A brand new KPS 88 & A Brand New Pro staff St. Vincent

sureshs said:
NBMJ is correct. This matter has been debated for ever in the Tips section and it gets ugly. Some call it wrist snap and some call it pronation and each side holds its own.

As usual, I rely on real tennis coaches rather than recreational players.
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No, he is utterly incorrect, and providing incredibly horrible advice. Additionally, just because he "says he is a teaching pro" doesn't mean he is one. Furthermore, even if he is one, doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about.

Here is a post from John Yandell regarding this issue:

JohnYandell said:
I think what a top player says is always interesting but usually indicates a "feel" that he or she has and not a closely studied technical viewpoint.

It's incorrect to say that the wrist doesn't move on the serve or on the forehand. The questions are: when does it move and why and how.

Basically hundreds or actually thousands of video examples show that the role is overwhelmingly passive and a function of the other forces driving the strokes.


If a good player wants to believe that he "snaps" and has that "feel" then it's hard to say he shouldn't--if the video shows that his arm and racket are going through the same positions as other elite performers.

The problem is usually with lower level players who try to make these movements "happen" through conscious muscle contractions. This is the problem with a term like "snap the wrist." If you believe the wrist "snaps" then you may also believe you have to make it snap.

Rod Cross calculated that the force you can generate in this fashion is far less than the force of the larger rotational movements that really drive the stroke and cause wrist movement to occur when and if it does.

You can find plenty of examples of the wrist staying 90 degrees plus to the forearm after contact on the forehand, and even moving further into the laid back position after contact. You wouldn't see that if the players were "snapping" in the way most people think of it.

On the serve, you see the arm and racket rotating from the shoulder counterclockwise as a unit moving thru and after the hit. If the wrist breaks past neutral, which it often doesn't, this occurs due to relaxation, gravity and/or the relative speeds of the racket head and hands well after contact.
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Here is a video of Sampras. Clearly shows his wrist is not snapping. rather, (as I said, not NBMJ) it is a pronation of the arm.

http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras02.htm
 
stormholloway said:
Yeah, you mean the 'cobra serve'? It's crap.
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No I am not talking about the Cobra serve, which is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUp2zILDEYI

and uses the word snap several times.

(Dial Jones:
Dial Jones
Director of Tennis, Ritz Carlton Marina Del Rey, CA
Owner Operator, Dial Jones Tennis Program, Ocean ViewPark, Santa Monica, CA
USPTA pro 1

25 years teaching and coaching exprerience specializing in not only stroke, footwork, and competitive game development at both the social and tournament level, but also known to increase student's sense of confidence and enjoyment in both their tennis game and life beyond the court. Professional tennis career included competing in U.S., Australian and New Zealand Opens, including significant wins nationally and internationaly. NCAA division 1 college tennis career at University of Texas experienced at coaching and teaching the beginner to professional level.
Has passion for teaching tennis to all ages and levels.)


I am talking about another segment by someone else which was only about the wrist snap.
 
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Why would I believe 3.5 players instead of a USPTA certified tennis pro and an advanced player who lays out his teaching on national TV for everyone to see rather than accumulating posts here?

BTW, I have attended a Vic Braden clinic, and he is a horrible player. He also uses an obscenely big racquet. Does not mean he is a bad teacher. But he is a bad player.
 
sureshs said:
Why would I believe 3.5 players instead of a USPTA certified tennis pro and an advanced player who lays out his teaching on national TV for everyone to see rather than accumulating posts here?

BTW, I have attended a Vic Braden clinic, and he is a horrible player. He also uses an obscenely big racquet. Does not mean he is a bad teacher. But he is a bad player.
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here is video shot at 4000 frames per second.

http://www.look-learn.de/e_index.htm

click on "superslow motion", and "trailer" links. Not one video shows a wrist snap (either in the FH or Serve).
 
