A year later, my serve still sucks.

Znak

Hall of Fame
@Znak ... what @Dragy said ... tilt baby tilt .... definitely learn this before geezer tennis to save that shoulder. 8-B

Edit: I generally don't read the serve threads here because I am not interested in serving baskets of balls to make a change ... not worth the risk at this point. But reading here quite a while back that the arm "more or less in line with shoulders" vs "bending arm up from shoulder line" is the power/safe way made instant sense when I read it. Honestly ... I had never heard than in 40 years of tennis. A quick Google of baseball pitchers, quarterbacks, pro tennis players proves it out pretty quick. Who knew some ttw advice could be correct ... the problem is "which some". 8-B When I looked at my serve after ... not bad on the tilt, could have been better.
Good feedback, will focus on this next! Good to hear from you @ByeByePoly hope you're having a good start to 2020!
 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
Interesting, so my weight should be distributed evenly as I go into the court?

Good point I am rather level. Does putting the ball further into the court help this, or not necessarily just tucking sooner?

I hear ya! That post was from 2 years ago, more recent vids are above, keep the feedback coming.
I see similar issues, what happened is that before trophy position your wrist is bend, try to stay unbend, the easiest way is to extend wrist to offset that (I slightly disagree with the title of the thread but I think this should help address the issue)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
So many things wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

Let me just start with the first couple of sentences.

First, I don't think your post reflects Jolly's mindset since his statement can certainly be true, in fact I agree with it. You can have a good toss and a bad serve. I don't see any conflict with that and my "toss is the boss" mantra either. If you can find a person who is a really good server that has a bad toss, then maybe I will have to rethink my belief that the toss is the most important part of the serve. But I'll have to let Jolly speak as to whether or not he actually agrees with the rest of your comments.

Second, tossing like anything else is easy once you know how to do it. For many people tossing is easy starting out because they developed that kind of skill from a young age. I don't really remember having many problems with it when I started tennis, but I played baseball for many years before I ever picked up a racquet. It's also not one dimensional or linear for most people. I do teach a lot of people to do it that way, but most people migrate away from that over time. I don't know of any pros that have a linear toss.

Third, in my experience serving isn't that hard. Most of the kids I teach have hit at least several if not many quality serves after just a few weeks of lessons. Some within hours. Most of them have trouble with repeatability and precision. That is primarily due to the toss. It takes much longer in my experience for most kids to create a repeatable toss than it does to create a repeatable service motion.

I won't take up to much space with your other points, but I imagine from what I've written so far you could probably draw your own conclusions. In any case if what you're doing is working for you then keep doing it. I'm not one to argue with success and I don't even really like to change less than stellar technique if someone is doing well with it. I like to focus on areas where there is a clear problem and where I think I can make a noticeable difference.

[the underlined part] You come in with a wrong, confusing premise, that's why you position and argue it wrong. It's not "bad toss" that I suggest to counter your mantra. It is that the toss is easy, flexible, and thus not necessarily be "the boss", the most critical part like you make it out to be.

And, how do I explain or show evident that the toss is flexible, very forgiving to support my argument? The existence of 1st and 2nd serves and anything in between where the toss can wildly vary but the serves are still serviceable. No?

Again, I repeat, I doubt that I and many rec players (could) toss the ball consistently to one ideal spot. From what I can tell, the ball goes off more than 1 foot in almost any direction but the serve still works.

All of what I said is quite specific.

Now onto your mantra.. what the heck do you mean by "toss is the boss"? (there are so many different kinds of bosses, it's simply vague and even pointless)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
So many things wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

Let me just start with the first couple of sentences.

First, I don't think your post reflects Jolly's mindset since his statement can certainly be true, in fact I agree with it.

I find this interesting.

No offense to Jolly but somehow Jolly seems to have created enough fame in here that fanboys would readily agree with him even if he was saying the opposite. :)

It's hard for me to put this into words to explain all this.


Kevo,

I think Jolly pretty much suggests the same idea as mine when he said "If your serve sucks it doesn't matter where you toss."

To exaggerate it to make the point easy to understand, if your serve motion sucked, even your IDEAL, PERFECT toss wouldn't matter.

On the other hand, if your serve motion is truly competent, great, then any average toss would likely be ok/acceptable. This much is true.

