Abbreviated scoring and Bitsy Grant Tennis Center, Atlanta, Georgia

[Nacho]

But you KNOW I'm with you on how bogus it is to reduce doubles. That should be 2/3 sets, a point each match.

throwing gas on the fire....Amen to regular doubles

 

[kingcheetah]

throwing gas on the fire....Amen to regular doubles

The d3 rule at least gives it some value, even if it's 8 game pro sets. The d1 rule is terrible.

 

[OrangePower]

I think no ad scoring at all levels would be an interesting experiment-- might return the favor to the server a little bit in tight games.

Actually I think no-ad favors the receiver. In the sense that it makes it a bit easier to break serve.
Think of it this way: The server has the statistically advantage on each point that he is serving. At the ATP level for example, players win about 65% of points on their service. The returner can win some points here and there, but the more points that are needed to win the game, the more points the returner has to string together against the odds, and the harder it gets to break. Whereas fewer points needed makes breaks more achievable.
For example if you take it to the extreme and have a game be exactly one point, then we'd expect there to be many more breaks (about 35% of games would be breaks). At the other extreme, if you needed 10 points to win a game, breaks would be very rare.

 

[Nacho]

Actually I think no-ad favors the receiver. In the sense that it makes it a bit easier to break serve.
Think of it this way: The server has the statistically advantage on each point that he is serving. At the ATP level for example, players win about 65% of points on their service. The returner can win some points here and there, but the more points that are needed to win the game, the more points the returner has to string together against the odds, and the harder it gets to break. Whereas fewer points needed makes breaks more achievable.
For example if you take it to the extreme and have a game be exactly one point, then we'd expect there to be many more breaks (about 35% of games would be breaks). At the other extreme, if you needed 10 points to win a game, breaks would be very rare.

Interesting, I think I agree...Its why there is more parity with No-Ad

 

[jcgatennismom]

I think juniors are going to want scoring and rules to be as close as possible with the pro game-currently is similar. Getting more juniors into the sport is more a matter of recruiting... I'm not seeing much efforts in most high schools or junior high schools to attract the better athletes to tennis. They seem content to take whatever students come their way. In the non-school centers, there are some efforts at recruiting, but there needs to be a change in thinking: maybe reaching out through the Y and through churches like approaches that have such success drawing new athletes to basketball and soccer and swimming.

USTA junior tournaments still play ads unless there is shortened scoring due to rain. For the higher level sectionals (level 1/1A//2) and I think for all the nationals, main draw matches are full 3rd with ads. Backdraw is 10 point tiebreak in lieu of full 3rd set. Now there are midlevel sectional tournaments that finish in 2 days that use 10 tiebreak for main draw matches too. Doubles are 8 game pro sets. The junior format is fairly close to the pro format for now. There are a few junior tournaments that use college scoring like the new Oracle junior series that starts this month. The issue with elite players is the tiebreak vs full 3rd-the better players like full 3rd as the match is a test of endurance and fitness as well as strategy. Sometimes tiebreakers come down to luck.

The biggest turnoff for recruiting younger kids into tennis is unlike any other sports, kids basically referee their own matches. 10 years olds who play a tournament or two and have to deal with some creative line callers decide they don't like the sport. The other turnoff is the cost compared to other sports. Most juniors start playing rec league in their swim/tennis neighborhoods along with soccer-usually just 1-2 hours of group lessons a week, fairly cheap with pro set matches on weekends for the younger ages. When their teams have made it to city final or state playoffs for junior team tennis, some try tournaments. The ones who like tournaments usually switch from taking a few hours a week in the neighborhood to training 2-5x 3+ hours a week at an academy, and the costs skyrocket.

The popularity of tennis as an adult rec sport somewhat limits the growth of junior tennis. We have 8 courts in our neighborhood but my son usually only hits at his academy or at friend's courts. He used to play on a junior challenge ladder as well as play high school tennis and USTA tournaments. However, courts are very hard to reserve on weeknights due to adult practice, and there is a two hour limit. My son goes to school half day so he could play and finish before 6pm, but on the ladder, there were players who didnt get home from school until after 4pm. If they had an hour drive to our courts, my son would have to reserve a court a week in advance. Sometime there would only be 1-2 spots available a week ahead unless he wanted to start a match at 9pm. The players were forced to play tiebreak 3rd to finish within time limits. Theoretically, junior players who wanted to save $ could drill 2 days a week and arrange matchplay the rest of the week. However, those juniors would have difficulty getting courts.

