A.I. and the "4th Industrial Revolution"

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm talking about traffic control; not writing speeding tickets. Speeding is generally not enforced in my state.

I've only had one speeding ticket. In 1978. Not much of a concern in my area.

My town is rated 79 on one of the crime indexes. That means that it's safer than 79% of the rest of the country. Our police force is fairly small because they don't have a lot of crime to deal with. Our state and town run lean as far as the police and criminal justice systems go.
Well your country got so many dying in traffic every year compared to mine who has the lowest in the world. I believe it should be higher demands on your driving exams cuz USA got lots of bad drivers.
That was actually how I talked myself out of one ticket as I didn’t have a driving license one time I got caught. I said since I am from where I am from and I can drive a car it’s not me to take. The policeman agreed and he said Europeans better drivers.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
O ye of little faith. The barriers to the traffic cop scenario are not technical.

Yes in fact I studied AI in grad school back in the early 90s well before its "big bang". These days I get to work with it in a development capacity on occasion.

I accept that it's still in its infancy but its potential is enormous and I'd think very carefully before dismissing AI especially as it applies to repetitive tasks.
Have you studied AI at the undergraduate or graduate level?

I wrote a commercial AI system back in the early 1980s. I do know a little about what it can do and can't do. You really want the theoretical math background to make judgements on it.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Well your country got so many dying in traffic every year compared to mine who has the lowest in the world. I believe it should be higher demands on your driving exams cuz USA got lots of bad drivers.
That was actually how I talked myself out of one ticket as I didn’t have a driving license one time I got caught. I said since I am from where I am from and I can drive a car it’s not me to take. The policeman agreed and he said Europeans better drivers.
It sounds like you're the bad driver.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
A.I. won’t exist at the human IQ for at least another 50-75 yrs

Today’s A.I. is still inferior to an insect


How UPS uses AI to deliver holiday gifts in the worst storms
The delivery giant’s new machine-learning app aims to reroute packages away from snow and other trouble spots in its global network.

The Brilliant Ways UPS Uses Artificial Intelligence, Machine Learning And Big Data
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I read this post twice. It is a very good one (y)

Do you work in the manufacturing industry? We are looking at digital twinning ourselves for our factories in the coming few years. The possibilities in predictive maintenance are amazing and unthinkable.
No I don't. I just read a lot of stuff.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I had a discussion with my son on why a traffic cop was always better than the sensor systems that we have today. The main thing is that a traffic cop can see down the road and the amount of traffic on the way whereas a static weight sensor can only see that a car is either there waiting or there are cars passing by. He said that we could use cameras but I just said that cameras are easily fooled by rain and snow and the compute power would go up quite a bit. Someone could disable a camera with a paintball gun or a piece of duct-tape too.
The technology has advanced way beyond that. There are near infra red and far infra red cameras, and Wifi can be used to to "see" beyond LOS vision, both for cars and for monitoring cameras. Moreover, V2X technologies also can "see" everywhere due to networking between vehicles and other vehicles and infrastructure.

You are not familiar with the enormous amount of interest in this subject right now.

The problem of course is that the traffic cams collect too much data and can then be misused by the authorities. That is why they have been banned in many cities.

But the traffic police solution has a huge flaw. If there is rain and snow, he/she also has to be be protected, and that needs space wasted for a traffic island. Morevoer, if you go to India, you will see traffic police covering their nose and mouth with a mask to avoid pollution. To a lesser extent, that will be true in the US too. The guy will be constantly breathing emissions from close quarters. That alone is a reason to automate the job.

I think you need to expand your knowledge beyond the range of your son and yourself.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
The technology has advanced way beyond that. There are near infra red and far infra red cameras, and Wifi can be used to to "see" beyond LOS vision, both for cars and for monitoring cameras. Moreover, V2X technologies also can "see" everywhere due to networking between vehicles and other vehicles and infrastructure.

You are not familiar with the enormous amount of interest in this subject right now.

The problem of course is that the traffic cams collect too much data and can then be misused by the authorities. That is why they have been banned in many cities.

