A brand new KPS 88 & A Brand New Pro staff St. Vincent

Regarding the serve, I believe that you will find that pronating the arm (rotating the arm/wrist in a counter clockwise manner) and introducing a wrist snap at the moment of impact will provide the most immediate power benefits. Of course, body rotation and knee bend cannot be overlooked in the serve power equation.

Ron Waite, USPTR
 
stormholloway said:
Wrist snap on backhand volleys... now I've heard it all.
Click to expand...


Wrist snap on slice backhands too. Backhand volley is not much different than a slice backhand. Imagine trying to hit a slice backhand with no wrist snap. You would have to be concentrating on keeping your wrist perefectly still, your arm would have to be fully extended, you would look uncordinated hitting it.
 
"use the maximum wrist-snap for your serve and overhead smash."

- Tony Trabert

Grand Slam Singles Finals

Wins (5)
Year Championship Opponent in Final Score in Final
1953 U.S. Championships Vic Seixas 6–3, 6–2, 6–3
1954 French Championships Art Larsen 6–4, 7–5, 6–1
1955 French Championships (2) Sven Davidson 2–6, 6–1, 6–4, 6–2
1955 Wimbledon Championships Kurt Nielsen 6–3, 7–5, 6–1
1955 U.S. Championships (2) Ken Rosewall 9–7, 6–3, 6–3
 
Suresh, once again talkig doo-doo. Please show me where I ever mentioned Braden in this thread?

Ultra, you must have some ugly strokes. Can't wait for you to post your video. Make sure to include those volleys. Lmao
 
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drakulie said:
Suresh, once again talkig doo-doo. Please show me where I ever mentioned Braden in this thread?

Ultra, you must have some ugly strokes. Can't wait for you to post your video. Make sure to include those volleys. Lmao
Click to expand...


Haha. But when you clowns can say you have atleast one tennis trophy that you won playing singles in a leauge or tournament, i'll believe you have some credibility.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
Wrist snap on slice backhands too. Backhand volley is not much different than a slice backhand. Imagine trying to hit a slice backhand with no wrist snap. You would have to be concentrating on keeping your wrist perefectly still, your arm would have to be fully extended, you would look uncordinated hitting it.
Click to expand...

.... What? :confused:
 
can we compare the golf motion to the serve motion? If you dont snap (or break, twist,) your wrist in the golf motion, you definetly get less power. Same in the tennis serve motion
 
stormholloway said:
C) Of course you're bringing it down. Did I dispute the fact that the ball starts high and moves down? No. My point is the body's energy is directed upward. The racquet turns over on its own due to centrifugal force. Tie a ball to a string and swing it around. Maybe that will help.
Click to expand...
Hmmm....I thought you claimed that it didn't exist? :oops:

Glad to see that you've learned something here. :)
 
I agree - back to the KPS88.
But since you clowns brought it up - those of you that don't believe the wrist is involved... put an hand brace on (one that keeps the wrist from bending) and serve a few up. Then tell us wether you think the wrist (snap) is involved.
 
Centrifugal force is a pseudo-force. It exists only to explain the phenomena in non-inertial reference frames (like a rotating frame) where frame = not the same as racquet.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
How is your kick serve? Or your slice out wide on the Deuce side? Are you saying you don't snap your wrists to get rotation and can hit these serves?
Click to expand...

no, I just swing at a different angle and hit a different part of the ball. i really don't think i snap my wrist in anyway at contact.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
My wrists snap on serves, forehands, overheads, bachand volleys, forehand volleys, it's stable on the two hander but i'm still using them. Wrist snap is very important imo with all shot's in tennis. Very important. Whether you agree it's snapping or not and can tell from a video well that's your call.
Click to expand...

your wrist breaks, not snaps. I know what you mean, but its more so the wrist rolling over on FH and BH...it can't possibly snap.
 
sureshs said:
Azzurri said:
I did not read everything, but why would baseball be used as an example? QUOTE]

Drakulie dragged Vic Braden into this, and Braden has talked profusely about how tennis players should learn from baseball pitchers.
Click to expand...

sorry to say, but even as a kid I thought Braden was an ***. I tried or listened to his tips and they were horrible. he was big in Tennis magazine in the 80's with his tips and what not. Not trying to flame..I honestly thought he was a putz back then and have no reason to change my mind. sorry, not trying to disagree just to disagree, but...ugggh, I just can't stand the guy.
Click to expand...
 
