schmke
Legend
You play in the morning and go for a run in the afternoon because the match wasn't enough of a workout for you?
You play in the morning and go for a run in the afternoon because the match wasn't enough of a workout for you?
not trying to eliminate anything... just trying to get closer to the ideal, of similar skilled players (m or f), playing together...@nytennisaddict wants to eliminate all women under 4.0 NTRP as well ... because exactly what would they play and with whom?
The average UTR in 3.5 is 3 with a few scattered 4s (that are really UTR 3.5X) ... so they would be playing at best with 3.0NTRP men? As there are so few 3.0 men you just said that the largest population of female recreational tennis players should not be able to play mixed.
i've played this a bunch of times at 9.0 back when i was a 4.0... definitely alot of fun... i don't think of it as "mixed",.. just 4 decent players on the court (with the f being better)5.0F/4.0M is actually a better team than 4.5/4.5 because if done right both the 5.0F and 4.0M can overwhelm the 4.5F and one slip by the 4.5M can lose a game.
J
i've gotten crushed by enough girls and women, in singles and dubs, to know better... nothing to do with being chauvinistic.*Insert generic chauvinist shade throwing*
J
well technically if 4.0/4.0 is rlly picking on the 3.5/4.5 team the 4.5 player can easily adjust but playing singles vs the 2 4.0s and beat them handily. I've seen a guy play 2 back and when his partner serves she would back up into the alley and he would take 80% of the court. her job is to just throw a lob if it gets to herMy experience is that the disparity between a 4.5 guy and 4.0 guy is bigger than the disparity between a 3.5 lady and 4.0 lady.
Because of this, the 3.5 lady is not as much of a "weak link" (i.e. a 3.5 lady and 4.0 lady are nearly equivalent players), and the 4.5 guy can dominate the play.
goober's numbers agree with my experience.
You play in the morning and go for a run in the afternoon because the match wasn't enough of a workout for you?
i've gotten crushed by enough girls and women, in singles and dubs, to know better... nothing to do with being chauvinistic.
I Completely Overwhelmingly AGREE with this. Lets all write to USTA and make this change effective starting with January leagues. Please................In my opinion, USTA 8.0 Mixed teams should be limited to players with
ratings of 4.0 or below.
I frequently see a 4.5 man teamed with a 3.5 woman and it's usually a lopsided
win over the 4.0 opponents.
The Mixed league should operate similarly to the Men's 4.0 League where a 4.5 man is not allowed to play with a 3.5 man.
Why should it be any different for a Mixed League?
I Completely Overwhelmingly AGREE with this. Lets all write to USTA and make this change effective starting with January leagues. Please................
If your strategy relies on me not being a dick you need a new strategy.
J
I Completely Overwhelmingly AGREE with this. Lets all write to USTA and make this change effective starting with January leagues. Please................
You are about to get a second serve, there's a 3.5 female at the net. How many people are gonna go for skin even though it's absolutely the correct play?
I don't really care as I don't play USTA. But was curious as to the rationale. In men's 8.0 league you would not be allowed 4.5M/3.5M vs 4.0M/4.0M, presumably because it would not be competitive. But that is allowed in 8.0 Mixed. Makes no sense.
This. @Raul_SJ what you are probably more interested in is either making Mixed not a combo league, just call it 4.0 and then only 3.5s and 4.0s can play, or what I've advocated is making Mixed half point leagues but still combo, e.g. 6.5, 7.5, 8.5, ... and requiring players be within a half point. So an 8.5 league could have 4.5M/4.0F, 4.0M/4.5F, or 4.0M/4.0F and that is it. This brings the skill levels a lot closer than the 4.5/3.5 pairs we have today in 8.0, but still gives teams some flexibility in constructing their rosters and lets friends at different levels still play together.You sure can in 8.0 men's. That's why it's 8.0 combo not 4.0.
J
A handful. I can usually win the point without putting a ball through someone's sternum but if they take up a position they can't defend then they are going to be made aware of my presence.
Same thing in men's, if my opponent is playing with his balls hanging over the net strap he is going to eat a ball at my earliest convenience.
