A 4.5 sandbagger in 3.5 city league - What would you do?

[M_k 87]

I was looking up the opponents for our first city league match this weekend, and I see they have at least two players with 4.5 NTRP ratings playing in the 2018 USTA 18+ season. The division our team competes in is technically for 3.0-3.5. However, since the league doesn't use official NTRP ratings to calculate movements up/down, most players end up being in the 3.5-low 4.0 range.

I'm OK getting smacked around the court by a better player as it's part of the learning experience. But I'm still annoyed at the level of shamelessness it takes to try get 4.5 players into a division so far below their level.

What would you all do?

Give it your best anyway? How much could be learned from such a big disparity? To what degree would you expect a 3.5 to even be able to handle a 4.5's shots/serves?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

similar if there were 5.5s sandbagging in 4.5, i’d thank for the opportunity to play against such a high level,... without having to pay for a lesson.

 

[OrangePower]

I'm not familiar with your league so have no idea what recourse is available to you.

However I would definitely say something to the players themselves, along the lines of "I see you're a USTA 4.5, why would you want to beat up on us 3.5's in this league - where's the fun in that?"
I'd say this in a friendly manner rather than in a confrontational tone. It won't do any good in the short run but perhaps over the long run if they hear it from enough people it might shame / dissuade them. There is also the chance that they have no idea but were roped into playing by an unscrupulous captain.

Other than that, give it your best shot. Most likely you are not going to learn much, it will not be competitive, and no-one will actually enjoy it - sorry.

 

[OrangePower]

similar if there were 5.5s sandbagging in 4.5, i’d thank for the opportunity to play against such a high level,... without having to pay for a lesson.

I think that's too large a gap to be useful, unless the 5.5 is being cooperative.
I've played a 5.5 in a tournament, lost 0 & 0, and got absolutely nothing out of it.
(Me - TR around 4.35. Him - TR around 5.4.)

 

[J011yroger]

I think that's too large a gap to be useful, unless the 5.5 is being cooperative.
I've played a 5.5 in a tournament, lost 0 & 0, and got absolutely nothing out of it.
(Me - TR around 4.35. Him - TR around 5.4.)

I've never seen anyone with a TR that high.

J

 

[M_k 87]

similar if there were 5.5s sandbagging in 4.5, i’d thank for the opportunity to play against such a high level,... without having to pay for a lesson.

Thanks for your input. True that it never hurts to see what much better players can do. Would've been nicer if it wasn't a 7 AM Sunday match though... Since it'll take what, 30-45 min, I could just schedule a hitting session later in the morning with friends.

 

[M_k 87]

I'm not familiar with your league so have no idea what recourse is available to you.

However I would definitely say something to the players themselves, along the lines of "I see you're a USTA 4.5, why would you want to beat up on us 3.5's in this league - where's the fun in that?"
I'd say this in a friendly manner rather than in a confrontational tone. It won't do any good in the short run but perhaps over the long run if they hear it from enough people it might shame / dissuade them. There is also the chance that they have no idea but were roped into playing by an unscrupulous captain.

Other than that, give it your best shot. Most likely you are not going to learn much, it will not be competitive, and no-one will actually enjoy it - sorry.

These are great ideas, thank you. Definitely important to remember that it's rec tennis and not something to get confrontational about.

I think that's too large a gap to be useful, unless the 5.5 is being cooperative.
I've played a 5.5 in a tournament, lost 0 & 0, and got absolutely nothing out of it.
(Me - TR around 4.35. Him - TR around 5.4.)

This is what I'm worried about. One of my hitting partners formerly played a bit of 4.5 USTA and also the higher division in our city league that these 4.5s should be in. He's slowed down since then (USTA 4.0; doesn't play city league), but when his game is "on", I don't get many balls back. The biggest benefit when hitting with him is that he'll stop and give me great input on how to fix problems with my game. I bought a ball hopper and he runs me through some of the drills they do on the HS team that he helps coach. Maybe my ego will be satisfied if I can steal a game

 

[OnTheLine]

I've never seen anyone with a TR that high.