Azzurri said:
sureshs said:
sorry to say, but even as a kid I thought Braden was an ***. I tried or listened to his tips and they were horrible. he was big in Tennis magazine in the 80's with his tips and what not. Not trying to flame..I honestly thought he was a putz back then and have no reason to change my mind. sorry, not trying to disagree just to disagree, but...ugggh, I just can't stand the guy.
Click to expand...

He is a PhD in psychology or something and got into the scientific analysis of sports. He was a college tennis player though. When he hit a few balls during his clinic, it was not impressive at all - but he is really old. The only thing he kept saying was "hit low to high." He told amusing stories which seemed to entertain the women very much. Most of the time the coaching was done by the club pros and it was what they seemed to do by themselves in any case. It is the name that sells.
Click to expand...
 
sureshs said:
Azzurri said:
He is a PhD in psychology or something and got into the scientific analysis of sports. He was a college tennis player though. When he hit a few balls during his clinic, it was not impressive at all - but he is really old. The only thing he kept saying was "hit low to high." He told amusing stories which seemed to entertain the women very much. Most of the time the coaching was done by the club pros and it was what they seemed to do by themselves in any case. It is the name that sells.
Click to expand...

well that makes sense.:) never thought much of him...so this could a good reason.
Click to expand...
 
Azzurri said:
sorry to say, but even as a kid I thought Braden was an ***. I tried or listened to his tips and they were horrible. he was big in Tennis magazine in the 80's with his tips and what not. Not trying to flame..I honestly thought he was a putz back then and have no reason to change my mind. sorry, not trying to disagree just to disagree, but...ugggh, I just can't stand the guy.
Click to expand...

Just so you are aware, I did not bring up Vic Braden. I haven't even acknolwedged him. The poster who brought him into this discusssion is, Suresh (although not even sure why he mentioned him). Here is his post:

sureshs said:
Why would I believe 3.5 players instead of a USPTA certified tennis pro and an advanced player who lays out his teaching on national TV for everyone to see rather than accumulating posts here?

BTW, I have attended a Vic Braden clinic, and he is a horrible player. He also uses an obscenely big racquet. Does not mean he is a bad teacher. But he is a bad player.
Click to expand...

The only teaching pro I have mentioned is Yandell. I'm sure you are familiar with his works. He has not only filmed hundreds of pros, but studied thousands of video shot at high-speed. Here are his thoughts.

JohnYandell said:
I think what a top player says is always interesting but usually indicates a "feel" that he or she has and not a closely studied technical viewpoint.

It's incorrect to say that the wrist doesn't move on the serve or on the forehand. The questions are: when does it move and why and how.

Basically hundreds or actually thousands of video examples show that the role is overwhelmingly passive and a function of the other forces driving the strokes.


If a good player wants to believe that he "snaps" and has that "feel" then it's hard to say he shouldn't--if the video shows that his arm and racket are going through the same positions as other elite performers.

The problem is usually with lower level players who try to make these movements "happen" through conscious muscle contractions. This is the problem with a term like "snap the wrist." If you believe the wrist "snaps" then you may also believe you have to make it snap.

Rod Cross calculated that the force you can generate in this fashion is far less than the force of the larger rotational movements that really drive the stroke and cause wrist movement to occur when and if it does.

You can find plenty of examples of the wrist staying 90 degrees plus to the forearm after contact on the forehand, and even moving further into the laid back position after contact. You wouldn't see that if the players were "snapping" in the way most people think of it.

On the serve, you see the arm and racket rotating from the shoulder counterclockwise as a unit moving thru and after the hit. If the wrist breaks past neutral, which it often doesn't, this occurs due to relaxation, gravity and/or the relative speeds of the racket head and hands well after contact.
Click to expand...