J
In men's I would take it as a personal insult and swing away but mixed is different. I don't know that female. Maybe she knows what she signed up for or maybe she's standing where the 4.5 told her to stand. I've seen tears on someone else's court and I don't need that.
This. @Raul_SJ what you are probably more interested in is either making Mixed not a combo league, just call it 4.0 and then only 3.5s and 4.0s can play, or what I've advocated is making Mixed half point leagues but still combo, e.g. 6.5, 7.5, 8.5, ... and requiring players be within a half point. So an 8.5 league could have 4.5M/4.0F, 4.0M/4.5F, or 4.0M/4.0F and that is it. This brings the skill levels a lot closer than the 4.5/3.5 pairs we have today in 8.0, but still gives teams some flexibility in constructing their rosters and lets friends at different levels still play together.
The advancing Adult leagues in 18/40 aren't combo leagues. But 55+ generally is, and many sections have "Combo" leagues where sometimes a rating gap of more than 1.0 is even allowed.I haven't played USTA in several years. Maybe my memory is off. I seem to distinctly recall a men's 3.5 league that typically played a 3.5M/3.5M doubles line, but a 4.0M/3.0M was not allowed. And then there was a 7.0 Mixed and 8.0 Mixed league that typically played a 3.5M/3.5F and 4.0M/4.0F, but did allow a 4.0M/3.0F and 4.5M/3.5F respectively.
The advancing Adult leagues in 18/40 aren't combo leagues. But 55+ generally is, and many sections have "Combo" leagues where sometimes a rating gap of more than 1.0 is even allowed.
Mixed have always (as far I I recall) been combo leagues. In part, combo leagues allow more players to play more leagues (a 3.5 can play 6.0, 7.0, and 8.0) meaning more registration fees so the USTA likes that. And they do allow friends/spouses of different levels to play on the same team together which is a perk for some. I agree they aren't ideal competitively, but you just have to accept that they are different and what they are, and not expect them to be like same gender doubles, it is a different game much of the time.
. A good 3.5 lady can stand close to the net and put away most any shot a 4.0 can throw at her. She will be able to return most 4.0 serves. She will be able to lob from her baseline to neutralize the point and set up her partner for an overhead.
You must not have seen too many 3.5 women's matches. At least in my area, 3.5 women lob way better than 3.5 men. That is a go to shot for many of them.Pretty damn good 3,5 woman, I doubt even a 3,5 man can volley and lob that well
At no point did I say generically the 3.5 woman is immune to the 4.0 guy, nor that ratings are equivalent. The success of the 4.5M/3.5W is based on limiting the 3.5W to only those situations where she can be successful. If the 3.5 woman ends up in situations where she is playing against the 4.0 guy on even terms, the strategy is not going to work.The lob part they are better at, but I just think your "3,5 woman is immune to 4,0 guy" is not based on reality. Woman's ratings are not equivalent to men's, and 3,5 dude will have trouble with serve return and even net play against a 4,0 dude
The lob part they are better at, but I just think your "3,5 woman is immune to 4,0 guy" is not based on reality. Woman's ratings are not equivalent to men's, and 3,5 dude will have trouble with serve return and even net play against a 4,0 dude
No, we are not immune to a 4.0 guy at 7.0 or a 4.5 guy in 8.0 ... but we manage.
We are not so stupid as to get into a cross court groundstroke battle with a 4.0M or 4.5M ... we may last 2-3 shots then lose .. but we can block/chip lob or redirect to the 3.0F or 3.5F ... or we last just long enough for our 4.0M or 4.5M partner to involve himself at the net. Oh, and most 4.0M serves might be nice on the 30% of their first serves they get in ... but that 2nd serve ... we can do something with it and are given ample opportunities in a match to prove it.
Serve return ... we tend to do better than the 3.5M because we are not trying to win the point on our ROS like they are... again, like to think we are smarter than that ... we absorb the pace and get it back clean if not lethal
Here are some stats from 18+ 8.0 Nationals this year.
4.5M/3.5W vs 4.0M/4.0W - 23-18
4.5M/3.5W vs 3.5M/4.5W - 4-5
3.5M/4.5W vs 4.0M/4.0W - 3-3
Very small samples for the latter two, hard to draw too much from that, but we see that the unbalanced pair with the higher rated man does better than the 4.0M/4.0W.
