8.0 Mixed Teams should not allow 4.5 players

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
In my opinion, USTA 8.0 Mixed teams should be limited to players with
ratings of 4.0 or below.

I frequently see a 4.5 man teamed with a 3.5 woman and it's usually a lopsided
win over the 4.0 opponents.

The Mixed league should operate similarly to the Men's 4.0 League where a 4.5 man is not allowed to play with a 3.5 man.

Why should it be any different for a Mixed League?
 
In my opinion, USTA 8.0 Mixed teams should be limited to players with
ratings of 4.0 or below.

I frequently see a 4.5 man teamed with a 3.5 woman and it's usually a lopsided
win over the 4.0 opponents.

The Mixed league should operate similarly to the Men's 4.0 League where a 4.5 man is not allowed to play with a 3.5 man.

Why should it be any different for a Mixed League?

I was surprised to read this, because I always thought that the even 4.0 /4.0 combination was better able to isolate and pick on the 3.5 w/ the 4.5.

So I would favor the 4.0/4.0 team.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Honestly, I think the rules for mixed should be changed so that there cannot be more than .5 between partner rating levels. (Right now the rule is 1.0 difference).

That means 8.0 mixed would be limited to two 4.0s or a 4.0 and a 3.5 who is playing up. Similarly 7.0 would be two 3.5s or a 4.0/3.5 pair.

Right now, mixed teams can be too lopsided and can turn into Xtreme keepaway.

Keep the 3.0s at 6.0 mixed, keep the 3.5s at 7.0 mixed, keep the 4.0s at 8.0 mixed. What is wrong with doing it that way?
 

rich s

Hall of Fame
In my opinion, USTA 8.0 Mixed teams should be limited to players with
ratings of 4.0 or below.

I frequently see a 4.5 man teamed with a 3.5 woman and it's usually a lopsided
win over the 4.0 opponents.

The Mixed league should operate similarly to the Men's 4.0 League where a 4.5 man is not allowed to play with a 3.5 man.

Why should it be any different for a Mixed League?

it's especially "fun" when the 4.5 player is teaching pro and his partner is his best self-rated 3.5 student that he can on court coach while they play....
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
if you have two solid and "smart" 4.0 players they will always pick on the 3.5 player. Sounds more like the OP does not like losing.
 

goober

Legend
Around here the 4.5M/ 3.5F dominate, I would say the winning % when this combo goes up against a 4.0/4.0 combo seems like 90%. All the top teams in my league are set up this way. Every single team which is made up of mostly 4.0/4.0 combos is in the bottom half of the standings.

Typically 4.5 M is a teaching pro or ex-college player. The 3.5 F are either self rated or mixed exclusive and are better than many regular 4.0F in leagues.
 
D

decades

Guest
tennis players would never resort to seeking to gain an advantage via the numbers of NTRP.
 

rich s

Hall of Fame
Around here the 4.5M/ 3.5F dominate, I would say the winning % when this combo goes up against a 4.0/4.0 combo seems like 90%. All the top teams in my league are set up this way. Every single team which is made up of mostly 4.0/4.0 combos is in the bottom half of the standings.

Typically 4.5 M is a teaching pro or ex-college player. The 3.5 F are either self rated or mixed exclusive and are better than many regular 4.0F in leagues.

goober, what part of the country are you in? sounds a lot like ATL.....
 

Cruzer

Professional
In my opinion, USTA 8.0 Mixed teams should be limited to players with
ratings of 4.0 or below.

I frequently see a 4.5 man teamed with a 3.5 woman and it's usually a lopsided
win over the 4.0 opponents.

Really? I never see that. The 3.5 woman still has to serve and return serves. The 4.5 guy can't help her with those shots. I see 4.5 man/3.5 woman teams that are competitive but they don't dominate to 4.0 players.

Someone wrote a 5.0 man/3.0 woman as being a great 8.0 team. I have seen a couple of those teams when they were allowed in league play and against two 4.0 players they lost handily.
 

Angle Queen

Professional
Honestly, I think the rules for mixed should be changed so that there cannot be more than .5 between partner rating levels. (Right now the rule is 1.0 difference).

That means 8.0 mixed would be limited to two 4.0s or a 4.0 and a 3.5 who is playing up. Similarly 7.0 would be two 3.5s or a 4.0/3.5 pair.

Right now, mixed teams can be too lopsided and can turn into Xtreme keepaway.

