A massive moment?

D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
I agree and arguably, even winning this tournament isn’t enough. It’s winning a slam.

IF Zverev can beat both Federer even in his current state and Djokovic back to back indoors to win a WTF, then there is something of substance there. It is not a slam, but it is still the biggest event outside of the slams and maybe the next logical step for Sacha after already doing well in the Masters. But as stated, the biggest titles are held by guys in their 30s, and this one match today does not change that one single bit.
 
Zverev doesn’t even need to win this tournament for the hegemony of the Big 3 over the young generation to be over.

Today felt like the moment Federer dropped out of the equation- i’ve got the feeling it’s for good.

Djokovic and Nadal probably still have a few years left in them yet.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
Zverev doesn’t even need to win this tournament for the hegemony of the Big 3 over the young generation to be over.

Today felt like the moment Federer dropped out of the equation- i’ve got the feeling it’s for good.

Djokovic and Nadal probably still have a few years left in them yet.

The holder of the AO and number three in the world is all of a sudden a non-factor because Zverev beat him 7-5, 7-6? OK....
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
A massive moment?

Grand slam winners this year

AO = Federer
RG = Nadal
W = Djokovic
USO = Djokovic


Top three ranking positions

1 = Djokovic
2 = Nadal
3 = Federer

When this changes, then we have a massive moment. Zverev has potential, and the right attitude, he wants to be out there and be the best, but until he wins this title, it is not a massive moment. Beating a 37 Federer 7-5, 7-6 isn't Federer getting crushed, that is a difference of a few points here and there. IF he can pull out a win tomorrow in the final, then lets talk about a real change, at the moment, it is nothing we haven't seen before, a player beats one of the big three and then promptly loses to the next one. Have to beat them all.
If Sascha can beat Novak tomorrow, it will be the first time I'm legitimately impressed by the NextGen and intrigued about the future. So far, all their big wins vs the Big 3 have come with caveats.

Zverev beat an out of form Novak to win his Rome title and an injured Federer for Montreal. Now he barely took down a very up & down Federer. Chung beat a still injured Novak who was basically grunting in pain after every forehand he hit. Khachanov played great in Paris, but Novak was obviously sick. Tsitsipas' win in Toronto looked good but like you said, couldn't follow it up when he got steamrolled by Rafa. Coric beat a Federer in Halle who never should have even reached the final.

But if Sascha can find a way to beat a healthy and in-form Djokovic on one of his best courts, we can legitimately start talking about if "the NextGen has arrived."
 
The holder of the AO and number three in the world is all of a sudden a non-factor because Zverev beat him 7-5, 7-6? OK....
Just a feeling. It’s always possible for a draw to open up in weird ways. Nothing is impossible. But for the first time ever today, I sensed he’s done. Same as I felt about Sampras ever winning Wimbledon again after Federer beat him -in a much closer match than today’s. Just something in the air.

We’ll find out soon enough.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
If Sascha can beat Novak tomorrow, it will be the first time I'm legitimately impressed by the NextGen and intrigued about the future. So far, all their big wins vs the Big 3 have come with caveats.

Zverev beat an out of form Novak to win his Rome title and an injured Federer for Montreal. Now he barely took down a very up & down Federer. Chung beat a still injured Novak who was basically grunting in pain after every forehand he hit. Khachanov played great in Paris, but Novak was obviously sick. Tsitsipas' win in Toronto looked good but like you said, couldn't follow it up when he got steamrolled by Rafa. Coric beat a Federer in Halle who never should have even reached the final.

But if Sascha can find a way to beat a healthy and in-form Djokovic on one of his best courts, we can legitimately start talking about if "the NextGen has arrived."

Exactly, should the match happen, this is Sacha's real test. Lets see if he can beat a healthy, fresh and inform Djokovic on a court Djokovic calls home. If he follows up the Federer win with one over Djokovic, then we have a massive moment. Beating one and then getting smacked around by another of the big three is something we see all too often.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
Just a feeling. It’s always possible for a draw to open up in weird ways. Nothing is impossible. But for the first time ever today, I sensed he’s done. Same as I felt about Sampras ever winning Wimbledon again after Federer beat him -in a much closer match than today’s. Just something in the air.