The wrist snap or pronation or whatever you want to call it will happen effortlessly for Sampras and will appear like a natural consequence of the racquet's inertia. For recreational players, it requires conscious effort till it becomes a smooth motion inscribed in muscle memory (or in the brain, as your friend Braden says muscles have no memory). I started incorporating a little conscious snap and was able to serve faster (OK a lttle slower than Sampras) and keep the ball in. These days, I will suddenly "wake up" during a game and ask myself "did I snap my wrist" and I won't know the answer. But doing it consciously helped me and still helps me when my serves start flying out one fine day.
 
sureshs said:
The wrist snap or pronation or whatever you want to call it will happen effortlessly for Sampras and will appear like a natural consequence of the racquet's inertia. For recreational players, it requires conscious effort till it becomes a smooth motion inscribed in muscle memory (or in the brain, as your friend Braden says muscles have no memory). I started incorporating a little conscious snap and was able to serve faster (OK a lttle slower than Sampras) and keep the ball in. These days, I will suddenly "wake up" during a game and ask myself "did I snap my wrist" and I won't know the answer. But doing it consciously helped me and still helps me when my serves start flying out one fine day.
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Baseball pitching coaches would be astonished to hear that people debate whether or not to snap the wrist on throwing motions - http://books.google.com/books?id=_L...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result is just one of many examples showing it as an obvious key to more velocity.
 
sureshs said:
The wrist snap or pronation or whatever you want to call it will happen effortlessly for Sampras and will appear like a natural consequence of the racquet's inertia. For recreational players, it requires conscious effort till it becomes a smooth motion inscribed in muscle memory (or in the brain, as your friend Braden says muscles have no memory). I started incorporating a little conscious snap and was able to serve faster (OK a lttle slower than Sampras) and keep the ball in. These days, I will suddenly "wake up" during a game and ask myself "did I snap my wrist" and I won't know the answer. But doing it consciously helped me and still helps me when my serves start flying out one fine day.
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The 'wrist snap' is always an effortless consequence of inertia. I don't care what USPTA pro says you should actively pronate your wrist. They're wrong. Common sense can be used in this situation.
 
jackcrawford said:
Baseball pitching coaches would be astonished to hear that people debate whether or not to snap the wrist on throwing motions - http://books.google.com/books?id=_L...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result is just one of many examples showing it as an obvious key to more velocity.
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I completely agree. I think some posters are just trying to bash NBMJ, when for once he is saying sensible things.

In any throwing motion there will be a wrist snap to bring the ball down.

I have actually been able to improve my serve not by practicing serves the whole time, I tried that and the results were meager, but what proved to be far more effective was throwing balls against the wall at about a distance of 2 or 3 meters, making it hit the ground about 10 or 20 centimeters before it hit the wall, so basically it rebounds into my hand. Take a ball and start doing so, you can easily do up to 200 or 300 times in about 20 minutes and it increases and improves you timing between shoulder rotation and wrist movement.

Whether that is conscious or not is just a question of semantics. No movement is totally inconscious.

When I started serving after having developed muscle/brain memory with this motion, there was a noticeable improvement, certainly coupled with the necessary leg bend.

I am surprised to see people talk like this and pretend that a big server like Sampras did not use pronation on his serve, when he obviously did and there are thousand of videos that will prove this point.

Off course, it is not as if one would hit a serve with an extended arm and then just snap the wrist. All movements inside the larger serve motion are coupled, so you cannot really isolate them from their context but it is obvious that the wrist does move, if not it were to stay in the same position throughout the whole serve motion. That means that there is pronation, thus wrist snap.
 
You simply don't have a clue what you're talking about. The wrist snap doesn't bring the ball down. You're not supposed to hit down on the ball on the serve. You're essentially "throwing up". The racquet has no choice but to hit down because it reaches it's maximum length. It's centripetal/centrifugal force.

Anything the wrist does is simply a reaction to what the racquet is doing. How do you think a whip works? When people use a whip do you think they grap the end if it and flick it? No, they whip from the handle and the leather does the rest. It's the same concept.