So, which is more demanding or a limiting factor? Answer is it's not the toss. Hence, one needs to look at the serve motion first and foremost. That's where you're held back.
 

acintya

Legend
hey @Znak - if everything else fails and you really have a lot of free time you can always learn to serve with the left hand - or your non-dominant hand. Why? There are no bad habits engraved,and you start basically with a empty muscle memory.
You can then teach your left hand with the perfect mechanics from the get go. But you will need to put really a lot of repetitons in to breaakthru.
better to have a slower consistent serve than a fast non consistent serve. your power with the left will be singificantly lowe but after years you could probably reach 80% speed of the right.

however to develop a mediocre serve you would probably need to train at least 3x per week for 1 year.
 

Znak

Hall of Fame
hey @Znak - if everything else fails and you really have a lot of free time you can always learn to serve with the left hand - or your non-dominant hand. Why? There are no bad habits engraved,and you start basically with a empty muscle memory.
You can then teach your left hand with the perfect mechanics from the get go. But you will need to put really a lot of repetitons in to breaakthru.
better to have a slower consistent serve than a fast non consistent serve. your power with the left will be singificantly lowe but after years you could probably reach 80% speed of the right.

however to develop a mediocre serve you would probably need to train at least 3x per week for 1 year.
I can't tell if you're trolling me haha!
 

acintya

Legend
I can't tell if you're trolling me haha!
ne trollam te!
i dont troll you!

i have a strong right hand serve but i feel the spin more when i serve left handed = more consistency. a lot of these feel thingys have to do with your brain and you eyes. (eye dominance-brain dominance). there are no left or right handers,there are only certain tasks which are more suited for left or the right hand,but each individual does need to find his own recipe.
 

Kevo

Legend
And, how do I explain or show evident that the toss is flexible, very forgiving to support my argument? The existence of 1st and 2nd serves and anything in between where the toss can wildly vary but the serves are still serviceable. No?

Hit a flat serve with a second serve toss and then maybe I'll have to rethink my argument. The fact that many people can't hit a slice serve or a kick serve without throwing a slice toss or a kick toss is my point. The toss is bossing the serve. It's a control on what serve you can hit.

The toss doesn't have to be perfect. You could have a 1 foot zone or so and still hit serviceable tosses. But in my experience, which I'm happy to be shown the error of my ways, there aren't any good servers that don't have good control of their toss. I'm talking about people who can serve at a high level. Of course you can do all sorts of things and get away with it if you reduce the requirements to a passable 3.5 or 4.0 level serve. I'm talking about people who want to compete in juniors or college or move up to 5.0 rec level. Those people will all have good repeatable tosses. These people can decide to hit a flat serve down the T and they will hit a flat serve down the T 9 out of 10 times. The same for any other serve. Playing doubles at 4.5 level and better when your partner signals for a kick out wide you will be able to hit a kick out wide because you can toss the ball into the right spot for a kick out wide.

I hope that explains it well enough. If I'm wrong please show me a counter example.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Hit a flat serve with a second serve toss and then maybe I'll have to rethink my argument. The fact that many people can't hit a slice serve or a kick serve without throwing a slice toss or a kick toss is my point. The toss is bossing the serve. It's a control on what serve you can hit.


... I'm talking about people who can serve at a high level. Of course you can do all sorts of things and get away with it if you reduce the requirements to a passable 3.5 or 4.0 level serv
Yes i read your first paragraph and immediately figure our discrepancies are probably in the context of level, and sure enough.

Well, a few observations now. Not necessarily debates anymore cuz it's getting very arbitrary now.

1. We are in a board where i believe 4.0 and under are the majority. So in this context, my pt makes sense, applicable.

If everything has to be advance and high like you suggest then everything has to be precise. The toss has to be correct, precise, and so has the swing. We're back to everything being equally important!!! No particular part is the boss. :)

2. In the context of 3.5, 4.0 or even 4.5, a super efficient, good serve is not a requirement for success. (Someone who can't serve jack but retrieve the ball all day can win. Hence,,pushers). There's really no need to have a flat serve with a special, flat serve.

Generally, the way it goes rec players are "allowed" to toss any styles and come up n execute a good serve, if they know their serves. Lol. They won't be punished for it like pros with bad serves.

All this is to suggest, the serve in rec is difficult so its very forgiving.
 

