A Visit to The Music City Challenger: Frames and Playing Styles

BounceHitBounceHit

BounceHitBounceHit

Legend
Greetings All,

Had the pleasure today of spending a few hours at The Music City Challenger, an event where pros 'just below' the ATP Tour level vie for points and rankings to gain entrance to main tour events. These players are typically in the 200-300 range, although some are already ranked much higher. Vince Spadea is the #1 seed, and there are numerous other very fine players participating, including John Isner, Bobby Reynolds, Zach Fleischman, Scoville Jenkins, Donald Young, Amer Delic, Brian Baker, etc. Should be a fun week of tennis-watching for me! ;) I met up with Bolt and we took in several matches, including one where we spent some quality time with a friend of mine who is a ATP Tour level coach. It was cool to listen to his insights regarding the progression of the match.

Bolt and I were both struck by how many players were using mids. At one point, 5/8 players on court were wielding a mid. Most popular (by far) seemed to be the Head LM/FXP Prestige mid, followed by the Yellow Yonnie Mid. We also saw a few players swinging the K90. There were of course numerous MP's as well, including the ever popular nCode 6.1 95, FXP Prestige MP's, and the Babolat Pure Controls and Pure Drive/Aero Pro Drives. A smattering of the various Prince O3/Speedport frames rounded out the mix.

Another striking feature of what we saw was the 're-birth' (??) of the all court game. There was plenty of serve and volley tennis being played (including some w/ full Luxilon string jobs!!) ;) Most everyone seemed to know how to hit a slice backhand and no one seemed at all hesitant to move forward to end the point at net when the opportunity presented itself.

Overall, a great day of tennis. Feel free to discuss, comment, etc.

Best,

CC
 
Last edited:
Wow, i can hear the excitement in your writing... sounds like a cool weekend.

Good to hear/see that S&V tennis is still around and hopefully gaining some more momentum!

Mids, you say? Interesting... It would be nice for some of these players break through, advance on the tour... with a S&V game, playing mid-size racquets!

Nice report!
 
jcstennis said:
Wow, i can hear the excitement in your writing... sounds like a cool weekend.

Good to hear/see that S&V tennis is still around and hopefully gaining some more momentum!

Mids, you say? Interesting... It would be nice for some of these players break through, advance on the tour... with a S&V game, playing mid-size racquets!

Nice report!
Click to expand...

Thanks! :)

Yes, it was fun today and we'll be back tomorrow.

I will be willing to bet than within the next few years we will see more all court play and even some s/v re-emerge on the ATP Tour.

Best,

CC
 
What is the speed of the courts Craig? Have you played on them before?

P.S. did you catch my review of the "Mojo Rig"?

J
 
J011yroger said:
What is the speed of the courts Craig? Have you played on them before?

P.S. did you catch my review of the "Mojo Rig"?

J
Click to expand...

Jo11y!!

Yes indeed my friend. These are the very same courts where I wage my daily tennis campaigns, Monday thru Sunday, 7:30am to 9:30am!! ;) They are true 'medium speed' hardcourts at a very nice indoor facility.

And I thought your Mojo Rig review as spot on. ;) See my comments in that thread.

Oh, and I am going to be in NYC the weekend of December 12. Any chance of scaring up an indoor hit in the City, or am I dreaming?

Best,

CC
 
cujays said:
did you see donald young?
Click to expand...

Not today. This was the 'qualies' for the main draw of the challenger. DY has now accrued some points and is a 'direct in' to the tournament. However last year I watched DY lose his match and sat with him mom the entire time, jawing it up like old friends. She is a very nice lady, and I wish them both the best. ;) CC
 
cujays said:
did you see donald young?
Click to expand...

No, because I just saw him beat Oudsema in the semis in Louisville just a few minutes ago. :)

Also saw Isner get beat by a nice looking German player named Bachinger. I think Young will beat him in the finals though. Should be a good match.

Man it's fun watching these guys play at such small venues.
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Jo11y!!

Yes indeed my friend. These are the very same courts where I wage my daily tennis campaigns, Monday thru Sunday, 7:30am to 9:30am!! ;) They are true 'medium speed' hardcourts at a very nice indoor facility.