J

Just looked it up ... here are the 4 highest in country according to TR ... but not many matches, all with 5.5C ratings ...

1 XXX Little Rock, AR 2 2 0 100.0 5.4939
2 XXX Saint Augustine, FL 1 0 1 0.0 5.3310
3 XXX Raleigh, NC 1 1 0 100.0 5.2780
4 XXX San Francisco, CA 7 7 0 100.0 5.2699

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

The biggest benefit when hitting with him is that he'll stop and give me great input on how to fix problems with my game.

Who knows: maybe your opponents will do the same?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Thanks for your input. True that it never hurts to see what much better players can do. Would've been nicer if it wasn't a 7 AM Sunday match though... Since it'll take what, 30-45 min, I could just schedule a hitting session later in the morning with friends.

if i were a 4.5 playing in a 3.0-3.5 league at 7a on a sunday, i'm gonna wanna hit more than 45 minutes... so just ask nice, and i'm sure the guy would be willing to play another set or hit, etc...
if it were me, i'd want to hit afterwards, and i'd probably focus on hitting only to your strong wing.
[edit] make sure to ask him "top 3 things he thinks you should work on"

 

[J011yroger]

Just looked it up ... here are the 4 highest in country according to TR ... but not many matches, all with 5.5C ratings ...

1 XXX Little Rock, AR 2 2 0 100.0 5.4939
2 XXX Saint Augustine, FL 1 0 1 0.0 5.3310
3 XXX Raleigh, NC 1 1 0 100.0 5.2780
4 XXX San Francisco, CA 7 7 0 100.0 5.2699

I knew that smell was familiar.

J

 

[OnTheLine]

I think that's too large a gap to be useful, unless the 5.5 is being cooperative.
I've played a 5.5 in a tournament, lost 0 & 0, and got absolutely nothing out of it.
(Me - TR around 4.35. Him - TR around 5.4.)

I agree. We have a ladies' saturday scrambler that I love through the summer. runs 10 courts of dubs ... organizers pay attention to level, but don't turn people away if there is space. It is supposed to be for 3.0-4.0 players with courts basically separated by level, but ocassionally a 2.5 or a gang of them show up. I cannot be on a court with 2.5s, not worth my time or theirs. The only lesson they are going to get from me is how to get out of the way. I start playing keep away from the 2.5, just so that the ball comes back at least once.

Guessing it is less futile for a 4.5 and a 5.5, at least in dubs.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Guessing it is less futile for a 4.5 and a 5.5, at least in dubs.

I wouldn't know: I [4.5] have never had the good fortune of being able to play a 5.5. Kinda rare to find any, outside the Open bracket.

 

[OrangePower]

I've never seen anyone with a TR that high.

J

This was some time back. This particular guy is currently rated "only" 5.2. This is in Norcal SF district. Perhaps he's dropped due to playing 'lesser' competition, or else maybe TR has had a revamp since then, who knows...

 

[schmke]

I've never seen anyone with a TR that high.

J

My ratings have a few players over 5.50, and double digits at 5.40 or higher.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

if i were a 4.5 playing in a 3.0-3.5 league at 7a on a sunday, i'm gonna wanna hit more than 45 minutes...

If I were a 4.5 playing a 3.0-3.5 league at 7am on a Sunday... I am going to seriously reevaluate my life and take a long look at what I’m actually doing here.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

If I were a 4.5 playing a 3.0-3.5 league at 7am on a Sunday... I am going to seriously reevaluate my life and take a long look at what I’m actually doing here.

Maybe they did re-evaluate and concluded that beating up on players 2-3 levels below them would be a way to justify their existence.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

If I were a 4.5 playing a 3.0-3.5 league at 7am on a Sunday... I am going to seriously reevaluate my life and take a long look at what I’m actually doing here.

hmm... circumstances where i might be in this scenario
* winter indoor court is cheap/free
* cute girl (if i was single)
* new in town, want to meet people (ie. did this in montreal, when visiting... desperate to hit i joined a "4.0" league... it was really 3.0-3.5)
* work on the left hand

 

[MisterP]

similar if there were 5.5s sandbagging in 4.5, i’d thank for the opportunity to play against such a high level,... without having to pay for a lesson.

