ACC tennis

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
At Virginia, we will replace Carl Soderlund with Bar Botzer, who left Wake before the season. One season of NCAA eligibility left before he retires to a cushy tennis pro job or an old folks home.
 
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mikej

Hall of Fame
Who cares, older players help you win, we have 24 year old Johannes on our team who is great doubs guy and next year add 24 year old Matias Simaar as a grad guy, good for Seelig even in year 6 playing his best tennis. Most top teams have veteran players, UNC has 3 guys that are 5 year players in their lineup, probably using around 7 scholarships this year due the "free" Covid rule. Texas won a national title with 4 seniors and 2 juniors. Baylor has 3 grad transfers in their lineup this year, and another grad student in doubles, the average age of their team is 23........age = wins
And we have a true freshman who left HS early in our starting singles and dubs lineup, after recent years with lots of underclassmen playing major roles (Crawford, Riffice, Greif, Bicknell, etc) - we’re not routine abusers of the system of playing 24 yr olds against 18 yr olds (I agree it’s smart / works / etc - I don’t like it - fine with me if you do like the strategy)
 
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At Virginia, we will replace Carl Soderlund with Bar Botzer, who left Wake before the season. One season of NCAA eligibility left before he retires to a cushy tennis pro job or an old folks home.
Bar has two left actually. He turns 29 in the middle of the spring season if he actually uses both.

Don't hate the player; hate the system that allows for this
 

mikej

Hall of Fame
Bar has two left actually. He turns 29 in the middle of the spring season if he actually uses both.

Don't hate the player; hate the system that allows for this
oh agreed, no hard feeling for the players involved in this shenanigans, it’s 100% the system that I dislike
 
wake's season fittingly ends at the hands of 6th year senior Seelig
fittingly since they're poster children for finding ways to put older, more experienced players on their roster
Yeah, I’ve never been in favor of older, usually foreign, players retaining eligibility. At least Seelig is still “only” 23.
 

andfor

Legend
The way it's going, we may have some players finishing their college careers and getting a Medicare card at the same time : 0
It's not that bad anymore. The only way a D1 tennis athlete can be that old and on a roster is to have not competed officially in clubs, leagues or tournaments anywhere after graduating HS. I may be off some on the rule, but the Bar guy has to be super rare nowadays to be that old and on a D1 roster. Most players that age in college are playing D2 or NAIA because the age restrictions are less there and they could not meet the D1 age eligibility rules. The D1 age rules are very tough labyrinth to navigate successfully.

I know a guy who played D1 tennis at a very high level for 3 years. He only got 3 years cause he could not prove to the NCAA the extra 18 months or so he off he took before college he was injured and not playing tennis.
 
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ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Bar Botzer was in the Israeli military, and the years spent after being drafted out of school don't count at reducing NCAA eligibility. A special rule that applies to only a handful of athletes.
 
Standard end of the year collapse by the Heels. With all their talent, extra scholarships and 5 year seniors I would have expected better, watching the match they just don't look very fit. Very Stanford like.
 

mikej

Hall of Fame
Worst season in a long time from the ACC. Almost every team had a worse season this year than their previous few years mean.
duke included? Hard for me to keep track of their rolling average - I think if they beat NC Central it’s a good year nowadays

(fire R S)
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
Worst season in a long time from the ACC. Almost every team had a worse season this year than their previous few years mean.
The SEC and Big 12 played fall intra conference invites and the SEC players played some high level UTR events too in the fall. Look who is in the Elite 8-all SEC/ Big 12 plus one PAC 12 team. If conferences have similar talent, but only two groups played official ITA events in the fall, no wonder those teams ended up in Elite 8 due to more competition and better seeding. At least VA has the excuse of a young team but UNC? Feel sorry for Blumberg-he won his match but the team made a quick exit for his final year. Honestly was Blumberg at his best his freshman year spring '17 11-0 in ACC playing 1 and 2, 26-2 overall for duals? When did he start having the injuries?
 
