A Question for the 5.0 players

If you think logically... only 50% of the time the opponent is serving.... and out of that you only need ONE good game..... so there is nothing to be frustrated about on missing all returns on all other games than that one good game. Let him have 40-0 holds all the time, except that one good game... thats all you need... assuming that he has his weakness (levelling part).

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
However, when I miss a lot of returns and I can't even start the point, that's frustrating, whether I'm on the tour or not.
Click to expand...
 
Watch big3 play servebots.... do they have trouble with their serves, absolutely.... you will see a lot of aces... but they KNOW that they WILL get that opportunity once it a set, and they are glad to wait for it. But to be able to do this, they have to keep their head clean, and keep their serve games nice and smooth so that when the opportunity presents they are not behind.
 
SV10is said:
My best kicks jump above players at the baseline, so a little over 6 feet on a good one. But second bar on the back fence?! That's huge.

How hard does he hit a flat serve? I'm guessing he can hit >120 mph on a good one, although he may trade off some pace for spin and may hit slower like 110 or 115, but very heavy.
Click to expand...
yep, 120+... but he mentioned he doesn't go for it as often because it's less consistent... he prefers to hit a monster well placed kicker, and win with serve+N patterns.
There was a promo event yesterday at the local court and the guy there talked about some player he knew who could get absurd height on those -- hitting the back fence >6 feet off the ground. That guy apparently sent every other ball through the fence on flat serves and regularly hit above 120 mph.

He also brought a radar to clock serves. I only tried two because there was a huge line up to try. I hit 106 mph out wide, but hit the tape at 112 mph trying to go down the T on the second one. I guess your hitting partner there would find it a little dainty -- like, he's casually popping 100 mph warming up. If the kick is that big, he must be able to hit really hard.
Click to expand...
112 (108 avg) is pretty good
i got to hit against a wta player and a 16y that played 'zoo, a few times this last week, including serves&returns... they were both hitting 110 avg (105-115 range)
imo better than most 4.5 serves ive seen, and definitely good enough for 5.0... what level are you?
i'm happy with 95 :p
 
Last edited:
Morch Us said:
I guess you are probably an outlier. If your net game is A LOT stronger than your peers, then it probably make sense that most of your opponents has better serves AND ground strokes than you. That is probably the "levelling factor".
Click to expand...

I'm not probably an outlier; I'm definitely an outlier. After all, no one S&V anymore.

I think my net game is at least a half level better than my ground game.
 
Morch Us said:
If you think logically... only 50% of the time the opponent is serving.... and out of that you only need ONE good game..... so there is nothing to be frustrated about on missing all returns on all other games than that one good game. Let him have 40-0 holds all the time, except that one good game... thats all you need... assuming that he has his weakness (levelling part).
Click to expand...

Since when is tennis logical? :)
 
nyta2 said:
yep, 120+... but he mentioned he doesn't go for it as often because it's less consistent... he prefers to hit a monster well placed kicker, and win with serve+N patterns.

112 (108 avg) is pretty good
i got to hit against a wta player and a 16y that played 'zoo, a few times this last week, including serves&returns... they were both hitting 110 avg (105-115 range)
imo better than most 4.5 serves ive seen, and definitely good enough for 5.0... what level are you?
i'm happy with 95 :p
Click to expand...

In a match, I am probably hitting closer to 100-105 than 110 when I flatten it out to retain consistency. I also tend to do what your friend does and employ kick serves fairly often.

I've never played a rated opponents, so I have no idea what's my rating. I guess maybe 4.0? I definitely can serve harder than almost all 4.5s and many 5.0s, but the rest of their game often seem superior to mine from what I can see online.

Specifically, their ground strokes are more consistent, they move better around the court and their returns are really good. I'd probably also need to work more on my flat serve accuracy to play such players. I can beat much better players than me on pace, but I better not miss my target because that ball will be coming back very fast.