We’ll find out soon enough.

I guess you can have your feelings. I sensed nothing myself, just a day that wasn't meant to be for Federer and a good one for Zverev. When Zverev starts outperforming Federer in slams by going deeper than him, I might have those same feelings, but not until then.
 

TheAssassin

G.O.A.T.
It will be massive if he beats Djokovic as well.

Not going to discredit Zverev if he plays and beats Anderson in the final instead though, he's already had a great week actually. Just saying Novak would be a tougher opponent and beating him would make an even bigger statement.
 
ZZZzzzz.

Federer is coming off wrist injury problems and has had uncharacteristic problems holding serve in recent months. The fact that he's still breaking at a normal rate makes me think that it's all about health and being in form at this point, rather than any sort of decline.

The serve is the last thing to go. Federer will be able to serve effectively even when he's 50, provided he's not injured.

If Federer gets healthy and resumes holding serve, as one would expect him to be able to do, the last few months won't mean anything.
 
Exactly, should the match happen, this is Sacha's real test. Lets see if he can beat a healthy, fresh and inform Djokovic on a court Djokovic calls home. If he follows up the Federer win with one over Djokovic, then we have a massive moment. Beating one and then getting smacked around by another of the big three is something we see all too often.
When was the last time that one of the best young (17-21 year old) players in the world beat one of the big 3 in a semi-final of a slam or the WTF?
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
It will be massive if he beats Djokovic as well.

Not going to discredit Zverev if he plays and beats Anderson in the final instead though, he's already had a great week actually. Just saying Novak would be a tougher opponent and beating him would make an even bigger statement.
Is it bad that I wasn't even considering Kevin as a potential opponent? He got broken 3(?) times by Roger, idk how he'll even have a chance against Novak.
 

Indigo

Professional
Zverev is 18 years younger than Federer. Zverev can literally be Federer's son. There is nothing spectacular in 21 year old son beating his dad. Nothing at all.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
When was the last time that one of the best young (17-21 year old) players in the world beat one of the big 3 in a semi-final of a slam or the WTF?

When was the last time anyone beat a combination of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic at a big event, a slam or a WTF and won the title? Until Zverev beats Djokovic here, it isn't as massive a moment as you may feel, in my eyes. If he beats Djokovic tomorrow, then you are onto something. Seen this movie played out many time before. If Djokovic is holding the title tomorrow, then your massive moment needs to wait a little while longer, at least until AO.
 
You didn’t answer the question.

“Seen this movie played out many time before.”

When? When did one of the best young players beat one of the big 3 in a semi at a major or the WTF?

It’s happened many times, so you’ll have plenty to choose from.
 

ChrisRF

Legend
Zverev doesn’t even need to win this tournament for the hegemony of the Big 3 over the young generation to be over.

Today felt like the moment Federer dropped out of the equation- i’ve got the feeling it’s for good.

Djokovic and Nadal probably still have a few years left in them yet.
Come on, the same could be said about Nadal after losing to Shapovalov last year, or Federer when he lost to Coric 2 times, or Djokovic after one of his numerous losses at the beginning of the season.

And for “big tournament”: Don’t make WTF bigger than it actual is. It was just a loss in a Best of 3 match like it can happen anywhere, period.
 
Come on, the same could be said about Nadal after losing to Shapovalov last year, or Federer when he lost to Coric 2 times, or Djokovic after one of his numerous losses at the beginning of the season.

And for “big tournament”: Don’t make WTF bigger than it actual is. It was just a loss in a Best of 3 match like it can happen anywhere, period.
You’re suddenly downgrading the WTF to try and fit your argument?

I don’t like the tournament, personally, but it’s just silly to try and argue it isn’t the biggest event outside of the slams, just to try and win the Internet.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Total nonsense. Zverev adding a WTF title to his already impressive young resume would be huge.

The it's-only-about-the-slams mentality here is puzzling.

Of course it would be impressive, no one’s denying that (especially if he beats 2 of the big 3 to do it).

