A dirty Sinner or a Jannik high on clay?

How many titles will Jannik Sinner win on clay?


  • Total voters
    6
  • Poll closed .

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Hall of Fame
Jannik Sinner's brilliant final run of 2023 has cemented his status as one of the very best (indoor) hardcourt players. In fact according to Elo only Djokovic is, slightly, ahead of him. Big success on clay has eluded him despite the perception of him was quite different in 2021 when Jeff Sackmann wrote about his missing first serve points:

Finally, the clay-centricity of the list above might be reason to pause before pegging Sinner as an eventual #1. But it also suggests that the teenager is developing exactly the right kind of game to excel on dirt. For the next couple of months, Italian fans will have plenty to get excited about.

His last three seasons on clay have been quite disappointing for many but it masks the fact that he has been performing quite well if you look at stats and Elo. In 2024 clay be a far more important surface than usual as the Olympics are a huge draw for many players including Djokovic, Nadal, Alcaraz and Sinner.*

Jannik's game seems to be suited very well to win a lot on clay. His game relies less on the serve but will profit greatly from the recent improvements. His ability to win return games is in a cluster with the absolute best of the sport and he is one of the best ball strikers on the tour. His backhand has become more solid and more varied and is able to deliver sharper angles and better down the line attacks with high levels of spin. His forehand is tremendous and can be flattened out, delivered with heavy weight or rolled over will lots of spin. Time permitting he likes to run around it to go big inside out or inside in which works generally well on clay.

The combination of his skills and a height of 193 or 6'4'' should allow him to be aggressive against high bouncing balls and to take time away. Resilience against heavy balls must improve as he lost against big ball strikers like Rune, Cerundolo and Altmaier. As one of the best drop shot makers on the tour and a strong net player he can mix the game up nicely against opponents defending very deep against his powerful ground strokes.

There is no doubt that his physical drop offs have cost him wins but Jannik has become more and more athletic as a result of steady improvement. I doubt that he will reach the pure prowess demonstrated by Alcaraz but he has good chances to go a good way down the Djokovic path, becoming a more enduring competitor.

-------------

The give the Clay poll some perspective: Fognini got 8, Thiem 10, Federer 11 and Djokovic at least 18. Nadal has won over 60!! Jannik won't play that many low level clay tournaments as he will focus on the big ones. With Djokovic one of the greatest clay court competitors is still performing at a very high level and Nadal which has him stopped twice at RG will come back while with Alcaraz one of the greatest tennis talents of the last fifty years has arisen at a younger age. Tsitsipas, Zverev and Ruud are still very active and dangerous on the dirt and Rune will improve. Shelton might be more than a dark horse, especially in Madrid.


*The international tennis community seems to undervalue the importance of the Olympic Games for (European) athletes.
 
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2023 CLAY: Total Points Won Percentage

Sinner looks too good with those stats as he has a smaller sample size and faced weaker competition than Alcaraz and Djokovic. Still he should have done much better overall with a more normal outcome. This goes some way to confirm the old Jeff Sackmann observation.