And, well, 95 mph isn't a bad serve. If you can hit your targets regularly and can vary with kickers and slices, it's fast enough to catch a lot of people if they misread your serve.
 
I played one last week in dubs. 1.95 m tall guy. Fortunately put a lot into net. Haven't played against a serve that fast before and I ve been playing over 30 years. I dropped 2 m behind and tried to move fwd and block. I returned a few. But if it was near the line forget it. If he learnt a short slider you d be screwed. Weirdly his second serve was a tame slice.
 
ubercat said:
I played one last week in dubs. 1.95 m tall guy. Fortunately put a lot into net. Haven't played against a serve that fast before and I ve been playing over 30 years. I dropped 2 m behind and tried to move fwd and block. I returned a few. But if it was near the line forget it. If he learnt a short slider you d be screwed. Weirdly his second serve was a tame slice.
Click to expand...

I've seen a lot of people who have a decent flat serve, but they can't hit a proper kick serve. So, for their second serve, they'll hit that kind of slowish flat serve with a bit of slice in there and it puts a lot of pressure on them to make that first serve because the drop in quality is pretty dramatic.

It's not that easy to hit a kick serve and it takes some time to develop it.
 
Morch Us said:
If you think logically... only 50% of the time the opponent is serving.... and out of that you only need ONE good game..... so there is nothing to be frustrated about on missing all returns on all other games than that one good game. Let him have 40-0 holds all the time, except that one good game... thats all you need... assuming that he has his weakness (levelling part).
Click to expand...

Dude we're not professionals where they need just one break to own a set. Rec players don't hold their serves well. Many sets are breaks galore.

Plus, rec players mindsets are fragile. If you make too many UEs you may unwittingly boost the other guy's confidence and destroy your own. We're not Nadal.
 
user92626 said:
Dude we're not professionals where they need just one break to own a set. Rec players don't hold their serves well. Many sets are breaks galore.

Plus, rec players mindsets are fragile. If you make too many UEs you may unwittingly boost the other guy's confidence and destroy your own. We're not Nadal.
Click to expand...

Agreed, even at 5.0 I most of the time am able to get a break per set. That means during the sets I lose they’re breaking me at least twice… Rec tennis is full of breaks at all levels.
 
Against a servebot (someone with at least one level up serve)? Of course if they lose their service game more than once, they are not a servebot for the level by any definision. (which means, if you lose your serve game more than once against them all the time, either you are not at their level or have a real matchup issue).

Not sure whether you missed that this was specifically an answert to a servebot frustration question.

MyFearHand said:
even at 5.0 I most of the time am able to get a break per set.
Click to expand...

user92626 said:
Rec players don't hold their serves well.
Click to expand...
 
Morch Us said:
Against a servebot (someone with at least one level up serve)? Of course if they lose their service game more than once, they are not a servebot for the level by any definision. (which means, if you lose your serve game more than once against them all the time, either you are not at their level or have a real matchup issue).

Not sure whether you missed that this was specifically an answert to a servebot frustration question.
Click to expand...
Nadal can win a bunch of games for championship and can also lose first round. Nobody in their right mind would say Nadal is not anyone's level.

Rec is even crazier than professional. That is because there's even many more variables in rec than pro. If you see this as level or matchup issue, you're simply shortsighted.
 
Morch Us said:
Against a servebot (someone with at least one level up serve)? Of course if they lose their service game more than once, they are not a servebot for the level by any definision. (which means, if you lose your serve game more than once against them all the time, either you are not at their level or have a real matchup issue).

Not sure whether you missed that this was specifically an answert to a servebot frustration question.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't see that part. I would say it's pretty rare at 4.5+ though, much more likely for players to have really good returns.
 
optic yellow said:
The last two full sets I played had 6 breaks in 12 games and 7 breaks in 10 games loool.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of the times it isn’t even the serves themselves. There are plenty of rec players with decent serves but then they blow the first ball by going for too much or give up their advantage by not going for enough. The first ball is hard to get a lot of reps on unless you have a willing practice partner.
 