And I thought your Mojo Rig review as spot on. ;) See my comments in that thread.

Oh, and I am going to be in NYC the weekend of December 12. Any chance of scaring up an indoor hit in the City, or am I dreaming?

Best,

CC
Click to expand...

Hmmm I am not too familiar with the indoor facilities in the city, but if anyone can make it happen I can.

Where are you staying?

J
 
Oh yeah, I saw mostly Head Prestiges, Wilson K6.1's, and a lot of Babolats (Pure Drives and Controls). Only two Princes that I saw were used by Isner and Michael Russel. Oudsema was using a Tecnifibre but other than that, it was pretty much dominated by Head, Wilson, and Babolat.

In the finals Bachinger will be using what looked like a painted Head FP Prestige Mid and Young will be using a version of the MG RAdical.
 
Craig, can you try to see the Fleishman/McClune first round match and tell me about it. I am fond of both those players. I think McClune is defintiely one to watch.

Of the matches that you saw today, did you happen to catch Tecau/Wolmarans? They are good friends, played each last week, and that score looked pretty tense.
 
Fee said:
Craig, can you try to see the Fleishman/McClune first round match and tell me about it. I am fond of both those players. I think McClune is defintiely one to watch.

Of the matches that you saw today, did you happen to catch Tecau/Wolmarans? They are good friends, played each last week, and that score looked pretty tense.
Click to expand...

That match was a good one. Those guys were just blistering each other left and right.
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Another striking feature of what we saw was the 're-birth' (??) of the all court game. There was plenty of serve and volley tennis being played (including some w/ full Luxilon string jobs!!) ;) Most everyone seemed to know how to hit a slice backhand and no one seemed at all hesitant to move forward to end the point at net when the opportunity presented itself.

Overall, a great day of tennis. Feel free to discuss, comment, etc.

Best,

CC
Click to expand...

if the return to more all court play were only so. i dont see it happening unless they make a change in surfaces <too late to roll back gear>. there are players now who can play serve and volley quite well, but the percentage just doesnt seem to be there to do it these days save for those who have no other options . when Fish was coming out, people said the same thing...how there would be a resurgance of s/v. the thinking was he could be typical of the next gen of all courters/serve volleyers...big guy with a two hander..never happened

as to the all Lux stringjobs. as reported by a tour stringer the trend is going away from the majority poly mains/gut crosses more towards gut mains/poly crosses (works ok for Fed), so likely you are seeing fewer all Lux stringjobs out there as well
 
NoBadMojo said:
if the return to more all court play were only so. i dont see it happening unless they make a change in surfaces <too late to roll back gear>. there are players now who can play serve and volley quite well, but the percentage just doesnt seem to be there to do it these days save for those who have no other options . when Fish was coming out, people said the same thing...how there would be a resurgance of s/v. the thinking was he could be typical of the next gen of all courters/serve volleyers...big guy with a two hander..never happened

as to the all Lux stringjobs. as reported by a tour stringer the trend is going away from the majority poly mains/gut crosses more towards gut mains/poly crosses (works ok for Fed), so likely you are seeing fewer all Lux stringjobs out there as well
Click to expand...


Greetings Mojo,

Just reporting on what I saw. ;) I know we are both hoping for a resurgence of the all court game. Can't a man dream?? :) As for the all Lux string jobs, MOST of the guys had hybrids. BUT one who served and volleyd most every point was playing all Lux. His kicker was killer.

Best,

CC
 
Fee said:
Craig, can you try to see the Fleishman/McClune first round match and tell me about it. I am fond of both those players. I think McClune is defintiely one to watch.

Of the matches that you saw today, did you happen to catch Tecau/Wolmarans? They are good friends, played each last week, and that score looked pretty tense.
Click to expand...


Will do! Hope they play at night because I have a crazy busy week coming up at work. :) CC
 
couch said:
No, because I just saw him beat Oudsema in the semis in Louisville just a few minutes ago. :) Also saw Isner get beat by a nice looking German player named Bachinger. I think Young will beat him in the finals though. Should be a good match.

Man it's fun watching these guys play at such small venues.
Click to expand...