I'm baffled that people don't understand this.
 
I am baffled that people start discussions that make no sense at all, pretending that the wrist doesn't move during serve, that things like pronation, which have been analyzed and studied a thousand times, do not exist.

Where do you think you get your kick from on serves?

Oh and BTW if the ball isn't hit down on a serve, how do you bring it from about 8 feet high to land before the serve line on the other side, that is ground level (0 feet)?

Now of course you do not always hit on top of the ball, but rather on the back or on the side, but on the whole you are bringing it down.
 
Every single one of those questions was addressed specifically in my previous post. Let me help you, because you seem to be having trouble:

A) I never once said the wrist doesn't move on serve. In fact, I stated just the opposite, repeatedly.
B) Kick has more to do with delaying the pronation of the shoulder than anything else. It also has a lot to do with putting the racquet face under the ball. You could hit a wicked kick serve with zero wrist movement at all.
C) Of course you're bringing it down. Did I dispute the fact that the ball starts high and moves down? No. My point is the body's energy is directed upward. The racquet turns over on its own due to centrifugal force. Tie a ball to a string and swing it around. Maybe that will help.
 
matchmaker said:
I completely agree. I think some posters are just trying to bash NBMJ, when for once he is saying sensible things.

.
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for once? hahahahahaha...nice post there bud.....defending me and joining in the bashfest at the same time....hahahahahahahahahaha
 
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matchmaker said:
I completely agree. I think some posters are just trying to bash NBMJ, when for once he is saying sensible things.
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Right. :roll: John Yandell, who has studied thousands of high speed videos, and is an expert on the subject is trying to "bash" a supposed coach. Anyone with eyes could clearly see there is no "snap" in the wrist, when looking at these videos.


matchmaker said:
Oh and BTW if the ball isn't hit down on a serve, how do you bring it from about 8 feet high to land before the serve line on the other side, that is ground level (0 feet)?
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Uhmmm, have you ever heard of this little thing called "gravity"?????

Gravity, along with the wind resistance is what brings the ball down. Remember, we are not living in outer space.

Storm is right on the money. If you don't want to, or incapable of getting it, why don't you provide video evidence of one pro who is "purposely snapping their wrist", rather than spewing all this non-sense.
 
matchmaker said:
I am baffled that people start discussions that make no sense at all, pretending that the wrist doesn't move during serve, that things like pronation, which have been analyzed and studied a thousand times, do not exist.

Where do you think you get your kick from on serves?

Oh and BTW if the ball isn't hit down on a serve, how do you bring it from about 8 feet high to land before the serve line on the other side, that is ground level (0 feet)?

Now of course you do not always hit on top of the ball, but rather on the back or on the side, but on the whole you are bringing it down.
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That is true. It has been debated ad nauseum in the Tips section. There may be a few cases in the second serve when a club player will really hit only upwards and drag and gravity bring it down - you must have seen some lower player who sort of spins the ball high up and it descends slowly close to the net. At higher levels, lots of forward momentum has to be applied and the wrist pronation or snap adds the downwards motion which prevents the ball from flying out.

Now NBMJ pointed out that there is a question of whether wrist snap occurs before or after impact. This is similar to the question raised by every beginner about why follow thru is needed when the ball doesn't know what you are doing after impact. The reason is that if you don't follow thru, you are stopping suddenly and it affects the speed just before impact. There could be such a thing about the snap where the snap prevents the previous part of the motion from causing the ball to fly out. But I think the main effect happens before impact too.
 
sureshs said:
That is true. It has been debated ad nauseum in the Tips section.
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Correct, and each and every time it has been discussed>>> posters who "think" there is a wrist snap are always wrong. Again, provide video evidence of one pro who "snaps their wrist" on the serve. Just one.


sureshs said:
There may be a few cases in the second serve when a club player will really hit only upwards and drag and gravity bring it down -
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Incorrect. Every pro in the world right now "hits only upwards" (not just club players) on the serve.