MyFearHand said:
I think a lot of the times it isn’t even the serves themselves. There are plenty of rec players with decent serves but then they blow the first ball by going for too much or give up their advantage by not going for enough. The first ball is hard to get a lot of reps on unless you have a willing practice partner.
Click to expand...
You mean the third hit of the rally?
 
MyFearHand said:
Yes, sorry. The first ball they hit after their serve, the third shot of the rally.
Click to expand...
Well it wasn't that unclear if I guessed it so I don't think you need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure so I didn't spend any effort writing a response on faulty premises. Clearly it is easier to preach self-trust to others than it is to practice it personally. :cry:

Back to the tennis, it is interesting that this is such a source of errors as it was something I had never considered. I must admit I don't quite understand how it is something difficult to get reps on because it seems like a natural addition to serve/return practice, unless this is what you mean by having a willing partner, but I can definitely see how someone falls into that trap of being unsure about what to do, especially if they are at your level where they know their serve is enough of a weapon that they can put the pressure of "should win this" on themselves. I think it builds on what you told me a month or whatever back about how players at your level will mishit neutral rally balls not because they lack the ability but because they are knocked off-kilter by feeling the need to do something proactive with them.
 
optic yellow said:
Well it wasn't that unclear if I guessed it so I don't think you need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure so I didn't spend any effort writing a response on faulty premises. Clearly it is easier to preach self-trust to others than it is to practice it personally. :cry:

Back to the tennis, it is interesting that this is such a source of errors as it was something I had never considered. I must admit I don't quite understand how it is something difficult to get reps on because it seems like a natural addition to serve/return practice, unless this is what you mean by having a willing partner, but I can definitely see how someone falls into that trap of being unsure about what to do, especially if they are at your level where they know their serve is enough of a weapon that they can put the pressure of "should win this" on themselves. I think it builds on what you told me a month or whatever back about how players at your level will mishit neutral rally balls not because they lack the ability but because they are knocked off-kilter by feeling the need to do something proactive with them.
Click to expand...

I see this at basically 3.5+. People hit a good serve for their level and then they (most of the time) over hit that +1 shot. Although as level increases you get more of a mix of some people over hitting and some people yielding the advantage.

For a willing partner I mean someone who will just practice serve, return and a +1 over and over without playing the point out. Just grab a bucket of balls and drill those shots exclusively to get more reps in.

I also think that thing I told you about neutral balls and missing happens at all levels too. I think for the most part in rec tennis the ideas behind the mistakes are similar, it’s just the quality of ball to cause these mistakes increases. This isn’t universally true but I think it’s true more often than not.
 
MyFearHand said:
I see this at basically 3.5+. People hit a good serve for their level and then they (most of the time) over hit that +1 shot. Although as level increases you get more of a mix of some people over hitting and some people yielding the advantage.

For a willing partner I mean someone who will just practice serve, return and a +1 over and over without playing the point out. Just grab a bucket of balls and drill those shots exclusively to get more reps in.

I also think that thing I told you about neutral balls and missing happens at all levels too. I think for the most part in rec tennis the ideas behind the mistakes are similar, it’s just the quality of ball to cause these mistakes increases. This isn’t universally true but I think it’s true more often than not.
Click to expand...
Why do they yield the advantage at higher levels but not lower levels? I am not doubting this but cannot figure out the explanation.

It seems like that should be less difficult to find than you are making it sound it is. Serve practice for one person is usually equally good return practice for the other. I suppose practicing tennis competes for limited recreational time with playing tennis however.

This actually makes sense to me. It's the same concept of not being able to execute a shot while not under pressure, just the shots that do not put someone under pressure and the shots that they feel like they need to hit back in response are more difficult shots (when looking at things absolutely) at the 5.0 level. It really does boil down to a lack of self-trust I think and that is certainly pervasive across all levels of a competitive endeavor.
 
optic yellow said:
Why do they yield the advantage at higher levels but not lower levels? I am not doubting this but cannot figure out the explanation.