I wish more high school courts were open to the public-esp to juniors. When my son plays out-of-town tournaments, there are often local high school tennis courts players can use for practice. However in our area, most high school courts are locked. I dont think he can even use his own high school courts off season or on weekends.

 

[kingcheetah]

USTA junior tournaments still play ads unless there is shortened scoring due to rain. For the higher level sectionals (level 1/1A//2) and I think for all the nationals, main draw matches are full 3rd with ads. Backdraw is 10 point tiebreak in lieu of full 3rd set. Now there are midlevel sectional tournaments that finish in 2 days that use 10 tiebreak for main draw matches too. Doubles are 8 game pro sets. The junior format is fairly close to the pro format for now. There are a few junior tournaments that use college scoring like the new Oracle junior series that starts this month. The issue with elite players is the tiebreak vs full 3rd-the better players like full 3rd as the match is a test of endurance and fitness as well as strategy. Sometimes tiebreakers come down to luck.

The biggest turnoff for recruiting younger kids into tennis is unlike any other sports, kids basically referee their own matches. 10 years olds who play a tournament or two and have to deal with some creative line callers decide they don't like the sport. The other turnoff is the cost compared to other sports. Most juniors start playing rec league in their swim/tennis neighborhoods along with soccer-usually just 1-2 hours of group lessons a week, fairly cheap with pro set matches on weekends for the younger ages. When their teams have made it to city final or state playoffs for junior team tennis, some try tournaments. The ones who like tournaments usually switch from taking a few hours a week in the neighborhood to training 2-5x 3+ hours a week at an academy, and the costs skyrocket.

The popularity of tennis as an adult rec sport somewhat limits the growth of junior tennis. We have 8 courts in our neighborhood but my son usually only hits at his academy or at friend's courts. He used to play on a junior challenge ladder as well as play high school tennis and USTA tournaments. However, courts are very hard to reserve on weeknights due to adult practice, and there is a two hour limit. My son goes to school half day so he could play and finish before 6pm, but on the ladder, there were players who didnt get home from school until after 4pm. If they had an hour drive to our courts, my son would have to reserve a court a week in advance. Sometime there would only be 1-2 spots available a week ahead unless he wanted to start a match at 9pm. The players were forced to play tiebreak 3rd to finish within time limits. Theoretically, junior players who wanted to save $ could drill 2 days a week and arrange matchplay the rest of the week. However, those juniors would have difficulty getting courts.

I wish more high school courts were open to the public-esp to juniors. When my son plays out-of-town tournaments, there are often local high school tennis courts players can use for practice. However in our area, most high school courts are locked. I dont think he can even use his own high school courts off season or on weekends.

These are the two big issues-- access (both to courts and practice partners/instruction) and the crazies-- spoiled kids usually with hyper aggressive parents that are cheating, usually trying to become d1 stars when they won't make it there. It would be tough to do logistically, but a tougher system on cheaters would be ideal

 

[Nacho]

kids basically referee their own matches

I am on the fence on this topic.....I sense that this has gotten worse over time. I hate saying back in the day, but back in the day there were never ref's at the tournament. You learned to work things out, or the tournament director made the call on something. Most kids were honest, but you had a few that certainly bent the calls. It was few and far between. Now you can't go to an event without 4-5 USTA refs walking around. Seems a little overkill, and I can't decide in my mind if its a good or bad thing? I also always felt the cheaters weeded themselves out. I would be interested to hear if you think its that prolific that its out of control? I guess I always think of tennis as something that is based on honor, and the ref's everywhere open the door to push the boundaries.

cost compared to other sports

I am in full agreement. Its not even the equipment compared to other sports, its the training, lessons, court time, and traveling involved. No other sport outside of maybe Golf (and some other niche sports) has these parameters.

