A Couple of Forehands in Slow Motion

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Here are a couple of forehands I hit during point play. As far as technique goes is one better than the other? What would be some mistakes in my mechanics that stand out?



 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
I think your hitting elbow is a little too close to your side during your take-back, your left arm is never really involved(as in pulling it back to start your initial shoulder turn), so I would hold the racquet longer with your left hand during take-back and then use that left arm for momentum so that your core is involved more, I think that may help with your off balanced form after contact (where your torso and body are leaning off to the left side and back). HTH
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I think your hitting elbow is a little too close to your side during your take-back, your left arm is never really involved(as in pulling it back to start your initial shoulder turn), so I would hold the racquet longer with your left hand during take-back and then use that left arm for momentum so that your core is involved more, I think that may help with your off balanced form after contact (where your torso and body are leaning off to the left side and back). HTH
I am going out today to practice I will try to hold the racket longer with my left hand. I think some of my problem is late set up, because I have tried to hold the racket longer while hitting in the past and it did seem to help. But that was on easy rally shots where I had time, once it speeds up some I feel like I am late if I hold with left hand to long.
 

johndagolfer

Professional
Maybe a tad better than the past. But you shoulders and body are still so disconnected from you stroke. You can see this in your backswing. At the end of your backswing your left shoulder and arm are moving forward while your right shoulder arm are moving back. You must have a strong right arm because it dominates the stroke. You could gain so much more easy consistent power if you used your body more
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Left hip and therefore shoulder open up too early for me, I'd like to see you load with more "tension" in that left side before drving the right side through. Your shoulders should turn past the line of your hips to create a greater seperation angle.
 
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Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
I am going out today to practice I will try to hold the racket longer with my left hand. I think some of my problem is late set up, because I have tried to hold the racket longer while hitting in the past and it did seem to help. But that was on easy rally shots where I had time, once it speeds up some I feel like I am late if I hold with left hand to long.
Maybe try and keep it(left hand) on the throat of the racquet until it passes in front of the chest and release it when it's in front of your right shoulder.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Left hip and therefore shoulder open up too early for me, I'd like to see you load with more "tension" in that left side before drving the right side through. Your shoulders should turn past the line of your hips to create a greater seperation angle.
/\ Which is why everyone says you look stiff, because your whole torso moves as one big unit and then your arm becomes the only thing left to move freely that can generate energy.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Left hip and therefore shoulder open up too early for me, I'd like to see you load with more "tension" in that left side before drving the right side through. Your shoulders should turn past the line of your hips to create a greater seperation angle.
Okay I will try to turn the shoulder more and try and not open up as early.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
BTW - you should probably take that ball on the rise. It's bouncing near the service line and yet you are way back behind the baseline and off balance.
 

johndagolfer

Professional
BTW - you should probably take that ball on the rise. It's bouncing near the service line and yet you are way back behind the baseline and off balance.
I believe that would be very difficult since his lack hip and shoulder turn on the forward swing cause an upcutting motion. He needs to be able to drive through the ball in order to take the ball on the rise other wise he'll serve up a creampuff sitter
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
BTW - you should probably take that ball on the rise. It's bouncing near the service line and yet you are way back behind the baseline and off balance.
If you notice there is some kick on my friends shots because they carry after the bounce to well past the baseline. I am much more comfortable from behind the baseline where I have more time.

I don't see where I am off balance, maybe I am but I don't feel off balance on those shots.
 

ARKustom93

Professional
I am going out today to practice I will try to hold the racket longer with my left hand. I think some of my problem is late set up, because I have tried to hold the racket longer while hitting in the past and it did seem to help. But that was on easy rally shots where I had time, once it speeds up some I feel like I am late if I hold with left hand to long.

You mentioned "late setup" as a potential problem. Focus on adjusting your setup timing to the ball you're dealing with.
 

shindemac

Hall of Fame
I don't see where I am off balance, maybe I am but I don't feel off balance on those shots.
Look at 0:17 to 0:20.

Balance gets worse with age. I've seen old guys fall and hit their head on the ground before. It's very dangerous if you're not aware.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Did you try the hip and shoulder turn during practice today? How did it turn out?
Yes I did try turning more and keeping my left hand on the racket longer. It seemed to work okay, will have to see if I can practice it more to get it engrained.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Look at 0:17 to 0:20.

