A Federer fan and a Djokovic fan rewatch the 2009 Wimbledon final

yeah, that was a pretty good 2nd serve.



agree on the Wim 08 4th set TB (nadal DFed and missed a makeable BH - a UFE), but not necessarily on the 2015 Wim TB. djoko didn't miss any shot as easy as roddick's BH volley.
he clearly tightened up on several of the rallies late there and gave Federer life, considering Federer was a lot worse and hanging on by a thread, that's worse in my book. Let me revisit it.

0-0, lets a return go, a great return, but something of a brainfart.
6-4, rolls back some attackable balls, last FH isn't trivial, but definitely makeable.
6-5 on his own serve, hits the first FH off an absolute sitter back within the service box, yeah Fed hits a great BH but that's nerves, definitely no better than the 6-6 point in 2009.
9-8 on Fed's serve, pretty tentative 2nd serve return
10-9, on his serve, similar story to 6-4, neglects to take charge, gets stuck behind the baseline, except the missed FH is a clear UFE.
10-10, extremely tentative FH into the net, with the whole court open, completely mishits it, return depth was nothing special, this is definitely worse than anything Roddick did in 2009.

All these points are worse than 6-2, on par with 6-6, and at least one is worse than even 6-5. Roddick made a UFE on the set point too, but we can cancel that with the 10-9 UFE.

Definitely more questionably moments there than the 2009 TB, albeit it was a bit longer, and the 10-10 FH was worse than the volley hands down I think. But on the flip side, Fed gave him many more freebies in that TB as well whereas Roddick earned pretty much everything he got in 2009 with huge serves and a very good BH.
 
5th set. This is where I disagree the most.

Should note that as the set goes on, the serving--as well as most other aspects of these players' games--deteriorates. With the exception of Roddick's returning, it doesn't ever reach "bad," but the decline is noticeable.


Rest of the set continues like the first half, but with a lower overall quality, again wrought by fatigue.

the 5th set was pretty good till the last couple of games. And the last game, lets see ->

There's nothing he does particularly outstanding: all six of the points he wins are won with neutral unforced errors from Roddick, some of them dreadful. Match does end on a whimper.

0-0: fed hits the fh return deep off the 1st serve, putting Roddick on the move. that's a forced error. Note this is off a first serve.
0-15: the shank from roddick makes it look worse than it was. makeable fh, but not a how could he miss that fh type. since it was fairly deep.
0-30: unret
15-30: unret
30-30: unret
40-30: roddick misses BH. UE clearly.
40-40: unret
AD-40: fed hits the I/O FH return deep off the 1st serve. Roddick has to dig out the bh. that's a forced error. Note this is off a first serve.
40-40: dropshot bh return by fed (not timed well). roddick misses the fh at the net. this one is a truly bad miss.
40-AD: federer drives the bh with sufficient pace and depth. a forced error though Roddick's fh shank might mislead people to think this was unforced.

I see 3 UFEs (the 2nd point, the 6th point and the penultimate one).
there was literally nothing fed could've done on the 4 unreturnables (all off 1st serves). he got the returns in perfectly on 2 others to force the error. the last point as well, the error was forced.
 
he clearly tightened up on several of the rallies late there and gave Federer life, considering Federer was a lot worse and hanging on by a thread, that's worse in my book. Let me revisit it.

0-0, lets a return go, a great return, but something of a brainfart.
6-4, rolls back some attackable balls, last FH isn't trivial, but definitely makeable.
6-5 on his own serve, hits the first FH off an absolute sitter back within the service box, yeah Fed hits a great BH but that's nerves, definitely no better than the 6-6 point in 2009.
9-8 on Fed's serve, pretty tentative 2nd serve return
10-9, on his serve, similar story to 6-4, neglects to take charge, gets stuck behind the baseline, except the missed FH is a clear UFE.
10-10, extremely tentative FH into the net, with the whole court open, completely mishits it, return depth was nothing special, this is definitely worse than anything Roddick did in 2009.

All these points are worse than 6-2, on par with 6-6, and at least one is worse than even 6-5. Roddick made a UFE on the set point too, but we can cancel that with the 10-9 UFE.

Definitely more questionably moments there than the 2009 TB, albeit it was a bit longer, and the 10-10 FH was worse than the volley hands down I think. But on the flip side, Fed gave him many more freebies in that TB as well whereas Roddick earned pretty much everything he got in 2009 with huge serves and a very good BH.

its late here. will get to this tomorrow.
 