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mikej

Hall of Fame
Gruskin claiming that big things are happening in Durham for Duke men’s tennis right now. Looks like mikej might get his wish.
the day they fire RS, they should fly in Goffi to dinner at the WaDuke with a contract partially filled out, ask him to write 2.5x his current salary on the salary line, and beg him to sign

it has been nearly a decade of watching a once elite program crumble, get it f’ing right this time, don’t be cheap

(looks like he’s making roughly 165k at SC - honestly use some of that DeJoy money and offer him 225k base + 25k for every round he wins in NCAAs)
 
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The SEC and Big 12 played fall intra conference invites and the SEC players played some high level UTR events too in the fall. Look who is in the Elite 8-all SEC/ Big 12 plus one PAC 12 team. If conferences have similar talent, but only two groups played official ITA events in the fall, no wonder those teams ended up in Elite 8 due to more competition and better seeding. At least VA has the excuse of a young team but UNC? Feel sorry for Blumberg-he won his match but the team made a quick exit for his final year. Honestly was Blumberg at his best his freshman year spring '17 11-0 in ACC playing 1 and 2, 26-2 overall for duals? When did he start having the injuries?
Blumberg was easily his best freshman year, I also can't believe UNC couldn't win either the ACC regular season or tournament titles (so much for the resting for NCAA's strategy). UVa kind of owns them really.
 
Duke and Ramsay reach a deal on a multi-year extension. So the report that something big was happening wasn’t true? Or Duke decided against making a different move? Weird
 
23 year old Jurabek Karimov of Uzbekistan is going to join Wake. A player who has been pro for 6 years and had been suspected of match fixing in the past.
 

mikej

Hall of Fame
23 year old Jurabek Karimov of Uzbekistan is going to join Wake. A player who has been pro for 6 years and had been suspected of match fixing in the past.
pretty standard recruiting for Wake, or Baylor - two programs that are bad for the sport of college tennis - meanwhile UF takes the title with a true freshman who left high school early winning the clinching singles match :)
 
Was he drafted into the military, like the Israelis who are old but still eligible?
Dont think so. He was top junior player (Aussie open runner up) who talked a big game about wanting to be a top atp player. Has played quite a few pro events each season since he was 18.
 

andfor

Legend
So, how does he have any eligibility left?
I'll take some guesses. Probably only has one year of eligibility due to age and that he was competing since H.S. He's entering as a Grad student.

Given he's 23, with Covid rules, that may have helped him slip past the 5 years to complete 4 years of eligibility from time of HS graduation. Also likely had to prove he was in compliance with prize limitations.
 
Seems very similar to what Eric Fomba did at Stanford a couple years ago, finish University at home then come over to do a year or two of grad school......don't see any issue with it actually. Grad school tennis seems like it will be the norm these days.
 
I'm pretty much a newbie to college tennis, but I'm wondering if anyone can explain what's happened to UNC's men's team? They used to be pretty strong, right? I just looked at their roster and it didn't seem all that impressive - when compared with schools I thought were of similar level (TX, FL, etc). Are UNC not a big deal in college tennis? What's happened/happening there?
 

andfor

Legend
I'm pretty much a newbie to college tennis, but I'm wondering if anyone can explain what's happened to UNC's men's team? They used to be pretty strong, right? I just looked at their roster and it didn't seem all that impressive - when compared with schools I thought were of similar level (TX, FL, etc). Are UNC not a big deal in college tennis? What's happened/happening there?
They were 21-4 with regular season wins over Tennessee #4, Baylor #2, and UVA #7, S. Carolina #10 x2. ACC runner up, NCAA sweet 16. Final team ranking #6. Blumberg and Hijikata All Americans. Is this not good?
 