Cool Couch. Looks like DY may be bringing some serious momentum to Music City. ;) CC
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Greetings Mojo,

Just reporting on what I saw. ;) I know we are both hoping for a resurgence of the all court game. Can't a man dream?? :) As for the all Lux string jobs, MOST of the guys had hybrids. BUT one who served and volleyd most every point was playing all Lux. His kicker was killer.

Best,CC
Click to expand...

Wait. WHO serves and volleys that often? What is the name of this messiah. ;)

Mike Cottrill said:
Did you see Fleishman? Does he still have those strange looking strokes?
Click to expand...

Yes, Zack still has those funky strokes and that unusual service motion. Want pictures, I took plenty a few weeks ago. :)
 
Fee said:
Wait. WHO serves and volleys that often? What is the name of this messiah. ;)



Yes, Zack still has those funky strokes and that unusual service motion. Want pictures, I took plenty a few weeks ago. :)
Click to expand...


Bolt-what was his name? The guy on court #1 who looked like Lubicic? He had MONSTER first ball too. ;) CC
 
Fee said:
Here's the draw, if that helps http://www.atptennis.com/1/posting/2007/2165/qs.pdf

I can eliminate Jenkins (obviously), Smyczek, probably Reichel unless he's lost all of his hair lately, Widom, Francis, Rett, Simmonds, Gregorc, Martin, Tecau, Wolmarans, and Levine. They don't look like Ljubicic really. Does that help?
Click to expand...

guy like Jenkins and Levine has to qualify to get into a challenger event ? that is rough. they could at least make it a $100,000 event ? and i heard doubles winners only make few 1000 dollars
 
Fedace said:
guy like Jenkins and Levine has to qualify to get into a challenger event ? that is rough. they could at least make it a $100,000 event ? and i heard doubles winners only make few 1000 dollars
Click to expand...

You don't know anything about the pro circuit, do you?
 
Fee said:
You don't know anything about the pro circuit, do you?
Click to expand...

I know alot about pro circuit. I was just appalled at how little money these guys make in the challenger events. USTA could infuse little more money into these events to help out the young pros making it up the ranks.
 
So I was right. Yes, the USTA should increase the prize money for all of the Challengers and Futures events that they sponsor, for both men and women, throught out the year. Because they have an unlimited source of funds.

And you are surprised that Levine and Jenkins are in the qualifying draw because...?
 
Fedace said:
I know alot about pro circuit. I was just appalled at how little money these guys make in the challenger events. USTA could infuse little more money into these events to help out the young pros making it up the ranks.
Click to expand...

If you aren't 150 in the world you are paying to play. If you are 100 in the world you make about 30 grand a year. Yes, that includes sponsorships endorsements etc. etc.

With Sam Warburg 16th american at 149 in the ATP rankings, it makes me wonder what the 16th highest payed baseball player in the US makes compared to the 16th highest tennis player who turns a profit of $11.42 give or take.

J
 
Hey Craig. I might be able to swing red dirt! I mean, we are both hard court players by trade, but it would be cool to try.

J
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Cool Couch. Looks like DY may be bringing some serious momentum to Music City. ;) CC
Click to expand...

He totally destroyed Oudsema tonight. He is looking pretty good. He has a nice all-court game which is nice to watch and seems to have gotten a lot stronger since last year when I saw him play. Seemed like he is hitting the ball with more pace and definitely has more pace on his serve, which he is going to need to be a serious threat down the road.

Looks like his game is coming along nicely. Remember he's still pretty much the youngest guy out there. ;)
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Bolt-what was his name? The guy on court #1 who looked like Lubicic? He had MONSTER first ball too. ;) CC
Click to expand...

Not sure of his name either but I know who you're talking about because he was at Louisville practicing and does look exactly like Ljubicic with the bald head. :) He did have a MONSTER serve when I saw him practicing.

Also, Brendan Evans was serving and volleying quite a bit. He gave Donald Young a pretty good match in the quarters in Louisville.
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Greetings Mojo,

Just reporting on what I saw. ;) I know we are both hoping for a resurgence of the all court game. Can't a man dream?? :) As for the all Lux string jobs, MOST of the guys had hybrids. BUT one who served and volleyd most every point was playing all Lux. His kicker was killer.