At 9.0:
5.0M/4.0W vs 4.5M/4.5W - 19-18
5.0M/4.0W vs 4.0M/5.0W - 8-5
4.0M/5.0W vs 4.5M/4.5W - 6-4
Here unbalanced had a winning record in each scenario.
At 10.0:
5.5M/4.5W vs 5.0M/5.0W - 9-6
5.5M/4.5W vs 4.5M/5.5W - 4-1
4.5M/5.5W vs 5.0M/5.0W - 3-9
Similar here, unbalanced with the higher rated man does a lot better, interestingly unbalanced didn't work for the higher rated woman.
As soon as the male player reaches 4.5 or above, he can dominate the match making it a singles vs doubles game. People always say you just have to hit at the 3.5 lady but trust me, that is fools gold. A good 3.5 lady can stand close to the net and put away most any shot a 4.0 can throw at her. She will be able to return most 4.0 serves. She will be able to lob from her baseline to neutralize the point and set up her partner for an overhead. The 4.5 male can just linger around the T and take on everything but the best shots of the opposing team and will particularly feast on the 4.0 woman on the other side.
Mixed should have a simple rule that no team can consist of a higher rated male player. So a 4.0 male with 4.0 female or a 4.5 female with a 3.5 male in 8.0. I know they allow it because there are more higher rated males, but maybe if you are a 4.5-5.0 male you really shouldn't be out there with 3.5 women.
And yet they did fine against the equally self selecting group of very high end 4.5M/3.5F teams. 23-18 is about a 56% win rate in favor of the unbalanced team. And the 20-12 record from last year's 40+ Mixed Nationals is a 62.5% win rate. Good 4.0s hang just fine with unbalanced teams. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't at about a 60% win rate in favor of the 4.5M/3.5F team nationwide. That would be a slight advantage but not enough to try and get rid of somewhere between a third and half of the 8.0 mixed population (not nearly as many 3.5 women would sign up just to get killed all the time with their partner now being capped at 4.0). To me that shows most the matches are reasonably competitive.You also looking at a self selecting group of very high end 4.0M/F teams. Just the number 4.5M/3.5F teams at Nats tells you a lot more.
You are about to get a second serve, there's a 3.5 female at the net. How many people are gonna go for skin even though it's absolutely the correct play?
And yet they did fine against the equally self selecting group of very high end 4.5M/3.5F teams. 23-18 is about a 56% win rate in favor of the unbalanced team. And the 20-12 record from last year's 40+ Mixed Nationals is a 62.5% win rate. Good 4.0s hang just fine with unbalanced teams. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't at about a 60% win rate in favor of the 4.5M/3.5F team nationwide. That would be a slight advantage but not enough to try and get rid of somewhere between a third and half of the 8.0 mixed population (not nearly as many 3.5 women would sign up just to get killed all the time with their partner now being capped at 4.0). To me that shows most the matches are reasonably competitive.
I don't think anyone said the 4.5M/3.5F were always going to win. You will always have situations where a weaker 4.5M and/or weaker 3.5F play a strong 4.0 pair, or the 4.5M/3.5F don't execute the blueprint that well, and the 4.0s win. But the stats I showed where the unbalanced pair is winning 56-62.5% of the time are pretty consistently showing a trend. Competitive sure, but tilting the way of the unbalanced pair on average.And yet they did fine against the equally self selecting group of very high end 4.5M/3.5F teams. 23-18 is about a 56% win rate in favor of the unbalanced team. And the 20-12 record from last year's 40+ Mixed Nationals is a 62.5% win rate. Good 4.0s hang just fine with unbalanced teams. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't at about a 60% win rate in favor of the 4.5M/3.5F team nationwide. That would be a slight advantage but not enough to try and get rid of somewhere between a third and half of the 8.0 mixed population (not nearly as many 3.5 women would sign up just to get killed all the time with their partner now being capped at 4.0). To me that shows most the matches are reasonably competitive.