I found it incredulous lol. I find the idea that it's a 7/10 match crazy too, with serving that good they'd have to be 5's off the ground for that to be the case - which is obviously not true lol.
I assume the lowest you could see is 8.5?
 
WB 09 final is certainly a good match, it just never gets rated correctly either way because reasons. I actually feel, in a way, it's something more non-Fed fans could enjoy as an instance of winning ugly (ha). The tennis may look clunky compared to freeflowerer masterpieces but has solid quality to get the job done. Roddick in particular looks strained as he always does yet makes it work, unlike the flopgen mugs.
 
Haha is that what the spreadsheet has me at. Yeah seems fair enough to me. Question for fans of this match. What did Roddick do significantly better than Kyrgios? Certainly not serve as Kyrgios had more aces at a higher percentage in a shorter match against a better returner and on apparently a far slower court. Roddick has the clear better FH but Kyrgios has the clear better BH. Both returned poorly both had averageish movement solid volleys. Roddick was more clutch and that matters for big server matches on grass so on that basis he has the edge but it’s an edge. No one considers this years Wimbledon final a classic or anywhere near it so how do we explain that?
I mean, 2009 Fed > 2022 Djokovic, so Roddick was much more than just marginally impressive. Nick doesn't push Fed that hard.
 
Probably not an uncommon take I’m just asking why. I think 6.5 makes sense for Nick but again other than superior mental game I’m not seeing much separation for Roddick. If anything Nick served better. Roddick has a small edge off the ground as his FH is the best ground stroke but his BH is also the weakest of the 4 and far weaker than Nick’s. Even their runs are similar with lots of struggles against middling opponents. I don’t think Kyrgios is underrated I just think Roddick is overrated.
Roddick's opponents a hundred times better than Nick's, mate. Even hip Hewitt was better than anyone Nick faced by a long distance.
 
I also note that I just rewatched the fourth set for sampling and must agree with abjerk's assessment of Roddick hitting only 3 UEs in it, a remarkably clean set from him indeed. Fed's number is more debatable with 6-7 being sensible but this also excludes a couple unduly weak shots that may not be categorised as unforced errors but clearly give the opponent useful advantage (in particular, the shanked FH allowing Roddick to approach and gain BP) so his performance was questionable to an extent.

The combination of playing a shaky game to get broken and not even getting to BP on return despite some chances renders this set less than good for Federer, let's call it ok to decent - better than meh for sure. Good to great set from Roddick's perspective as he was invariably clutch both to break and deny breaking.
 
I also note that I just rewatched the fourth set for sampling and must agree with abjerk's assessment of Roddick hitting only 3 UEs in it, a remarkably clean set from him indeed. Fed's number is more debatable with 6-7 being sensible but this also excludes a couple unduly weak shots that may not be categorised as unforced errors but clearly give the opponent useful advantage (in particular, the shanked FH allowing Roddick to approach and gain BP) so his performance was questionable to an extent.

The combination of playing a shaky game to get broken and not even getting to BP on return despite some chances renders this set less than good for Federer, let's call it ok to decent - better than meh for sure. Good to great set from Roddick's perspective as he was invariably clutch both to break and deny breaking.
We can call it a mediocre set from Federer, the game to get broken was weak, but he played one of those in 2007 (even worse) and two of them in 2008 to begin the match, not when up 2-1, so clearly 07-09 Fed could be a bit prone to lapse especially up 2-1 that peak Fed. 2008 of course stands out for all the wrong reasons, as usual. I don't think 03-06 Fed played any sets at or below that level, even 2nd set of 04 (since you have to account that he was up 2 breaks, largely gift, so the resulting breaks with Roddick redlining are more understandable, he never trailed at least).

2012 also played a worse set to start the match, I don't hold that against him necessarily since he was old and took a while to going although even against Djokovic such a hole would have been hard to dig out of, but of course many mugs would put 2012 at or over 2009.
 
We can call it a mediocre set from Federer, the game to get broken was weak, but he played one of those in 2007 (even worse) and two of them in 2008 to begin the match, not when up 2-1, so clearly 07-09 Fed could be a bit prone to lapse especially up 2-1 that peak Fed. 2008 of course stands out for all the wrong reasons, as usual. I don't think 03-06 Fed played any sets at or below that level, even 2nd set of 04 (since you have to account that he was up 2 breaks, largely gift, so the resulting breaks with Roddick redlining are more understandable, he never trailed at least).