RkPlayer
M​
DR​
Points​
TPW%​
TB W%​
TB/S​
S W%​
G W%​
2Carlos Alcaraz [ESP]
28
1.31​
4131​
55.0%​
50.0%​
8.6%​
81.4%​
61.3%​
4Jannik Sinner [ITA]
11
1.29​
1815​
54.7%​
50.0%​
19.4%​
67.7%​
59.4%​
1Novak Djokovic [SRB]
15
1.29​
2727​
54.5%​
80.0%​
23.3%​
76.7%​
58.4%​
10Taylor Fritz [USA]
17
1.26​
2673​
53.6%​
42.9%​
15.6%​
62.2%​
55.5%​
6Stefanos Tsitsipas [GRE]
22
1.25​
3129​
53.5%​
66.7%​
11.3%​
71.7%​
56.6%​
5Andrey Rublev [RUS]
24
1.20​
3999​
53.3%​
63.6%​
17.7%​
71.0%​
57.1%​
7Alexander Zverev [GER]
27
1.19​
3900​
53.1%​
44.4%​
13.6%​
68.2%​
56.7%​
35Aslan Karatsev [RUS]
18
1.18​
2643​
53.0%​
85.7%​
15.6%​
71.1%​
55.1%​
39Roman Safiullin [RUS]
12
1.16​
1631​
52.7%​
100.0%​
18.5%​
66.7%​
53.5%​
3Daniil Medvedev [RUS]
13
1.13​
2024​
52.6%​
60.0%​
15.6%​
68.8%​
56.2%​
19Nicolas Jarry [CHI]
29
1.17​
4360​
52.4%​
69.2%​
17.8%​
65.8%​
54.1%​
30Tomas Martin Etcheverry [ARG]
32
1.15​
4839​
52.4%​
41.2%​
21.3%​
62.5%​
55.3%​
11Casper Ruud [NOR]
30
1.13​
4729​
52.3%​
61.5%​
16.9%​
67.5%​
55.5%​
18Cameron Norrie [GBR]
25
1.12​
3896​
52.0%​
71.4%​
11.1%​
63.5%​
54.2%​
28Sebastian Baez [ARG]
32
1.13​
4765​
51.9%​
70.0%​
12.8%​
60.3%​
52.8%​
27Lorenzo Musetti [ITA]
27
1.11​
3813​
51.9%​
66.7%​
4.5%​
56.1%​
54.2%​
8Holger Rune [DEN]
20
1.11​
3493​
51.8%​
62.5%​
14.3%​
67.9%​
54.2%​
15Karen Khachanov [RUS]
15
1.13​
2693​
51.8%​
57.1%​
16.3%​
60.5%​
53.2%​
 
I had a bit of fun to bring up the CLAY splits of those four players. Rafa is the King of Clay, Djokovic and also Alcaraz will be considered all-time greats on that surface while Sinner has been rather decent so far. With the fewest games played Jannik had the biggest, but deceiving large performance jump in 2023 while Alcaraz improved certainly a lot based on a good sample size. Djokovic was also above his career best, helped in part by the absence of Rafa and less so Roger.

Interesting that Nadal's 2022 seasons TPW clusters well with the 2023 of other 3 guys. 2024 we will be one of the most interesting clay season in years!

NADAL CLAY Career and 2022 splits​

Split​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Clay
91.0%​
85.5%​
64.0%​
67.3%​
84.5%​
42.9%​
2.9%​
2.0%​
69.7%​
70.4%​
56.9%​
66.3%​
46.8%​
56.2%​
1.39​
Clay
83.3%​
77.1%​
60.7%​
100.0%​
79.4%​
39.8%​
2.8%​
2.9%​
67.1%​
68.8%​
57.8%​
65.2%​
45.4%​
54.9%​
1.30​

DJOKOVIC CLAY Career and 2023​

Split​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Clay
80.6%​
73.9%​
58.9%​
66.0%​
82.0%​
35.4%​
4.9%​
2.6%​
65.8%​
70.7%​
54.1%​
65.0%​
43.7%​
54.2%​
1.25​
Clay
80.0%​
76.7%​
58.6%​
80.0%​
81.0%​
35.3%​
5.9%​
3.1%​
66.9%​
71.6%​
53.2%​
65.5%​
44.5%​
54.5%​
1.29​

ALCARAZ CLAY Career and 2023​

Split​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Clay
82.1%​
73.3%​
58.2%​
61.3%​
80.7%​
35.6%​
3.5%​
2.7%​
66.1%​
69.8%​
53.8%​
64.4%​
43.6%​
53.6%​
1.22​
Clay
89.3%​
81.4%​
61.2%​
50.0%​
82.8%​
39.6%​
4.8%​
2.5%​
67.3%​
69.9%​
56.2%​
65.4%​
45.3%​
55.0%​
1.31​

SINNER CLAY Career and 2023​

Split​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Clay
67.2%​
63.2%​
55.0%​
43.5%​
78.0%​
32.2%​
4.3%​
2.6%​
59.2%​
69.0%​
53.1%​
62.5%​
42.0%​
52.1%​
1.12​
Clay
66.7%​
66.7%​
58.8%​
50.0%​
80.9%​
37.9%​
3.6%​
2.3%​
58.0%​
71.1%​
57.0%​
65.2%​
44.8%​
54.7%​
1.29​
 
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He is so young that it's hard to say.