Balance gets worse with age. I've seen old guys fall and hit their head on the ground before. It's very dangerous if you're not aware.
I see that my follow through pulls me to the left and I lean some to that side. But I do not see that as being way off balance more of just recovering.
 

johndagolfer

Professional
Yes I did try turning more and keeping my left hand on the racket longer. It seemed to work okay, will have to see if I can practice it more to get it engrained.
Good luck changing ingrained timing can be very tough, but I think in the long run it will male your game more dynamic.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
I see that my follow through pulls me to the left and I lean some to that side. But I do not see that as being way off balance more of just recovering.
You're recovering in this way, because something is not right before that point. It is my opinion that, because you rotate your entire torso at the same time instead of, allowing your hips to become engaged and then shoulders after that, that your body can't slow the momentum down properly, ie, your hips should stop rotating and your shoulders stop after the hips.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Good luck changing ingrained timing can be very tough, but I think in the long run it will male your game more dynamic.
Ya your right I am at least trying to get more shoulder turn and hold onto the racket longer with left hand.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
You're recovering in this way, because something is not right before that point. It is my opinion that, because you rotate your entire torso at the same time instead of, allowing your hips to become engaged and then shoulders after that, that your body can't slow the momentum down properly, ie, your hips should stop rotating and your shoulders stop after the hips.
Now that makes sense and could very well be true. I guess beings I am so used to hitting this way that I don't even notice the follow through.
 

johndagolfer

Professional
Ya your right I am at least trying to get more shoulder turn and hold onto the racket longer with left hand.
I looked up Nadal swings and compared them to yours. I think in order for the shoulder turn to be successful you will need to turn your hips more too.
 

ARKustom93

Professional
Good point I think my setup timing is way off.
Take a cue from the pros. The ball will not accommodate you, you need to adjust to the ball, whether the determining factor is surface speed or what you partner/opponent is putting on the ball. That's why for max preparation they practice on tournament-specific surfaces and choose hitting partners 'resembling' the next opponent.
 

shindemac

Hall of Fame
Look at the angle your body makes with the ground. It's almost 45 degrees instead of being closer to 90 degrees.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Take a cue from the pros. The ball will not accommodate you, you need to adjust to the ball, whether the determining factor is surface speed or what you partner/opponent is putting on the ball. That's why for max preparation they practice on tournament-specific surfaces and choose hitting partners 'resembling' the next opponent.
I am working on my conditioning so that I can try to be in good enough shape to stay live on my feet. I think this is my biggest problem when it comes to adjusting to the ball.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Yep, even with an open stance look how much the pros close their hips. Only when there is no time do they abbreviate their hip turn.
I have noticed that they turn the hips so much at times it almost looks more like a neutral stance.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
If you notice there is some kick on my friends shots because they carry after the bounce to well past the baseline. I am much more comfortable from behind the baseline where I have more time.
Of course they have kick - but you are making them extremely effective. A very safe shot with good net clearance and some spin that lands near the service line forces you into hitting an off balance shot from a defensive area on the court. What if instead you could take time away from your opponent and go on the offense? You can if you hit that on the rise..

I am not saying its an easy play - or anyone can do it. I am saying its the correct play in that situation..And if you are working to get better you should be working on that..


I don't see where I am off balance, maybe I am but I don't feel off balance on those shots.
Really? Imagine that you were playing on ice - do you see where you would have fallen down?
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Of course they have kick - but you are making them extremely effective. A very safe shot with good net clearance and some spin that lands near the service line forces you into hitting an off balance shot from a defensive area on the court. What if instead you could take time away from your opponent and go on the offense? You can if you hit that on the rise..

I am not saying its an easy play - or anyone can do it. I am saying its the correct play in that situation..And if you are working to get better you should be working on that..

Okay I could move forward and take those off the rise and take time away. But my style is to play high % and stay back and put pressure on from the back court. Did you notice where my opponent is taking my shots at? The one to his forehand side he gets there quick and try's to take it off the rise but the ball still gets up to at least his shoulders. Then there is one to his backhand where he has to whip the racket up at head height to fight off the high ball. If you watch my shots all the way you will see how quickly they are rising up.