I find it fascinating that suresh, ultra, bubba and everyone else that says there is a wrist snap on the serve, have yet to provide even one video of a player doing what they are saying. Even more fascinating is they keep quoting teaching pros, yet every one of those teaching pros does not provide any video evidence on their websites of a pro doing what they are advocating.

Lastly, I will mention, Braden. I too do not like him or his teaching style. However, he has been extremely influential in studying the bio-mechanics of tennis strokes, and has been a pioneer in this field. He also has proven thru research, high-speed video analysis, and help of others that there is no wrist snap in the serve, FH, or BH.

I will end with the greatest server of all time. No wrist snap:

http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras02.htm
 
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drakulie said:
Just so you are aware, I did not bring up Vic Braden. I haven't even acknolwedged him. The poster who brought him into this discusssion is, Suresh (although not even sure why he mentioned him).
Here is his post:



The only teaching pro I have mentioned is Yandell. I'm sure you are familiar with his works. He has not only filmed hundreds of pros, but studied thousands of video shot at high-speed. Here are his thoughts.




I find it fascinating that suresh, ultra, bubba and everyone else that says there is a wrist snap on the serve, have yet to provide even one video of a player doing what they are saying. Even more fascinating is they keep quoting teaching pros, yet every one of those teaching pros does not provide any video evidence on their websites of a pro doing what they are advocating.

Lastly, I will mention, Braden. I too do not like him or his teaching style. However, he has been extremely influential in studying the bio-mechanics of tennis strokes, and has been a pioneer in this field. He also has proven thru research, high-speed video analysis, and help of others that there is no wrist snap in the serve, FH, or BH.

I will end with the greatest server of all time. No wrist snap:

http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras02.htm
Click to expand...

does not surprise me that Suresh got "mixed up". I keep telling him to read his posts before he hits the submit button. I was really talking to anyone specifically about Braden, but just thinking back as a young kid (teenager) what a freak Braden was and his stupid triangular racquet. I just remember his stupid tips in tennis magazine and how "scientific" they were. He was one of the reasons I stopped reading the tennis tips area for years. I figured if Tennis magazine lets this guy give tips, then they are just as clueless.

Back to Suresh...he has some serious short-term memory issues.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
But if you ask or read sampras biography he say's he uses wrist snap.. How can you argue with his words?
Click to expand...

Please post a video of you serving over 100 mph using only your wrist. Practice what you preach, and show us how it is done. Who cares what Sampras says related to this issue, fact is>> he doesn't, and the proof is in the video.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
But if you ask or read sampras biography he say's he uses wrist snap.. How can you argue with his words?
Click to expand...

what page?

maybe Pete does not know what he is talking about. did you ever think of that? slow doen the video Drakulie rpovided. it clearly shows he DOES NOT snap his wrist. its all in the torque of Pete shoulder, not his wrist. hist wrist does not snap over or across the ball. if you have eyes, you will see at moment of contact, his wrist/hand is perpendicular to the ground. his racquet head "snaps" well after contact and that is just because of a release point.

Drakulie..I never even thought of this a big deal, but even when you show people actual proof, they still argue.

Suresh and Ultra..THE WORLD IS ROUND! The pictures of outerspace and Francis Drake proved this.
 
drakulie said:
Please post a video of you serving over 100 mph using only your wrist. Practice what you preach, and show us how it is done. Who cares what Sampras says related to this issue, fact is>> he doesn't, and the proof is in the video.
Click to expand...



You wont be able to tell from a video. If you think his wrist is totally firm without wrist rotation than i dont know what else to say. You snap your wrist at impact, i dont care how it looks on video, and the rotation continues after contact, follow thru. I can only describe how i play, is my wrist perfectly still? No, not on any shots.
 
drakulie said:
Just so you are aware, I did not bring up Vic Braden. I haven't even acknolwedged him. The poster who brought him into this discusssion is, Suresh (although not even sure why he mentioned him). Here is his post:



The only teaching pro I have mentioned is Yandell. I'm sure you are familiar with his works. He has not only filmed hundreds of pros, but studied thousands of video shot at high-speed. Here are his thoughts.




