A public address to all the Carlos naysayers

[Rafa4LifeEver]

While Carlitos is not as incredible as 2005-2007 Rafa, he is still the greatest youngster to have broken through since Djokovic's breakthrough in 2006. But man I'd not worry about him losing 3&2 to a well playing Djokovic, the second greatest fast hardcourt player of this modern era after Federer.

I'd go as far to say that this year, post-USO has been a massive improvement for the tiny guy compared to 2022; when he lost meekly to FAA & Goffin, retired against Rune and withdrew from ATP finals. Even the USO series was an improvement over the last year except for the USO run where he played a tactically suicidal match against Medvedev who cought lightning in a bottle that day again (2 years after beating CYGSovic). Not to forget that he is not ending his season with an injury, unlike last year when his injury kept him out from the Australian summer.

Now talking about his SF loss at ATP Finals 2023, that Djokovic match was definitely closer than what the scoreline suggests. I had already predicted and posted about a straight sets win for Djokovic; because the Serb has mastered every element required for the indoor HC game, while those are still a work in progress for Alcaraz. Additionally, Novak's Serve+Return combo is still considerably superior to that of Carlitos, especially the serve which is the biggest factor when playing on fast indoor HCs.

To all those dumping Alcaraz and jumping off from his train or ship, I'd say that you all need to follow tennis regularly and analyse game elements more clearly and rationally before jumping onto conclusions about how 20yo Alcaraz couldn't beat 36 yo Djokovic and hence he is a mug etc etc.

Additionally, he is going to have the proper off season for the first time in 3 years and hence he will work on new strategies and tactics, get rehabilitation and necessary technical adjustments. Be positive, people.

Just my 2 cents here.

-Carl (DEFINITELY NOT TINY)

 

[weakera]

He's irredeemable for me. Even if he wins later I'll always remember how he got smacked around by an old Djokovic. Would have gotten cooked alive in the strong era.

 

[DSH]

When he turns 21 and his rival turns 37, if he loses to him again in Major tournaments it would be definitive proof that the predictions about him were overstated.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

He's irredeemable for me. Even if he wins later I'll always remember how he got smacked around by an old Djokovic. Would have gotten cooked alive in the strong era.

You're not getting my point, bro. We can't see everything just in the context of mathematics here. Fast court tennis is not that easy to master, and Carlos made it to the SF in his very first attempt, something not even Djokovic himself could manage, and yet went on to be the second greatest fast court player of this era.
Age is not always an absolute thing.

 

[MichaelNadal]

I still like him but so far the entire tour has been exposed for like 4 generations now. They were supposed to take over from the big 3 (even the big 3 in their mid 30s) and it never happened. The next era will only begin bc Federer retired, Nadal finally reached his expiration date, and Novak decides he wants to go.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

When he turns 21 and his rival turns 37, if he loses to him again in Major tournaments it would be definitive proof that the predictions about him were overstated.

I may sound naive, but I'd pick Carlos over Djokovic in BO5 from now on. Fast indoor HCs are not representatives of slams.

 

[FeroBango]

Do people not see that the 36 yo Nole is almost as good as Alcaraz at covering the court if not better? He still moves like someone who's much younger than what his age suggests.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

I still like him but so far the entire tour has been exposed for like 4 generations now. They were supposed to take over from the big 3 (even the big 3 in their mid 30s) and it never happened. The next era will only begin bc Federer retired, Nadal finally reached his expiration date, and Novak decides he wants to go.

Usually, all great young ATGs go on a downward spiral for a few months after having their first slam win against an established ATG. Case in point, Federer after 2001 Wimbledon, Nadal after 2005 RG, etc.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Do people not see that the 36 yo Nole is almost as good as Alcaraz at covering the court if not better? He still moves like someone who's much younger than what his age suggests.

He definitely doesn't nearly have the speed or recovery of Alcaraz, but its his anticipation, stretching & ability to stick closer to the baseline that compensate for his loss of footspeed & recovery

 

[FeroBango]

He definitely doesn't nearly have the speed or recovery of Alcaraz, but its his anticipation, stretching & ability to stick closer to the baseline that compensate for his loss of footspeed & recovery

True. Alcaraz is the speediest but all the components that make movement render Djokovic just as good as Alcaraz if not better, especially on truly fast indoor conditions.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

True. Alcaraz is the speediest but all the components that make movement render Djokovic just as good as Alcaraz if not better, especially on truly fast indoor conditions.

Precisely what I said in the OP, Djokovic has mastered all the elements required to play well on indoor HCs while Carlos is a work in progress.