They were 21-4 with regular season wins over Tennessee #4, Baylor #2, and UVA #7, S. Carolina #10 x2. ACC runner up, NCAA sweet 16. Final team ranking #6. Blumberg and Hijikata All Americans. Is this not good?
It's very good... which is why I'm asking about the current team. Their roster for 21-22, is noticeably weaker than commensurate tennis schools. Given their previous success, as you pointed out above, I'd have expected their roster to be of similar strength as schools like FL, UVA & TX.
 

andfor

Legend
It's very good... which is why I'm asking about the current team. Their roster for 21-22, is noticeably weaker than commensurate tennis schools. Given their previous success, as you pointed out above, I'd have expected their roster to be of similar strength as schools like FL, UVA & TX.
For DI tennis 2021-22, I've asserted that rosters won't settle until Jan. 2022. Lot's of transferring with taking place due to the 5th year Covid eligibility rule. I have no insight, but suspect they'll remain top 25 at worst. Still pretty good.
 
For DI tennis 2021-22, I've asserted that rosters won't settle until Jan. 2022. Lot's of transferring with taking place due to the 5th year Covid eligibility rule. I have no insight, but suspect they'll remain top 25 at worst. Still pretty good.
They could be in a world of pain or be very good come January 2022. All comes down to whether or not Rinky and Sigouin come back. If both come back, they are a very good team. If not, going to be tough
 

andfor

Legend
They could be in a world of pain or be very good come January 2022. All comes down to whether or not Rinky and Sigouin come back. If both come back, they are a very good team. If not, going to be tough
The 3rd scenario is player(s) could transfer in. There's a few rosters that have so many players now. Many on those overloaded rosters have players that could start almost anywhere but still not play in the spring. I have to guess there will be at least a handful only stay for the fall semester and transfer out to a program where they will play in the spring. That number may be small so the winners of the transfer lottery in the spring will likely be limited, but a surprise non-the-less.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
The 3rd scenario is player(s) could transfer in. There's a few rosters that have so many players now. Many on those overloaded rosters have players that could start almost anywhere but still not play in the spring. I have to guess there will be at least a handful only stay for the fall semester and transfer out to a program where they will play in the spring. That number may be small so the winners of the transfer lottery in the spring will likely be limited, but a surprise non-the-less.
Are players who practiced with one team in the fall allowed to transfer to another team in the spring and play? For players on rosters for 20/21 who wanted to transfer for 21/22, they had to provide their current school with a written request to enter the NCAA Transfer Portal by July 1, 2021. Not sure how it works for 21/22 freshmen who would seek a midyear transfer. They might need an NIL release too, and I dont know if they would fall under the one-time exemption of transferring and immediately playing in spring if they practiced or competed in fall. Dont you think it is more likely UNC will bring in international students in January to beef up their roster? They also might convince some top '22 US grads to finish their school year early to start in the spring. I think Blumberg was 2017 class year but he graduated early to start at UNC in Jan 2017.
 
The 3rd scenario is player(s) could transfer in. There's a few rosters that have so many players now. Many on those overloaded rosters have players that could start almost anywhere but still not play in the spring. I have to guess there will be at least a handful only stay for the fall semester and transfer out to a program where they will play in the spring. That number may be small so the winners of the transfer lottery in the spring will likely be limited, but a surprise non-the-less.
Are players who practiced with one team in the fall allowed to transfer to another team in the spring and play? For players on rosters for 20/21 who wanted to transfer for 21/22, they had to provide their current school with a written request to enter the NCAA Transfer Portal by July 1, 2021. Not sure how it works for 21/22 freshmen who would seek a midyear transfer. They might need an NIL release too, and I dont know if they would fall under the one-time exemption of transferring and immediately playing in spring if they practiced or competed in fall. Dont you think it is more likely UNC will bring in international students in January to beef up their roster? They also might convince some top '22 US grads to finish their school year early to start in the spring. I think Blumberg was 2017 class year but he graduated early to start at UNC in Jan 2017.
The situation both of you mention is possible, but, by default, the player would not be eligible in the spring. I have heard numerous scenarios where a player who practice (and sometimes play) for one school in the fall and then decide to transfer to another school for the spring have been ruled ineligible to compete during the spring. Because of this precedent, many players who are graduating in December and transferring to play in January will not be training nor competing in college events during the fall.