2012 also played a worse set to start the match, I don't hold that against him necessarily since he was old and took a while to going although even against Djokovic such a hole would have been hard to dig out of, but of course many mugs would put 2012 at or over 2009.

The break at the start of the second set in 06 was a nice semi-gift although Nadal came up with massive passes to bring it up but the forehand shank on BP was roflmao. Tells us?
Yes yes yes, everyone else has been even worse so tennis is a game of mugs that we enjoy for incomprehensible reasons with Fred at the top of the mug pile.

I can certainly see Fed 09>08 due to extensive mental disgustery in the latter (shouldn't be a slight on Nadal though). Not so for 07 since although Fed gave away the fourth set, his base level in other sets seemed somewhat higher than in 09 and his peak was definitely higher as the fifth set peakness attests.

2012 had a fairly poor first set from Fred and that weighs it down. The last three sets might have just been a tad better than 09, surely in the same ballpark, but the first set is significant and the second set wasn't convincing for most of it either so it is clear Federer would be more likely to go two sets down in his 12 form than 09 where the credit for almost going two sets up rests more with Roddick. Murray was mildly better than Roddick off the ground I reckon but the serving difference is immense and effectively takes Murray out of contention since he's still clear inferior to Fed but can't clutchbot his way like Roddick did.
 
The break at the start of the second set in 06 was a nice semi-gift although Nadal came up with massive passes to bring it up but the forehand shank on BP was roflmao. Tells us?
Yes yes yes, everyone else has been even worse so tennis is a game of mugs that we enjoy for incomprehensible reasons with Fred at the top of the mug pile.

I can certainly see Fed 09>08 due to extensive mental disgustery in the latter (shouldn't be a slight on Nadal though). Not so for 07 since although Fed gave away the fourth set, his base level in other sets seemed somewhat higher than in 09 and his peak was definitely higher as the fifth set peakness attests.

2012 had a fairly poor first set from Fred and that weighs it down. The last three sets might have just been a tad better than 09, surely in the same ballpark, but the first set is significant and the second set wasn't convincing for most of it either so it is clear Federer would be more likely to go two sets down in his 12 form than 09 where the credit for almost going two sets up rests more with Roddick. Murray was mildly better than Roddick off the ground I reckon but the serving difference is immense and effectively takes Murray out of contention since he's still clear inferior to Fed but can't clutchbot his way like Roddick did.
09 was better at everything than 12, just facing an opponent who was much harder to dispatch so I don't see the last 3 sets being better. 12 Fed will get into the same serving contest with Roddick except his return is worse and that would make it even harder for him at end of sets. Plus due to older age, more prone to a lapse in concentration if the match starts to get long or tight.

07>09>=08 is reasonable as 08/09 have similar base level but 09 was more confident and 08 mugged it up in ways that maybe can't be attributed solely to Nadal, although much of it certainly was. But it's hard to draw the line in 2008 of what Nadal did and what was his general level. Obviously he was roflmao in many B03 losses, in ways that went even beyond the 09/10 B03 failings, at RG was unconvincing against other opponents, and at Wimby didn't face anyone anyone really capable. Would Wimby have looked like USO without Nadal or was it the summer training block that gave Federer a bit more pep in his step to play like he did against Djokovic at USO? Who knows. 09 AO can be comfortably solely pinned on The Nadal however.
 
10K or whatever words here and no mention of the playing surface?

It's hard to take people who talk about this match seriously when they wax poetic about the mug level on return and ground without bringing that up.

I don’t think that’s fair considering you’ve neglected to mention the role of weather/roughness around the baseline in that final before (which TS actually does talk about here). Wasn’t it @abmk that changed your perspective on it? I recall you saying before that Fed returned poorly that match and was missing easy groundstrokes, sans any qualifiers.
 
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I don’t think that’s fair considering you’ve also neglected to mention the role of weather/roughness around the baseline in that final before. Wasn’t it @abmk that changed your perspective on it? I recall you saying before that Fed returned poorly that match and was missing easy groundstrokes, sans any qualifiers.
no, I've maintained this for a long time and remembered watching the match thinking this.