 

[DSH]

I may sound naive, but I'd pick Carlos over Djokovic in BO5 from now on. Fast indoor HCs are not representatives of slams.

Including the next Australian Open?
If Alcaraz manages to defeat him, it will be to applaud him to the endless, but, today, Sinner seems like the only one who could stop him there.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Including the next Australian Open?
If Alcaraz manages to defeat him, it will be to applaud him to the endless, but today, Sinner seems like the only one who could stop him there.

Yes, including the next Australian open.
And no, Sinner is still unproven in BO5, he lost to a wobbly Zverev in the USO 4R as recently as 2 months ago. Having a great deal of success on indoor HCs doesn't guarantee success on HC slams.

 

[junior74]

Alcaraz played poorely. Way too eager to finish points > lots of UEs from neutral position.

Still wet behind the ears.

 

[FeroBango]

Precisely what I said in the OP, Djokovic has mastered all the elements required to play well on indoor HCs while Carlos is a work in progress.

I despise the discourse that Djokovic is this 67 year-old retired bank employee is all.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Alcaraz played poorely. Way too eager to finish points > lots of UEs from neutral position.

Still wet behind the ears.

Definitely a work in progress as I said

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

I despise the discourse that Djokovic is this 67 year-old retired bank employee is all.

If you recall correctly, even Djokovic himself was destroyed on this surface in a more lopsided match (despite the closer scoreline) by a Federer who was 2 months away from his effective retirement in the 2019 edition. (yeah he officially retired in 2022 and played his last singles match in 2021, but he wasn't a factor post AO 2020)

 

[wang07]

Carlos is 20 years old, but he has 2 Slams, so he shouldn't be treated like any other young player. Federer never lost to Agassi again after winning his first GS. Alcaraz is going in the opposite direction, and it's NOT a good sign.

 

[FeroBango]

Carlos is 20 years old, but he has 2 Slams, so he shouldn't be treated like any other young player. Federer never lost to Agassi again after winning his first GS. Alcaraz is going in the opposite direction, and it's NOT a good sign.

But Djokovic of today is absolutely not the Agassi of then, even if Agassi did take Fed to 5 in one of their USO matches.

It's not an exaggeration to say that he's as nimble if not more as Agassi was in his heydays.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

But Djokovic of today is absolutely not the Agassi of then, even if Agassi did take Fed to 5 in one of their USO matches.

It's not an exaggeration to say that he's as nimble if not more as Agassi was in his heydays.

True

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

He's irredeemable for me. Even if he wins later I'll always remember how he got smacked around by an old Djokovic. Would have gotten cooked alive in the strong era.

It’s a fair point. I couldn’t see young Nadal or young Fed being 3-1 against 36 year old. I will admit.

Still he’s not big 3 level. That’s said against mere mortal tennis players he’s very good but just not out of this world or an alien like big 3.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

I may sound naive, but I'd pick Carlos over Djokovic in BO5 from now on. Fast indoor HCs are not representatives of slams.

I don’t think he’s ready to beat him in Melbourne or maybe even us open. Think Novak ahead on HC for now. Alcaraz better chances are on the neutral surfaces again with Wimbledon or french.

 

[weakera]

You're not getting my point, bro. We can't see everything just in the context of mathematics here. Fast court tennis is not that easy to master, and Carlos made it to the SF in his very first attempt, something not even Djokovic himself could manage, and yet went on to be the second greatest fast court player of this era.
Age is not always an absolute thing.

I can accept that Alcaraz may one day become a great player, but all evidence says he is not one today, at least relative to historic standards.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

I still like him but so far the entire tour has been exposed for like 4 generations now. They were supposed to take over from the big 3 (even the big 3 in their mid 30s) and it never happened. The next era will only begin bc Federer retired, Nadal finally reached his expiration date, and Novak decides he wants to go.

Fair point! Although I do think one of the young guns will take over from Djokovic. I think someone will force him out. It could be sinner, alcaraz or someone else but we will see.

 

[RS]

He is still only 20. If he is still losing to Djokovic in a couple years that's a different story.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Including the next Australian Open?
If Alcaraz manages to defeat him, it will be to applaud him to the endless, but, today, Sinner seems like the only one who could stop him there.

I think Sinner will a bigger threat on hard courts to Djokovic. Alcaraz will probably be the biggest threat to him on neutral surfaces. That’s how it looks currently. However, things change all the time.

 

[Kralingen]

He’s a great talent but I have overrated him. 25 Slams and 400 weeks at #1 is highly optimistic. I would be happy if he becomes an ATG and forms entertaining rivalries with Rune and Sinner.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Carlos is 20 years old, but he has 2 Slams, so he shouldn't be treated like any other young player. Federer never lost to Agassi again after winning his first GS. Alcaraz is going in the opposite direction, and it's NOT a good sign.