Ditto.

But definitely throw in some underhand serves. And a LOT of junky moonballs. They want to play 3.0-3.5? o-BLIGE them.

 

[Booger]

Take your medicine and thank him for the lesson. Realistically, there isn't much you can do.

 

[travlerajm]

Just looked it up ... here are the 4 highest in country according to TR ... but not many matches, all with 5.5C ratings ...

1 XXX Little Rock, AR 2 2 0 100.0 5.4939
2 XXX Saint Augustine, FL 1 0 1 0.0 5.3310
3 XXX Raleigh, NC 1 1 0 100.0 5.2780
4 XXX San Francisco, CA 7 7 0 100.0 5.2699

Did someone just get caught stretching the story a bit? Gotta be careful with public posts on the internet.

 

[OnTheLine]

Did someone just get caught stretching the story a bit? Gotta be careful with public posts on the internet.

Pardon? ... removed all names and this is readily available ... just the search on TR for highest ranked 5.5Cs in the country

 

[travlerajm]

Pardon? ... removed all names and this is readily available ... just the search on TR for highest ranked 5.5Cs in the country

I just meant that your sleuthing suggests the 5.4 might have been an exaggeration.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

It is liberating going into a match you know you will lose.
Use the opportunity to just enjoy yourself.

No 4.5 got to 4.5 by hitting with 3.5 players. Ever.
In fact, this is a huge reason why people never advance for decades.
Whatever you're doing at X will not work at X+1. (except consistency, I suppose)

If you truly want your answer, just ask the guy after the match.
But ask very nicely, not in an attacking manner.

"Sorry I wasn't more of a match, you hit like a 4.5, etc
You're amazing, how did you end up here?
Are you coming back from an injury?"

I am curious what the real story is.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

It is liberating going into a match you know you will lose.
Use the opportunity to just enjoy yourself.

No 4.5 got to 4.5 by hitting with 3.5 players. Ever.
In fact, this is a huge reason why people never advance for decades.
Whatever you're doing at X will not work at X+1. (except consistency, I suppose)

If you truly want your answer, just ask the guy after the match.
But ask very nicely, not in an attacking manner.

"Sorry I wasn't more of a match, you hit like a 4.5, etc
You're amazing, how did you end up here?
Are you coming back from an injury?"

I am curious what the real story is.

as a 4.0 fighting to get bumped, I practiced a lot with 3.5d especially pushers. need to build my confidence putting away no pace sitters.

3.5 bashers (miss every 3rd ball) on the other hand are a waste of time

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

as a 4.0 fighting to get bumped, I practiced a lot with 3.5d especially pushers. need to build my confidence putting away no pace sitters.

Playing against those lower forces one to be accurate on those "easy" putaways. If I slip up on my concentration, I could easily find myself making too many UEs.

 

[OrangePower]

I just meant that your sleuthing suggests the 5.4 might have been an exaggeration.

Dude was a 5.4 according to TR about 6 months ago. He's a 5.2 now. TR isn't exactly rock stable - they have had several major ratings recalculations / shifts over time.
Whether you believe me or not is no skin off my nose, but gotta be careful with public posts on the internet calling someone a liar.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Dude was a 5.4 according to TR about 6 months ago. He's a 5.2 now. TR isn't exactly rock stable - they have had several major ratings recalculations / shifts over time.
Whether you believe me or not is no skin off my nose, but gotta be careful with public posts on the internet calling someone a liar.

A 20 point swing is completely understandable on TR where one's rating might move 5-10 points without even playing additional matches.

Also, whether he was 5.2 or 5.4, that's so much better than me that it wouldn't matter at all: I'm still going to be carbo loading that day.