Really? Imagine that you were playing on ice - do you see where you would have fallen down?[/QUOTE
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I could move up and take those shots off the rise with a more aggressive mind set. But I play high % tennis and like to put pressure on from the backcourt where I have more time. If you watch my shots all the way to where my opponent hits them you will see that they rise up quickly and get up high. The one to his forehand he moves over there quickly and try's to take it off the rise but the ball is still at least at his shoulders. On a shot to his backhand he ends up hitting it at head height. So even though yes I could move up and hit off the rise and take time away I use a more consistent way of attacking.
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
Of course they have kick - but you are making them extremely effective. A very safe shot with good net clearance and some spin that lands near the service line forces you into hitting an off balance shot from a defensive area on the court. What if instead you could take time away from your opponent and go on the offense? You can if you hit that on the rise..

I am not saying its an easy play - or anyone can do it. I am saying its the correct play in that situation..And if you are working to get better you should be working on that..



Really? Imagine that you were playing on ice - do you see where you would have fallen down?
I see what you mean you are referring to to where I lean to the left on my follow through. I thought my balance was okay because I was on balance when I hit the ball. But I did end up pulling over to my left on the follow through, my shot was hit high so I still had plenty of time to recover my balance for the next shot. But I do need to work on that so my recovery is better and gives me more time to prepare for the next shot.
 

johndagolfer

Professional
Hi tlm, since you agree you are off balance, may I ask why you you think this is happening? I have an idea, but want to hear your thoughts first. I think it would go a long way to helping you achieve that easy power v and balance that would help your game.
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
The first and most obvious thing is that you turn your feet before you turn your shoulders. In fact you don't turn your shoulders until far too late.

The shoulder turn needs to happen ASAP. Like when the ball is crossing the net. This is why pro use an open stance sometimes. In some situations they only have time to turn the shoulders before the ball is on them.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Hi tlm, since you agree you are off balance, may I ask why you you think this is happening? I have an idea, but want to hear your thoughts first. I think it would go a long way to helping you achieve that easy power v and balance that would help your game.
I noticed that I am off balance on the follow through and I think it is because I pull up and accross to the left so much that my weight shifts to the left side so I lose balance. Plus I hit off the back foot a lot which then I end up landing a lot of weight on my left foot.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
You are not on balance when you make contact with the ball.
Maybe I am off balance, but I don't feel like I am off balance when hitting the ball on those forehands. I see were I lean to the left a lot on the follow through but also notice that I am completely recovered before my opponent hits the ball.

Is it because I pull up and to the left so much that you are saying I am off balance when I am hitting those shots? I guess I might be off balance but if I stayed more on balance those shots would not have much on them.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
The first and most obvious thing is that you turn your feet before you turn your shoulders. In fact you don't turn your shoulders until far too late.

The shoulder turn needs to happen ASAP. Like when the ball is crossing the net. This is why pro use an open stance sometimes. In some situations they only have time to turn the shoulders before the ball is on them.
I watched it again and your right I don't make the shoulder turn until after the bounce.
 

johndagolfer

Professional
I noticed that I am off balance on the follow through and I think it is because I pull up and accross to the left so much that my weight shifts to the left side so I lose balance. Plus I hit off the back foot a lot which then I end up landing a lot of weight on my left foot.
I think there is a reason why you pull up and across. Let me know what you think, but I think the problem starts before your forward swing. Your swing sort of reminds me of the reverse pivot in golf. At the beginning of the swing, the golfer, mostly by not turning, hasn't shifted his weight back. He is forced to move backwards during the downswing in order to clear a path that lets the upper body swing at the ball. This causes all sorts of problems including loss odd easy power.

Because you don't have a full shoulder backswing and you restrict your hips from turning back as well, in order to make any move into the ball your hips must clear awkwardly (back and to the left). I think this is why you are always on your back foot. Your initial move away from the ball is so restricted you have no where else to go.

To fix this more than anything, you're going to have to start getting your hips turned a lot more in the backswing. I believe if you fix this first then everything after will be easier. Thoughts?
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
I think there is a reason why you pull up and across. Let me know what you think, but I think the problem starts before your forward swing. Your swing sort of reminds me of the reverse pivot in golf. At the beginning of the swing, the golfer, mostly by not turning, hasn't shifted his weight back. He is forced to move backwards during the downswing in order to clear a path that lets the upper body swing at the ball. This causes all sorts of problems including loss odd easy power.