Kevo

Legend
If everything has to be advance and high like you suggest then everything has to be precise. The toss has to be correct, precise, and so has the swing. We're back to everything being equally important!!! No particular part is the boss. :)

I don't think you get what I'm trying to put out there. Forget the level of importance. Yes I believe the toss is the most important part of the serve and I could expound on that, but that's not the main point of toss is the boss. The toss is forcing on the swing of the serve. It will change what serve you get. If you, as a righty, want to hit a kick wide on the ad side but you toss to the right of your body and a bit too far into the court it's just not going to happen. You'll most likely get a slice that travels maybe at the body or towards the T or even worse depending on how you deal with the errant toss. The toss "bosses" the serve. So many people struggle with their serve and they don't hardly consider the toss. They don't practice the toss or even experiment with tossing in different places. They throw the same wrong toss over and over changing this or that part of their swing thinking they will somehow get it right. As a coach I have watched so many people serve so many serves and you can generally predict very easily whether a serve will be good or bad by the toss before someone even swings.

If we are still at odds then I will just have to admit defeat with only the knowledge that I tried to comfort me. :)
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Interesting, so my weight should be distributed evenly as I go into the court?

Your kinetic chain is not firing in sync. You are not maximizing the power that could come from your legs. You are basically "wasting" some of the power from your right leg, since it is firing so early compared to your left leg.

Have you seen any video from a pro who uses platform, that has his right foot entirely off the ground with the left foot flat? I serve pinpoint so not an issue, but when I checked video of a few platform servers I didn't see any who had the same footwork as you. Food for thought...
 

Znak

Hall of Fame
Haven't updated this in awhile — feeling good about the progress but reading back on some of the feedback I dont think I've improved on certain things I could have like shoulder tilt, arm tuck for eg. Anyway still very much a work in progress... baby steps (that seem to take years)

 

chic

Hall of Fame
First impression: this looks so much smoother of a motion and you're hitting through the ball instead of going around on it! Great progress imo. Seems like either you get a little tired or hesitant as games go on. Keep that nice flow even if you don't hit as hard, I don't think you are decelerating, but it looks like you're at risk of doing so to me.

Definitely looks like a nice consistent serve that will 'serve' you well up through at least 4.5. at least based on the 4.5s I've seen and hit with.
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Poorly edited video. You’ve already tossed when each serve starts.
Do not toss the ball until you are moving forward or at least have quit rocking backward. Your tossing arm is straight up and you are still on your heel on front foot. Tossing arm probably shouldn’t be much past horizontal when the front foot toes come down to court. And even after your toes come down, indicating you have moved your weight forward, you somehow move the front foot to the left. This means your weigh must still be mostly on the back foot. Not good. In short, your weight should be going forward when you start your toss.
 
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Znak

Hall of Fame
First impression: this looks so much smoother of a motion and you're hitting through the ball instead of going around on it! Great progress imo. Seems like either you get a little tired or hesitant as games go on. Keep that nice flow even if you don't hit as hard, I don't think you are decelerating, but it looks like you're at risk of doing so to me.

Definitely looks like a nice consistent serve that will 'serve' you well up through at least 4.5. at least based on the 4.5s I've seen and hit with.
yeah definitely do get sluggish as the game goes on and I notice my arm kinda 'locks up'. Good tip I'll keep it in mind, thanks man!
 

Znak

Hall of Fame
Poorly edited video. You’ve already tossed when each serve starts.
Do not toss the ball until you are moving forward or at least have quit rocking backward. Your tossing arm is straight up and you are still on your heel on front foot. Tossing arm probably shouldn’t be much past horizontal when the front foot toes come down to court. And even after your toes come down, indicating you have moved your weight forward, you somehow move the front foot to the left. This means your weigh must still be mostly on the back foot. Not good. In short, your weight should be going forward when you start your toss.
That's fair, I used the swingvision app so it was the default setting, updated the cuts to show more of the toss. I do toss from my back foot.
The motion blur is excessive, video in bright direct sunlight with high speed video to observe the racket moving to impact.
This was unfortunately filmed on a potato, one day when I play during the day I'll film it again.

 

tennis4me

Hall of Fame
Your contact point is too straight up instead of up and in front. I see you springing up, but maybe you can try springing more into the court (so you need to adjust the toss). You also opened up your racquet head too soon, delaying that pronation will add some speed.

I see racquet head speed, but not noticeable acceleration. Imagine you're trying to throw a tennis ball as far as possible ..., that's the kind a swing you want. You'll have this slow take back, then gradual acceleration that peaks when the delayed pronation is finally "released" (snap-like).