I find it fascinating that suresh, ultra, bubba and everyone else that says there is a wrist snap on the serve, have yet to provide even one video of a player doing what they are saying. Even more fascinating is they keep quoting teaching pros, yet every one of those teaching pros does not provide any video evidence on their websites of a pro doing what they are advocating.

Lastly, I will mention, Braden. I too do not like him or his teaching style. However, he has been extremely influential in studying the bio-mechanics of tennis strokes, and has been a pioneer in this field. He also has proven thru research, high-speed video analysis, and help of others that there is no wrist snap in the serve, FH, or BH.

I will end with the greatest server of all time. No wrist snap:

http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras02.htm
Click to expand...

What ever dude...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__9ZuSID4w

Clearly wrist snap

BTW, Pete was good, great even - but Roddick has (arguabaly) the best serve ever.
 
Azzurri said:
what page?

maybe Pete does not know what he is talking about. did you ever think of that? slow doen the video Drakulie rpovided. it clearly shows he DOES NOT snap his wrist. its all in the torque of Pete shoulder, not his wrist. hist wrist does not snap over or across the ball. if you have eyes, you will see at moment of contact, his wrist/hand is perpendicular to the ground. his racquet head "snaps" well after contact and that is just because of a release point.

Drakulie..I never even thought of this a big deal, but even when you show people actual proof, they still argue.

Suresh and Ultra..THE WORLD IS ROUND! The pictures of outerspace and Francis Drake proved this.
Click to expand...

Actually - it's closer to oblate spheroid... slightly squashed. Further, unless you have a prosthesis arm, all serves will have a degree of wrist snap.
 
Bubba said:
What ever dude...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__9ZuSID4w

Clearly wrist snap

BTW, Pete was good, great even - but Roddick has (arguabaly) the best serve ever.
Click to expand...

WHAAAAAAAT?????? No wrsit snap whatsoever. at contact his wrist is firm. well after the ball LEFT the racquet his natural progression turns his wrist. Its so obvious. what are you looking at? please tell me where you see the actual snap of the wrist? please tell me where, at what point of the video.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
You wont be able to tell from a video.
Click to expand...

LOL. Here is video shot at 4000 frames per second.

http://www.look-learn.de/e_index.htm

click on "superslow motion", and "trailer" links. Not one video shows a wrist snap (either in the FH or Serve).

Bubba said:
What ever dude...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__9ZuSID4w

Clearly wrist snap

BTW, Pete was good, great even - but Roddick has (arguabaly) the best serve ever.
Click to expand...

LOL. Clearly shows a rotation of the forearm. His wrist never breaks past neutral. Try again.

Again, show a video of someone serving over 100 mph using only "a breaking of the wrist forward".
 
Azzurri said:
WHAAAAAAAT?????? No wrsit snap whatsoever. at contact his wrist is firm. well after the ball LEFT the racquet his natural progression turns his wrist. Its so obvious. what are you looking at? please tell me where you see the actual snap of the wrist? please tell me where, at what point of the video.
Click to expand...

It's like we woke up and entered the twilight zone. One thing I learned from this thread is these guys must be absolutely horrible at this sport if they are practicing what they preach. Would abolsutely love to see their serve videos.
 
Bubba said:
Actually - it's closer to oblate spheroid... slightly squashed. Further, unless you have a prosthesis arm, all serves will have a degree of wrist snap.
Click to expand...

well after contact, yes the wrist breaks. maybe you, Ultra and Suresh have a different idea of snap. Snap is a fast, jerk down movement of the wrist. But when Pete and Andy (or anyone else) make contact on their serve, there is NO snap. Look at your won video. please tell me where there is any snap at CONTACT. does not matter after contact, you could twirl your forearm 180 degrees and it will have no effect on the ball. Please, please show me where the wrist breaks, snaps, bends, curves, curls or any other word that shows the wrist beraking at the point of contact. I thought we all know how a serve works. how serves are different in where you hit it (the ball), at what location you toss the ball, how high and so on. BUT none have to do with snapping your wrist at the point of contact.

do you realize the POINT OF CONTACT is what matters????
 
drakulie said:
It's like we woke up and entered the twilight zone. One thing I learned from this thread is these guys must be absolutely horrible at this sport if they are practicing what they preach. Would abolsutely love to see their serve videos.
Click to expand...

could it be possible they are not tennis players (or maybe they started playing when they joined the boards) and have no job, girlfriends or any other reason to get out of the house?

which one of you is George Costanza? He at least has a conceivable reason for waking up each morning..to read the Daily News.