Keep the 3.0s at 6.0 mixed, keep the 3.5s at 7.0 mixed, keep the 4.0s at 8.0 mixed. What is wrong with doing it that way?
This. It still allows (and encourages) "combo" play...while still keeping things reasonably competitive.
 

j00dypoo

Rookie
If you didn't allow 4.5 players it wouldn't be 8.0 combined, it would be regular 4.0 mixed. That would defeat the whole purpose of the league.

yup... that's the purpose of combo leagues. also, the 4.5 players wouldn't have many places to play if they weren't allowed on the 8.0 teams.

I personally would rather play higher than be bored when the opponents play keep away.
 

goober

Legend
goober, what part of the country are you in? sounds a lot like ATL.....

Southwest...

I just did a quick count of 4.5M/3.5F winning % against 4.0/4.0 combos halfway through this season. 80%+ winning, A little less than what I thought but still pretty significant.
 

ryan sc

New User
I love it when i hear this type of complaining .Sounds like you lost fair and square to a better team but now you want to ban 4.5M from playing 8.0.Let me present this in another way .How about we ban all 4.0 and 3.5 men from playing up a level due to lack of skill .Personally I'm sick and tired of playing 4.0M in my 4.5 league matches that are thrown out there as sacrificial lambs at 1 or 2 singles.I would much rather play a 5.0 guy and take my beatdown and gain from the experience then easily beat 4.0 guy.I've played 8.0 mixed in the past and you hear this type of stuff all the time. Btw I'm 35 yrs old never played college tennis and I'm certainly not a teaching pro.I'm rated exactly where I should be so no sandbagging going on here.
 

dcdoorknob

Hall of Fame
If you didn't allow 4.5 players it wouldn't be 8.0 combined, it would be regular 4.0 mixed. That would defeat the whole purpose of the league.

I pretty much agree with this. What you're basically asking for is not a combo league, it's just a level league (3.0, 3.5, 4.0) with the option to play up as always.
 

Vik

Rookie
if you have two solid and "smart" 4.0 players they will always pick on the 3.5 player. Sounds more like the OP does not like losing.

Ha! You couldn't be more wrong on this. Just take a look at last year's 8.0 mixed national winners from TX. 4.5/3.5 for the win. And that team sleepwalked to the national championship.

The key there is having 5.0 men and 4.0 women ;)
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
Ha! You couldn't be more wrong on this. Just take a look at last year's 8.0 mixed national winners from TX. 4.5/3.5 for the win. And that team sleepwalked to the national championship.

The key there is having 5.0 men and 4.0 women ;)

The 5.0/4.0 comment is accurate looking at the guys on the team, that was a joke on the ratings.

To bad one of the guys left his 4.5 team out to dry at nationals last year to sleepwalk thru Mixed.
 

Vik

Rookie
The 5.0/4.0 comment is accurate looking at the guys on the team, that was a joke on the ratings.

To bad one of the guys left his 4.5 team out to dry at nationals last year to sleepwalk thru Mixed.

Actually 2 of them carried us to nationals. But they had to work the week of nationals ;)
 

Nellie

Hall of Fame
the problem I see, when the the team is different by 1 level, is that the lower rated player is often way out of whack. With the 8.0 example, the difference between 4.5, 5.0, and 5.5 players in my area is not too noticeable (since 4.5 is the top end for league play, so you get a lot of ex-college players). With a 3.5 player who is really a 4.0+, that is a big, big difference since you have someone who should have decent serves, returns, and volleys.
 

goober

Legend
the problem I see, when the the team is different by 1 level, is that the lower rated player is often way out of whack. With the 8.0 example, the difference between 4.5, 5.0, and 5.5 players in my area is not too noticeable (since 4.5 is the top end for league play, so you get a lot of ex-college players). With a 3.5 player who is really a 4.0+, that is a big, big difference since you have someone who should have decent serves, returns, and volleys.

+1 on this. When the 3.5 F (or M for that matter) is actually 4.0+ that creates the most mismatches because there is nobody to pick on. Then you have a 8.5+ team playing a 8.0 team.
 

Topaz

Legend
it's especially "fun" when the 4.5 player is teaching pro and his partner is his best self-rated 3.5 student that he can on court coach while they play....

Yes, that is a lot of fun!

:twisted:

We weren't undefeated either...

Edited to add...but I'm not self rated either. Quite a miserable 3.5 record actually...
 

pennc94

Professional
My experience is that the disparity between a 4.5 guy and 4.0 guy is bigger than the disparity between a 3.5 lady and 4.0 lady.

Because of this, the 3.5 lady is not as much of a "weak link" (i.e. a 3.5 lady and 4.0 lady are nearly equivalent players), and the 4.5 guy can dominate the play.

goober's numbers agree with my experience.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I think my experience is that a top 4.5 guy and decent 3.5 woman will win.

