A 3 surface WTF??

PMChambers said:
How about
3 surfaces.
2 BH
3 Racquets
2 Strings

Grass + wood + gut+ 1HBH
Clay + modern >95"+ poly + 2HBH
HC + 80-85" + gut + either 1 or 2HBH.
Click to expand...

Lets throw in even more surfaces!

extremetennis03.jpg


142974.jpg


6f27897cb8d35b834de253d358ae076b.jpg
 
Dilexson said:
Can't we just leave WTF alone with Indoors?
This has become a gruesome topic here.
It's a tournament of merit and it should stay just the way it is.
Click to expand...
Nothing can remain the same if it hurts Nadal. That is clearly the rule he follows (and I can’t begrudge him that, although I’m glad his leadership of the players union was limited). It’s sad however to see his fans obsess over it, and worse, to see tournament directors adjust their courts to accommodate it.
 
Having played this sport for 37 years, with 3 of those years being in the challengers and 2 of those years being ranked in the top 250 in the world, I can tell you that this will never happen. The first reason is that none of the players would play the event for the fear of getting injured. Each surface requires different movements, different muscle memories, and different mentalities. The tournament would be boycotted by all 8 players who qualified. The second and most important reason is that The Nitto ATP Finals formerly known as (The Masters, The ATP World Championships, The Masters Cup, and The ATP World Tour Finals) is the most prestigious and important tournament in the world next to the 4 majors (Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open). The tournament has been played in many different parts of the world and has been very successful wherever it has been played, but since 2009 when it found a new home in London, England at the O2 Arena it has never enjoyed as much success! This location is second to none and that includes the glory days of Madison Square Garden when it comes to atmosphere and filling up the arena! These two venues (MSG and the O2 Arena) are the only places to have this huge tournament in my book because first of all it's the indoor season so you have got to play the tournament indoors (2003 and 2004 in Houston was stupid in my opinion), and you have got to have huge electric arenas that have history on their side! Nothing comes close to the O2 Arena and MSG to host the Nitto ATP Finals, and I hope in future years they can start alternating between those two venues every two years or so! I hope I answered your question without being rude and I tried to give reasoning and clarity to why I am firm on this topic. Sometimes fans lose sight of how very important this tournament is in the history of our wonderful sport. It's been here since 1970 when it was called The Masters and I wish it was still called that (there is something about The Masters when you say it that gives the tournament massive prestige although I loved the ATP World Championships and The Masters Cup), and the Nitto ATP Finals isn't to bad I guess, but when you have a tournament with only the top 8 playing for the title that's all the prestige it needs! Actually at one time the three most important and prestigious tournaments in the world were: 1. Wimbledon 2. US Open, and 3. The Masters in that order. Now of course with the huge gaining popularity of the 4 majors the Masters is the 5th biggest tournament in the world and I still classify it as a major tournament and always will! All the greats of the game have fought their hearts out and won this title, or gave everything and came up just short, but they have given it all regardless because of the importance and prestige of this event! Leave it alone and shuffle it between London and New York City every two or three years!
 
Also, the Nitto ATP Finals needs to go back to a best of 5 set final! It's fine to play best of 3 in the round robin stages and even the semifinals, but the ATP must bring back the best of 5 set final! First of all there is a week between the Paris Indoors masters 1000 event and the Nitto ATP Finals, and second of all there is a day off between all the round robin matches so fitness should not be a problem. And lastly, it's the 5th biggest match of the year besides the 4 finals at the majors so lets go out in style and bring back the classic finals that we have seen back in the day. Although, there have been some epic finals since they went to best of 3. In no particular order my top 5:

1. 2009 ATP World Tour Finals: Davydenko defeats Del Potro (3 sets)
2. 2010 ATP World Tour Finals: Federer defeats Nadal (3 sets)
3. 2011 ATP World Tour Finals: Federer defeats Tsonga (3 sets)
4. 2012 ATP World Tour Finals: Djokovic defeats Federer (2 of the most high quality sets of tennis I have ever seen)
5. 2017 Nitto ATP Finals: (Dimitrov defeats Goffin (3 sets)
 
merlinpinpin said:
They should do that at every slam, too:
- day 1: slow HC
- day 2: har-tru
- day 3: indoor carpet
- day 4: red clay
- day 5: fast HC
- day 6: Rebound Ace in extremely hot conditions, so it's super rubbery
- day 7: natural grass
- day 8: wood
- day 9: grainy HC with bad bounce, just for kicks
- day 10: indoor clay
- day 11: ice
- day 12: synthetic grass
- day 13: crushed glass
- day 14: slippery blue clay

This way, we'd have real champions, not these MUGS who all play the same on every surface.
Click to expand...