At his age, Nole had won a Rome title and played Nadal tough in 3 different masters, once going over 4 hr matches. Roger had already started playing hamburgs. Sinner is behind the curve but he won't have someone like Nadal for 15 years so he might achieve much more in coming years. 22 today is also not the same as 22 in Roger's days.
 
He is so young that it's hard to say.

At his age, Nole had won a Rome title and played Nadal tough in 3 different masters, once going over 4 hr matches. Roger had already started playing hamburgs. Sinner is behind the curve but he won't have someone like Nadal for 15 years so he might achieve much more in coming years. 22 today is also not the same as 22 in Roger's days.
I know we like to compare big 3 to Sinner but Sinners trajectory is more a step by step instead of an explosion (similar to Roger). He won a masters title this year. I think it’s reasonable seeing him win multiple masters in 2024 (like 3 or so) and an ATP finals title. If he does that next year he would’ve been 1 masters title less than Djokovic at the same age of 23 and I’m also assuming Sinner wins a slam next year. Sinner will catch up to Nole. I don’t think Sinner will be as bad as Nole in 2010. He will make many masters finals and win a few
 
I know we like to compare big 3 to Sinner but Sinners trajectory is more a step by step instead of an explosion (similar to Roger). He won a masters title this year. I think it’s reasonable seeing him win multiple masters in 2024 (like 3 or so) and an ATP finals title. If he does that next year he would’ve been 1 masters title less than Djokovic at the same age of 23 and I’m also assuming Sinner wins a slam next year. Sinner will catch up to Nole. I don’t think Sinner will be as bad as Nole in 2010. He will make many masters finals and win a few
Yes but Nole had at least part of a reason.
He wins USOpen 2007 and maybe 2008 as well without Federer. He would have a shot at the title at ATP finals in 2010. Stopped by both Fedal but more by Federer early on, he would be sitting at 3 slams and 2 atp finals.

While Sinner lost to everyone in 2021 (Djokovic 2007). Medvedev Tsitsipas Djokovic Nadal Zverev, he was 0-5 vs top 5 and 2-8 vs top 10
In 2022 (Djokovic 2008) he again lost 6 out of 7 top 5 matches. And 2 out of 12 top 10 matches, both wins coming vs Alcaraz who was 19 then.
This year until USOpen end, he was respectable 3-4 vs top 5 and 4-5 vs top 10. Only after USOpen he looked better than the competition.

Sinner may have resume like Nole by 2010 end at the same age, but he would not be in position to win any slams until now. Slams are not everything, he was unable to win any masters until Rogers cup, had 3 worst masters 1000 finals and got ADM in the 4th one where he finally won.

I am not expecting Sinner to ever be like Djokovic. Djokovic was a phenomenon who was stopped because of Fedal and his own health issues. His tennis was up there among the slam winners of any era. As early as 2007 USOpen commentators stated that there is not much to differentiate between Fed and Nole. This was vs a guy who had won 11 out of last 17 slams. And Djokovic was merely 20 years old.

Sinner missed chance to win a slam when the HC GOAT was banned from entering HC slams. He missed to make a single SF on hc slams until today. His lone slam SF came at Wimbledon where he got very lucky with the draw. We will see how he performs in 2024 in slams in 2024. But he is far behind Murray atm.

