Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Then they are not at the same level as you. There has to be a "levelling part"...
t's not a given that they will have markedly inferior GSs
t's not a given that they will have markedly inferior GSs
since my strength is the net
However, when I miss a lot of returns and I can't even start the point, that's frustrating, whether I'm on the tour or not.
yep, 120+... but he mentioned he doesn't go for it as often because it's less consistent... he prefers to hit a monster well placed kicker, and win with serve+N patterns.My best kicks jump above players at the baseline, so a little over 6 feet on a good one. But second bar on the back fence?! That's huge.
How hard does he hit a flat serve? I'm guessing he can hit >120 mph on a good one, although he may trade off some pace for spin and may hit slower like 110 or 115, but very heavy.
112 (108 avg) is pretty goodThere was a promo event yesterday at the local court and the guy there talked about some player he knew who could get absurd height on those -- hitting the back fence >6 feet off the ground. That guy apparently sent every other ball through the fence on flat serves and regularly hit above 120 mph.
He also brought a radar to clock serves. I only tried two because there was a huge line up to try. I hit 106 mph out wide, but hit the tape at 112 mph trying to go down the T on the second one. I guess your hitting partner there would find it a little dainty -- like, he's casually popping 100 mph warming up. If the kick is that big, he must be able to hit really hard.
Then they are not at the same level as you. There has to be a "levelling part"...
I guess you are probably an outlier. If your net game is A LOT stronger than your peers, then it probably make sense that most of your opponents has better serves AND ground strokes than you. That is probably the "levelling factor".
If you think logically... only 50% of the time the opponent is serving.... and out of that you only need ONE good game..... so there is nothing to be frustrated about on missing all returns on all other games than that one good game. Let him have 40-0 holds all the time, except that one good game... thats all you need... assuming that he has his weakness (levelling part).
yep, 120+... but he mentioned he doesn't go for it as often because it's less consistent... he prefers to hit a monster well placed kicker, and win with serve+N patterns.
112 (108 avg) is pretty good
i got to hit against a wta player and a 16y that played 'zoo, a few times this last week, including serves&returns... they were both hitting 110 avg (105-115 range)
imo better than most 4.5 serves ive seen, and definitely good enough for 5.0... what level are you?
i'm happy with 95![]()
I played one last week in dubs. 1.95 m tall guy. Fortunately put a lot into net. Haven't played against a serve that fast before and I ve been playing over 30 years. I dropped 2 m behind and tried to move fwd and block. I returned a few. But if it was near the line forget it. If he learnt a short slider you d be screwed. Weirdly his second serve was a tame slice.
I'm not probably an outlier; I'm definitely an outlier. After all, no one S&V anymore.
I started doing it more systematically this year. It's a fun way to play, it puts my best assets forward and I play a lot of doubles so those are skills I often use anyways.
The art is rising from its ashes. XD
Now we have to recruit more members!
If you think logically... only 50% of the time the opponent is serving.... and out of that you only need ONE good game..... so there is nothing to be frustrated about on missing all returns on all other games than that one good game. Let him have 40-0 holds all the time, except that one good game... thats all you need... assuming that he has his weakness (levelling part).
Dude we're not professionals where they need just one break to own a set. Rec players don't hold their serves well. Many sets are breaks galore.
Plus, rec players mindsets are fragile. If you make too many UEs you may unwittingly boost the other guy's confidence and destroy your own. We're not Nadal.
even at 5.0 I most of the time am able to get a break per set.
Rec players don't hold their serves well.
Nadal can win a bunch of games for championship and can also lose first round. Nobody in their right mind would say Nadal is not anyone's level.Against a servebot (someone with at least one level up serve)? Of course if they lose their service game more than once, they are not a servebot for the level by any definision. (which means, if you lose your serve game more than once against them all the time, either you are not at their level or have a real matchup issue).
Not sure whether you missed that this was specifically an answert to a servebot frustration question.
Against a servebot (someone with at least one level up serve)? Of course if they lose their service game more than once, they are not a servebot for the level by any definision. (which means, if you lose your serve game more than once against them all the time, either you are not at their level or have a real matchup issue).
Not sure whether you missed that this was specifically an answert to a servebot frustration question.
The last two full sets I played had 6 breaks in 12 games and 7 breaks in 10 games loool.Agreed, even at 5.0 I most of the time am able to get a break per set. That means during the sets I lose they’re breaking me at least twice… Rec tennis is full of breaks at all levels.
The last two full sets I played had 6 breaks in 12 games and 7 breaks in 10 games loool.
You mean the third hit of the rally?I think a lot of the times it isn’t even the serves themselves. There are plenty of rec players with decent serves but then they blow the first ball by going for too much or give up their advantage by not going for enough. The first ball is hard to get a lot of reps on unless you have a willing practice partner.