I don't think I've ever been that negative on the 09 final.
 
Good match.

Good opening post.

Unfortunately I just don’t have the strength for the rest of the thread at this point, but I will say that this match continues to prove my thesis that learning from previous matchups makes a huge difference in tennis. This match isn’t anywhere near the same without the ‘04 match and especially the ‘05 one. A culmination of Roddick applying all of his learnings and pouring his heart and soul to matching Fed on center court. And he did match him, step for step, an impressive feat that unfortunately makes it such a crushing loss for him. The fact that he easily, easily could have won with just a couple points going his way, the fact that it went to 16-14… imo it’s up there with the most devastating loss in tennis history. Probably stands alone as THE most devastating in the modern era, and that’s because it represents not just the singular tournament, it perfectly encapsulates all that came before.
 
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So it’s no secret that the 2009 Wimbledon final between Federer and Roddick (yes, another Roddick thread) has gained somewhat of a controversial reputation around here, at least in the past year or so. Some hail it as one of the greatest matches of all time, others label it a glorified servefest. Whichever opinion one holds seems to be contingent on which fanbase they belong to. @The Guru and I felt that it was about time for a rewatch of the entire match and so we did exactly that and compiled a bunch of notes on the final. Our opinions of the match differ in some respects as he’s a Djokovic fan and I’m a Federer fan but I like to think this was a pretty honest and genuine way of approaching the match and I hope our analyses will lead to some interesting discussion on its merits and faults. We wrote a lot, though, so I understand it’s a tricky read. If you want to watch the final for yourselves, it’s available in full on the Wimbledon YouTube channel. Without further ado…

Third Serve’s Analysis:


Overall Summary:

This match hangs on two distinct aspects: the serve-return complex and the big points. Everything else comes secondary, and not by a short distance either. That's not to say that things like forehands, backhands, movement, and volleys are unimportant here but much greater emphasis than usual is placed on those first two areas of the game. A part of it is because of the surface (which, to my eyes, seems a little quicker than 2007 or 2008) but part of it comes down to the players themselves.

Let's get the obvious out of the way first. Both players serve very well. This is one of Federer's finer serving performances at Wimbledon. He bangs down aces and unreturnables at a high frequency, his serve percentage is pretty good (64% for the match), his placement is solid, his second serving is even weapon-level strong most of the time, and he still keeps the double faults low. But while Federer serves great, Roddick serves amazingly. He serves at 70% which is a stunningly high number by anyone's standards. One might think Andy took a little bit off the serve to get his numbers up that high; he most certainly doesn't. Roddick's first serves regularly hit the 130mph mark and a not insignificant number of them cross 140... even his second serves clock in at the 110s. Good placement on them too.

In fact, let's talk about the placement for a second because it partly explains a curious statistic: Fed's ahead in the ace tally by a massive margin, 51 to 27. I mean, he does serve well, but on that shot alone, Roddick clearly does better. So why are the ace counts the way they are? Part of it has to do with the placement of the serves from both players. Fed goes out wide or down the T roughly an equal number of times, and he does so well that it's often tricky to get a racket on them. On the other side, Roddick employs a relatively high proportion of body serves--he hits about as many of those as he does wide serves, just looking at the numbers. About midway through the second set, my feed pulled up a graphic showing that Roddick did change his serving patterns from the 2004 final. There, he went wide most of the time, but here there are far more body or T serves. Fed does get his racket on these body serves (of course) but they either go unreturned or they extract weak responses for Roddick to punish. This explains the ace differential a little bit.

The other thing that explains it is that Roddick does not return well at all. Granted, he's up against a tough serve and anyone would struggle with that, but let's just say that Roddick was dealt a bad hand here and played it meekly. Fed's serve is a little closer to the mortal realm than Roddick's and a decent portion of his serves are at the very least returnable. Still, even when it's those serves that come into play, Roddick hits a high number of return errors, many of them very clearly unforced. There's also a good bit of what I'm inclined to think is tanking on the return. Once down 30-0 or 40-0, Roddick occasionally just stops trying to go for it and lets aces slip by. He's not a natural returner in the first place but I will say it's a little disheartening to see how that part of his game has fallen from the balls-to-the-wall second serve returning he put up in the 2004 final. This won't be the last comparison to that match. One more thing is that Roddick doesn't move very much on the return. Fed at least glides around the court somewhat to line himself into position and give himself a puncher's chance at returning the serve, but Roddick's feet are essentially cinder blocks a good majority of the time.

