing.

it’s similar to the argument of Fed’s 23 SFs in a row, also used many times here as GOAT worthy result. But Fed’s 23 SFs in a row only have any value because of the many slams he actually won in those 23 attempts. Had he not won any slams no one would care about the 23 SFs (I could also add, as a side note, that the posters that claim 23 SFs in a row are so important never seem to highlight that Novak was 1 match away from 24 SFs in a row).

in the case of Nadal the 6000 days only have value in the GOAT debate due to his time at #1. So my point is that it is that result that really matters. If Nadal had 1000 less days in the top 10 but 100 more weeks as #1 is there anyone who wouldn’t think that a better result?

so that’s my whole point. I am addressing the implicit argument, actually made explicit by at least one poster in this thread, that the 6000 days is part of the GOAT debate.
It’s a thread started by a RAFAN for other RAFANs to celebrate a cool achievement. Nowhere in the OP was it insinuated that he was the GOAT because of that. The only one to bring that up was clayqueen. This thread wasn’t even meant to spark a debate or argument. You started that on your own.

The reason people are calling you out on this is because you were essentially raining on their parade in a mere appreciation thread, or in my case for making a ludicrous statement that being in the top 10 for that long for any player is basically nothing more than journeyman status.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Those guys weren’t ATG caliber players. Everyone of them had a major flaw in their game. Hewitt lacked the firepower to dominate. Roddick had a below average ROS, BH, and let’s not open the can of worms that was his court awareness. Safin had all the tools physically, but was weak mentally and had next to no work ethic. Nalbandian had an average serve and also had a pretty poor work ethic like Safin. Ferrero got chicken pox and was done in 04. And I love how Ol’ Rog fans ***** and moan about the age disadvantage when it comes to facing Nadavic, but are a okay with Agassi being 11 years older than Fed in 2004-2005.

Meanwhile, RAFA got to face all those guys as well as an absolute peak Ol’ Rog as a teenager.

And since 2015-2016 Joker has had it just as easy with #NextGen who are only just ahead of #LostGen as the worst Gen in tennis history.

RAFA’s grass prime was 2006-2011. During that time he had to face peak/prime Ol’ Rog, and was injured in 2009 was he couldn’t even compete. His prime across all surfaces was over in 2014.

As far as if he’s an ATG outside of clay...Yes, he has the 7 schlems the same as guys like Mac and Wilander and more than Boris and Edberg. But you’d have to not know anything about tennis to question if he is.
Rafa's A Game was oriented on ferocious footspeed and chasing the backhand, so that suited him as a teenage prodigy, so it was to the advantage of Rafa that he was faster than Fed and significantly younger to impose himself physically on Rog, plus he being so good on clay acted a vulgar advantage mentally on other courts too.

Rafa every year had a win over everyone on clay, so no matter how good a form Roger or Novak were they always knew that less than 12 months back Rafa has beaten them, that played in the back of their minds.

This is how Roger lost wimbledon as well coupled by illness too around the same period, so you see, Rafa being so good on clay benefitted him on other surfaces too by keeping his mental edge intact

Agassi was 11 years older, yes, but then Agassi was never a force on grass or clay and he was just a Hard Courter, so what are we indicating here? He had his time in 90s and he did not win much, later he snapped some wins, so what?

As far as 7 slams go, you can consider them to be 4, beause Mac and others guys played in an era when their careers were like over by 26-27, so you can half Rafa's tally or double Mac's tally to keep it fair
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
It’s a thread started by a RAFAN for other RAFANs to celebrate a cool achievement. Nowhere in the OP was it insinuated that he was the GOAT because of that. The only one to bring that up was clayqueen. This thread wasn’t even meant to spark a debate or argument. You started that on your own.

The reason people are calling you out on this is because you were essentially raining on their parade in a mere appreciation thread, or in my case for making a ludicrous statement that being in the top 10 for that long for any player is basically nothing more than journeyman status.
A. It was mentioned by one poster
B. OP has a history of similar posting, making implicit arguments
C. This is TTW and if a poster wants a Nadal fans only celebration there’s a specific thread for that
 
Rafa's A Game was oriented on ferocious footspeed and chasing the backhand, so that suited him as a teenage prodigy, so it was to the advantage of Rafa that he was faster than Fed and significantly younger to impose himself physically on Rog, plus he being so good on clay acted a vulgar advantage mentally on other courts too.

Rafa every year had a win over everyone on clay, so no matter how good a form Roger or Novak were they always knew that less than 12 months back Rafa has beaten them, that played in the back of their minds.

This is how Roger lost wimbledon as well coupled by illness too around the same period, so you see, Rafa being so good on clay benefitted him on other surfaces too by keeping his mental edge intact

Agassi was 11 years older, yes, but then Agassi was never a force on grass or clay and he was just a Hard Courter, so what are we indicating here? He had his time in 90s and he did not win much, later he snapped some wins, so what?