You mean the third hit of the rally?
Well it wasn't that unclear if I guessed it so I don't think you need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure so I didn't spend any effort writing a response on faulty premises. Clearly it is easier to preach self-trust to others than it is to practice it personally.Yes, sorry. The first ball they hit after their serve, the third shot of the rally.
Well it wasn't that unclear if I guessed it so I don't think you need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure so I didn't spend any effort writing a response on faulty premises. Clearly it is easier to preach self-trust to others than it is to practice it personally.
Back to the tennis, it is interesting that this is such a source of errors as it was something I had never considered. I must admit I don't quite understand how it is something difficult to get reps on because it seems like a natural addition to serve/return practice, unless this is what you mean by having a willing partner, but I can definitely see how someone falls into that trap of being unsure about what to do, especially if they are at your level where they know their serve is enough of a weapon that they can put the pressure of "should win this" on themselves. I think it builds on what you told me a month or whatever back about how players at your level will mishit neutral rally balls not because they lack the ability but because they are knocked off-kilter by feeling the need to do something proactive with them.
Why do they yield the advantage at higher levels but not lower levels? I am not doubting this but cannot figure out the explanation.I see this at basically 3.5+. People hit a good serve for their level and then they (most of the time) over hit that +1 shot. Although as level increases you get more of a mix of some people over hitting and some people yielding the advantage.
For a willing partner I mean someone who will just practice serve, return and a +1 over and over without playing the point out. Just grab a bucket of balls and drill those shots exclusively to get more reps in.
I also think that thing I told you about neutral balls and missing happens at all levels too. I think for the most part in rec tennis the ideas behind the mistakes are similar, it’s just the quality of ball to cause these mistakes increases. This isn’t universally true but I think it’s true more often than not.
Why do they yield the advantage at higher levels but not lower levels? I am not doubting this but cannot figure out the explanation.
It seems like that should be less difficult to find than you are making it sound it is. Serve practice for one person is usually equally good return practice for the other. I suppose practicing tennis competes for limited recreational time with playing tennis however.
This actually makes sense to me. It's the same concept of not being able to execute a shot while not under pressure, just the shots that do not put someone under pressure and the shots that they feel like they need to hit back in response are more difficult shots (when looking at things absolutely) at the 5.0 level. It really does boil down to a lack of self-trust I think and that is certainly pervasive across all levels of a competitive endeavor.
4.5 and 5.0 is not that big a difference, depends on the player, either can win.
Difference between 4.5s I hit with and the 4.5's at sectionals was pretty enormous on its own... wouldn't say it's a small difference.
5.0s are just 4.5s who are 5.0s.
In many cases, 5.0s are 4.5s who are single.5.0s are just 4.5s who are 5.0s.
4.5 and 5.0 is not that big a difference, depends on the player, either can win.
Pushers exist at the 3.5 level! As you say this I realize I think it is also because the standards for "not as much as they should" are much lower. When people cannot reliably punish weak balls there is less downside to hitting them weak.I think it’s because at higher levels there are more players who have fully embraced being consistent. So when they get a weaker return from a serve they may not try to do as much with it as they should. They’d rather make sure they make the ball than try to make the ball cause damage.
Pushers exist at the 3.5 level! As you say this I realize I think it is also because the standards for "not as much as they should" are much lower. When people cannot reliably punish weak balls there is less downside to hitting them weak.
I honestly don't really think there is much need to think of the serve + 1 as a concept at that level.For sure pushers exist at 3.5. But these players are already pretty successful and they probably don’t need a better serve + 1 to hold serve.
Serve in the box + don't miss the first ball.I honestly don't really think there is much need to think of the serve + 1 as a concept at that level.
Exactly. You don't need serve + 1 to understand it when it's that simple!Serve in the box + don't miss the first ball.
J
ha yeah. especially if they are self rated? lolThe difference between a mid x vs a mid x+0.5 is the same across the spectrum: an expected 0&0 or 1&1 victory for the higher-rated player.
I, a mid-4.5, have yet to play a mid-5.0 and think "eh, it's a toss-up who wins this."
It doesn't depend on who the 5.0 is: the fact that they're a mid-5.0 means they are clearly better than I, not just slightly better or "on any given day" better. Just better.
exactly my pointDifference between 4.5s I hit with and the 4.5's at sectionals was pretty enormous on its own... wouldn't say it's a small difference.
what region are you in? i was at sectionals for eastern region (40y+ 4.5)Difference between 4.5s I hit with and the 4.5's at sectionals was pretty enormous on its own... wouldn't say it's a small difference.