But the traffic police solution has a huge flaw. If there is rain and snow, he/she also has to be be protected, and that needs space wasted for a traffic island. Morevoer, if you go to India, you will see traffic police covering their nose and mouth with a mask to avoid pollution. To a lesser extent, that will be true in the US too. The guy will be constantly breathing emissions from close quarters. That alone is a reason to automate the job.

I think you need to expand your knowledge beyond the range of your son and yourself.
I've always said, if it works, it would be used.

Right now, we have the stupid sensor model. It works in some low-volume situations but is poor in high volume situations. A traffic cop would be better.

Your main problem with AI is the requirement for electricity. I see traffic cops in all kinds of bad weather.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
US has a lower rate and worse demographics, so it is all relative.
US Fertility rate is 1.65.

Demographer Neil Howe did an excellent piece last Wednesday in a Q&A. Someone asked him about the best places to invest in based on demographics. It turned into a look around the world at fertility rates. The two places he cited with good fertility rates were Africa and India. But they have other issues with respect to investments.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I've always said, if it works, it would be used.

Right now, we have the stupid sensor model. It works in some low-volume situations but is poor in high volume situations. A traffic cop would be better.

Your main problem with AI is the requirement for electricity. I see traffic cops in all kinds of bad weather.
So you think asking a guy to stand in the cold and rain and breathe vehicle fumes is a great idea?

Read this paper:

RESPIRATORY PARAMETERS IN TRAFFIC POLICEMEN EXPOSED TO URBAN POLLUTION
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
So you think asking a guy to stand in the cold and rain and breathe vehicle fumes is a great idea?

Read this paper:

RESPIRATORY PARAMETERS IN TRAFFIC POLICEMEN EXPOSED TO URBAN POLLUTION
It's a better idea than what we have now.

Police on details already do this.

As far as pollution goes - levels should be exponentially lower than they were in the 70s, 80s and 90s.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
US Fertility rate is 1.65.

Demographer Neil Howe did an excellent piece last Wednesday in a Q&A. Someone asked him about the best places to invest in based on demographics. It turned into a look around the world at fertility rates. The two places he cited with good fertility rates were Africa and India. But they have other issues with respect to investments.
Every US company, including my own, is running to China. That is the reason all important trade barriers have not yet been erected in this useless trade war - each company is getting exemptions. I don't think you realize that the industrial and scientific center of gravity has shifted out of the West and into China, and its political attitudes are no longer considered to be the beating boy as countries have realized how the US and Europe reacts when faced with issues. Rest of the world is realizing that the West will be far worse than China once the status quo of power is threatened, and the hypocrisy has been laid bare to see. The West is no longer seen as capable of sustaining democracy as their demographics changes and resentment builds. In the US, one of the parties does not even believe in democracy and voting any more and is doing its best to prevent it.

If you take modern history into account, the massive destruction has been caused by 2 World Wars (though Japan was also involved) and the Gulf Wars, and China was not involved in any of them. Intelligent people can see that criticizing human rights abuses while perpetuating absolute destruction is plain hypocrisy.
 
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Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
Google already knows everything about you with Google search, Amazon Alexa, Google Assistant, etc... saving your search, categories them and sell them so they can offer pop up display items and services! Not very for it to be A.I. controlled too! A.I. to A.I. machine. No human intervention!
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Every US company, including my own, is running to China. That is the reason all important trade barriers have not yet been erected in this useless trade war - each company is getting exemptions. I don't think you realize that the industrial and scientific center of gravity has shifted out of the West and into China, and its political attitudes are no longer considered to be the beating boy as countries have realized how the US and Europe reacts when faced with issues. Rest of the world is realizing that the West will be far worse than China once the status quo of power is threatened, and the hypocrisy has been laid bare to see. The West is no longer seen as capable of sustaining democracy as their demographics changes and resentment builds. In the US, one of the parties does not even believe in democracy and voting any more and is doing its best to prevent it.

If you take modern history into account, the massive destruction has been caused by 2 World Wars (though Japan was also involved) and the Gulf Wars, and China was not involved in any of them. Intelligent people can see that criticizing human rights abuses while perpetuating absolute destruction is plain hypocrisy.
And they're going to run out of people.