 

[travlerajm]

Dude was a 5.4 according to TR about 6 months ago. He's a 5.2 now. TR isn't exactly rock stable - they have had several major ratings recalculations / shifts over time.
Whether you believe me or not is no skin off my nose, but gotta be careful with public posts on the internet calling someone a liar.

My bad. I believe you. The reason I believe your story about a jump in TR is that a few months ago TR had me as below 4.0 and eligible for appeal-down, but then my rating suddenly jumped for no reason to its current 4.3 during a time I was idle.

 

[OrangePower]

A 20 point swing is completely understandable on TR where one's rating might move 5-10 points without even playing additional matches.

Also, whether he was 5.2 or 5.4, that's so much better than me that it wouldn't matter at all: I'm still going to be carbo loading that day.

Yeah, for me the distinction between facing a 5.2 versus facing a 5.4 is kinda like this...

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

as a 4.0 fighting to get bumped, I practiced a lot with 3.5d especially pushers. need to build my confidence putting away no pace sitters.
3.5 bashers (miss every 3rd ball) on the other hand are a waste of time

For sure.

My main point was that this guy's 4.5 is already a 4.5...
and he got there by beating 4.0 players. He's already played above this.
So, there is a very good reason he 's playing down to 3.0/3.5
I would just ask him.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Yeah, for me the distinction between facing a 5.2 versus facing a 5.4 is kinda like this...

Sticking with the carb theme, it would be the difference between a large bagel and an extra large bagel.

 

[Ronaldo]

My friends/teammates will take him behind the railroad tracks and convince him to re-think his decision while he walks straight. Lebron approved

 

[Erlang]

Just looked it up ... here are the 4 highest in country according to TR ... but not many matches, all with 5.5C ratings ...

1 XXX Little Rock, AR 2 2 0 100.0 5.4939
2 XXX Saint Augustine, FL 1 0 1 0.0 5.3310
3 XXX Raleigh, NC 1 1 0 100.0 5.2780
4 XXX San Francisco, CA 7 7 0 100.0 5.2699

We have a 6.0C here in Denver with a 5.51 estimated dynamic rating on TR

 

[TennisCJC]

If you league has a process to report sandbaggers, then report the 4.5.

I like playing better players, but there really is no excuse for someone with a recent valid 4.5 usta rating signing up in a 3.0-3.5 level league assuming the league states the level clearly.

I've heard all kinds of excuses for people playing down.
1. I had a shoulder injury - after the guy just went 7-0 in league play bad shoulder and all
2. I am new to town and didn't know if 4.5 in my old area was better than 4.0 in my new town. What?
3. I haven't played USTA in a couple of years. But, you are still practicing and you know you're game hasn't declined.

The most common reason people play down it to win. And, that sucks.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

2. I am new to town and didn't know if 4.5 in my old area was better than 4.0 in my new town.

Actually, this is legit and a pretty common situation. Particularly if you are moving from a smaller metro to a larger one. The levels are not calibrated that well, despite what people say.

 

[Ronaldo]

Actually, this is legit and a pretty common situation. Particularly if you are moving from a smaller metro to a larger one. The levels are not calibrated that well, despite what people say.

Or there are few players at your level. May need to play down

 

[OrangePower]

Actually, this is legit and a pretty common situation. Particularly if you are moving from a smaller metro to a larger one. The levels are not calibrated that well, despite what people say.

When I eventually retire I will be moving from a large metro area with a lot of tennis opportunities, to a smaller town where tennis options are much more limited. Basically there is no 4.5 league.
Maybe by then I will get bumped down anyway via natural decline. But otherwise I will either have to find a way to become eligible at 4.0, or else no USTA play for me.

 

[TennisCJC]

Actually, this is legit and a pretty common situation. Particularly if you are moving from a smaller metro to a larger one. The levels are not calibrated that well, despite what people say.

Personally, I've seen it abused to an absurd level. New guy from another city signs up for a lower level and then proceeds to go 7-0 without the loss of a set all season. His USTA level was 4.5 and he signed up for an internet singles flex league at 4.0.