It seems like that should be less difficult to find than you are making it sound it is. Serve practice for one person is usually equally good return practice for the other. I suppose practicing tennis competes for limited recreational time with playing tennis however.

This actually makes sense to me. It's the same concept of not being able to execute a shot while not under pressure, just the shots that do not put someone under pressure and the shots that they feel like they need to hit back in response are more difficult shots (when looking at things absolutely) at the 5.0 level. It really does boil down to a lack of self-trust I think and that is certainly pervasive across all levels of a competitive endeavor.
Click to expand...

I think it’s because at higher levels there are more players who have fully embraced being consistent. So when they get a weaker return from a serve they may not try to do as much with it as they should. They’d rather make sure they make the ball than try to make the ball cause damage.
 
Rafaboy said:
4.5 and 5.0 is not that big a difference, depends on the player, either can win.
Click to expand...

The difference between a mid x vs a mid x+0.5 is the same across the spectrum: an expected 0&0 or 1&1 victory for the higher-rated player.

I, a mid-4.5, have yet to play a mid-5.0 and think "eh, it's a toss-up who wins this."

It doesn't depend on who the 5.0 is: the fact that they're a mid-5.0 means they are clearly better than I, not just slightly better or "on any given day" better. Just better.
 
When I was 5.0 and played an average 4.5 in league or practice, I felt the 4.5 player had an obvious weakness I could play too. Most had one of the three weaknesses: lack consistency (most common), have consistency but not able to hit with enough pace, or did not move well on the court.
 
MyFearHand said:
I think it’s because at higher levels there are more players who have fully embraced being consistent. So when they get a weaker return from a serve they may not try to do as much with it as they should. They’d rather make sure they make the ball than try to make the ball cause damage.
Click to expand...
Pushers exist at the 3.5 level! As you say this I realize I think it is also because the standards for "not as much as they should" are much lower. When people cannot reliably punish weak balls there is less downside to hitting them weak.
 
optic yellow said:
Pushers exist at the 3.5 level! As you say this I realize I think it is also because the standards for "not as much as they should" are much lower. When people cannot reliably punish weak balls there is less downside to hitting them weak.
Click to expand...

For sure pushers exist at 3.5. But these players are already pretty successful and they probably don’t need a better serve + 1 to hold serve.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
The difference between a mid x vs a mid x+0.5 is the same across the spectrum: an expected 0&0 or 1&1 victory for the higher-rated player.

I, a mid-4.5, have yet to play a mid-5.0 and think "eh, it's a toss-up who wins this."

It doesn't depend on who the 5.0 is: the fact that they're a mid-5.0 means they are clearly better than I, not just slightly better or "on any given day" better. Just better.
Click to expand...
ha yeah. especially if they are self rated? lol
 
Yamin said:
Difference between 4.5s I hit with and the 4.5's at sectionals was pretty enormous on its own... wouldn't say it's a small difference.
Click to expand...
what region are you in? i was at sectionals for eastern region (40y+ 4.5)
for me, i felt everyone was close, the main difference is the depth of the teams... 1S to 3D seemed interchangeable
but definitely a big difference compared to mid5.0's (best guys at sectionals were guys who were recently bumped down (low)5.0's, and definitely on the border of 4.5/5.0 per tennisrecord)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

W
How do you scout/evaluate an opponent
Replies
6
Views
1K
dennis10is
D
J
Going from 4.5 to 5.0 level-what best to focus on?
Replies
39
Views
8K
Chas Tennis
C
P
4.5 vs 5.0
Replies
33
Views
1K
nyta2
N
aminadream
My biggest struggle moving from 4.5 to 5.0...
2
Replies
71
Views
4K
5263
5263
Davis937
Serving information ...
Replies
23
Views
2K
Davis937
Davis937
Back
Top