Do you watch the economic numbers coming out of China, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam every morning?
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Google already knows everything about you with Google search, Amazon Alexa, Google Assistant, etc... saving your search, categories them and sell them so they can offer pop up display items and services! Not very for it to be A.I. controlled too! A.I. to A.I. machine. No human intervention!
Why are you using Google search?
 
It's a better idea than what we have now.

Police on details already do this.

As far as pollution goes - levels should be exponentially lower than they were in the 70s, 80s and 90s.
The main advantage of a traffic cop over automated systems is people are far less likely to disobey or ignore an instruction from a traffic cop than they are to ignore an automated traffic control system. A traffic cop is also better able to deal with a collision. Other than that a well designed automated, intelligent traffic control system will outperform a system of manned traffic stops.

Of course, not all automated systems are well designed, or intelligent.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The main advantage of a traffic cop over automated systems is people are far less likely to disobey or ignore an instruction from a traffic cop than they are to ignore an automated traffic control system. A traffic cop is also better able to deal with a collision. Other than that a well designed automated, intelligent traffic control system will outperform a system of manned traffic stops.

Of course, not all automated systems are well designed, or intelligent.
Historically, many traffic stops by cops have been found to be motivated by ulterior motives, sometimes due to an informal quota of revenue for the department, and sometimes worse. They need to be made to wear body cams and record everything if they are deployed.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
It sounds like you're the bad driver.
If that makes you comfortable to think, so be it 8-B
Ive never crashed a car before, not even a bulk. My "problem" is speeding. And in USA the speed limits really low for those straight roads. Very tempting to drive much faster. Specially when listening to heavy metal :whistle: Lets blame Metallica or even the whole "mile" measurement when used to km.
 
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Sentinel

Bionic Poster
I had a discussion with my son on why a traffic cop was always better than the sensor systems that we have today. The main thing is that a traffic cop can see down the road and the amount of traffic on the way whereas a static weight sensor can only see that a car is either there waiting or there are cars passing by. He said that we could use cameras but I just said that cameras are easily fooled by rain and snow and the compute power would go up quite a bit. Someone could disable a camera with a paintball gun or a piece of duct-tape too.
But isnt it great though that the cops can use their time on bigger issues? Like catching pedophiles and thieves?
Police is paid with tax money and its a limit for how much police we can afford.
I agree with mov but there are other points too.
In some heavily populated cities, the cops have to inhale a lot of pollutants. In my city sometimes cops wear masks, and I am told some of them get an allowance. Pollution is a serious problem in parts of Asia.

We have traffic cops only when the lights are not working, or the traffic is so heavy that everyone ignored the signals and you have a jam (gridlock i think some call it).

But still you have cops on the side of the road noting down numbers of cars that ran a red light or took an illegal turn. The advantage of a traffic cop in this case is that you can give him a 100 INR note (bribe) and get off, and avoid a large fine :(. They can also check cars for the pollution certificate and take bribes to let you off.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
This is how bad it is for traffic police officers in Delhi:

In the 80s I would often come running from home, run up this road (Rajpath) go to the end of the top (Rashtrapathi Bhawan) and then return. And that was my shorter run. Three years ago, it was the longest run of the month.

During my long runs in the 80s, I would come here, take a left at this intersection, and then go up Shantipath (embassy area) all the way to Palam Airport and then return home. It was about 34 kms which I did in 2 hours and 5 minutes on Sunday mornings.
 

dgold44

G.O.A.T.
In the 80s I would often come running from home, run up this road (Rajpath) go to the end of the top (Rashtrapathi Bhawan) and then return. And that was my shorter run. Three years ago, it was the longest run of the month.

During my long runs in the 80s, I would come here, take a left at this intersection, and then go up Shantipath (embassy area) all the way to Palam Airport and then return home. It was about 34 kms which I did in 2 hours and 5 minutes on Sunday mornings.
I can only jog a mile in 8 1/2 min which is very slow
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
I agree with mov but there are other points too.
In some heavily populated cities, the cops have to inhale a lot of pollutants. In my city sometimes cops wear masks, and I am told some of them get an allowance. Pollution is a serious problem in parts of Asia.