Djokovic of today is better than Agassi back then to be fair. I agree though that he needs to reverse things soon. His problem so is he’s vulnerable to quite a few players on tour not just Djokovic as we seen.

 

[jm1980]

It’s a fair point. I couldn’t see young Nadal or young Fed being 3-1 against 36 year old. I will admit.

Still he’s not big 3 level. That’s said against mere mortal tennis players he’s very good but just not out of this world or an alien like big 3.

Young Fed was much worse than this Alcaraz, with many baffling losses to weak players. He was thought of as a headcase until he was 22-23

 

[The Blond Blur]

The only issue I ever had/still have with Tiny Carl is that people were saying he’s as good (or better than Youngdal). I think the results this year have backed up my stance considering he went 1-3 vs a 36 year old Joker whereas as a same age RAFA went 6-3 (really should have been 7-2 without the horrendous umpire overrule in the Miami 05 F) vs Peakerer. It’s simply a bridge too far.

Other than that I agree that the kid is the best player to come along since Joker. Overall I think he’s better than Fedovic were at the same age minus Joker on HC (seriously that AO 08 performance is still his 2nd best run from start to finish down under). I think he’s an ATG level talent who’ll win double digit schlems (10-12), rack up multiple YE#1 finishes, and have hundreds of weeks at #1 etc. He’s already got an incredible all court game with every shot in the book. He just needs to further refine everything and he’ll be a consistent threat throughout the entire year. He’s already proven that he can play at a high level on every surface. He’ll just need to pace himself more to make sure his body holds up over an entire season. I think he’ll continue to learn and grow (not so much physically ) to become one of the greatest and most admired players ever.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Young Fed was much worse than this Alcaraz, with many baffling losses to weak players. He was thought of as a headcase until he was 22-23

True. Probably should just said Rafa. It’s too early to say as we can’t predict future but I don’t see Alcaraz dominating te 21-26 period like fed.

However, it’s just a future prediction and he might prove a lot of us wrong.

 

[jm1980]

True. Probably should just said Rafa. It’s too early to say as we can’t predict future but I don’t see Alcaraz dominating te 21-26 period like fed.

However, it’s just a future prediction and he might prove a lot of us wrong.

Young Nadal also wasn't that great on HC, and no version of Nadal was very good on indoor HC

 

[UnforcedTerror]

Young Fed was much worse than this Alcaraz, with many baffling losses to weak players. He was thought of as a headcase until he was 22-23

Not that 2006 Bull would do much better against this version of Djokovic. Bull would have lost the Cincy, Turin and Wimbledon matches.

Only at RG he could've beaten Djoko but even than is debatable imo. Bull beat injured Djoko in 2006 RG 6-4, 6-4, not a beatdown in any way and there is no doubt that 2023 Djoko is MUCH better than 2006 version of himself.

 

[FRV4]

the thing I notice about Alcaraz is he competes at the highest level. That is to say, no one dominates him. When he loses to someone he comes back and beats them the next time. Only Djokovic has been able to figure him out. Djokovic already had all the tools to beat him he just needed to figure out the right combination. I'm guessing on half the **** I say btw

 

[NoleFam]

Alcaraz served 84% 1st serves in yesterday. Against anybody else it would have been a tougher match.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Only at RG he could've beaten Djoko but even than is debatable imo.

The only debatable thing about 2006 Rafa v/s 2023 Djokovic at RG is the number of games Djokovic would win in the straight sets victory for Rafa.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

I can accept that Alcaraz may one day become a great player, but all evidence says he is not one today, at least relative to historic standards.

2 slams, 4 masters, ye#1 all at 20; no matter how weak of an era it's been is still incredible.
He is a work in progress, and we'll see what changes he can bring after a proper off season this time around.

That said, he is no Rafa.

 

[UnforcedTerror]

The only debatable thing about 2006 Rafa v/s 2023 Djokovic at RG is the number of games Djokovic would win in the straight sets victory for Rafa.

2006 injured Mugovic lost to that Bull only 4-6, 4-6. Fit GOATovic of 2023 is on a different level entirely to that version of Djokovic.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

I don’t think he’s ready to beat him in Melbourne or maybe even us open. Think Novak ahead on HC for now. Alcaraz better chances are on the neutral surfaces again with Wimbledon or french.

I think Alcaraz is the only younger player with the game and mentality to defeat Djokovic in a BO5 final. We've seen what happened to Sinner and Medvedev in BO5.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

2006 injured Mugovic lost to that Bull only 4-6, 4-6. Fit GOATovic of 2023 is on a different level entirely to that version of Djokovic.