There are other things you can tweak to try getting more speed - everyone is different. Try to rotate your right shoulder more (towards the back of the court, just a little more is enough) during the toss - this will give you a little more torque to uncoil.

Work on one thing at a time only and see what works for you.
 
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Znak

Hall of Fame
The road is long, but I'm getting closer to my goal, year by year... practice makes progress as they say. My coach has gotten me to switch to a pinpoint at the beginning of the year, still getting used to it, but definitely feel more comfortable in the pocket.

 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
The road is long, but I'm getting closer to my goal, year by year... practice makes progress as they say. My coach has gotten me to switch to a pinpoint at the beginning of the year, still getting used to it, but definitely feel more comfortable in the pocket.

Everything looks extremely high-level thru trophy position and then it gets a little weird. Leg drive isn’t all it could be.

Can’t get photo hosting to work just yet, but while the racquet is dropping, you are driving hitting shoulder toward contact, and then, after, you drive the hand up to contact. It seems like you believe there is some sort of whip/chain effect you will get, but it doesn’t work that way. Start driving your shoulder with the hand once the racquet is fully dropped.

See how Novak hasn’t used his hitting shoulder to help drive the hand toward the target yet? It does no good to do it before the racquet is on the way to the ball.

 
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Znak

Hall of Fame
Everything looks extremely high-level thru trophy position and then it gets a little weird. Leg drive isn’t all it could be.

Can’t get photo hosting to work just yet, but while the racquet is dropping, you are driving hitting shoulder toward contact, and then, after, you drive the hand up to contact. It seems like you believe there is some sort of whip/chain effect you will get, but it doesn’t work that way. Start driving your shoulder with the hand once the racquet is fully dropped.

See how Novak hasn’t used his hitting shoulder to help drive the hand toward the target yet? It does no good to do it before the racquet is on the way to the ball.


Do you mind elaborating or rephrasing, I'm not sure I follow? Thanks
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Do you mind elaborating or rephrasing, I'm not sure I follow? Thanks
You’ve used any power you would get from your shoulders before the racquet is heading to contact. With the shoulders used up, all you have left to hit with is your arm.
 
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ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
So staying side on longer?
No. Your upper body will turn as a result of your swing path (where your arm goes). Forcing your body to stay side-on longer is a problem as it is the same thing you already do, just the opposite. If you try to stay side on, you will provide an opposing force to your arm. Drive your legs with your upper body in the same orientation as you tossed. When you “leave the ground/are at full drop” just throw your hand at the direction it needs to go to send the ball where you want. Your shoulders will know what to do to accommodate that swing path. They aren’t stupid!
 

Znak

Hall of Fame
No. Your upper body will turn as a result of your swing path (where your arm goes). Forcing your body to stay side-on longer is a problem as it is the same thing you already do, just the opposite. If you try to stay side on, you will provide an opposing force to your arm. Drive your legs with your upper body in the same orientation as you tossed. When you “leave the ground/are at full drop” just throw your hand at the direction it needs to go to send the ball where you want. Your shoulders will know what to do to accommodate that swing path. They aren’t stupid!
I think I'm picking up what you're laying down, so open up more on contact and make sure my drop is timed with when I'm up in the air
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
I think I'm picking up what you're laying down, so open up more on contact and make sure my drop is timed with when I'm up in the air
So we are on the same page, your toes should just break contact with the court when your racquet handle is up and racquet head down (at the bottom of drop). You do this pretty well already.

More importantly, don’t make any effort to use your upper body to rotate. It happens naturally by the direction you swing the racquet. If swinging more parallel to the baseline for a spinnier serve, your upper body won’t be rotating much naturally. If you are hittin a bomb super-flat, your chest may be aiming at the target naturally. The point is don’t worry about it.

See Novak getting in the air with almost no rotation. It is hard to get rotation after you get airborne unless it is done with the arms (see divers and gymnasts). With your arm is how it should be done on the serve as well. In your picture you are forcing that rotation while still pushing on the ground. That is not good.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
It’s a shame that everything looks great but the severe lack of racket drop. As if you have a very limited range of motion in your shoulder external rotation. You badly need @Serve Doc ‘s help! Hope he takes a look at it.
 