Fed doesn't return super well either. Unlike Roddick's which is decidedly below par, however, Fed's return is just pretty average. He's up against legitimately GOAT-tier serving which has to factor into the analysis and given that, in a vacuum he doesn't return badly: there's just some room for work. It's a little bit better than I remembered but not by much. I am pretty confident now that the returning he displayed in this final was at least a half-step up from that in the previous year's final, though. It's mostly due to the significantly fewer F-ups on the second serve.

Now I say "in a vacuum" because by Fed's personal standards this is a bad returning-the-Roddick-serve day. Throughout his career, Fed possessed a truly uncanny ability to read Roddick's serve in a manner that I don't think anyone except maybe a peak Djokovic (and we never really saw Roddick vs. Djokovic peak to peak so even this is unproven) could equal. It didn't really matter whenever Roddick had a good serving day (2004 final) or a not-so-good one (2003 semifinal). Fed would consistently return his serve back with interest and neutralize much of the advantage Roddick was supposed to have obtained. Here, though, it seems like he's forgotten his magic. Of course, Roddick is serving at pretty much his absolute best here, a step over their previous encounters at Wimbledon, but the difference is not so significant as to excuse Fed not breaking Andy's serve all the way up until the penultimate game of the match. One does wonder if Roddick's change in serving pattern had to do with some of it, though, given the graph from earlier.

Speaking of breaks, what's up with Roddick breaking the Federer serve twice in two separate sets? He was supposed to have the worse return, correct? Well, that is undeniably true, but what's also true is that Roddick plays a clutch match on the whole. With one infamous exception, he takes his opportunities wherever he finds them, so if Fed slips up just a little bit during his service games, Roddick almost invariably pounces. On the reverse side, whenever Roddick has the rare prolonged service game, he weathers the storm with perfect, clutch serving and denies Fed a break (there's a small bit of Fed making errors in those moments but the outcome is mostly on Roddick). Even the one break he does surrender at the end comes down not to mentality but to stamina. Were it not for Roddick absolutely bombing serves down throughout the whole ordeal and playing the big points well, this match would likely have been a straightforward (something like the 2006 US Open final I imagine) win for Fed... because aside from those two things, Fed leads Roddick in pretty much every aspect of the game, and not by small margins either.
Just chiming in to say these are pretty much the best threads on TTW. Keep it up!
 
Heck of a read, might go back and watch that final again.

I try to avoid watching that match, because of Roddick's heartbreak.
 
I still maintain my opinion it was a high quality match but nice to see a different view from some people as long as it is not in bad faith.
 
09 was better at everything than 12, just facing an opponent who was much harder to dispatch so I don't see the last 3 sets being better. 12 Fed will get into the same serving contest with Roddick except his return is worse and that would make it even harder for him at end of sets. Plus due to older age, more prone to a lapse in concentration if the match starts to get long or tight.

07>09>=08 is reasonable as 08/09 have similar base level but 09 was more confident and 08 mugged it up in ways that maybe can't be attributed solely to Nadal, although much of it certainly was. But it's hard to draw the line in 2008 of what Nadal did and what was his general level. Obviously he was roflmao in many B03 losses, in ways that went even beyond the 09/10 B03 failings, at RG was unconvincing against other opponents, and at Wimby didn't face anyone anyone really capable. Would Wimby have looked like USO without Nadal or was it the summer training block that gave Federer a bit more pep in his step to play like he did against Djokovic at USO? Who knows. 09 AO can be comfortably solely pinned on The Nadal however.
09 Roddick > 12 Fed on grass?

Wins 6/10 times?
 
09 was better at everything than 12, just facing an opponent who was much harder to dispatch so I don't see the last 3 sets being better. 12 Fed will get into the same serving contest with Roddick except his return is worse and that would make it even harder for him at end of sets. Plus due to older age, more prone to a lapse in concentration if the match starts to get long or tight.

