active supination before pronation in forehand

[albesca]

Here Tsonga forehands... slow motion from second 0:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReIYkqazc_c

Don't you thing He does a little volountary supination (the butt-cap points ahead) before to pronate and swing forward ?

I do it only by a passive wrist relaxation ... but I seem Tsonga doesn't passive.. seems He does an active, short, supination of the forearm ...

 

[boramiNYC]

It's characteristic of an eastern grip fh. Some people will say it's passive wrist but I believe the whole arm is active almost at the same time (very fast sequence) from shoulder to wrist. For eastern grip there appears to be more wrist movement.

 

[Cheetah]

pointing the butt is more a function of a laid back wrist, not supination. supination will result in the racquet face being pointing down (dog pat position). Tsonga is definitely pointing the butt at the ball in the video you posted.

you can see it better from a different angle here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7YuzLLqG0Q

 

[albesca]

pointing the butt is more a function of a laid back wrist, not supination. supination will result in the racquet face being pointing down (dog pat position). Tsonga is definitely pointing the butt at the ball in the video you posted.

you can see it better from a different angle here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7YuzLLqG0Q

yes, i thing you have right... i see it better from this perspective... it seems more about hand deviation then forearm supination... maybe both movements are involved...

Do you thing he does it by relaxing or as a result of a volountary hand deviation ?

 

[Cheetah]

yes, i thing you have right... i see it better from this perspective... it seems more about hand deviation then forearm supination... maybe both movements are involved...

Do you thing he does it by relaxing or as a result of a volountary hand deviation ?

relaxing. very loose wrist

 

[LeeD]

TRY IT!
If you use active pronation or supination, you will get tired and sore forearms and shoulders.
R E L A X, but grip it tightly enough not to let go.

 

[tricky]

As Cheetah mentioned, it's associated with the "pat the dog" visualization.

You can control the pronation/supination "naturally" (i.e. not having to think about it) with your non-hitting hand. This way you don't think about timing the closing of your racquet face, which breaks the flow of the stroke.

If you supinate the non-hitting hand through some portion of the backswing, the hitting arm will have a "pat the dog" motion. If you pronate the non-hitting hand through the backswing, the hitting arm will lengthen. Many people pronate during the unit turn and beginning of backswing, then supinate for the rest of the backswing. If you pronate through the entire backswing (still very rare to see), it will resemble Federer's motion.

 

[albesca]

Thank to all... understand what you mean with naturally supination/pronation
action .

Relaxing the wrist and the forearm, happens a kind of "raquet head rebounding" from back to front ...

A doubt about the amount of that relaxation yet ...

Are you sure we can use "a very loose wrist" all forehand groundstrokes ?

And, on serve, is it the some ?

thanks

 

[LeeD]

More grip tension on groundies than serves.
YOU toss your serve, it's not moving towards you.

 

[albesca]

More grip tension on groundies than serves.
YOU toss your serve, it's not moving towards you.

so the more the speed of incoming ball... the more the forearm/wrist tension.. the less the raquet head drops back ....

forearm/wrist tension higher on first serve return, lower on serve and very slow balls ... a mid way on groundstrokes..

thanks

 

[LeeD]

Actually, when RETURNING fast serves, it's much better to completely relax as much as you can still stand, and react to it's location. You react much faster when relaxed, and you tend to react wrongly when you tense up.
On slower second serves, most players try an aggressive return, which you need some gripping power to hit in case of mishits. A relaxed grip returning a second serve can lead to a weak return.

 

[Cheetah]

very loose on all strokes excepts volley and returns. returns and volleys should have firmer wrist.

 

[LeeD]

I wonder which stroke requires the firmest grip. My vote goes for the half volley, when you're trying to push it deep to approach net farther in to control the point.

 

[Cheetah]

idk. maybe volley? hmm... yea maybe half-volley?
for me personally its 1st serve return. i think. not sure.

 

[LeeD]

When someone smokes a fast serve within your reach, the last thing you worry about his "get it back deep".
You need to get the racket on the ball, first. Then you need to keep it IN, like short of his baseline. Remember, that ball has momentum, moving faster than anything you normally see, and given lucky solid contact, will bounce off your racket realllllly far.
So it's better to relax and allow your racket weight to hit it back, while you control the part about WHERE to place your rackethead.
Now if it's just moderately fast, then you can do as you want with that serve.

 

[boramiNYC]

More grip tension on groundies than serves.
YOU toss your serve, it's not moving towards you.

I'd say exact opposite of this. It's possible to have a good serve with pretty firm grip but it's more difficult to have good stroke with a firm grip. Loose grip absorbs the shock of incoming ball somewhat and give better control. But, loose grip is better as the serve improves.