Znak

Hall of Fame
It’s a shame that everything looks great but the severe lack of racket drop. As if you have a very limited range of motion in your shoulder external rotation. You badly need @Serve Doc ‘s help! Hope he takes a look at it.
Yeah I separated my shoulder 15 years ago or so. But if I was to take a longer tube for example I can get better drop than in the video, so could be I'm still forcing the motion too much.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Yeah I separated my shoulder 15 years ago or so. But if I was to take a longer tube for example I can get better drop than in the video, so could be I'm still forcing the motion too much.
Can you do a quick video demonstrating your range like this?


 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
You need 240 fps recording and sharp images in direct sunlight to analyze a serve. Otherwise, with the lower frame rate and motion blur you have to imagine where the racket head might have been and not just see where it was.

You can directly record ISR by shadows at the elbow but you need sharp images and a high frame rate. Otherwise ISR is not directly observable in videos. In bright sunlight.
Thiem serve shows elbow area rotating from Internal Shoulder Rotation. I saw some in first minute, there may be more.
To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

Note- Impact is not shown in the frame. But when the back and arm are in line for a slice or flat serve, the racket appears upright at impact from the side camera view. Of course it is not actually vertical because it tilts to the left when viewed from behind. Impact frame = racket appears upright.

Go full screen. Don't notice what the elbow does?

What is your camera's frame rate?

Does your coach have a better camera?

7 years and no video of your ISR!!
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
It’s a shame that everything looks great but the severe lack of racket drop. As if you have a very limited range of motion in your shoulder external rotation. You badly need @Serve Doc ‘s help! Hope he takes a look at it.
Yeah, his racquet drop is extremely shallow. It could be a lack of ROM with his external rotation (ESR). Or it could be that he has mistimed his drop to the extent that he doesn’t have time for a decent drop.

An inadequate or mistimed leg drive could also limit how much ESR / racquet drop he is getting.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The road is long, but I'm getting closer to my goal, year by year... practice makes progress as they say. My coach has gotten me to switch to a pinpoint at the beginning of the year, still getting used to it, but definitely feel more comfortable in the pocket.

If you video in bright sunlight, the camera's automatic exposure control will select a faster shutter speed, your video will have much less motion blur. Many smart phones have high speed video, 240 fps, with very fast shutter speeds.

I purchased an old used Casio Ex-FH100 for $85 a year or two ago. Excellent condition. Shutter speed sets down to 25 microseconds and works fine in bright sunlight at that shutter speed. Check that you can still download the user's manual from Casio Support.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The road is long, but I'm getting closer to my goal, year by year... practice makes progress as they say. My coach has gotten me to switch to a pinpoint at the beginning of the year, still getting used to it, but definitely feel more comfortable in the pocket.

I don't see hardly any frames that are useful for analysis.

On the serve at 23 seconds, how many frames show ISR from ISR start to ball impact?

If anyone used the frames in this video, please give the times and let us know you conclusions.

What was the frame rate?

Between the two red arrows is about the minimum number of frames - 5 or 6, to analyze the quality of ISR, the heart of all high level serves. This is a Toly composite picture made from a 240 fps recording posted earlier in this thread.
The racket face is rotating rapidly. If it were "leading to the ball with the edge of your racket and for sure you should be" That does not seem consistent.

Is this 'leading with the edge'? 'Edge on' to the ball is seen to be a momentary orientation. See lower red arrow.
6E7FE645E567434F9E29811E54D3E639.jpg


Slice serve. Toly composite picture from Fuzzy Yellow Balls video. The full serve video is available. Frank Salazar serving.

Tiny Pic image no longer supported.

High speed videos of the serve taken from above do not show the edge going toward the ball. They show the entire arm rotating from ISR as it also swings forward. The racket is at a rapidly changing angle to the arm.

Unfortunately, high speed videos of tennis serves taken from overhead are rare.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
He should go to the Dr for that.
No, he doesn't need to go to the doc for the simple ROM test Curious suggested. It's extremely simple to perform yourself. You can easily test the ROM of one shoulder compared to the other.

I can readily see that my L shoulder ESR is considerably compromised compared to my R shoulder. (Damage due to volleyball and auto accidents). You can also self-test against resistance -- using a resistance band or with fairly light weights.