07>09>=08 is reasonable as 08/09 have similar base level but 09 was more confident and 08 mugged it up in ways that maybe can't be attributed solely to Nadal, although much of it certainly was. But it's hard to draw the line in 2008 of what Nadal did and what was his general level. Obviously he was roflmao in many B03 losses, in ways that went even beyond the 09/10 B03 failings, at RG was unconvincing against other opponents, and at Wimby didn't face anyone anyone really capable. Would Wimby have looked like USO without Nadal or was it the summer training block that gave Federer a bit more pep in his step to play like he did against Djokovic at USO? Who knows. 09 AO can be comfortably solely pinned on The Nadal however.

I'd actually flip it around. Wim 08 more due to Nadal than AO 09. First 2 sets of the Wim 08 final. Hamburg 08 final and RG 08 final lead to it. Fed also faced safin who was playing competently, though not great.

Dumping 2nd serve returns, bh exposed and rushed approaches - Nadal.
Give Djokovic of Wim 15 in that place (similar level) and fed edges it out.

AO 09 - returned well, bh held up, not many rushed approaches.
Only serving wasn't good which is due to back issues in that period leading to inconsistency (not good in Nadal/Berdych matches, but good in delpo/Roddick matches). Not getting enough free points on serve took a toll by the 5th set. Give Djokovic of similar level at AO and fed still loses in the 5th set
 
he clearly tightened up on several of the rallies late there and gave Federer life, considering Federer was a lot worse and hanging on by a thread, that's worse in my book. Let me revisit it.

0-0, lets a return go, a great return, but something of a brainfart.
6-4, rolls back some attackable balls, last FH isn't trivial, but definitely makeable.
6-5 on his own serve, hits the first FH off an absolute sitter back within the service box, yeah Fed hits a great BH but that's nerves, definitely no better than the 6-6 point in 2009.
9-8 on Fed's serve, pretty tentative 2nd serve return
10-9, on his serve, similar story to 6-4, neglects to take charge, gets stuck behind the baseline, except the missed FH is a clear UFE.
10-10, extremely tentative FH into the net, with the whole court open, completely mishits it, return depth was nothing special, this is definitely worse than anything Roddick did in 2009.

All these points are worse than 6-2, on par with 6-6, and at least one is worse than even 6-5. Roddick made a UFE on the set point too, but we can cancel that with the 10-9 UFE.

Definitely more questionably moments there than the 2009 TB, albeit it was a bit longer, and the 10-10 FH was worse than the volley hands down I think. But on the flip side, Fed gave him many more freebies in that TB as well whereas Roddick earned pretty much everything he got in 2009 with huge serves and a very good BH.

I was thinking more from up 6-2/6-3 respectively.
0-0: agree
6-4: makeable, but he went for the fh
6-5: disagree, fed was in the middle, anticipated correctly. trying to get the angle more meant taking a little pace off
9-8: yeah, not too dissimilar from roddick's slice off fed's return. But Roddick atleast compensated with the running fh
10-9: well that is FH UE at an odd angle.
10-10: FH UE that. But not worse than Roddick's BH volley miss

the one important distinction is Roddick would've won the point had he hit the BH volley, not necessarily the case with the misses from Djokovic at 10-9 and 10-10.

Fed did miss a FH in the 2009 TB at 0-1. But yeah, the quality of 2015 Wim TB is a little worse than what I remember on re-watch.

the last 3 points mentioned above in the Djokovic TB
and the last 3 points of the 09 TB all had flaws that cost - missed BH volley, questionable approach, BH UE

Roddick played flawless till going up 6-2. Djokovic not so while going up 6-3.. But from up SPs, Djokovic played less worse.
 
I'd actually flip it around. Wim 08 more due to Nadal than AO 09. First 2 sets of the Wim 08 final. Hamburg 08 final and RG 08 final lead to it. Fed also faced safin who was playing competently, though not great.

Dumping 2nd serve returns, bh exposed and rushed approaches - Nadal.
Give Djokovic of Wim 15 in that place (similar level) and fed edges it out.

AO 09 - returned well, bh held up, not many rushed approaches.
Only serving wasn't good which is due to back issues in that period leading to inconsistency (not good in Nadal/Berdych matches, but good in delpo/Roddick matches). Not getting enough free points on serve took a toll by the 5th set. Give Djokovic of similar level at AO and fed still loses in the 5th set
Not sure, in addition to serve, Federer was more tentative and indecisive off the ground when he had a chance to really take a lead, but played more freely when behind in the score. Plus Federer's serve got off to a slow start against Berdych but eventually was quite good, and overall not close to the disaster that was the final on serve. That type of serving in the final would have been a godsend.