We have traffic cops only when the lights are not working, or the traffic is so heavy that everyone ignored the signals and you have a jam (gridlock i think some call it).

But still you have cops on the side of the road noting down numbers of cars that ran a red light or took an illegal turn. The advantage of a traffic cop in this case is that you can give him a 100 INR note (bribe) and get off, and avoid a large fine :(. They can also check cars for the pollution certificate and take bribes to let you off.
15 years ago in Goa, the type of people I would never stop for in traffic was the police. I would drive the fastest I could for them not to catch me. Police in Goa scary people! Many are not real police. They threaten and take money from tourists. Borrowed a police uniform from an uncle or something. I drove motorbikes in Goa. And I guess they saw me as a box of gold they could steal from. I know tourists this happened to.
India lots of chaos in traffic. A 4 lane road, no one cares about the lanes. The amount of people dying in traffic there. The roads! The cars! The rickshaws using led filled petrol I think cause they use a type of petrol we dont use here anymore. One can smell it. One day in Dehli, clean your face in the evening w white paper and the paper is brown/black. Someone said its like smoking 40 cigaretts a day living there. Thats traffic in hell!
 
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Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
15 years ago in Goa, the type of people I would never stop for in traffic was the police. I would drive the fastest I could for them not to catch me. Police in Goa scary people! Many are not real police. They threaten and take money from tourists. Borrowed a police uniform from an uncle or something. I drove motorbikes in Goa. And I guess they saw me as a box of gold they could steal from. I know tourists this happened to.
You were in India? Lucky Ghost you were not caught!
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
You were in India? Lucky Ghost you were not caught!
They stop tourists, people they see arent Indian and just threaten them for not driving w a helmet for example. They dont stop Indians there for the same offense. Making up reasons to steal money. Sentinel only paid like 100rs, but a tourist 5000 rs. I could probably pay it, but why pay that when I can just drive a little faster and avoid the "police"? With all the crimes over there, the corruption and sexual offenses, police arent someone to trust. If you look like an European you are seen as a person to steal from. Sounds bizarre, but its the truth. My own embassy told us not stop for that kind of police. Just drive little faster and pass them. That "police" is taking the money in his own pocket.
 
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Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
This is not the motivation for AI at all. The motivation for AI is to make lives better. Imagine a police officer sifting through millions of fingerprints to match that of a suspect. A month of sifting for a match in a tiny country. Imagine a computer giving you the result in 20 minutes so that the police officer can take the next important steps towards apprehending the criminal - that's AI. The gloom and doom of mankind because of ML/AI is a bit preposterous. Yes, jobs will be cut but that's the point - do I want the error of man giving me wrong diagnosis or a reliable computer to give me the right diagnosis of an ailment? We are not there yet, but that's what we are headed towards. AI is today capable of predicting bank frauds, natural calamities, the probability of a flight failing after X hours of flight time....the possibilities and applications of the same are endless.

Of course jobs are going to be culled and new jobs will evolve. Nobody learns to be a pigeon handler for sending messages today. One will not say that their jobs have been destroyed. Superior modes of communication came about - telegraph operators were then important, telegram operators....where are they today? Jobs evolve, quality of life gets better. Some lose out and I'd say tough luck but if we want to progress as a society, such things will happen, if I may say, unfortunately.
I think your view is a bit simplistic. I see your point, and I have never had the kind of job that could be replaced by a non-human (I'm a musician), but the border between what a machine can do and what a human can do is becoming narrower, more fuzzy. None of us knows where it is all going to end.
 

mxmx

Professional
TheGhostOfAgassi, post: 13602468, member: 742730"]Yes, corruption is there on a massive scale. Humans have very high thoughts of themselves. We hide the best we can our dumb sides. We are naive as well and we get quite easily dragged into group mentality. Just look at the dem-rep division in USA. Like it is 2 types of people, lol. Neverending split and concur power thing.
Look at all the cults all over the world, the crazy things people believe in. Look at religions, even the biggest ones now. Its so many spaced out things people can believe is a fact. People are easily fooled and same time we pretend to be so smart and know everything. We are insecure and we need a purpose in life so we cling to beliefs. Heck, just look at the fans to certain players in this forum and see what they believe.