But let’s say that Zverev wins this YEC, and then next year, all four slams are won by the big 3 (or Murray/Wawrinka/Delpo/Cilic) again, while Zverev regresses to a stable top 10 position.

In which case, Zverev’s win would have been something of a false dawn. I maintain that winning a slam is the ultimate test - and that, yes, we do need a Next Gener to do that before we can truly consider the current era to be over.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
You didn’t answer the question.

“Seen this movie played out many time before.”

When? When did one of the best young players beat one of the big 3 in a semi at a major or the WTF?

It’s happened many times, so you’ll have plenty to choose from.

My answer is simple, beating one of them has happened before, we have seen upsets happen, but no one yet has been able to break through against the Big Three as a group and take a big title, and that is exactly what I mean about having seen this movie played out many times before. I have seen Federer, Djokovic and Nadal all get upset in slams, only for that winner to then go onto lose to one of the others.

IF Sacha manages to beat Djokovic here, and that is a big IF considering Djokovic's form, then I will agree with you that we have had a massive moment. Pointing to a specific point that when a 21 beat one of the big three in a slam and WTF doesn't mean much if he goes onto the lose the next one. Show me that you can beat them all, without blinking and then we know the young guns are ready to take over.
 

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
7648f6531456729.jpg
 
Pointing to a specific point that when a 21 beat one of the big three in a slam and WTF doesn't mean much if he goes onto the lose the next one.

What? Federer bearing Sampras at Wimbledon wasn’t significant because he didn’t go on to win a slam for two years?
 

Indigo

Professional
I have a feeling that Big 3 are the stronger when they are together. That is why they ruled for so long. As soon as Nadal is out, a new contender has easier job to try to break through the walls. We will see how much ammo will Djokovic fire in direction of new contender if he gets to the final.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
What? Federer bearing Sampras at Wimbledon wasn’t significant because he didn’t go on to win a slam for two years?

I saw the whole Federer story also, and all I remember was how Federer was still considered a wasted talent post that W win, until he finally got his stuff together exactly two years later. He was losing first round of RG in 2003 before it clicked, so that moment didn't lead to something special straight away, it gave us a glimpse of the player he could be. You think beating Federer here in the semis has announced Zverev? Lets see him back it up first against Djokovic, then as I said, I will agree, until then, we feel very differently on this.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Just a feeling. It’s always possible for a draw to open up in weird ways. Nothing is impossible. But for the first time ever today, I sensed he’s done. Same as I felt about Sampras ever winning Wimbledon again after Federer beat him -in a much closer match than today’s. Just something in the air.

We’ll find out soon enough.
Sampras wasn't even 30 at the time lmao. Nice comparison
 

TheAssassin

G.O.A.T.
Is it bad that I wasn't even considering Kevin as a potential opponent? He got broken 3(?) times by Roger, idk how he'll even have a chance against Novak.
Not at all (Anderson was broken 4 times by Federer). I am rather confident in Djokovic myself but not ruling strange things out. Last season Federer looked like he had this tournament in the bag and we saw what happened. Obviously he is more prone to a stinker than current Djokovic but still I don't remember him ever losing or even having trouble with Goffin or Dimitrov who was waiting in the final.
 

duaneeo

Legend
But let’s say that Zverev wins this YEC, and then next year, all four slams are won by the big 3 (or Murray/Wawrinka/Delpo/Cilic) again, while Zverev regresses to a stable top 10 position.

In which case, Zverev’s win would have been something of a false dawn. I maintain that winning a slam is the ultimate test - and that, yes, we do need a Next Gener to do that before we can truly consider the current era to be over.

Can't argue with this. But I do think a NextGen will win a slam in 2019...Zverev and Khachanov the top contenders.
 
I saw the whole Federer story also, and all I remember was how Federer was still considered a wasted talent post that W win, until he finally got his stuff together exactly two years later. He was losing first round of RG in 2003 before it clicked, so that moment didn't lead to something special straight away,

Fine. You didn’t feel at the time anything significant had happened when Federer defeated Sampras.

I did.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
Fine. You didn’t feel at the time anything significant had happened when Federer defeated Sampras.

I did.