08 Fed could certainly beat Djokovic even being a bit down off the ground just because the gap on grass at base level is pretty large. At AO that's obviously not the case, but question is whether Fed would have served better at 09 AO and played more confidently against a different opponent, and I think he would have. At 08 Wimby he would have played better against a different opponent, but just in a direct comparison against the same opponent, 09 AO was clearly better off the ground in all respects even accounting for the huge surface gap. Plus, 09 AO at least played freely when down, 08 even down a set collapsed and put himself in the grave. So that points to some additional things being wrong in 08, and indeed Fed only put forth his normal performances in USO SF/F, besides that he didn't really have a signature performance all year. Yes, 08 fought much harder in the fifth set, but of course being on grass it makes it easier to do that on serve. He was still getting beaten badly from the ground in the 5th and was a disaster on return. But if anything that is just more evidence that 09 AO the mental effect was bigger than 08 Wimby (because it came from 08 Wimby). The overall point is that Fed at least had stretches of clearly outplaying Nadal in 09 AO, even if they mostly came when he was down. But in 2008 even when he was down he could not really play that convincingly despite it being grass vs a slow HC. Now I've always said that Nadal is a more comfortable mover on grass than any HC so he's actually tougher in many senses from the baseline on grass, but still the court speed difference is huge.

The main point is that at 09 AO, Fed's level was good enough to win with even an average serving day and mental performance. At 08 wimby, I am not sure that is the case. He got clearly outplayed in every set but the third, and third was do or die down 0-2, and even still he was unclutch till the tiebreak. In 09 AO he out played Nadal for the middle stretch of the first set, second set, third set till the TB, and fourth set, but he just couldn't take his chances in the first and third when he wasn't down in the score. It's easier to attribute mental deficiencies to the opponent than lack of level. Would Federer's level have looked better against a different opponent at Wimby, sure, but that doesn't explain that his level looked good enough against Nadal himself at 09 AO but he was mentally even worse. Unless you attribute it to Nadal being less comfortable on HC than grass, which I think is true, but still we are talking a slow HC here, and this simply can't explain the vast difference in quality in Fed's BH despite AO being much higher bounce.
 
So it’s no secret that the 2009 Wimbledon final between Federer and Roddick (yes, another Roddick thread) has gained somewhat of a controversial reputation around here, at least in the past year or so. Some hail it as one of the greatest matches of all time, others label it a glorified servefest. Whichever opinion one holds seems to be contingent on which fanbase they belong to. @The Guru and I felt that it was about time for a rewatch of the entire match and so we did exactly that and compiled a bunch of notes on the final. Our opinions of the match differ in some respects as he’s a Djokovic fan and I’m a Federer fan but I like to think this was a pretty honest and genuine way of approaching the match and I hope our analyses will lead to some interesting discussion on its merits and faults. We wrote a lot, though, so I understand it’s a tricky read. If you want to watch the final for yourselves, it’s available in full on the Wimbledon YouTube channel. Without further ado…

Third Serve’s Analysis:


Overall Summary:

This match hangs on two distinct aspects: the serve-return complex and the big points. Everything else comes secondary, and not by a short distance either. That's not to say that things like forehands, backhands, movement, and volleys are unimportant here but much greater emphasis than usual is placed on those first two areas of the game. A part of it is because of the surface (which, to my eyes, seems a little quicker than 2007 or 2008) but part of it comes down to the players themselves.

Let's get the obvious out of the way first. Both players serve very well. This is one of Federer's finer serving performances at Wimbledon. He bangs down aces and unreturnables at a high frequency, his serve percentage is pretty good (64% for the match), his placement is solid, his second serving is even weapon-level strong most of the time, and he still keeps the double faults low. But while Federer serves great, Roddick serves amazingly. He serves at 70% which is a stunningly high number by anyone's standards. One might think Andy took a little bit off the serve to get his numbers up that high; he most certainly doesn't. Roddick's first serves regularly hit the 130mph mark and a not insignificant number of them cross 140... even his second serves clock in at the 110s. Good placement on them too.