Best,

CC
Click to expand...

aha....so you've gone from stating there was lots of serve and volleying going on by various players and some all Lux jobs to one guy who serve and volleyed and one who was playing all Lux..perhaps the same goes for your statement about mids...that does it! i'm going to have to ask you to turn in your journalism creds! ;)
i realize this forum may be like reading the National Enquirer (not that I read it), but you've gone too far! ;O
 
^^^ Hey, from what I can report I am seeing more S&V in the junior ranks up here.

Watched an L1 16s tourney on dirt last weekend, and some of these kids were playing a ballsy brand of T.

They were smacking winners, hitting slice BHs, comming in to finish points, and this was on the dirt. They are even moreso on hard.

The S&V play is mostly for the element of surprise, maybe on 1/4 of the points, but hey, it is a start.

I dunno what they are feeding these kids nowadays, but there are some big strong 16 year olds out there.

Maybe there is more baseline bashing down in the sunshine state, but the all court movement is gaining ground in the junior ranks up here.

J
 
J011yroger said:
^^^ Hey, from what I can report I am seeing more S&V in the junior ranks up here.

Watched an L1 16s tourney on dirt last weekend, and some of these kids were playing a ballsy brand of T.

They were smacking winners, hitting slice BHs, comming in to finish points, and this was on the dirt. They are even moreso on hard.

The S&V play is mostly for the element of surprise, maybe on 1/4 of the points, but hey, it is a start.

I dunno what they are feeding these kids nowadays, but there are some big strong 16 year olds out there.

Maybe there is more baseline bashing down in the sunshine state, but the all court movement is gaining ground in the junior ranks up here.

J
Click to expand...

hey that's good to hear, but we've been down this path for years now and the outcome has always been the same.....the game has gotten even faster....there just isnt the percentage in playing serve/volley out there at advanced levels other than in islotaed cases and with people like Miryni who havent other options...the return of serve keeps getting better...the serves have remained about the same...more mph doesnt help you to play serve/volley...and the courts keep bouncing higher...many guys now opt to return serve if they win the toss. the WTA tour is now often more about who can hold their return game rather than their serve game ;) wish it was otherwise, but looking at the sport from one tourney or one little part of the world doesnt indicate a trend i dont think..fed can serve and volley great....he does it far less now than he used to....the trend has been steadily going the other way....they got on to edbergs serve so he had to learn to stay back more....then they got onto rafters serve and he had to learn to stay back more, etc...the geometry of the game just doesnt support serve/volley very well......you can play all court however i think, but even that has also gotten tougher to do...this applies to high levels of tennis...at juniors, club levels, etc, you obviously can play more all court and serve/volley as the retrun games arent as highly tuned and the UE's are much greater


down here, the good players we have are todd martin, mal washington, amer delic, brian gottfreid and his son, and many others..many of these guys are very CAPABLE of playing serve/volley..there just aint percentage in doing it on a reg basis. Even at my lowly 5.0 level of play and being a former hardcourt serve/volleyer on both serves sort of guy, the winning percentage just isnt there when playing another 5.0 with a decent service return and passing game
 
Last edited:
J011yroger said:
^^^ Hey, from what I can report I am seeing more S&V in the junior ranks up here...

...Maybe there is more baseline bashing down in the sunshine state, but the all court movement is gaining ground in the junior ranks up here.

J
Click to expand...

Anecdotally, I've been seeing this more here also(PNW). My kids started playing juniors last year so I get a chance to see the top juniors at our club play a lot. Our close friend's son just won the Little Mo Nationals at U11 and even though he is a LITTLE guy, he plays fantastic all-court tennis.

We also have a the #4 U14 boy and the #11 U16 girls as well as a generally strong juniors program and while there is plenty of 10-min moonball baseline rallying, the top players have a much more varied game, girls included.
 