A 2022 HS senior enrolling early is also likely. However, there are only about 3 or so players, who are uncommitted and able to be recruited, that would help move the needle for UNC. The scholarship math then becomes an issue for UNC. UNC can't give away Rinky's and Sigouin's scholarship money unless the coaches are 100% certain each player will not be coming back. Additionally, each returning student athlete will need to have earned a certain number of credit hours to maintain eligibility. This is to provide some checks that student athletes are working towards graduation. At first glance, this would seem to be not pertinent, but could potentially force players to enroll in the fall, which would squeeze how much scholarship money is available for the year
 

andfor

Legend
Are players who practiced with one team in the fall allowed to transfer to another team in the spring and play? For players on rosters for 20/21 who wanted to transfer for 21/22, they had to provide their current school with a written request to enter the NCAA Transfer Portal by July 1, 2021. Not sure how it works for 21/22 freshmen who would seek a midyear transfer. They might need an NIL release too, and I dont know if they would fall under the one-time exemption of transferring and immediately playing in spring if they practiced or competed in fall. Dont you think it is more likely UNC will bring in international students in January to beef up their roster? They also might convince some top '22 US grads to finish their school year early to start in the spring. I think Blumberg was 2017 class year but he graduated early to start at UNC in Jan 2017.
With all the new rules it would not surprise me if my idea doesn't work. I'm the first to admit I know little on the COVID 5th year rule.

I am a little confused as to why certain programs would overload their rosters and why so many players knowing that would make it their transfer destination. Some of the schools I have in mind (mostly one HAHA, there's others too) have a huge roster. Yeah the private schools could be a good place to continue their education, but 10-12 plus hardcore high-level tennis players on a roster many of which are transfers, doesn't make sense to me.

Oh well, here's to the start of college tennis 21-22.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
I am a little confused as to why certain programs would overload their rosters and why so many players knowing that would make it their transfer destination. Some of the schools I have in mind (mostly one HAHA, there's others too) have a huge roster. Yeah the private schools could be a good place to continue their education, but 10-12 plus hardcore high-level tennis players on a roster many of which are transfers, doesn't make sense to me.

Oh well, here's to the start of college tennis 21-22.
Even with a roster of only 10, many talented players dont play much-they only get their chance when a regular in the lineup is sick or injured. However, with transferring, many players would lose a semester or two of credits as university core gen ed requirements vary greatly so student athletes should make better choices for their initial college (though many who didnt play this year may have played if there had not been a pandemic and 5th year seniors). However, ever prior to pandemic, there were too many benchsitters. For example, compare two players from a strong section-both who had one time had been ranked the #1 USTA player in their section (the top US players tho only play USTA Nat 1s and jr ITFs so sectional #1 is really about the 5th best player in a section because the top 4 are not playing sectionals). One player chose a P5 school usually ranked #10-20. Excluding January exhibition matches with 8 lines, over 3 years that player only played 3 dual matches total not 3 a year- 2 of which were against P5 opponents. The other player choose a midmajor school and averaged 20+ dual matches a year excluding '20. Because his MM scheduled matches vs P5 opponents, he played about 4 P5 matches a year including one year where he played 5 P5 matches and 3 were against top 15 opponents. Just because a player has a P5 offer, doesnt it mean it is the best choice. Plus not all P5s are as good as the better midmajors. Most years Western Michigan would demolish Michigan State. Speaking of Big 10, the midtier schools are a great place for high 4 or 5 star US players to play- we know kids at that level who played even as freshmen. The bottom of the big 10 is weaker than AAC and the top MAC teams. However, that could change: Purdue which is often defeated by MMs has 3 5 star players coming in and Mich State has 2. While that certainly wont make them competitive with SEC or even the top 3 in Big 10, those schools may have a chance to compete for the middle of big 10 and maybe beat the MAC schools in 22.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
They could be in a world of pain or be very good come January 2022. All comes down to whether or not Rinky and Sigouin come back. If both come back, they are a very good team. If not, going to be tough
Outside of Rinky and Simon S, UNC's best international players recently have come from Canada. However, Kentucky seems to have the market on top Canadians now. I do think there could be a lot of talented players who could be waiting for January, esp those from Australia and New Zealand. If they were to play in the fall, they would probably be quarantined most of their winter break if they went home. My son hits some with a guy from New Zealand who hasnt seen family in 18 months+-he just stays and plays in US. Even Ash Barty was talking in Cincy about her team living out of suitcases-they left Australia in March and havent been back. Depending on what happens with pandemic, if cases peak then drop and the countries with strict travel restrictions relax, maybe there will be more talent for UNC to choose from in January.