In fact, let's talk about the placement for a second because it partly explains a curious statistic: Fed's ahead in the ace tally by a massive margin, 51 to 27. I mean, he does serve well, but on that shot alone, Roddick clearly does better. So why are the ace counts the way they are? Part of it has to do with the placement of the serves from both players. Fed goes out wide or down the T roughly an equal number of times, and he does so well that it's often tricky to get a racket on them. On the other side, Roddick employs a relatively high proportion of body serves--he hits about as many of those as he does wide serves, just looking at the numbers. About midway through the second set, my feed pulled up a graphic showing that Roddick did change his serving patterns from the 2004 final. There, he went wide most of the time, but here there are far more body or T serves. Fed does get his racket on these body serves (of course) but they either go unreturned or they extract weak responses for Roddick to punish. This explains the ace differential a little bit.

The other thing that explains it is that Roddick does not return well at all. Granted, he's up against a tough serve and anyone would struggle with that, but let's just say that Roddick was dealt a bad hand here and played it meekly. Fed's serve is a little closer to the mortal realm than Roddick's and a decent portion of his serves are at the very least returnable. Still, even when it's those serves that come into play, Roddick hits a high number of return errors, many of them very clearly unforced. There's also a good bit of what I'm inclined to think is tanking on the return. Once down 30-0 or 40-0, Roddick occasionally just stops trying to go for it and lets aces slip by. He's not a natural returner in the first place but I will say it's a little disheartening to see how that part of his game has fallen from the balls-to-the-wall second serve returning he put up in the 2004 final. This won't be the last comparison to that match. One more thing is that Roddick doesn't move very much on the return. Fed at least glides around the court somewhat to line himself into position and give himself a puncher's chance at returning the serve, but Roddick's feet are essentially cinder blocks a good majority of the time.

Fed doesn't return super well either. Unlike Roddick's which is decidedly below par, however, Fed's return is just pretty average. He's up against legitimately GOAT-tier serving which has to factor into the analysis and given that, in a vacuum he doesn't return badly: there's just some room for work. It's a little bit better than I remembered but not by much. I am pretty confident now that the returning he displayed in this final was at least a half-step up from that in the previous year's final, though. It's mostly due to the significantly fewer F-ups on the second serve.

Now I say "in a vacuum" because by Fed's personal standards this is a bad returning-the-Roddick-serve day. Throughout his career, Fed possessed a truly uncanny ability to read Roddick's serve in a manner that I don't think anyone except maybe a peak Djokovic (and we never really saw Roddick vs. Djokovic peak to peak so even this is unproven) could equal. It didn't really matter whenever Roddick had a good serving day (2004 final) or a not-so-good one (2003 semifinal). Fed would consistently return his serve back with interest and neutralize much of the advantage Roddick was supposed to have obtained. Here, though, it seems like he's forgotten his magic. Of course, Roddick is serving at pretty much his absolute best here, a step over their previous encounters at Wimbledon, but the difference is not so significant as to excuse Fed not breaking Andy's serve all the way up until the penultimate game of the match. One does wonder if Roddick's change in serving pattern had to do with some of it, though, given the graph from earlier.

Speaking of breaks, what's up with Roddick breaking the Federer serve twice in two separate sets? He was supposed to have the worse return, correct? Well, that is undeniably true, but what's also true is that Roddick plays a clutch match on the whole. With one infamous exception, he takes his opportunities wherever he finds them, so if Fed slips up just a little bit during his service games, Roddick almost invariably pounces. On the reverse side, whenever Roddick has the rare prolonged service game, he weathers the storm with perfect, clutch serving and denies Fed a break (there's a small bit of Fed making errors in those moments but the outcome is mostly on Roddick). Even the one break he does surrender at the end comes down not to mentality but to stamina. Were it not for Roddick absolutely bombing serves down throughout the whole ordeal and playing the big points well, this match would likely have been a straightforward (something like the 2006 US Open final I imagine) win for Fed... because aside from those two things, Fed leads Roddick in pretty much every aspect of the game, and not by small margins either.
Planning on doing this again?
 
Planning on doing this again?
I might check out the 2019 semifinal at some point cuz it’s the last Fedal match and all. But I’ve been very busy the past month so I don’t know if I can do something like that anytime soon.
 
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I might check out the 2019 semifinal at some point cuz it’s the last Fedal match and all. But I’ve been very busy the past month so I don’t know if I can do something like that anytime soon.
Yeah I was more thinking in months ahead rather than now.
 
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