NoBadMojo said:
hey that's good to hear, but we've been down this path for years now and the outcome has always been the same.....the game has gotten even faster....there just isnt the percentage in playing serve/volley out there at advanced levels other than in islotaed cases and with people like Miryni who havent other options...the return of serve keeps getting better...the serves have remained about the same...more mph doesnt help you to play serve/volley...and the courts keep bouncing higher...many guys now opt to return serve if they win the toss. the WTA tour is now often more about who can hold their return game rather than their serve game ;) wish it was otherwise, but looking at the sport from one tourney or one little part of the world doesnt indicate a trend i dont think..fed can serve and volley great....he does it far less now than he used to....the trend has been steadily going the other way....they got on to edbergs serve so he had to learn to stay back more....then they got onto rafters serve and he had to learn to stay back more, etc...the geometry of the game just doesnt support serve/volley very well......you can play all court however i think, but even that has also gotten tougher to do...this applies to high levels of tennis...at juniors, club levels, etc, you obviously can play more all court and serve/volley as the retrun games arent as highly tuned and the UE's are much greater


down here, the good players we have are todd martin, mal washington, amer delic, brian gottfreid and his son, and many others..many of these guys are very CAPABLE of playing serve/volley..there just aint percentage in doing it on a reg basis. Even at my lowly 5.0 level of play and being a former hardcourt serve/volleyer on both serves sort of guy, the winning percentage just isnt there when playing another 5.0 with a decent service return and passing game
Click to expand...

Ya, I dig it. I have said repeatedly that I would like to consider myself an agressive all-court player, but the unfortunate reality is that it is my big serving/returning and ground game that allows me to compete at higher levels.

The thing is that the next generation isn't giving up. If at all possible they will find a way to make an attacking game work. Maybe not as much, maybe not in the traditional way, but they are learning to do everything. They may not choose to employ all of the tools in their box, but it is nice to know that the tools are still there.

J
 
I think we are starting to see, I hope, more of an all-court type of game from "some" of the up-and-comers. I've always thought that the next generation of guys are going to have to have an all-court game to take advantage of their power baseline game because everyones gonna have a great power baseline game. Heck, that's true now for the most part (great power baseline game).

It's true that a few of the guys at the tourney in Louisville served and volleyed but the majority are still staying mostly at the baseline. I enjoy watching guys like Young with a nice all-court game.

Oh, and it seemed like most of the guys had full-Lux jobs (from what I could tell), even the guys who served and volleyed
 
Old_Crow said:
Anecdotally, I've been seeing this more here also(PNW). My kids started playing juniors last year so I get a chance to see the top juniors at our club play a lot. Our close friend's son just won the Little Mo Nationals at U11 and even though he is a LITTLE guy, he plays fantastic all-court tennis.

We also have a the #4 U14 boy and the #11 U16 girls as well as a generally strong juniors program and while there is plenty of 10-min moonball baseline rallying, the top players have a much more varied game, girls included.
Click to expand...

I get to work with a good amount of little kids because there are not very many around who hit like I do, so local pros will call me up to hit with their kids so that the kids get a chance to play against the heavy spin.

It is something that I enjoy, but is also difficult for me to challenge the kids, and make it hard for them, but not overwhelm them. I always worry that I am hitting too hard or too much spin for the kids when they get upset.

So from what I am seeing among the little kids, they are building them with an all-court foundation, and letting their strengths emerge, whatever that may be, instead of grooming them to all be bashers.

We have a good mix of old school and modern pros up here, and if you are a tall gangly guy who isn't the greatest mover you are gonna be training hitting lots of serves and volleys because they know your future doesn't lie in hitting more than 3 shots per point.

Not saying it will pan out in the pro ranks, just trying to spread the feeling of the vibe that is going on up here.

J
 
NoBadMojo said:
aha....so you've gone from stating there was lots of serve and volleying going on by various players and some all Lux jobs to one guy who serve and volleyed and one who was playing all Lux..perhaps the same goes for your statement about mids...that does it! i'm going to have to ask you to turn in your journalism creds! ;)
i realize this forum may be like reading the National Enquirer (not that I read it), but you've gone too far! ;O
Click to expand...


Mojo-Nator,

No, I'd stand behind what I said about lots of all court play, including some out and out serve and volley. I think Couch alludes to seeing some of the same from good all DY himself above. ;)

And I placed the emphasis on the all Lux string job found in the frame of the guy who looked so much like Lubicic because he played serve and volley most every point, and there have been earlier discussions about how Lux just can't/doesn't work for serve and volley. On the other hand, I DO think MOST of the players were using hybrid jobs. I'm heading back over there today and I'll grab some of the guys I've met before and ask 'em what string they are using.