Came here to say something similar to this. Thanks for saving me the effort.
#13 is pure WIN.
 
justasport said:
Having played this sport for 37 years, with 3 of those years being in the challengers and 2 of those years being ranked in the top 250 in the world, I can tell you that this will never happen. The first reason is that none of the players would play the event for the fear of getting injured. Each surface requires different movements, different muscle memories, and different mentalities. The tournament would be boycotted by all 8 players who qualified. The second and most important reason is that The Nitto ATP Finals formerly known as (The Masters, The ATP World Championships, The Masters Cup, and The ATP World Tour Finals) is the most prestigious and important tournament in the world next to the 4 majors (Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open). The tournament has been played in many different parts of the world and has been very successful wherever it has been played, but since 2009 when it found a new home in London, England at the O2 Arena it has never enjoyed as much success! This location is second to none and that includes the glory days of Madison Square Garden when it comes to atmosphere and filling up the arena! These two venues (MSG and the O2 Arena) are the only places to have this huge tournament in my book because first of all it's the indoor season so you have got to play the tournament indoors (2003 and 2004 in Houston was stupid in my opinion), and you have got to have huge electric arenas that have history on their side! Nothing comes close to the O2 Arena and MSG to host the Nitto ATP Finals, and I hope in future years they can start alternating between those two venues every two years or so! I hope I answered your question without being rude and I tried to give reasoning and clarity to why I am firm on this topic. Sometimes fans lose sight of how very important this tournament is in the history of our wonderful sport. It's been here since 1970 when it was called The Masters and I wish it was still called that (there is something about The Masters when you say it that gives the tournament massive prestige although I loved the ATP World Championships and The Masters Cup), and the Nitto ATP Finals isn't to bad I guess, but when you have a tournament with only the top 8 playing for the title that's all the prestige it needs! Actually at one time the three most important and prestigious tournaments in the world were: 1. Wimbledon 2. US Open, and 3. The Masters in that order. Now of course with the huge gaining popularity of the 4 majors the Masters is the 5th biggest tournament in the world and I still classify it as a major tournament and always will! All the greats of the game have fought their hearts out and won this title, or gave everything and came up just short, but they have given it all regardless because of the importance and prestige of this event! Leave it alone and shuffle it between London and New York City every two or three years!
Click to expand...

You are talking too much sense for this forum in general and the VB in particular.
 
justasport said:
Having played this sport for 37 years, with 3 of those years being in the challengers and 2 of those years being ranked in the top 250 in the world, I can tell you that this will never happen. The first reason is that none of the players would play the event for the fear of getting injured. Each surface requires different movements, different muscle memories, and different mentalities. The tournament would be boycotted by all 8 players who qualified. The second and most important reason is that The Nitto ATP Finals formerly known as (The Masters, The ATP World Championships, The Masters Cup, and The ATP World Tour Finals) is the most prestigious and important tournament in the world next to the 4 majors (Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open). The tournament has been played in many different parts of the world and has been very successful wherever it has been played, but since 2009 when it found a new home in London, England at the O2 Arena it has never enjoyed as much success! This location is second to none and that includes the glory days of Madison Square Garden when it comes to atmosphere and filling up the arena! These two venues (MSG and the O2 Arena) are the only places to have this huge tournament in my book because first of all it's the indoor season so you have got to play the tournament indoors (2003 and 2004 in Houston was stupid in my opinion), and you have got to have huge electric arenas that have history on their side! Nothing comes close to the O2 Arena and MSG to host the Nitto ATP Finals, and I hope in future years they can start alternating between those two venues every two years or so! I hope I answered your question without being rude and I tried to give reasoning and clarity to why I am firm on this topic. Sometimes fans lose sight of how very important this tournament is in the history of our wonderful sport. It's been here since 1970 when it was called The Masters and I wish it was still called that (there is something about The Masters when you say it that gives the tournament massive prestige although I loved the ATP World Championships and The Masters Cup), and the Nitto ATP Finals isn't to bad I guess, but when you have a tournament with only the top 8 playing for the title that's all the prestige it needs! Actually at one time the three most important and prestigious tournaments in the world were: 1. Wimbledon 2. US Open, and 3. The Masters in that order. Now of course with the huge gaining popularity of the 4 majors the Masters is the 5th biggest tournament in the world and I still classify it as a major tournament and always will! All the greats of the game have fought their hearts out and won this title, or gave everything and came up just short, but they have given it all regardless because of the importance and prestige of this event! Leave it alone and shuffle it between London and New York City every two or three years!
Click to expand...