I've got only one thing for you

 

[messiahrobins]

While Carlitos is not as incredible as 2005-2007 Rafa, he is still the greatest youngster to have broken through since Djokovic's breakthrough in 2006. But man I'd not worry about him losing 3&2 to a well playing Djokovic, the second greatest fast hardcourt player of this modern era after Federer.

I'd go as far to say that this year, post-USO has been a massive improvement for the tiny guy compared to 2022; when he lost meekly to FAA & Goffin, retired against Rune and withdrew from ATP finals. Even the USO series was an improvement over the last year except for the USO run where he played a tactically suicidal match against Medvedev who cought lightning in a bottle that day again (2 years after beating CYGSovic). Not to forget that he is not ending his season with an injury, unlike last year when his injury kept him out from the Australian summer.

Now talking about his SF loss at ATP Finals 2023, that Djokovic match was definitely closer than what the scoreline suggests. I had already predicted and posted about a straight sets win for Djokovic; because the Serb has mastered every element required for the indoor HC game, while those are still a work in progress for Alcaraz. Additionally, Novak's Serve+Return combo is still considerably superior to that of Carlitos, especially the serve which is the biggest factor when playing on fast indoor HCs.

To all those dumping Alcaraz and jumping off from his train or ship, I'd say that you all need to follow tennis regularly and analyse game elements more clearly and rationally before jumping onto conclusions about how 20yo Alcaraz couldn't beat 36 yo Djokovic and hence he is a mug etc etc.

Additionally, he is going to have the proper off season for the first time in 3 years and hence he will work on new strategies and tactics, get rehabilitation and necessary technical adjustments. Be positive, people.

Just my 2 cents here.

-Carl (DEFINITELY NOT TINY)

The problem with alcaraz is he is too arrogant. He lacks the heart of the big 3 when the going gets tough. He likes the adulation of the crowd too much and wants to hit hightlight reel shots more than do the bread and butter stuff which means he is an ufe machine.
His uso win in hindsight was a misnomer as a semi final with tiafoe and then a final against ruud is 250 strength draw. His win over djokovic at wimbledon was a misnomer to an extent as the wind meant it became a lottery much like a thiem v djokovic match at rg a few years ago. Of course in an outdoor match you have to play the elements but the point being that shot for shot alcaraz is way below the big 4, perhaps even del potro and wawrinka as well.
The jury is now firmly out on him. For me he has huge flaws in his game and with a whole bus load of italians coming up behind sinner and musetti i do question if alcaraz wins a slam again with korda likely fit next season, rune likely benefitting from boris input and sinner now looking stronger against anyone not named djokovic, albeit i question if he will ecer cope in a major final as he is metally so weak.
Alcaraz has a poor serve, average return no reliable dtlbh and an erratic forehand. He actually hasnt improved at all since his indian wells match with nadal in 2022. I thought he would by now have cut the ufes out and improved the serve.
When i saw him smiling and laughing with his camp yesterday in the 1st set it was obvious this guy lacks the inner steel and desire of the big 4. None of them did that aged 20 as they were too hungry to win and improve.
For those looking to a new era, my pick is Rune. Hiring boris is a masterstroke and he will elevate rune to the next level. Rune has that desire and nasty element which is needed to dominate. But it will be 2025 before rune really gets going. As for sinner he is a mental midget which we will all see gloriously displayed later today. The other player i think will win slams is shelton. He too has that nasty streak and is ultra competitive and sees a match as war as opposed to a ballet which alcaraz seems to think tennis is more akin to.

 

[messiahrobins]

I think Alcaraz is the only younger player with the game and mentality to defeat Djokovic in a BO5 final. We've seen what happened to Sinner and Medvedev in BO5.

No really. Wimbledon was an anomaly as it was a gale force wind. When the wind died doewn briefly djokovic was easily winning sets 1 and 4.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

No really. Wimbledon was an anomaly as it was a gale force wind. When the wind died doewn briefly djokovic was easily winning sets 1 and 4.

 

[Lauren_Girl']

2 slams, 4 masters, ye#1 all at 20; no matter how weak of an era it's been is still incredible.
He is a work in progress, and we'll see what changes he can bring after a proper off season this time around.

That said, he is no Rafa.

He is no Djokovic either. 2007 Djokovic tops 2023 Alcaraz at the same age.