If there is a noticeable or suspected issue with ESR, then a consultation with a Dr or PT is warranted. Alternate test:

 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This is what is needed for analysis. These frames from ISR start to impact.
To understand the serve and Internal Shoulder Rotation in videos from start to impact, you need to observe
BDE03643A2A04DE588FB7EE49E554F3F.jpg


F1B3645CA0B443EDBF4C4EF8529B76CE.jpg


360133EA760942C9AECB7086E10EC153.jpg


B0412C400FA24351BE85DB8D5CE4D993.jpg


968B284E561847409B6EF37604C10C3D.jpg

For a slice serve at impact - when viewed by a camera from behind- the arm tilts right and the racket tilts left.


F65CB827E69442A7B56DAF71B8A25E56.jpg


Frames from 240 fps video recording.
These frames were taken with a used Casio EX-FH100 camera.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
No, he doesn't need to go to the doc for the simple ROM test Curious suggested. It's extremely simple to perform yourself. You can easily test the ROM of one shoulder compared to the other.

I can readily see that my L shoulder ESR is considerably compromised compared to my R shoulder. (Damage due to volleyball and auto accidents). You can also self-test against resistance -- using a resistance band or with fairly light weights.

If there is a noticeable or suspected issue with ESR, then a consultation with a Dr or PT is warranted. Alternate test:

For simple ROM for joints there are specific measurement tests that specify the other body angles and conditions and specify the angle where 0 degrees is. For ESR & ISR measurements, the elbow is usually bent and upper arm down the side of the body, as your video.

Curious had a different upper arm orientation, straight out to side, with a bent elbow as in part of the serve. I don't know what test and procedure he had in mind. I guess that he was going to look at the video.

Some other tests might be ESR during the serve or for other purposes, like GIRD. ?

Whiteside mentioned measuring some angle relative to the Sternum and that should be checked. ? That might be what we would want but it involves more than just ESR.

I vote for Drs and well known documented measurement tests for this medical stuff.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
For simple ROM for joints there are specific measurement tests that specify the other body angles and conditions and specify the angle where 0 degrees is. For ESR & ISR measurements, the elbow is usually bent and upper arm down the side of the body, as your video.

Curious had a different upper arm orientation, straight out to side, with a bent elbow as in part of the serve. I don't know what test and procedure he had in mind. I guess that he was going to look at the video.

Some other tests might be ESR during the serve or for other purposes, like GIRD. ?

Whiteside mentioned measuring some angle relative to the Sternum and that should be checked. ? That might be what we would want but it involves more than just ESR.

I vote for Drs and well known documented measurement tests for this medical stuff.
Totally unnecessary complication of a simple ROM test. I can test my ESR in 3 different orientations. It doesn't matter. My L shoulder ESR is obviously impaired when I compare it to my R shoulder in any orientation.

(It is also inferior compared to published normal ESR ranges).
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Once the elbow starts swinging up from trophy position there’s a problem if the hand is also going up. What causes this? That’s the question. I can’t think of anything other than tense shoulder or anatomically restricted rotation.
 
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Znak

Hall of Fame
I think that’s pretty much normal ROM. I might’ve cheated a little adding some thoracic extension. :)
Now it’s more confusing as to why you can’t drop your racket.
You guys might be onto something about mistiming, I might not be getting there quick or effectively
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You guys might be onto something about mistiming, I might not be getting there quick or effectively
Forearm dropping to parallel to the ground seems like the acceptable minimum. Some drop below this like Djokovic, Medvedev. Federer barely gets there, sometimes not. This is mine with just enough drop.

 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Totally unnecessary complication of a simple ROM test. I can test my ESR in 3 different orientations. It doesn't matter. My L shoulder ESR is obviously impaired when I compare it to my R shoulder in any orientation.

(It is also inferior compared to published normal ESR ranges)

I don't know what the OP's shoulder joint issue might be.

I know that there are specified ways to measure joint angles and we can see them in videos. We should stick with those widely known procedures if possible.

I know that there are difficulties in measuring ESR during a tennis serve because parts of the body have different angles and muscles may be stretched and also because Thoracic Extension/Flexion changes particularly the distance between the bone origins and bone insertion of the ISR lat muscle.

I now see that you and Curious might have screening tests that could be very useful for the OP's shoulder injuries.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I don't see any Thoracic Extension in the OP's serve. That might affect the racket drop.
Compare single frame. To single frame on Youtube, stop video, use the period & comma keys.
Go to the OP's serve frames with maximum Thoracic Extension. I don't see TE.

Update - Needs similar camera angles for more accurate comparison.

What is the camera recording rate?

@Digital Atheist - FYI
 
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