Because you don't have a full shoulder backswing and you restrict your hips from turning back as well, in order to make any move into the ball your hips must clear awkwardly (back and to the left). I think this is why you are always on your back foot. Your initial move away from the ball is so restricted you have no where else to go.

To fix this more than anything, you're going to have to start getting your hips turned a lot more in the backswing. I believe if you fix this first then everything after will be easier. Thoughts?
I am going out in a couple of hours for some hitting practice I will work on the hip and shoulder turn.
 

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
I could move up and take those shots off the rise with a more aggressive mind set. But I play high % tennis and like to put pressure on from the backcourt where I have more time.
I'm not sure you understand what pressure means. What you're doing is the exact opposite of pressure. You hit the moon balls which give the opponent time to get to the ball unrushed. You play far behind the baseline thus giving him more time to recover. You don't hit on the rise so you're not taking away time that way. Plus you hit from deep behind the baseline and not on the rise so while he is enjoying the luxury of the generous recovery time the balls u hit have less pace and have a farther distance to travel making them slower. Also playing deep seriously decreases the possibility of any wide angles being hit so the opponent pretty much doesn't have to calculate that as you've made the court narrower for him. Plus you don't go to the net and and when you do its usually from a too deep position thus giving more time and angles for the pass.

What you're applying is anti-pressure.
 
Everyone seems to be focusing on the hips and shoulder turn. In my opinion (I'm a coach by the way) it's his arm that is the problem. It's way to stiff. There is little or no lag from the wrist. This causes him to hit the ball very close to his body and means his hips and shoulders follow through incorrectly and leave him off balance. It starts well with a semi open stance and the left hand guiding the ball in then the arm comes through and the wrist doesn't snap resulting in his whole body leaning to the left.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I'm not sure you understand what pressure means. What you're doing is the exact opposite of pressure. You hit the moon balls which give the opponent time to get to the ball unrushed. You play far behind the baseline thus giving him more time to recover. You don't hit on the rise so you're not taking away time that way. Plus you hit from deep behind the baseline and not on the rise so while he is enjoying the luxury of the generous recovery time the balls u hit have less pace and have a farther distance to travel making them slower. Also playing deep seriously decreases the possibility of any wide angles being hit so the opponent pretty much doesn't have to calculate that as you've made the court narrower for him. Plus you don't go to the net and and when you do its usually from a too deep position thus giving more time and angles for the pass.

What you're applying is anti-pressure.
Then how do I win matches then? Do you notice the height that my opponent is hitting my shots at? Those shots are slower in the air I will give you that, but they come off the court quick and jump up high. Which is very annoying for my opponents.

Ya my deep position and high shots do give my opponents more time than standing closer to the baseline and hitting flatter shots this is true. But I rarely miss because I take the net out of the equation and use Enough spin that I rarely hit long. I will step into the court and attack shorter shots and hit them flatter, but I play the % and keep the errors down.

I guess you think that the only way to apply pressure is to rip flat low % shots that become a 50-50 chance of winning the point if that or rushing the net. That's great if you are good enough at it and you don't make to many Unforced errors. I apply pressure by continually moving the ball from side to side and hit shots that jump up high, and most guys I play hit a faster flatter ball much better than they do my shots that jump up high even though they are slower. I also will throw in short slices and drop shots after pushing my opponent back with the loopers.

I have won a lot of matches because after a good hour or so my opponents get tired and they also get tired of hitting shots above their shoulders all day. So I don't apply pressure in the same way as a gunslinger type player or a net rusher does but I do apply pressure in a different way.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
simon paterson said:
Everyone seems to be focusing on the hips and shoulder turn. In my opinion (I'm a coach by the way) it's his arm that is the problem. It's way to stiff. There is little or no lag from the wrist. This causes him to hit the ball very close to his body and means his hips and shoulders follow through incorrectly and leave him off balance. It starts well with a semi open stance and the left hand guiding the ball in then the arm comes through and the wrist doesn't snap resulting in his whole body leaning to the left.
^^^ One is a symptom of the other Simon - there is no lag from the wrist because the arm has to drive the shot because the shoulders open too soon because they do not turn enough to create an angel of separation with the hips. Basically - get into a better "load" position and the rest kind of looks after itself!

Good to have some UK coaches on here though :)
 
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