I know what you mean. I know not everything is one way in tennis. people can have an opinion. But when someone argues the sky is yellow when anyone can see it is blue is insane. Maybe they don't understand the term wristsnap. Maybe anyone that uses the term "wrist snap" does not realize there is no "wrist snap" and just thinks there is. No one showed them video proof. The Pete video in slo-motion clearly shows his wrist is stable. not at all snapping "into" the serve. I don't know how or why we are argueing this.
 
rocket said:
You guys might be interested in this analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4&feature=related
Click to expand...

yes, did you see that he "pronates" WELL AFTER the serve? They clearly show at the point of contact his wrist is steady...no change in angle. Pronation will happen as long as you hold the racquet with a contiental grip and follow through. Its a progression. Look at the video again. they stop the video at contact and you se his wrist is stead, then they show a yellow shadow and they show the "pronation" well after the ball is gone. There is NO wrist snap at contact. Do you see it??

pause the video at 2:51. the point of contact and his steady wrist is obvious.
 
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rocket said:
You guys might be interested in this analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4&feature=related
Click to expand...

Narrated by tennis pro- Brent Able.

I actually have his entire series on the serve. Besides the video you provided, he has other Sampras videos shot in slow motion, form different angles. Not one of them shows a "breaking of the wrist forward'. In every one, regardless of the type of serve he is hitting, his wrist is neutral at contact, and does not break forward until well after contact.


Azzurri said:
which one of you is George Costanza? He at least has a conceivable reason for waking up each morning..to read the Daily News.
Click to expand...

LMAO! I could picture it now. :)
 
Azzurri said:
pause the video at 2:51. the point of contact and his steady wrist is obvious.
Click to expand...


Of'Course it will be still, It's a VIDEO OF A PAUSED MOTION. Pause a video of a pitcher releasing a baseball and it's the same thing. Tell you what, go throw a baseball or tennis ball and remember to keep your wrist perfectly still without bending it at all. Let me know how that works out.
 
Azzurri said:
There is NO wrist snap at contact. Do you see it??
Click to expand...

drakulie said:
Narrated by tennis pro- Brent Able.

Not one of them shows a "breaking of the wrist forward'.
Click to expand...

Yeah I guess if one points the butt cap at the ball before hitting it, he/she should develop a natural pronation. I think the key is to keep the wrist relaxed, not too loose, but not too rigid either.

I was taught to 'throw' the racquet upward & forward.
 
Ultra2HolyGrail said:
Of'Course it will be still, It's a VIDEO OF A PAUSED MOTION. Pause a video of a pitcher releasing a baseball and it's the same thing. Tell you what, go throw a baseball or tennis ball and remember to keep your wrist perfectly still without bending it at all. Let me know how that works out.
Click to expand...

at release point? so you are telling me the ball will go straight to the catcher after I snap my wrist to get all that action on the ball?

did you see a wrist snap at the point of contact? yes or no? by the way, snapping the wrist at the point of contact with a racquet whilserving will only have the ball go straight into the net (if you're lucky it goes that far).
 
Azzurri said:
did you see a wrist snap at the point of contact? yes or no?
Click to expand...


Wake up. Do you see a wrist snap when a pitcher releases the ball? It will look perfectly still. Go to a doctor and tell him to wire up your wrists so you can't bend them at all. Let me know if it makes a difference.
 
In my opinion, there is a snap of the wrist, it has to be because it is the end of the kinetic chain. IMO you cant see it because the contact point is just when the snaping start, the moment of major acceleration, the snap movement you see at the follow thru and after the contact point is just a consecuense of the first snap.

So the contact with the ball occur inmediately after the snap begins, this is why you cant see it, but I think is there, actually Im sure.
 
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