Let's not forget Djokovic ONLY lost against Prime Fedal in Slams in 2007. Federer in AO/USO, Nadal in RG/WB. Doesn't mean he'd win the CYGS in 2007 but he would've definitely won USO and probably RG and Wimbledon too, without peak Fedal. He won Miami and then Montreal, with 3 consecutive top-3 wins in Canada (Roddick, Nadal, Federer). Yep, he would have finished 2007 number #1 with 2 or 3 Slams, without a doubt.

It doesn't mean 2023 is a weak era for me (on the contrary... it's weaker than 2007 but stronger than a lot of other eras of tennis) but if we compare... Prime Fedal from 2007 was still a tougher competition for Nole than 36yo Djokovic for Alcaraz in 2023. If I watch some of Djokovic's matches from 2007 (his quarter in Miami against Nadal for instance) I think he was a better player than this Alcaraz.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

the thing I notice about Alcaraz is he competes at the highest level. That is to say, no one dominates him. When he loses to someone he comes back and beats them the next time. Only Djokovic has been able to figure him out. Djokovic already had all the tools to beat him he just needed to figure out the right combination. I'm guessing on half the **** I say btw

Fast, low bouncing Indoor HC is the most perfect place for Djokovic to play Alcaraz and the most imperfect for the Spaniard.

 

[rigged]

When he turns 21 and his rival turns 37, if he loses to him again in Major tournaments it would be definitive proof that the predictions about him were overstated.

Tbh, I'd pick this Djoker over any version of him before 2011.

 

[Mustard]

Usually, all great young ATGs go on a downward spiral for a few months after having their first slam win against an established ATG. Case in point, Federer after 2001 Wimbledon, Nadal after 2005 RG, etc.

Nadal didn't go on a downward spiral after the 2005 French Open. He won Bastad, Stuttgart Outdoor, Canadian Open, Beijing, Madrid Indoors post-French Open in 2005.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Do people not see that the 36 yo Nole is almost as good as Alcaraz at covering the court if not better? He still moves like someone who's much younger than what his age suggests.

Eschew gluten, espouse peakery.

 

[tex123]

While Carlitos is not as incredible as 2005-2007 Rafa, he is still the greatest youngster to have broken through since Djokovic's breakthrough in 2006. But man I'd not worry about him losing 3&2 to a well playing Djokovic, the second greatest fast hardcourt player of this modern era after Federer.

I'd go as far to say that this year, post-USO has been a massive improvement for the tiny guy compared to 2022; when he lost meekly to FAA & Goffin, retired against Rune and withdrew from ATP finals. Even the USO series was an improvement over the last year except for the USO run where he played a tactically suicidal match against Medvedev who cought lightning in a bottle that day again (2 years after beating CYGSovic). Not to forget that he is not ending his season with an injury, unlike last year when his injury kept him out from the Australian summer.

Now talking about his SF loss at ATP Finals 2023, that Djokovic match was definitely closer than what the scoreline suggests. I had already predicted and posted about a straight sets win for Djokovic; because the Serb has mastered every element required for the indoor HC game, while those are still a work in progress for Alcaraz. Additionally, Novak's Serve+Return combo is still considerably superior to that of Carlitos, especially the serve which is the biggest factor when playing on fast indoor HCs.

To all those dumping Alcaraz and jumping off from his train or ship, I'd say that you all need to follow tennis regularly and analyse game elements more clearly and rationally before jumping onto conclusions about how 20yo Alcaraz couldn't beat 36 yo Djokovic and hence he is a mug etc etc.

Additionally, he is going to have the proper off season for the first time in 3 years and hence he will work on new strategies and tactics, get rehabilitation and necessary technical adjustments. Be positive, people.

Just my 2 cents here.

-Carl (DEFINITELY NOT TINY)

Please just stop it. Just stop it. Stop making excuses for this generation.

There's no doubt he's talented. He was there with the world at his feet after W. I forgave him for his ill preparation at the FO. He became fixated on no 1. He lost how many consecutive matches? 8? 9? I've lost count. Djokovic literally gave him no 1.

There's no way a 36 year old should be making a mincemeat out of a 20 year old once in a generation player.

 

[tudwell]

Carlos is 20 years old, but he has 2 Slams, so he shouldn't be treated like any other young player. Federer never lost to Agassi again after winning his first GS. Alcaraz is going in the opposite direction, and it's NOT a good sign.

Federer was almost 22 when he won his first. Alcaraz just 19. Very different trajectories. Alcaraz’s so far is more similar to Nadal’s – and Nadal struggled to translate his game to all surfaces until he was about 22. And even if it takes Alcaraz longer, even if he never approaches Big 3-level domination, he’s still a phenom and will almost certainly end up having a remarkable tennis career. And a 35-year-old Djokovic is not 35-year-old Agassi, either.