Careful, they're gonna go "video or it didn't happen" on you. ;)
 
Also this idea is awful. Different surfaces in the one event? What? :D
 
Why stop there? Why not change the surface every 3 games? Seems like a good idea. After it catches on we can introduce a grass M1000 somewhere between MC and RG.
 
Just like RG is a clay event and Wimbledon is a grass event, I want to see WTF remain as an indoor event to keep the indoor season relevant on tour.
 
Dilexson said:
Can't we just leave WTF alone with Indoors?
This has become a gruesome topic here.
It's a tournament of merit and it should stay just the way it is.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Sampras never ask French Open to change their surface to hard court or grass, so why other can ask to change WTF to clay? Some players think they are entitled to everything. Spoiled.
 
merlinpinpin said:
They should do that at every slam, too:
- day 1: slow HC
- day 2: har-tru
- day 3: indoor carpet
- day 4: red clay
- day 5: fast HC
- day 6: Rebound Ace in extremely hot conditions, so it's super rubbery
- day 7: natural grass
- day 8: wood
- day 9: grainy HC with bad bounce, just for kicks
- day 10: indoor clay
- day 11: ice
- day 12: synthetic grass
- day 13: crushed glass
- day 14: slippery blue clay

This way, we'd have real champions, not these MUGS who all play the same on every surface.
Click to expand...

Folks, we have a winner! The best post of the year award!
 
boredone3456 said:
Having a venue that has all 3 kinds of courts on site would costly as no such venue currently exists. Plus, the WTF has had like 15 different host cities in its history so far as it has rotated around the world...you'd have to decide a permanent location for the tournament unless you plan to shell out the money every few years to build a venue to hold all 3 types of courts.
Click to expand...

Agree.

Additionally, the players would never agree to it as there would be fear of injuries. Some people have obviously never stepped on a tennis court. Keep it indoor, on fast indoor hard or carpet, and that’s it.
 
It's an interesting suggestion but the whole idea of the round robin tournament is that it finds the absolute best player overall by testing the competitors against each opponent. If you were to have them play the round robin matches on each of the three surfaces, it would end up being unfair. In group one, you have player A, B, and C being drawn against Nadal. One of these players has to play him on Clay, one gets the more manageable task of playing him on hard, and the other gets the relatively easy match on grass.

One of them will be hugely disadvantaged over the others. The only way you could the surface changes fairly would be to make every player in the groups face each other on each of the surfaces. That's 9 round robin matches. The WTF would take two weeks for the round robin stage alone.
 
How about a series with mini tournaments after each major part of the season?

A HC mini tournament between the best 4 just before the clay court season, a clay mini tournament after RG, a grass mini tournament after Wimbledon and a final HC tournament, but with 8 players, at the season end.

Obligatory participation for the top 4 players for the first three mini tournaments and for the top 8 for the final tournament.

The wins of the mini tournaments hold less weight than the final tournament.

ATP recognized matches and tournament wins with some ranking points on the line (250? for the first 3 tournaments in a winner takes it all and 1250 for the final tournament with the current WTF rules).

Final tournament could be on carpet, wood, glass, hot coals, whathaveyou.