Are you saying when **YOU** serve >>>>> you toss the ball below your head, then swing downwards, and somehow the ball travles back up into the sky, over the net, and then lands in the service box???

Like storm said, >> "you have no clue what you are talking about".
 
http://tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/serve/serve.aspx?id=46380

The second last pic shows Murray hitting down on the ball (perpendicular to string face points below the horizon). That is the only definition of hitting down on the ball. At impact, where does the perpendicular to the string face point? BTW, this is not universal. You can hit up on the ball and drag and gravity will bring it down if there is top spin. But sometimes pros hit down on the ball. Most of the time probably not.

The last pic (and more relevant to this discussion) shows how much his wrist has pronated. The racquet face is now "turned over" - there was that much pronation. Is it wrist snap or is it pronation? As I said, I don't get hung up on the words. But racquet inertia alone cannot force this much pronation by itself - it will just make the racquet go down in the same path.
 
sureshs said:
http://tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/serve/serve.aspx?id=46380

The second last pic shows Murray hitting down on the ball (perpendicular to string face points below the horizon).
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Uhmmm, he had to "swing up" to get his racquet there, now didn't he????

Secondly, he is clearly hitting the back of the ball (not the top), therefore, he is not "hitting down on the ball".

Lastly, this does not show "wrist snap", it clearly shows a players arm that is completely straight (including the wrist). Additionally, the following photo does not show that his "wrist broke/snapped" forward. Quite the contrary it shows that his arm pronated (the whole thing, and not just the wrist).

Please try again.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
Wrist snap throwing a curve ball in baseball is similar to hitting a kick serve. So i say yes there is some wrist snap going on.
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To throw a curve in baseball, one applies pressure on the outside laces (for a right hander) of the ball with their pointer and middle finger. When the ball is released, the **ENTIRE ARM** pronates. The pressure on the laces and the release of the ball,is what causes it to curve to the left. The arm motion is going forward to the target (the catcher) the entire motion. To hit a kick serve in tennis, the direction of the arm is going to the right (for a right hander), and **NOT** towards the target. However, once again there is severe pronation (not a wrist snap).
 
drakulie said:
Uhmmm, he had to "swing up" to get his racquet there, now didn't he????

Secondly, he is clearly hitting the back of the ball (not the top), therefore, he is not "hitting down on the ball".

Lastly, this does not show "wrist snap", it clearly shows a players arm that is completely straight (including the wrist). Additionally, the following photo does not show that his "wrist broke/snapped" forward. Quite the contrary it shows that his arm pronated (the whole thing, and not just the wrist).

Please try again.
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He is not hitting the back of the ball with a horizontal force. He is hitting on the top-back half of the ball with the strings pointing downwards at impact. The only force the ball feels is directed down below the horizon.

And sure he had to swing up. Before that he had to swing down to the back scratch position. Before that he might have been holding the racquet in neutral stance while adjusting his undies like Nadal. Before that the racquet might have been on the ground besides his chair.

When he hit the ball, he hit down on it - the string face was pointing down at impact. That is all. What all places his racquet had been before contact is irrelevant.

And sure his entire arm has pronated and that is the sign of an advanced player. To get there you need to start by paying attention to getting the wrist to snap or pronate as a baby step. Aside from keeping the ball in, it gets you to the ultimate goal where the whole motion is integrated smoothly with your arm and it appears as if racquet inertia brings it down.
 
sureshs said:
He is not hitting the back of the ball with a horizontal force. He is hitting on the top-back half of the ball with the strings pointing downwards at impact. The only force the ball feels is directed down below the horizon.

And sure he had to swing up. Before that he had to swing down to the back scratch position. Before that he might have been holding the racquet in neutral stance while adjusting his undies like Nadal. Before that the racquet might have been on the ground besides his chair.

When he hit the ball, he hit down on it - the string face was pointing down at impact. That is all. What all places his racquet had been before contact is irrelevant.