I saw something special, but Federer didn't do squat for two straight years, if he took that win and ran with it I would have, the way Hewitt did at USO 01 when he beat Sampras, won the WTF and became world number one. Federer still wasn't ready to take the torch.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
So, 46 tournaments have come and gone since a 21 year old beat one of the top 3 in a semi of a major or the WTF.

And Del Potro defeated a 23 year old in the semis and a 28 year old in the final? Hardly the stirrings of a changing of the guard.

No. This feels different. And the stats suggest it is different.
Delpo looked pretty damn good to me at the time :sneaky:
 
I saw something special, but Federer didn't do squat for two straight years, if he took that win and ran with it I would have, the way Hewitt did at USO 01 when he beat Sampras, won the WTF and became world number one. Federer still wasn't ready to take the torch.
It’s a two way equation. Half of the equation was Sampras being done as a force at Wimbledon.

It’s fine to have missed it. I was pretty much a lone voice then, too.
 

Sputnik Bulgorov

Professional
You didn’t answer the question.

“Seen this movie played out many time before.”

When? When did one of the best young players beat one of the big 3 in a semi at a major or the WTF?

It’s happened many times, so you’ll have plenty to choose from.

Not exactly a semi, but Kyrgios beating Nadal at Wimbledon, Chung beating Djokovic at AO, Thiem beating Djokovic at FO.

Outside of Slams, there are more to choose from. Zverev beating Federer and Djokovic in Montreal and Rome, respectively. Zverev beating Federer in Halle. Coric beating Federer in Halle and Shanghai. Coric beating Nadal in Basel and Cincinnati. Shapovalov beating Nadal in Montreal. Thiem beating Djokovic in Monte Carlo. Thiem beating Federer in Stuttgart.
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
Not at all (Anderson was broken 4 times by Federer). I am rather confident in Djokovic myself but not ruling strange things out. Last season Federer looked like he had this tournament in the bag and we saw what happened. Obviously he is more prone to a stinker than current Djokovic but still I don't remember him ever losing or even having trouble with Goffin or Dimitrov who was waiting in the final.
He demolished Goffin in Basel, but that was the last great match he played in 2017. He barely scraped by Mannarino the round before and he really struggled against Delpo in the final. Then even in the WTF he needed 3 sets against Zverev and Cilic. So it's not like he was playing dominant tennis at the time like Novak is now.
 

Zebrev

Hall of Fame
IF Zverev can beat both Federer even in his current state and Djokovic back to back indoors to win a WTF, then there is something of substance there. It is not a slam, but it is still the biggest event outside of the slams and maybe the next logical step for Sacha after already doing well in the Masters. But as stated, the biggest titles are held by guys in their 30s, and this one match today does not change that one single bit.

Sascha is chucking out the playbook, I'm certain. The ABZ-ers have been very bold in declaring Zverev the next Dimitrov or Nishikori, but Zverev has had a star ability from the word go. He made the QF of an 500 event at age 17, he won his first title at age 19, the youngest since Cilic, and was the first of these Nextgenners to win a master's title. He has been leading the way for a long time now, and he will begin his mount for world number 1 in 2019. You can see he is maturing mentally, catching up with his game as it were. Even the best are struggling now, and I believe we will see a greater degree of consistency from in 2019 after the Lendl coach has truly sank in. The define rivalry of 2019 will be Djokovic versus Zverev as Fed and Nadal fall away...
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
It’s a two way equation. Half of the equation was Sampras being done as a force at Wimbledon.

It’s fine to have missed it. I was pretty much a lone voice then, too.

Remind me, Sampras hadn't won a title since the last Wimbledon, correct? In fact, he would go without a title for the rest of 2001 and all of 2002 until the USO.

Now, a couple of things here. The first is that Federer is still winning slams, after all, he is the AO champion and picked up four titles overall. So he is doing just fine at his age IMO. Secondly taking the Sampas USO thing into account, did you also declare that Sampras was done after that Wimbledon loss to Federer, only to watch him turn up the heat and win USO 2002? Now, if history has told us anything is that you never count an ATG out, so you writing of Federer as a spent force just because he lost a match today, a tight match mind you, then well, looks like you could make that mistake again.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
I would like to agree with you, but I think that 37 years old is becoming a bigger handicap every passing month.
The Fed of 2014/15 would have destroyed Z.
Yeah that's what I meant. I'm sure Fed could do better than this, I'm sure he could've given himself a better chance to win, but the gap between him now and any other year except maybe 2013 is huge.
 