As far as 7 slams go, you can consider them to be 4, beause Mac and others guys played in an era when their careers were like over by 26-27, so you can half Rafa's tally or double Mac's tally to keep it fair
You might as well have responded with “I have no idea what I’m talking about”. This was just basically one big excuse for Ol’ Rog after you accused me of making excuses for RAFA. Then you disrespect Agassi...after trying to use him to pump up Ol’ Rog’s competition. Honestly the more I let you talk the more your argument collapses in on itself. You’re basically making my points for me :-D
 
A. It was mentioned by one poster
B. OP has a history of similar posting, making implicit arguments
C. This is TTW and if a poster wants a Nadal fans only celebration there’s a specific thread for that
A. By a poster that no one takes seriously.

B. OP literally posted a tweet. Without any additional texts so you’re reaching there.

C. If you wanted to actually argue about the importance (or the supposed lack thereof) of this achievement then have an actual argument instead of a strawman.
 

weakera

G.O.A.T.
As I was saying… :sneaky:

There I'm just successfully triggering folks like you as per yoose. I didn't mean this to be a GOAT thread, just wanted to share this sensational and other-worldly achievement.

I mean think about it. Nadal has been top-10 since before you were born :oops:o_O:-D
 

Sunny014

Legend
You might as well have responded with “I have no idea what I’m talking about”. This was just basically one big excuse for Ol’ Rog after you accused me of making excuses for RAFA. Then you disrespect Agassi...after trying to use him to pump up Ol’ Rog’s competition. Honestly the more I let you talk the more your argument collapses in on itself. You’re basically making my points for me :-D
I did not use Old agassi to pump up Roger

I said Roger was behind 4-5 guys of his gen and also begin last decade ATG Agassi

In 2004 he elevated ahead of them all, that is pure greatness

If today someone like Zverev were to raise himself among all of his peers from same age group and also ahead of Novak (who is the new agassi) then it would mean Zverev is special

U cannot ask why there is no ATG established now aged 20s, that is not Zverev's problem, it is Novak's benefit, not Sascha's because Sascha is coming up now..... he is expected to beat Novak anyway, if he cannot then it is his problem
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
A. By a poster that no one takes seriously.

B. OP literally posted a tweet. Without any additional texts so you’re reaching there.

C. If you wanted to actually argue about the importance (or the supposed lack thereof) of this achievement then have an actual argument instead of a strawman.
A. To each their own
B. OP just made it explicit. Not that there was any doubt for anyone who follows what OP posts
C. You don’t know what straw man means
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
There I'm just successfully triggering folks like you as per yoose. I didn't mean this to be a GOAT thread, just wanted to share this sensational and other-worldly achievement.

I mean think about it. Nadal has been top-10 since before you were born :oops:o_O:-D
Lol
 

ffw2

Professional
lol, loving the GOATery sequence:

1) OP creates thread featuring random manufactured Nadal stat...

2) User chimes in with assessment of the data ("GOAT")...

3) OP endorses GOAT assessment.

Ladies and gents, this is the GOAT-thread template for our times. (y):notworthy:
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
lol, loving the GOATery sequence:

1) OP creates thread featuring random manufactured Nadal stat...

2) User chimes in with assessment of the data ("GOAT")...

3) OP endorses GOAT assessment.

Ladies and gents, this is the GOAT-thread template for our times. (y):notworthy:
And it’s only going to get worse! :eek: :sneaky:
 

weakera

G.O.A.T.
lol, loving the GOATery sequence:

1) OP creates thread featuring random manufactured Nadal stat...

2) User chimes in with assessment of the data ("GOAT")...

3) OP endorses GOAT assessment.

Ladies and gents, this is the GOAT-thread template for our times. (y):notworthy:

As usual I am just playing certain folks here like a fiddle.

 
A. To each their own
B. OP just made it explicit. Not that there was any doubt for anyone who follows what OP posts
C. You don’t know what straw man means
Lol sure! I’m not the one making the claim that because being #1 is more important that it means that if you’re only in the top 10 for almost 20 years then that means you’re nothing more than a run of the mill journeyman 8-B

Trying applying that way of thinking to literally any other profession.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Lol sure! I’m not the one making the claim that because being #1 is more important that it means that if you’re only in the top 10 for almost 20 years then that means you’re nothing more than a run of the mill journeyman 8-B

Trying applying that way of thinking to literally any other profession.
At least read what I wrote! I said high end journeyman! :cool:
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
It's literally just a nice achievement of Nadal's lol. As I said he has been in the top-10 for longer than many posters in this thread have been alive. That is amazing.
And you did it out of the goodness of your heart! Given your posting history I totally believe you :D :D :rolleyes:
 
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