Also do you think both domestic and international players would choose SEC/Big 12 schools first over the other 3 P5 conferences? Big 12/SEC played in the fall and had much better spring results. Both conferences are in the South with generally weaker restrictions so players can be confident, if they come, they will play. ACC, even though most schools are in the South, they arent as far south and still have more indoor matches. The US freshmen who chose even the weak SEC schools had great opportunities in '21- Stice and Hohmann who played #1 for Auburn and LSU ended up with top 40 ITA rankings-higher than some guys with much higher UTR/ATP, etc ranking from Big 10. Will be interesting to see over the next couple years if the lower SEC schools become very popular with recruits simply because it gives them to chance to play the top dogs. Across the years, the schools that US recruits perceive as their dream schools change. I actually remember when Southern recruits actually wanted to play for Louisville and Clemson... More players should actually look at some of the maligned P5s (if they think coaching situation is improving) because it would be a great experience to be an impact player as a underclassmen to help turn a program around. UNC may have fallen slightly out of favor with the very top guys, eg. jr slam players/jr with ATP points because they have somewhat underperformed plus they are not in the SEC. Also there is only the Cary Challenger for aspiring pros and those WCs could go to Duke, NC State, UNC or Wake. I wonder when the fall pro events will return to college campuses like they were a couple years ago with Illinois and OSU hosting both Futures and Challengers along with other schools. Kentucky has the Lexington Challenger. I know there were some Challenger /Future events close to campuses this past year but nowhere near as many as the past.
 
Also do you think both domestic and international players would choose SEC/Big 12 schools first over the other 3 P5 conferences?
For internationals, I think they choose schools in those conferences because they can get accepted into schools... For players from non-English high schools or non-English countries, TOEFL requirements varies by schools. For example, academically ranked public schools in P5 conferences such as UNC/Michigan/UVA require at least an 80 on the TOEFL to get in to school. For elite private schools like Duke/NW/Stanford, that number jumps to 100+. Whereas for about half of the schools in the SEC/Big12, a 30 or 40 on the TOEFL will get you admitted.

For domestic players, the SEC conference is a draw, especially if you are an elite recruit. The way the ITA rankings work, a line 1 at an SEC is almost guaranteed a top 50 ranking, even only win 30% of your matches. If you win 50%, top 25 ranking. I hear that some recruits nowadays are attempting to solicit guarantees from coaches of a particular spot in the line up, such as line 1 or top 3, as conditions for committing. Combine that with being in great college towns and the SEC looks mighty tempting for many recruits.

For both domestic and internationals AND exclusive to men's tennis, something that is often overlooked is the "12 hour rule". This is a loophole to help circumvent the 4.5 scholarships limit set by NCAA. Women's can't use this loop hole as they are a headcount sport. From my understanding, this exists almost exclusively in the Big12 and SEC public schools. There might be one or two P5 schools in other conferences that have the same advantage.
 
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