W
Remind me, Sampras hadn't won a title since the last Wimbledon, correct? In fact, he would go without a title for the rest of 2001 and all of 2002 until the USO.

Now, a couple of things here. The first is that Federer is still winning slams, after all, he is the AO champion and picked up four titles overall. So he is doing just fine at his age IMO. Secondly taking the Sampas USO thing into account, did you also declare that Sampras was done after that Wimbledon loss to Federer, only to watch him turn up the heat and win USO 2002? Now, if history has told us anything is that you never count an ATG out, so you writing of Federer as a spent force just because he lost a match today, a tight match mind you, then well, looks like you could make that mistake again.
We’ll find out. My tennis spider-sense tingles infrequently, but when it does I tend to listen to it.

I felt the same when Borg played Connors in the Wimbledon semi in 1981. I just felt it was over.

I feel the same way about Federer today.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Looked good to me, too. Also looked only two years younger than his semi-opponent.
Anyone watching the game at the time witnessed Delpo dominate Nadal all throughout 2009 and beat Federer in the final at UO. He appeared to be the successor on HC. Nadal had just made his breakthrough at AO and then got pawned all season by Delpo after that. Change was in the air before his injury.
 

papertank

Hall of Fame
Let's not forget Zverev got absolutely pummeled by Djokovic the day before. Federer may have not been great this tournament but the big 3 still have a pretty firm hold on the top of this sport.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
W

We’ll find out. My tennis spider-sense tingles infrequently, but when it does I tend to listen to it.

I felt the same when Borg played Connors in the Wimbledon semi in 1981. I just felt it was over.

I feel the same way about Federer today.

So, was your spider sense tingling when Sampras lost Wimbledon 2001? You know he still went onto win USO 2002 right? Even if he was, as someone once said, a half a step slower.

One thing I do agree with you is that we will find out, but as I stated above, never ever count out an ATG, you never know when they show you why they are so special, even when you think it is over. So lets wait, I don't think it is over yet, he is contender for Wimbledon without a doubt in my eyes, and if Novak slips at AO, watch out...
 

Djokodalerer31

Hall of Fame
Djokovic vs. Khachanov was that match.
Djoker's pusher-style just didn't work. Of course, he claimed he was ill and stuff

Because he was! LOL He played by catching cold the whole tournament! You could even see consequences here as well in his second match against Zverev during their RR clash! Don't pretend you didn't see him coughing and snotting at certain moments in the first set! He even had conflict in Bercy with his team for not hearing he was asking for nose-rag and you all were happy to catch on that and say how unsportsmanlike was that kind of behavior! LMAO You seem to have short-term memory...
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
Because he was! LOL He played by catching cold the whole tournament! You could even see consequences here as well in his second match against Zverev during their RR clash! Don't pretend you didn't see him coughing and snotting at certain moments in the first set! He even had conflict in Bercy with his team for not hearing he was asking for nose-rag and you all were happy to catch on that and say how unsportsmanlike was that kind of behavior! LMAO You seem to have short-term memory...
Considering they can easily remember minor incidents from ages ago, what you are looking for is selective memory, not short-term memory. ;)
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
Considering they can easily remember minor incidents from ages ago, what you are looking for is selective memory, not short-term memory. ;)

It was clearly obvious Djokovic was not 100% in Paris, he was under the weather and feeling it all week long. Add to that, back to back gruelling matches against Cilic and Federer with less time to recover, and you have the perfect storm for the young Russian to take advantage. Lets give KK credit, he didn't blink and was clinical in his win, but lets also not kid ourselves and say he beat a fresh and healthy Djokovic. Far from it.

And really some Federer fans shouldn't make such statements, since Federer lost to Nadal in Miami in 04 while not feeling one hundred percent either, he had a fever. If it is OK for them to say it there, then they should not begrudge it being said in Novak's case in regards to the Paris loss.
 
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