And we are talking about clay. Let's talk clay. Sinner has played 8 matches vs top 5 on clay, winning only 1 vs Alcaraz in Umag. He has 5 top 10 wins on clay, 2 vs Rublev, 1 vs Zverev, 1 vs Tsitsipas and 1 vs Alcaraz. That's really good. He is beating guys his own gen and guys just few years older already. He is already ahead of Andy Murray on this surface though, Andy didn't have a top 5 win on clay until he was 28 years old. He would also most likely be better than Wawrinka who got his first top 5 clay win after turning 24.


I think he would probably be able to accomplish Murray + Wawrinka like career on clay.
So 13 titles.
Extra 9 finals.
1 RG
Extra 2 RG finals
All three masters once

Overall not bad at all on clay.
 
Yes but Nole had at least part of a reason.
He wins USOpen 2007 and maybe 2008 as well without Federer. He would have a shot at the title at ATP finals in 2010. Stopped by both Fedal but more by Federer early on, he would be sitting at 3 slams and 2 atp finals.

While Sinner lost to everyone in 2021 (Djokovic 2007). Medvedev Tsitsipas Djokovic Nadal Zverev, he was 0-5 vs top 5 and 2-8 vs top 10
In 2022 (Djokovic 2008) he again lost 6 out of 7 top 5 matches. And 2 out of 12 top 10 matches, both wins coming vs Alcaraz who was 19 then.
This year until USOpen end, he was respectable 3-4 vs top 5 and 4-5 vs top 10. Only after USOpen he looked better than the competition.

Sinner may have resume like Nole by 2010 end at the same age, but he would not be in position to win any slams until now. Slams are not everything, he was unable to win any masters until Rogers cup, had 3 worst masters 1000 finals and got ADM in the 4th one where he finally won.

I am not expecting Sinner to ever be like Djokovic. Djokovic was a phenomenon who was stopped because of Fedal and his own health issues. His tennis was up there among the slam winners of any era. As early as 2007 USOpen commentators stated that there is not much to differentiate between Fed and Nole. This was vs a guy who had won 11 out of last 17 slams. And Djokovic was merely 20 years old.

Sinner missed chance to win a slam when the HC GOAT was banned from entering HC slams. He missed to make a single SF on hc slams until today. His lone slam SF came at Wimbledon where he got very lucky with the draw. We will see how he performs in 2024 in slams in 2024. But he is far behind Murray atm.

And we are talking about clay. Let's talk clay. Sinner has played 8 matches vs top 5 on clay, winning only 1 vs Alcaraz in Umag. He has 5 top 10 wins on clay, 2 vs Rublev, 1 vs Zverev, 1 vs Tsitsipas and 1 vs Alcaraz. That's really good. He is beating guys his own gen and guys just few years older already. He is already ahead of Andy Murray on this surface though, Andy didn't have a top 5 win on clay until he was 28 years old. He would also most likely be better than Wawrinka who got his first top 5 clay win after turning 24.


I think he would probably be able to accomplish Murray + Wawrinka like career on clay.
So 13 titles.
Extra 9 finals.
1 RG
Extra 2 RG finals
All three masters once

Overall not bad at all on clay.
Reasonable. Roland Garros will be very hard for Sinner to win. But there’s no doubt in my mind he’ll be the best on hard court when Nole retires
 
Yes but Nole had at least part of a reason.
He wins USOpen 2007 and maybe 2008 as well without Federer. He would have a shot at the title at ATP finals in 2010. Stopped by both Fedal but more by Federer early on, he would be sitting at 3 slams and 2 atp finals.

While Sinner lost to everyone in 2021 (Djokovic 2007). Medvedev Tsitsipas Djokovic Nadal Zverev, he was 0-5 vs top 5 and 2-8 vs top 10
In 2022 (Djokovic 2008) he again lost 6 out of 7 top 5 matches. And 2 out of 12 top 10 matches, both wins coming vs Alcaraz who was 19 then.
This year until USOpen end, he was respectable 3-4 vs top 5 and 4-5 vs top 10. Only after USOpen he looked better than the competition.