BUT, the most developed countries got less corruption. The countries that works together as a whole have less corruption. Its a never ending fight and its important to catch it as corruption is incredible destructive for a nation.
I believe in humility rather than "the self". Or at least I aim for it and more often fail than not. We as humans have reason to be insecure (with some things) and will never find all the answers with our limited capacities. This "gap" is purposefully placed there to learn this humility. God is God and we are not. Cults and religions that go astray are often the ones where people make themselves as higher than the beliefs they supposedly stand for. Pride instead of humility. Own opinions can come in the way of the truth. Everyone has opinions in science, religion or whatever subject, but in the end there is absolute truth. What will happen, will happen.

You are right, people think they know everything. One day I believe we will, but not in this life. Science is making some people acknowledge there is something greater than themselves. Others are clouded in judgement...altered judgement by only looking at the mind and not their hearts and souls. Knowledge can actually cloud judgement to actually see truth. But it can also help discover truth. But "faith" is not always something achieved by the mind and knowledge alone. It can simply be a decision and attemt to open ones eyes, being humble and really be open for the truth. Hindsight will be 20x20...
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
They stop tourists, people they see arent Indian and just threaten them for not driving w a helmet for example. They dont stop Indians there for the same offense. Making up reasons to steal money. Sentinel only paid like 100rs, but a tourist 5000 rs. I could probably pay it, but why pay that when I can just drive a little faster and avoid the "police"? With all the crimes over there, the corruption and sexual offenses, police arent someone to trust. If you look like an European you are seen as a person to steal from. Sounds bizarre, but its the truth. My own embassy told us not stop for that kind of police. Just drive little faster and pass them. That "police" is taking the money in his own pocket.
I would never go to India because I read stories about Calcutta when I was in Junior High! I think it is about the same as it was then as it is now! I would never go to a third world country because of the culture like this in India. A tourist is looked upon as someone to pray on by the general public and the local authorities.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
I would never go to India because I read stories about Calcutta when I was in Junior High! I think it is about the same as it was then as it is now! I would never go to a third world country because of the culture like this in India. A tourist is looked upon as someone to pray on by the general public and the local authorities.
Yeah. I was really young when I was stupid enough to drive around in India! Hehe. Insane I actually did that. But its an experience I grew on. Its good to see different cultures. Makes me love my culture even more lol. Its not like I am complaining about the weather here anymore after seeing everything Ive seen on my travels.
 

Azure

Legend
I think your view is a bit simplistic. I see your point, and I have never had the kind of job that could be replaced by a non-human (I'm a musician), but the border between what a machine can do and what a human can do is becoming narrower, more fuzzy. None of us knows where it is all going to end.
In what way do you find it simplistic, Gary? I do a lot of machine learning and AI as part of my job and it baffles me when I see newer applications of simple algorithms on a daily basis. We are not talking merely about replacing jobs. Today, musicians can use AI to teach their students better, to help people filter and discover better music - the following may interest you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_and_artificial_intelligence
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
They stop tourists, people they see arent Indian and just threaten them for not driving w a helmet for example. They dont stop Indians there for the same offense. Making up reasons to steal money. Sentinel only paid like 100rs, but a tourist 5000 rs. I could probably pay it, but why pay that when I can just drive a little faster and avoid the "police"? With all the crimes over there, the corruption and sexual offenses, police arent someone to trust. If you look like an European you are seen as a person to steal from. Sounds bizarre, but its the truth. My own embassy told us not stop for that kind of police. Just drive little faster and pass them. That "police" is taking the money in his own pocket.
Anyone who is not a local is overcharged. When I travel down South and don't know the local language, I am overcharged. But anyone fair skinned will be charged even more.
 

mightyrick

Legend
The rate of intelligent automation combined with climate change are the biggest risks to any nation's security.