And sure his entire arm has pronated and that is the sign of an advanced player. To get there you need to start by paying attention to getting the wrist to snap or pronate as a baby step. Aside from keeping the ball in, it gets you to the ultimate goal where the whole motion is integrated smoothly with your arm and it appears as if racquet inertia brings it down.
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Tell you what. why don't you show us what you mean. Video tape yourself with absolutely no arm movement, other snapping your wrist forward at impact, and show us how it is done.

This will be a real laugh. Hope you don't break your wrist doing this.
 
drakulie said:
To throw a curve in baseball, one applies pressure on the outside laces (for a right hander) of the ball with their pointer and middle finger. When the ball is released, the **ENTIRE ARM** pronates. The pressure on the laces and the release of the ball,is what causes it to curve to the left.
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No, snapping your wrists causes it to curve. Just do a search on snapping wrists curveball. Show me one link where they say you don't snap your wrist.
 
I've been avoiding this debate but I'll chime in just this once. I think much is made about individual parts of a fluid motion such as serve. For instance, there is too much emphasis on the "back scratch" position. This occurrence should happen naturally as one begins to bring the racquet up to make contact with the ball. Unfortunately, people actively try to bring that racquet into that position.
 
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Rick Macci in Tennis magazine, special Serve issue, on a wrist snap drill:

"Start with a bow in your hitting wrist... Lean forward slightly at the waist... toss the ball in front of you and bend your wrist back and snap the ball down using only your wrist... you want the ball to make a loud sound and a high bounce." Rick's student shows his ideas.
 
On your serves and overheads, learn to "snap" your wrists. Many players "push" or arm their serves and overheads. Snapping deals directly with your wrist. Use your arm and shoulder for height, use your "wrist snap" for power. Try these ideas, you will find it easy to remember and it may modernize your game and make the game more fun.

John Mills, USPTA
 
drakulie said:
How about knuckle balls????
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Nope not much wrist snap. Because of the grip on the ball they are releasing it with their fingers more. Which is why they are so slow.

Again, to make the ball rise in baseball, do they snap their wrist up???
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Rising fastball? I'm postive they are still snapping their wrists. Fastball without snapping your wrists is impossible.
 
drakulie said:
Uhmmm, he had to "swing up" to get his racquet there, now didn't he????

Secondly, he is clearly hitting the back of the ball (not the top), therefore, he is not "hitting down on the ball".

Lastly, this does not show "wrist snap", it clearly shows a players arm that is completely straight (including the wrist). Additionally, the following photo does not show that his "wrist broke/snapped" forward. Quite the contrary it shows that his arm pronated (the whole thing, and not just the wrist).

Please try again.
Click to expand...

I also checked these pics. I see absolutely NO wrist snap from Murray. I am not familiar with this arguement. I always assumed the wrist "breaks" well after the racquet makes contact. Put how can anyone "snap" the ball when you are not hitting over top of it (that makes sense to me). Why do some continue to argue there is wrist snap on a serve?

I did not read everything, but why would baseball be used as an example? Isn't there wrist snap for a curve ball?
 
OMG, this post has been hijacked by wannabe pros...please take this to the tennis advice and tips forum....and please stop repeating yourself...once is funny, three times is annoying
 
USTA Player Development section

Technique: Key Factors in the Development of Racket Speed in the Tennis Serve

Bruce Elliott, Ph.D

How important is wrist flexion in the service action?

Hand Flexion(Wrist Snap) : This is another important movement in the generation of racket speed at impact and is responsible for about 30% of racket speed (Figure 5 to 6). This is the final segment to move in the generation of racket speed.
 
Last time I went out to hit serves my kick was nice, as was my slice. My wrist is always loose on serve but I don't actively pronate it. The different serves are accomplish through a series of other factors, but there is absolutely no active pronation of the wrist on the serve.