Sinner may have resume like Nole by 2010 end at the same age, but he would not be in position to win any slams until now. Slams are not everything, he was unable to win any masters until Rogers cup, had 3 worst masters 1000 finals and got ADM in the 4th one where he finally won.

I am not expecting Sinner to ever be like Djokovic. Djokovic was a phenomenon who was stopped because of Fedal and his own health issues. His tennis was up there among the slam winners of any era. As early as 2007 USOpen commentators stated that there is not much to differentiate between Fed and Nole. This was vs a guy who had won 11 out of last 17 slams. And Djokovic was merely 20 years old.

Sinner missed chance to win a slam when the HC GOAT was banned from entering HC slams. He missed to make a single SF on hc slams until today. His lone slam SF came at Wimbledon where he got very lucky with the draw. We will see how he performs in 2024 in slams in 2024. But he is far behind Murray atm.

And we are talking about clay. Let's talk clay. Sinner has played 8 matches vs top 5 on clay, winning only 1 vs Alcaraz in Umag. He has 5 top 10 wins on clay, 2 vs Rublev, 1 vs Zverev, 1 vs Tsitsipas and 1 vs Alcaraz. That's really good. He is beating guys his own gen and guys just few years older already. He is already ahead of Andy Murray on this surface though, Andy didn't have a top 5 win on clay until he was 28 years old. He would also most likely be better than Wawrinka who got his first top 5 clay win after turning 24.


I think he would probably be able to accomplish Murray + Wawrinka like career on clay.
So 13 titles.
Extra 9 finals.
1 RG
Extra 2 RG finals
All three masters once

Overall not bad at all on clay.
What do you predict for Sinner in 2024 on clay? Results in the masters and slams?

MC
Madrid
Rome
Roland Garros
Olympics
 
I am not sure. This will be entirely dependent on the draw. But I think Tsitsipas is coming back next year especially on clay. He could win many big ones.
I’m gonna be honest with you. I don’t see Tsitsipas winning a masters title ever again. The guy only has 10 titles at 25 and Sinner and Carlos are better players than him. I just can’t see him winning another 1000 masters. He hasn’t improved, never even has a season above 80% win rate
 
I am not sure. This will be entirely dependent on the draw. But I think Tsitsipas is coming back next year especially on clay. He could win many big ones.
Oh forgot to say my predictions:

Monte Carlo - SF and over
Rome - Final/W
Madrid - Crashes out early - pollen allergy (max QF)

Roland Garros - Semi
Olympic - QF/4th place/bronze medal
 
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The 2024 clay season was crowned by the great golden run and I was looking at some stats. Here we have the best 15 with >10 matches against the top 100 on the dirt, according the total points won. We have many small clay events, some high up, some early, some with a great field, some with a lonely one. Don't get hung upon precise numbers as the sample is sometimes too small and look at rough trends!

Big serve plus players are doing well to go to clay events, more so if they are at altitude and fast. Khachanov, Tsitsipas, Struff and Berrettini are very often getting and winning in tiebreaks. Sinner and Alcaraz stand out in so far that Sinner played so very few tiebreaks and Alcaraz so many. Sinner played most on the slowest clay and a few on the fastest, all on the master plus level, while Alcaraz went to South America too.

Djokovic did actually very well performance-wise which indicates good physical preparation and focus on the golden clay swing!