In a first world country like the USA, the time is nearing where the villagers are going to be storming the rich houses in their towns with torches and pitchforks. Eventually, the wood choppers and ditch diggers are going to revolt. And when it happens, it's going to be bloody.

In other geophraphies, we're talking about regional wars breaking out.

I'm not personally conservative-minded, but I've been telling them for years that they need to start changing their platform and adopting UBI. Otherwise, conservative parties are going to quickly become extinct.

It isn't a question of ideology anymore. It's a question of security and survival.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
They stop tourists, people they see arent Indian and just threaten them for not driving w a helmet for example. They dont stop Indians there for the same offense. Making up reasons to steal money. Sentinel only paid like 100rs, but a tourist 5000 rs. I could probably pay it, but why pay that when I can just drive a little faster and avoid the "police"? With all the crimes over there, the corruption and sexual offenses, police arent someone to trust. If you look like an European you are seen as a person to steal from. Sounds bizarre, but its the truth. My own embassy told us not stop for that kind of police. Just drive little faster and pass them. That "police" is taking the money in his own pocket.
Once a police officer stopped me in Chennai for making an illegal U turn with my 2-wheeler under a bridge. He asked for a bribe. I told him I did not have that much money on me but could just drive 2 minutes more and get it from my cousin's home. He then started saluting me and asked me to leave and apologized. I asked why. He said your cousin is the business owner down the street who tips me handsomely during festivals, so your bribe is covered in that.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I would never go to India because I read stories about Calcutta when I was in Junior High! I think it is about the same as it was then as it is now! I would never go to a third world country because of the culture like this in India. A tourist is looked upon as someone to pray on by the general public and the local authorities.
Yeah, either that or the other extreme of too much respect and worship.

Nowadays it has changed somewhat, because the new tourists are not Europeans or Americans who were perceived to have a lot of money and were either awed or shocked by everything and had a 1-dimensional attitude, but increasingly Chinese and South Koreans and Thais, who are culturally much more flexible and understand the local scene easily.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
15 years ago in Goa, the type of people I would never stop for in traffic was the police. I would drive the fastest I could for them not to catch me. Police in Goa scary people! Many are not real police. They threaten and take money from tourists. Borrowed a police uniform from an uncle or something. I drove motorbikes in Goa. And I guess they saw me as a box of gold they could steal from. I know tourists this happened to.
India lots of chaos in traffic. A 4 lane road, no one cares about the lanes. The amount of people dying in traffic there. The roads! The cars! The rickshaws using led filled petrol I think cause they use a type of petrol we dont use here anymore. One can smell it. One day in Dehli, clean your face in the evening w white paper and the paper is brown/black. Someone said its like smoking 40 cigaretts a day living there. Thats traffic in hell!
This is a photo of a beach in Goa with hippies in the 70s. Which one is you?

 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Anyone who is not a local is overcharged. When I travel down South and don't know the local language, I am overcharged. But anyone fair skinned will be charged even more.
Nowadays everyone uses Uber or Ola or a call taxi, with no bargaining. Only auto rickshaws still do the bargaining. Things have changed, old boy.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
Nowadays everyone uses Uber or Ola or a call taxi, with no bargaining. Only auto rickshaws still do the bargaining. Things have changed, old boy.
I was not talking about travelling. Even buying stuff like fruit.

And yes, I do use Uber to avoid the traffic and parking issues.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
The rate of intelligent automation combined with climate change are the biggest risks to any nation's security.

In a first world country like the USA, the time is nearing where the villagers are going to be storming the rich houses in their towns with torches and pitchforks. Eventually, the wood choppers and ditch diggers are going to revolt. And when it happens, it's going to be bloody.

In other geophraphies, we're talking about regional wars breaking out.

I'm not personally conservative-minded, but I've been telling them for years that they need to start changing their platform and adopting UBI. Otherwise, conservative parties are going to quickly become extinct.

It isn't a question of ideology anymore. It's a question of security and survival.

 
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