The wrist 'snaps' in the sense that it's the tail end of a whip. In that sense, I guess I could call it a wrist snap, but it's way overemphasized and clearly misconstrued.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
How is your kick serve? Or your slice out wide on the Deuce side? Are you saying you don't snap your wrists to get rotation and can hit these serves?
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I've already provided several links of pros (high speed video), showing they do no snap their wrist. All you have to do to prove your argument is post a video of yourself hitting this type of serve. Make sure right before contact, your arm is still, and the only thing moving is your wrist snapping forward. I'm sure the tennis world will be very grateful to know there are fellows like you inventing new revolutionary ways to play the game.
 
Go to hi-techtennis.com and read about the kick serve. They have a very good analysis. Changing the serves is all about the timing and the angle of the shoulder pronation, not the wrist pronation.
 
My wrists snap on serves, forehands, overheads, bachand volleys, forehand volleys, it's stable on the two hander but i'm still using them. Wrist snap is very important imo with all shot's in tennis. Very important. Whether you agree it's snapping or not and can tell from a video well that's your call.
 
sureshs said:
How to do a Wrist Snap in Tennis - Joe Dinoffer

http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-do-a-Wrist-Snap-in-Tennis-27820401

"Wrist is the essence of a good serve"

Joe Dinoffer is a Master Professional in both the PTR and USPTA, a distinction awarded to only a handful in the tennis industry. He has published numerous books and videotapes and is a frequent speaker at tennis conferences around the world.
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I've tried to stay away these technical discussion b/c it will get sensitive and ugly but I can not help when I see the name Joe Dinoffer.. Gossh.. this guy is absolutely clueless.. He invented all kind of gimick & all kind of tennis instruction ideas by using his daughter.. it was the worse serve instruction I ever seen..

I've met and seen so many so call USPTA pro or whatever man.. some of them clueless.. they can't even hold the racquet correctly.. They have no ideas how to play tennis some of them in fact never YES.. never play a real set of tennis .. and they are certified to teach.. this is sad for the kids..

I also noticed these USPTA pro are very very sensitive about tennis instruction/technique comments.... SO what I would say.. stay away these technical discussion term.. it will get really ugly.. most of them have huge ego about their skills. Just enjoy the game..

By the way.. I don't think snapping the wrist is the right thing to do for 120+miles serve.. I saw that guy taught a cobra serve on tennis channel.. well .. may be it works for beginner try to get the ball in the court but after awhile you learn to bend your knees jump up, extend your arm go down the ball.. the wrist is an automatic movement flex down of the motion rather than snapping it.. you will break your wrist if you do on the serve.. specially with heavy racquet.. very very little wrist involve..
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
My wrists snap on serves, forehands, overheads, bachand volleys, forehand volleys, it's stable on the two hander but i'm still using them. Wrist snap is very important imo with all shot's in tennis. Very important. Whether you agree it's snapping or not and can tell from a video well that's your call.
Click to expand...

you're snapping on volleys? why? bad technique?
 
jetlee2k said:
He invented all kind of gimick & all kind of tennis instruction ideas by using his daughter
Click to expand...

I have seen the videos with his daughter Kalindi. He is a businessman and owns a company selling tennis aids and DVDs and markets himself well. That is what entrepreneurs do to be successful.
 
jetlee2k said:
By the way.. I don't think snapping the wrist is the right thing to do for 120+miles serve.. I saw that guy taught a cobra serve on tennis channel.. well .. may be it works for beginner try to get the ball in the court but after awhile you learn to bend your knees jump up, extend your arm go down the ball.. the wrist is an automatic movement flex down of the motion rather than snapping it.. you will break your wrist if you do on the serve.. specially with heavy racquet.. very very little wrist involve..
Click to expand...

I agree that it is superfluous instruction for an advanced player. They use heavy racquets and swing very fast, and pronation will happen automatically with very little effort from their side due to the inertia. As long as they keep the wrist loose, the rest of the mechanics will do everything. Just like they bend their knees, follow thru etc without conscious effort. But for most recreational players like the ones here, it is a step towards the ultimate goal, which they will really never reach. 99% of people here will never hit a 120 mph serve.
 
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