RkPlayer
M​
DR​
Points​
TPW%​
TB W%​
TB/S​
S W%​
1Jannik Sinner [ITA]
12
1.38​
2005​
55.3%​
50.0%​
5.7%​
77.1%​
4Novak Djokovic [SRB]
16
1.26​
2445​
54.6%​
75.0%​
9.8%​
75.6%​
3Alexander Zverev [GER]
23
1.29​
3691​
53.6%​
71.4%​
11.5%​
70.5%​
2Carlos Alcaraz [ESP]
15
1.19​
2480​
53.2%​
55.6%​
22.0%​
73.2%​
42Matteo Berrettini [ITA]
11
1.30​
1590​
53.1%​
88.9%​
37.5%​
83.3%​
40Jan Lennard Struff [GER]
16
1.20​
2531​
52.9%​
87.5%​
20.5%​
71.8%​
11Stefanos Tsitsipas [GRE]
26
1.17​
3958​
52.9%​
54.5%​
16.9%​
72.3%​
13Tommy Paul [USA]
12
1.17​
1852​
52.9%​
75.0%​
13.3%​
66.7%​
9Alex De Minaur [AUS]
13
1.17​
1992​
52.8%​
0.0%​
5.7%​
62.9%​
8Casper Ruud [NOR]
28
1.15​
4220​
52.7%​
100.0%​
6.8%​
67.1%​
7Andrey Rublev [RUS]
14
1.18​
2435​
52.7%​
20.0%​
13.9%​
61.1%​
21Felix Auger Aliassime [CAN]
20
1.17​
2704​
52.4%​
40.0%​
10.9%​
58.7%​
26Karen Khachanov [RUS]
11
1.15​
1708​
52.3%​
50.0%​
15.4%​
69.2%​
6Taylor Fritz [USA]
20
1.10​
3137​
52.2%​
42.9%​
13.0%​
57.4%​
5Daniil Medvedev [RUS]
15
1.12​
2229​
52.0%​
75.0%​
10.8%​
62.2%​
 
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Just for reference, the players winning the highest percentage of points at the master plus slam level over the last three years:

RkPlayer
M​
DR​
TPW%​
TB W%​
TB/S​
S W%​
4Novak Djokovic [SRB]
103
1.35​
55.0%​
80.8%​
17.0%​
79.4%​
1Jannik Sinner [ITA]
141
1.28​
54.1%​
64.8%​
13.2%​
74.3%​
2Carlos Alcaraz [ESP]
133
1.27​
53.8%​
60.6%​
17.2%​
75.7%​
6Taylor Fritz [USA]
114
1.19​
52.8%​
60.7%​
16.7%​
65.7%​
5Daniil Medvedev [RUS]
123
1.16​
52.6%​
64.9%​
16.3%​
68.6%​
3Alexander Zverev [GER]
120
1.18​
52.5%​
65.2%​
20.1%​
67.6%​
7Andrey Rublev [RUS]
111
1.16​
52.3%​
46.9%​
15.2%​
63.7%​
9Alex De Minaur [AUS]
94
1.14​
52.2%​
55.3%​
14.3%​
62.4%​
10Grigor Dimitrov [BUL]
103
1.16​
52.2%​
57.6%​
21.1%​
63.2%​
11Stefanos Tsitsipas [GRE]
118
1.14​
52.2%​
56.8%​
22.2%​
65.0%​
13Tommy Paul [USA]
99
1.12​
52.0%​
51.1%​
15.9%​
61.8%​
8Casper Ruud [NOR]
103
1.13​
52.0%​
64.3%​
18.4%​
62.0%​
12Hubert Hurkacz [POL]
108
1.12​
51.7%​
51.6%​
28.4%​
60.3%​
26Karen Khachanov [RUS]
87
1.08​
51.2%​
63.2%​
14.8%​
57.8%​
19Jack Draper [GBR]
51
1.05​
51.0%​
40.0%​
10.5%​
57.3%​
15Frances Tiafoe [USA]
86
1.06​
50.9%​
52.5%​
22.9%​
59.3%​
21Felix Auger Aliassime [CAN]
80
1.05​
50.8%​
57.1%​
18.8%​
53.1%​
17Ben Shelton [USA]
64
1.05​
50.8%​
51.0%​
24.7%​
56.1%​
38Brandon Nakashima [USA]
54
1.05​
50.7%​
45.9%​
23.3%​
50.3%​
41Gael Monfils [FRA]
56
1.05​
50.7%​
60.9%​
15.1%​
56.6%​
14Holger Rune [DEN]
92
1.03​
50.5%​
67.5%​
15.0%​
59.9%​

This is to get a large sample anchor to benchmark against other selections!
 
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