The popularity of tennis as an adult rec sport somewhat limits the growth of junior tennis

Well said! Its not just the court manipulation, but its the attitude. Tennis has the perception as a Recreation sport from the millions of adults who play because of that. Recreation donates carving out time to play rather then being passionate to play, time brings solutions such as abbreviated scoring. It may not be fully prolific in Jr. Tournaments, but it exists and from a young age kids learn it first, and then drop out when its too hard. Then the adults who play for rec reasons insist on it. Hence, it becomes adaptable in the college game. Doesn't seem like a big deal, or like it affects anything because to a rec person it isn't. But for development it should be shunned and other solutions sought

Many issues out there with tennis and why people don't play and the solutions are not all universal

 

[kingcheetah]

Another issue-- the attitudes said rec players hold. I refer to them as the crazy league ladies, but there are men like this too, where they think they are high and mighty, and important, and interrupt the points/ practice of far more serious players to retrieve a ball for them or something similar. An example I saw was a few weeks ago, when there was a thread on here about a ball machine on a public court, and someone said that high level juniors should be training in non-prime times (early morning)-- why MUST that be the case for them, the more serious player? Age shouldn't be what determines any sort of hierarchy of players.

 

[jcgatennismom]

I am on the fence on this topic.....I sense that this has gotten worse over time. I hate saying back in the day, but back in the day there were never ref's at the tournament. You learned to work things out, or the tournament director made the call on something. Most kids were honest, but you had a few that certainly bent the calls. It was few and far between. Now you can't go to an event without 4-5 USTA refs walking around. Seems a little overkill, and I can't decide in my mind if its a good or bad thing? I also always felt the cheaters weeded themselves out. I would be interested to hear if you think its that prolific that its out of control? I guess I always think of tennis as something that is based on honor, and the ref's everywhere open the door to push the boundaries. l

I agree most of the time kids should work it out, but it is a hot topic with junior parents of younger players on other sites. It would be expensive to add all those refs, and some dont pay attention even when they are on court. A different but similar issue is a young kid makes the right call, and then a bossier kid argues with the kid to try to get the kid to change it. Once kids are in the 16s or even 14s, they are not going to let anyone bully them into changing a correct call. When my son has played chaired matches, he sometimes has been too cautious on calls. After one close match, the ref told son afterwards, do you realize that you played 20 out balls? He probably would have won quicker without the ref on court as he would have trusted his own judgment and not played balls that were 6 inches out. All player will make some wrong calls and usually they will even out. Even with the refs in college, they will not overrule a call unless a player challenges. When my son was younger and complained about cheating, I would say afterwards, next time go find a ref, give yourself more margin on your shots, or try another sport. He wanted to play tennis so he mentally got over it. The kids who survive a few years of USTA tournaments usually are mentally stronger and more disciplined though I still see 18 years old bounce racquets and throw shoes.

 

[Nacho]

I agree most of the time kids should work it out, but it is a hot topic with junior parents of younger players on other sites. It would be expensive to add all those refs, and some dont pay attention even when they are on court. A different but similar issue is a young kid makes the right call, and then a bossier kid argues with the kid to try to get the kid to change it. Once kids are in the 16s or even 14s, they are not going to let anyone bully them into changing a correct call. When my son has played chaired matches, he sometimes has been too cautious on calls. After one close match, the ref told son afterwards, do you realize that you played 20 out balls? He probably would have won quicker without the ref on court as he would have trusted his own judgment and not played balls that were 6 inches out. All player will make some wrong calls and usually they will even out. Even with the refs in college, they will not overrule a call unless a player challenges. When my son was younger and complained about cheating, I would say afterwards, next time go find a ref, give yourself more margin on your shots, or try another sport. He wanted to play tennis so he mentally got over it. The kids who survive a few years of USTA tournaments usually are mentally stronger and more disciplined though I still see 18 years old bounce racquets and throw shoes.

The most interesting thing you said was that your son played so many out balls because the ref was standing there....I remember in the 12's or 14's having issues with some kids. Everyone knew who they were, and you just expected a few bad calls. We typically worked it out, but you have to have a think skin quick. I agree some kids will bully their way through. I always appreciate having my dad at the matches, and there were a few times he needed to step in because of other parents mores then the kids. Really sad how it is, but that sort of mental tennis at that age prepares you later on. I have seen 40yr olds act just as stupid in tournaments.