Second best is 4.0/4.0 pair.

Third best by a country mile is 3.5 guy with 4.5 woman.

Still, I have lost with to all of these combinations at some point, so I guess you just need to make sure the guy in 8.0 mixed is very strong for his level.

Cindy -- who lost to a 3.5 guy whose serve was so strong that her 4.5 partner couldn't return it
 
The problem is "out of level" players..
what about a 4.0/4.0 pairing who are both really 4.5s??
In doubles its the two players ratings added together so it does not matter if its 3.0/5.0 4-4 or 4.5/3.5
if anyone is out of level its non competitve..
the usta really cant do much with dis honest people with the sandbagging and intentionally self rating to low..

What they could do though is make the Self rated mixed player subject to DQ just like a self rated adult player AND count all matches all season... Adult, Mixed, Combo, Tri-Level, Tournaments and whatever other leagues are out there.. Every match in the computer should count!
 
Not only do i agree the mixed combinations should be allowed for mixed... i think for adult it should be allowed..

I think say a 4.0 mens adult league.. In the doubles aspect a 4.5 and 3.5 should be allowed to play doubles.. I think the 4.5 should not be allowed to play singles in a 4.0 league but the 3.5 could i guess.. I think this would encourage more players and more teams.. In the smaller areas we dont have enough 4.5 players to play in a league..
 
Who cares what the combos are it is about going out and getting it done. Improving your game so that the next year you'll be winning. If you never play up you'll never get better.
 

OrangePower

Legend
Not only do i agree the mixed combinations should be allowed for mixed... i think for adult it should be allowed..

I think say a 4.0 mens adult league.. In the doubles aspect a 4.5 and 3.5 should be allowed to play doubles.. I think the 4.5 should not be allowed to play singles in a 4.0 league but the 3.5 could i guess.. I think this would encourage more players and more teams.. In the smaller areas we dont have enough 4.5 players to play in a league..

I personally would hate this. I'm sympathetic to your point about lack of higher rated players in smaller areas. But I enjoy playing doubles when all of the players on the court are at roughly the same level. Playing a pair where there is a large discrepency between their levels does not result in the same quality of tennis all-around IMHO. This is a major reason why I don't play mixed.
 

bruintennis

Semi-Pro
I think the rules are fine. If you have one stronger guy (4.5) or whatever and a weaker woman, then you need to improve your strategy and figure out a way to pick on the weaker player.
 

jonnyjack

Semi-Pro
They need to just ban self-rates from playing in playoffs and beyond. All you have to do is look at the roster of those teams that go to Districts/Sectionals and you'll see the self-rates on the team carrying them through the post-season with their 12-0 records.

Make them play a year to get computer rated before they can play in the postseason. You always see the same teams/captains advance because they just reload on self-rates every year.

Districts/Sectionals just becomes a who has the better self-rated ringer competition.
 

Wakenslam

Rookie
I play 8.0 mixed combo and our best three teams are 4.5 men/3.5 women. We won city last season and have an even stronger team this season. All our players except 1 new woman are computer rated. I like the rules of this league just the way they are. :) :oops:

The problem is the USTA computer. We just had a guy get bumped down to 4.0 after going undefeated last season at 4.5 mens and 8.0 mixed combo - all doubles matches. After that he went 4-0 at 4.5 men's state last weekend. Another guy went 2-2 in doubles on the 4.5 men's team and got bumped to 5.0. Ridiculous.
 
My fiancé and I just played our first 9.0 mixed match. She's 4.0, I'm 5.0 and we're both self-rates. Our opponents were both computer rated 4.5's who rarely lose in doubles or mixed.

The other guy held to start the match, but we went to deuce. Then I held at love and we broke the other girl at love. We were feeling pretty good, but lost the next five games. After those first three games, every time our opponents had a chance to hit an aggressive shot, it went to my fiancé. And every time they had to hit a defensive shot, it went to her as well. We did come back in the 2nd and went to a breaker, where we lost 9-7.

In our case, it seemed like all the rating levels were pretty accurate. But as my fiancé observed, the other girl was at least .6 better than her, while I'm probably no better than .2 or .3 better than the other guy.
 