As for the mids, they WERE everywhere. In all honesty I too was suprised. ;) Over the last couple of years I've seen far fewer mids than yesterday. The meaning of this fact is of course open to all sorts of interpretation, so please discuss amongst yourselves.

Best,

CC

P.S. Just for the record: the fact that numerous pros were using mid-sized frames and (at least some!) were playing s/v tennis w/ full Luxilon string jobs does NOT mean I personally think YOU should. On this point I agree with Mojo-namely developing players are probably best served by MP's. Eventually, as I age and lose (another?) step (or two?) I too will sucuumb. But that may be much, much later........cause right now I still love my K90. ;)
 
Last edited:
NoBadMojo said:
i'm going to have to ask you to turn in your journalism creds! ;)
i realize this forum may be like reading the National Enquirer (not that I read it), but you've gone too far! ;O
Click to expand...

Oh, forgot to mention........it was The Enquirer where I first learned Fed was trying out some MP's, so it can't be ALL bad. Except for that bleeding ear thing.....that really hurts. ;) CC
 
J011yroger said:
If you aren't 150 in the world you are paying to play. If you are 100 in the world you make about 30 grand a year. Yes, that includes sponsorships endorsements etc. etc.

With Sam Warburg 16th american at 149 in the ATP rankings, it makes me wonder what the 16th highest payed baseball player in the US makes compared to the 16th highest tennis player who turns a profit of $11.42 give or take.

J
Click to expand...

This is absolutely correct and a comment I've often heard made by my best friend who is DI college coach. What does the 149th best NBA player make a year?? ;) Answer: A LOT. Enough that if he manages it well he'll never be teaching at some summer camp in Peoria. Can the same be said for the 149th best tennis player? Unfortunately not. CC
 
J011yroger said:
Hey Craig. I might be able to swing red dirt! I mean, we are both hard court players by trade, but it would be cool to try.

J
Click to expand...

Indoor red clay? How cool is that? Only in the Greatest City in the World, right? ;)

I am SO hoping my doctor clears me to play again by then! Right now I'm hoping for Thanksgiving weekend, so if all goes as planned I will be ready to rock in The Big Apple!!

Best,

CC
 
Craig A. Clark said:
This is absolutely correct and a comment I've often heard made by my best friend who is DI college coach. What does the 149th best NBA player make a year?? ;) Answer: A LOT. Enough that if he manages it well he'll never be teaching at some summer camp in Peoria. Can the same be said for the 149th best tennis player? Unfortunately not. CC
Click to expand...

The thing that gets me is 149 in the WORLD...16 in the USA. So there are what 7-8 guys in the country who can make a living playing tennis?

P.S. the 16th highest payed Baseball player in the country is Mike Hampton at a cool $14.5M

J
 
J011yroger said:
Ya, I dig it. I have said repeatedly that I would like to consider myself an agressive all-court player, but the unfortunate reality is that it is my big serving/returning and ground game that allows me to compete at higher levels. J
Click to expand...

The serve and return of serve are the two most important shots in tennis, PERIOD. This is true at ALL levels, I think.

What I saw yesterday is certainly not necessarily (taken by itself) indicative of anything. BUT, I did see a much more 'aggressive all court mentality' amongst MANY of the players (not all, but many). ;)

CC
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Oh, forgot to mention........it was The Enquirer where I first learned Fed was trying out some MP's, so it can't be ALL bad. Except for that bleeding ear thing.....that really hurts. ;) CC
Click to expand...

ya i figured that was your source....the bleeding ear syndrom will become pandemic on the TW forum when fed changes to a MP sized frame.............;O
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Just Switched From 6.1 Tour Line to Flexpoint Prestige MP
Replies
0
Views
592
djicha
D
big bang
PJ on the classics?
Replies
0
Views
859
big bang
big bang
saram
Head PJ article. And why James switched back to Dunlop.
Replies
38
Views
8K
RacquetCraft
R
BounceHitBounceHit
Observations on the frames of The Stanford Champions' Tour
Replies
24
Views
4K
BounceHitBounceHit
BounceHitBounceHit
Leelord337
I love the ATP challenger tour
Replies
10
Views
2K
bigserving
bigserving
Back
Top