 

[kingcheetah]

The worst story I've heard from kids I train with-- there was a tournament at my club when I was away at college, and some kid was misbehaving on court, dad pulled him from it. Then kid raged in the parking lot and took out a tail light of his dad's big money car with a racquet

 

[kingcheetah]

The most interesting thing you said was that your son played so many out balls because the ref was standing there....I remember in the 12's or 14's having issues with some kids. Everyone knew who they were, and you just expected a few bad calls. We typically worked it out, but you have to have a think skin quick. I agree some kids will bully their way through. I always appreciate having my dad at the matches, and there were a few times he needed to step in because of other parents mores then the kids. Really sad how it is, but that sort of mental tennis at that age prepares you later on. I have seen 40yr olds act just as stupid in tournaments.

Another one that bugs me are the kids that ALWAYS whine even when they are blowing someone out... like one kid at a recent tournament was complaining to his dad the whole time about his grips and shanking a bunch of shots when he won 6-1 6-0. Grow up.

 

[Nacho]

Another one that bugs me are the kids that ALWAYS whine even when they are blowing someone out... like one kid at a recent tournament was complaining to his dad the whole time about his grips and shanking a bunch of shots when he won 6-1 6-0. Grow up.

Sad but I have seen adults do it....its mind games. I thought it was worse in college....I had a doubles match one time were the opponents Assistant coach went behind the fence in the middle of the game, and told the player serving to the deuce side to try to hit me ( I was on the ad side). This was all because I had beaten an up and coming player for them in singles in a tournament and this coach had it out for me. Needless to say there was a lot of pushing and shoving to go along with that move.

I played a Sr. match last year, and the guy I played was hitting Isner like serves. He questioned every single one I called out it was annoying, and it got to my head. I may have missed a call both ways, it was tough. I vowed after that to just not care, and anytime someone is trying to do a stare down or rant and rave I just towel off.....Could care less. I think I have dealt with more of that kind of stuff Sr. level as in Jr's

So it happens all ages, not just a Jr's thing. I think its just tough to have some little brat mouth off, you want to punch him.

 

[kingcheetah]

I had one youngin that decided to make a line call much tighter than any other on a potential lob to send a game to deuce(ITA summer, so D1 rules and I would've had a good shot), which he called out to clinch the set. I didn't say anything but I gave the clear one eyebrow raise, which is the most I'll usually do on a really shaky call. I still gave him advice on college tennis and such post match, so it wasn't really a big deal.

 

[Nacho]

I had one youngin that decided to make a line call much tighter than any other on a potential lob to send a game to deuce(ITA summer, so D1 rules and I would've had a good shot), which he called out to clinch the set. I didn't say anything but I gave the clear one eyebrow raise, which is the most I'll usually do on a really shaky call. I still gave him advice on college tennis and such post match, so it wasn't really a big deal.

It happens...It took awhile for tennis to teach me this, but no one call decides the match...it feels that it does because when it happens it is dishonest, but it is all the things the lead up too it that really are the deciding factors. In the end, I don't loose any sleep over tennis. I love to be out there competing, and I really don't even pay much attention unless its clearly obvious to me. My motivation is to put people away so it doesn't get to that point where the match hinges on it....I laugh at how emotional people get about it, so dumb. We aren't saving lives out there...just play.

I have to keep my emotions in check or I end up getting too wild with my play...just who I am so I know I got to not be so invested in line calls

 

[sureshs]

If tennis doesn't change, pickleball will take over.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/pickleball-forum.570201/

 

[Nacho]

I have missed you @sureshs

If tennis doesn't change, pickleball will take over.

To say I hate pickleball is an understatement....which is why you posted this

I was thinking about it, and to agree with you the issues facing clubs, specifically rec tennis and beginners are formidable ones and certainly thinking of ways to move those matches quickly would benefit the complaints from those groups and some of the issues with involvement. But for Jr. development and the college ranks I will fight to the death Any abbreviated scoring unless the pro tour changes....