TheOC

New User
I just wish there were more 5.0 women so there could be a 10.0 league in my district. From my experience playing 9.0 mixed as a 5.0 man, it's either a pretty easy win or it's an agonizing loss. This is because of the vast range of teams in my league. We have 2-3 very solid teams, while the other ones seem to be the lower half of the 4.5s. If we play one of the good teams, I'm gonna have trouble making sure to poach away as many balls as I can from my partner. Whereas against the weaker teams its much easier to dictate play
 

Vox Rationis

Professional
Great. Even fewer competitive matches for 4.5s and above to play. This is how you drive people out of USTA. Should we really be trying to push more players out of league tennis?
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
In my opinion, USTA 8.0 Mixed teams should be limited to players with
ratings of 4.0 or below.

I frequently see a 4.5 man teamed with a 3.5 woman and it's usually a lopsided
win over the 4.0 opponents.

The Mixed league should operate similarly to the Men's 4.0 League where a 4.5 man is not allowed to play with a 3.5 man.

Why should it be any different for a Mixed League?
i'll take it further and say, it should be utr pairings... ie. both players should be within .5 utr of the level.
female ntrp is at least .5 lower than the same male ntrp...
so if you have a 4.5M playing with a 3.5F...
it's like 7.5 men's doubles.... a waste of time for the 4.5
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
i'll take it further and say, it should be utr pairings... ie. both players should be within .5 utr of the level.
female ntrp is at least .5 lower than the same male ntrp...
so if you have a 4.5M playing with a 3.5F...
it's like 7.5 men's doubles.... a waste of time for the 4.5

That would effectively ban good 5.0s from mixed.

J
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
As soon as the male player reaches 4.5 or above, he can dominate the match making it a singles vs doubles game. People always say you just have to hit at the 3.5 lady but trust me, that is fools gold. A good 3.5 lady can stand close to the net and put away most any shot a 4.0 can throw at her. She will be able to return most 4.0 serves. She will be able to lob from her baseline to neutralize the point and set up her partner for an overhead. The 4.5 male can just linger around the T and take on everything but the best shots of the opposing team and will particularly feast on the 4.0 woman on the other side.

Mixed should have a simple rule that no team can consist of a higher rated male player. So a 4.0 male with 4.0 female or a 4.5 female with a 3.5 male in 8.0. I know they allow it because there are more higher rated males, but maybe if you are a 4.5-5.0 male you really shouldn't be out there with 3.5 women.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I wore my Fitbit in a 9.0 match a few years ago. I think it said I went 5 miles.

I remember the match, wonder if I can look up the date.

J
Screenshot-20181114-111921-Fitbit.jpg


J
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
That would effectively ban good 5.0s from mixed.

J

That may not be such a bad thing. Mixed is always best when the women are almost as good as the men. As the men get higher in level they almost become 1.0 better than the comparable rated woman. So a 5.0 male with s 4.0 woman is quite imbalanced and can't imagine its fun or even remotely competitive for a 4.0 man playing with a 5.0 woman.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
As soon as the male player reaches 4.5 or above, he can dominate the match making it a singles vs doubles game. People always say you just have to hit at the 3.5 lady but trust me, that is fools gold. A good 3.5 lady can stand close to the net and put away most any shot a 4.0 can throw at her. She will be able to return most 4.0 serves. She will be able to lob from her baseline to neutralize the point and set up her partner for an overhead. The 4.5 male can just linger around the T and take on everything but the best shots of the opposing team and will particularly feast on the 4.0 woman on the other side.
This concise definition of 8.0 should have a sticky!
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
That would effectively ban good 5.0s from mixed.

J

@nytennisaddict wants to eliminate all women under 4.0 NTRP as well ... because exactly what would they play and with whom?
The average UTR in 3.5 is 3 with a few scattered 4s (that are really UTR 3.5X) ... so they would be playing at best with 3.0NTRP men? As there are so few 3.0 men you just said that the largest population of female recreational tennis players should not be able to play mixed.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
That may not be such a bad thing. Mixed is always best when the women are almost as good as the men. As the men get higher in level they almost become 1.0 better than the comparable rated woman. So a 5.0 male with s 4.0 woman is quite imbalanced and can't imagine its fun or even remotely competitive for a 4.0 man playing with a 5.0 woman.

5.0F/4.0M is actually a better team than 4.5/4.5 because if done right both the 5.0F and 4.0M can overwhelm the 4.5F and one slip by the 4.5M can lose a game.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
@nytennisaddict wants to eliminate all women under 4.0 NTRP as well ... because exactly what would they play and with whom?
The average UTR in 3.5 is 3 with a few scattered 4s (that are really UTR 3.5X) ... so they would be playing at best with 3.0NTRP men? As there are so few 3.0 men you just said that the largest population of female recreational tennis players should not be able to play mixed.

*Insert generic chauvinist shade throwing*

J
 
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