:cool:
 
Last edited:
Shank Volley said:
It's an interesting suggestion but the whole idea of the round robin tournament is that it finds the absolute best player overall by testing the competitors against each opponent. If you were to have them play the round robin matches on each of the three surfaces, it would end up being unfair. In group one, you have player A, B, and C being drawn against Nadal. One of these players has to play him on Clay, one gets the more manageable task of playing him on hard, and the other gets the relatively easy match on grass.

One of them will be hugely disadvantaged over the others. The only way you could the surface changes fairly would be to make every player in the groups face each other on each of the surfaces. That's 9 round robin matches. The WTF would take two weeks for the round robin stage alone.
Click to expand...

FIrst, it's rather shortsighted to focus on the issue of Nadal, as he'll be gone in the next few years anyway. Second, if the concern is a player having to play another player on a surface the first player excels on, then any court used for the tournament will favor some players over others. By using all three surfaces, you diffuse and diminish that advantage.
 
Idea doesn't make any sense, and would be quite problematic to organize. The WTF is the culmination of the indoor hard season in Europe, the current surface & setting do make sense.
 
Roddick85 said:
The WTF is the culmination of the indoor hard season in Europe, the current surface & setting do make sense
Click to expand...

last time I looked, the WTF wasn't contested between the 8 players who did best during "the indoor hard season in Europe." Isn't it based on performance for the entire year on all surfaces??
 
ollinger said:
FIrst, it's rather shortsighted to focus on the issue of Nadal, as he'll be gone in the next few years anyway. Second, if the concern is a player having to play another player on a surface the first player excels on, then any court used for the tournament will favor some players over others. By using all three surfaces, you diffuse and diminish that advantage.
Click to expand...

Forcing some players to play opponents on surfaces they specialise in while others get to face them on their weakest surface is entirely unfair and would introduce a huge amount of luck into the tournament. I can't explain it any simpler that I already have. I'd rather play Carreno Busta on grass than clay, one player gets to play him on grass, the other plays him on clay. Does one of those players receive a huge advantage? If yes, then it's a bad idea.
 
Shank Volley said:
Forcing some players to play opponents on surfaces they specialise in while others get to face them on their weakest surface is entirely unfair and would introduce a huge amount of luck
Click to expand...

.....and that's less equitable than playing the entire thing on a surface that one player may particularly specialize in, while others don't??? There's no such thing as a tournament played on a surface that everyone is equally adept on; a tournament played on all surfaces mitigates that advantage.
 
ollinger said:
.....and that's less equitable than playing the entire thing on a surface that one player may particularly specialize in, while others don't??? There's no such thing as a tournament played on a surface that everyone is equally adept on; a tournament played on all surfaces mitigates that advantage.
Click to expand...
So we'll wait for RG, Wimby, USO and AO to be played on different surfaces during the two weeks. It'd only be fair that all the key tournaments operate under the same principles
 
ollinger said:
.....and that's less equitable than playing the entire thing on a surface that one player may particularly specialize in, while others don't??? There's no such thing as a tournament played on a surface that everyone is equally adept on; a tournament played on all surfaces mitigates that advantage.
Click to expand...

Hence it being played on the most common (by far) surface in the tour. The surface that offers the most ranking points, and so has the highest likelihood of being a surface that all 8 of the players are comfortable on.
 
merlinpinpin said:
They should do that at every slam, too:
- day 1: slow HC
- day 2: har-tru
- day 3: indoor carpet
- day 4: red clay
- day 5: fast HC
- day 6: Rebound Ace in extremely hot conditions, so it's super rubbery
- day 7: natural grass
- day 8: wood
- day 9: grainy HC with bad bounce, just for kicks
- day 10: indoor clay
- day 11: ice
- day 12: synthetic grass
- day 13: crushed glass
- day 14: slippery blue clay

This way, we'd have real champions, not these MUGS who all play the same on every surface.
Click to expand...

‘slippery blue clay’ priceless LMAO

That would teach those primadonnas.
 
The WTF is a year-end quasi-exhibition on a particular surface...nothing more, nothing less. It has its own character and is not meant to compete with any slam for importance, or any other tournament for that matter. I personally wish they'd do away with it and provide players with more rest.
 
lmao at some of the posts. Honestly, if I were ollinger, at this stage I'd make like the river Iser, and roll rapidly :p
 
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