In both mixed and men's dubs if I see a weak second serve I absolutely take it DTL. Now I'm not likely to hurt anyone as I'm actually trying to hit the ball in the court not at the person's chest. I know some guys that rip it at the net person intentionally and its a game of dodgeball. If you can get out of the way its going long every time.
I've certainly frightened a couple women but never hurt them but I can certainly see a 4.5 level FH being at a whole different level. Those get me pretty nervous when my partner rolls in a weak second serve to the FH.
If my partner has a weak second serve, then I'm playing back on his second serve. I have never seen 3.5F playback. I think it is partially because she is less likely to hit a decent ground stroke than a decent volley and partially because she is hoping I that I wouldn't swing at her.
That is odd .... I rarely see a 3.5F that DOESN'T move back on a 2nd serve from her partner if that is a weak serve ... most to or slightly behind service line, some to the baseline
No, we are not immune to a 4.0 guy at 7.0 or a 4.5 guy in 8.0 ... but we manage.
We are not so stupid as to get into a cross court groundstroke battle with a 4.0M or 4.5M ... we may last 2-3 shots then lose .. but we can block/chip lob or redirect to the 3.0F or 3.5F ... or we last just long enough for our 4.0M or 4.5M partner to involve himself at the net. Oh, and most 4.0M serves might be nice on the 30% of their first serves they get in ... but that 2nd serve ... we can do something with it and are given ample opportunities in a match to prove it.
Serve return ... we tend to do better than the 3.5M because we are not trying to win the point on our ROS like they are... again, like to think we are smarter than that ... we absorb the pace and get it back clean if not lethal
And the stats I posted say different, that the team with the weakest player actually wins 55-60% of the time. Why? Because they also have the strongest player.My doubles experience is that the side with the weakest player on the court, if there is one, loses.
If a 3.5 woman can handle a 4.0 dude, it would follow that a 4.0 chick could handle a 4.5 dude. So the 4.0 4.0 pairing would not be a disadvantage.
As for your description (which makes 4.0 dudes look pretty weak, and you rather craftty and strong), if it's true, damn, you should be on my team.
My doubles experience is that the side with the weakest player on the court, if there is one, loses.
Yes and I'm saying there isn't a problem with that big enough to disallow players from playing. For example...I don't think anyone said the 4.5M/3.5F were always going to win. You will always have situations where a weaker 4.5M and/or weaker 3.5F play a strong 4.0 pair, or the 4.5M/3.5F don't execute the blueprint that well, and the 4.0s win. But the stats I showed where the unbalanced pair is winning 56-62.5% of the time are pretty consistently showing a trend. Competitive sure, but tilting the way of the unbalanced pair on average.
Around here the 4.5M/ 3.5F dominate, I would say the winning % when this combo goes up against a 4.0/4.0 combo seems like 90%. All the top teams in my league are set up this way. Every single team which is made up of mostly 4.0/4.0 combos is in the bottom half of the standings.
Typically 4.5 M is a teaching pro or ex-college player. The 3.5 F are either self rated or mixed exclusive and are better than many regular 4.0F in leagues.
If either of those numbers are indicative of the national average then I'd think a change is needed. But to say someone shouldn't play because you're only able to beat them 4 or 4.5 out of 10 times is extremely sore-loserish.Southwest...
I just did a quick count of 4.5M/3.5F winning % against 4.0/4.0 combos halfway through this season. 80%+ winning, A little less than what I thought but still pretty significant.
At the end of the day, Jolly is always right.Mixed doubles is a perfectly good social activity ruined by keeping score.
J
This has not been my experience at all. Maybe 3.5 is better in your area, but the 3.5 ladies I come across can't put away much (let alone "most any shot a 4.0 can throw at her) and they have a lot of difficulty with a serve with any kick to it. I'll give you the lobs though, the 3.5 ladies here play a solid moon ball game.
And the stats I posted say different, that the team with the weakest player actually wins 55-60% of the time. Why? Because they also have the strongest player.
So the weird thing for me is that everywhere else, NTRP is used to get matches between players as even as possible.
Except in Mixed, where the system is set up that a 4.5 guy might be playing with or against a 3.5 woman. Makes no sense to me.