 

[Cheetah]

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=75515&postcount=5

 

[Djoker91]

I find myself doing this. When yur technique is right, arm is loose, when yur body turns and arm drags behind, using that kinetic chain of energy. Butt cap naturally turns toward ball

 

[LeeD]

Ah, remember I was one of Bungalo Bill's most hated enemies!
BB has never faced a fast serve. He played good intermediate, maybe 4.0 level tennis at best. 4.0 the old measurement, before the bumpups. Maybe now 4.5. He's mentioned this many times. But, in his defense, he doesn't need to be a good player to TEACH good tennis. And the tennis he teaches, is not to 5.0 level players. He teaches basics.
When faced with a big flat serve, one that's really moving, you need first and foremost....reaction speed. That is relaxed stance, posture, grip. You focus your eyes near the ball, but don't look DIRECTLY at hit. The studies have been done, your perifery (boy, I can't spell)vision, recognises much quicker than your direct vision.
You step FORWARDS when returning big serves, or all serves. That gives your HEAVY racket the momentum needed to counteract the fast incoming ball. No 10 oz rackets facing Roddick's serves.
Just like a motocross start, you DON'T stare at the gate in front of you. You look at it, but you focus your periferal vision at the gate on your strong side next or beyond the next one from you.
Just like night vision, you cannot see what you're staring at. You need to constantly seach the sides of your vision to pick out dim objects that are out of reach of your main vision.

 

[Cheetah]

i didnt know that. i just did a search, saw that post and thought i'd post it here for additional info on gripping.

 

[Cheetah]

You focus your eyes near the ball, but don't look DIRECTLY at hit. The studies have been done, your perifery (boy, I can't spell)vision, recognises much quicker than your direct vision.
Just like a motocross start, you DON'T stare at the gate in front of you. You look at it, but you focus your periferal vision at the gate on your strong side next or beyond the next one from you.

i've never heard this before. do have any additional info or posts or articles on this?

 

[tricky]

Yes -- this is correct. Your peripheral vision is tied into your reflexes. This is usually "trained" via sheer practice.

 

[Cheetah]

Yes -- this is correct. Your peripheral vision is tied into your reflexes. This is usually "trained" via sheer practice.

yes, this i am aware of. i was asking in reference to returning serves. do coaches / pros advocate some method of using peripheral vistion for return of service technique? this i have never heard of or seen anywhere. so i was asking for references so that i could investigate / learn.

 

[tricky]

Good thread on this.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=332205

I put the focus on the chest

 

[Cheetah]

that link is incorrect i think. can you check it?

edit: thank you.

 

[tricky]

that link is incorrect i think. can you check it?

Sorry about that. Fixed

 

[LeeD]

I don't know much about links, or computers, for that matter.
But having gone thru a few "jungle" courses, and tossed out at night with bare essentials a few times, we were taught to rely on indirect sight, or reflex, rather than direct logical thought processes.
Feel is more important than sight when there is no visible light. Your senses come alive, and you can actually "almost", not every instance, feel trees, bushes, other animals, even spider webs, using your leftover senses. But first, you have to block out your main (sight) reference sense.
Sounds weird.
But in the Navy, they teach lookouts to constantly SCAN the horizon, and only zoom in when you think you actually see an anomoly. Almost all of the guys "see" the anomoly out of the corner of their eyes, their direct vision not acute enough to actually pick it out.f
All this nonsense IS applicable to returning a big fast well placed first serve.

 

[bhupaes]

You focus your eyes near the ball, but don't look DIRECTLY at hit. The studies have been done, your perifery (boy, I can't spell)vision, recognises much quicker than your direct vision.

LeeD, if this is true, I don't get how top players are able to tell when a 120+ MPH serve is out by an inch. Is it possible that they make a saccade shift of the eyes to the bounce immediately, and then follow the ball to the contact point? It does slow down considerably after the bounce, by all accounts. This makes more sense to me because one needs to see what the ball does after the bounce, in addition to whether it was a fault or not.

 

[LeeD]

You get used to what you practice against. It still is tough, but it's not out of this worldly tough.
"Top" players face 130 mph serve all the time. Even the women's pros practice against college level guys, 5.5's, so they see the "big" serve all the time.
As a top level 3.5, or C player, I'd already faced GilHowards 125mph A serve, RichWilliams''s B forcing lefty slice, LowellBarnhardt's 129 top/slice, RollieZalameda's 60mph 6'6" kicking lefty twists. They just expand your horizons.
And yes, your eyes have to track the ball as it approaches you. You don't stay sighted on the server, or you'd see his followthru, which none of us has seen.

 

[albesca]

Actually, when RETURNING fast serves, it's much better to completely relax as much as you can still stand, and react to it's location. You react much faster when relaxed, and you tend to react wrongly when you tense up.
On slower second serves, most players try an aggressive return, which you need some gripping power to hit in case of mishits. A relaxed grip returning a second serve can lead to a weak return.

Leed, if i've understood what you mean, the amount of relaxation depends from how much time we have to load the shot ... but, if we have time , ex. a weak opponent shot, a counted tension in wrist/forearm is better than keep it totally loose.

more relaxed = fast reaction
less relaxed (but not tigth) = better control

So, the ideally tension management would be to combine both level of relaxation using a total relaxed forearm/wrist until the raquet cap points ahead (pronat/supinat) and after, as the raquet face moves toward the contact (again pronation), add some counted tension to gain control ....

Thanks