uscwang
Hall of Fame
Exactly. Sampras and the Big 3 all achieved more, a lot more, that Borg did in 8 years. The myth that Borg won his GS in shorter period of time is debunked.
Adriano Panatta says : "Roger is still the GOAT despite Novak's 23 slams ..."
- Thread starter Razer
- Start date
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
This has nice ring to it. I would like to think Alcaraz will be the future GOAT. Since it's probably 15 years in future, no point speculating.
Borg 11 slams
Sampras 14
Novak 23
Future GOAT probably will need 30 or something.
But I will tell one thing. Someone on TC or parallel account said in 2018 that Novak is an animal. Fedal can't stop him. The player to stop him isn't arrived yet. It would probably be the player who hit 100 mph consistent forehand. Completely different ballgame.
To me, Alcaraz is that guy. I believe he will take the throne from Nole in future.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Alcaraz is young and so he will stop Novak, not because of any forehand power. If Fedal were young then they would have thrashed Alcaraz a lot, but they are both finished, so they cannot. Djokovic is still getting wins because he is not finished and Alcaraz is raw.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
This seemed more like a message to Alcaraz - who has made "Cabeza, Corazón y Cojones" (Head, Heart, and Balls) his personal motto.
At the time, Djokovic regained the #1 ranking from Alcaraz with this win
Carlos Alcaraz se tatúa las 'Tres C' (Cabeza, Corazón y Co...)
Como es natural, en el año de la explosión de Carlos Alcaraz el centro de interés sobre el tenista de El Palmar no ha residido solamente en su desempeño sobra la pista, sino tambié
www.marca.com
daggerman
Hall of Fame
How is it definitive that he hasn't been the greatest player since 2008, but not definitive that he has been the greatest player since 2012?
You think there's a case that somebody has been greater since 2012?
daddy
Legend
Winners or Errors
Legend
You misread. He's clearly been the greatest player in the world since 2012. In 2011, he was the best player, but 2012 saw a resurgence of both Fed and Nadal. Since the beginning of 2013, easily the best player other than that brief period when he was in La La Land.
I am sure Novak is not losing any sleep because of what Panetta thinks of him. It is fair for Panetta to say he prefers Roger's game or Nadal's personality but in very poor taste to trash another great player you do not really know, especially if you are a former great player yourself.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Agreed.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Pete was being diplomatic and not telling the truth
Tennfan123
Legend
Nolefam do not like different opinions.
Panetta has a good idea bout tennis. He's earned his opinion.
Panetta has a good idea bout tennis. He's earned his opinion.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
It is the opposite, Pete was being diplomatic when he said Roger is best in 2009 because the record was broken and he did not want to sound sour.
Remember that in 2006 Pete did say his generation had Becker, Edberg, Agassi, Ivanisevic, Courier all as his rivals while Roger doesn't have rivals. If he respected Roger's dominance in peak years then he would not have said this in 2006 at the heart of Roger's peak..... Fact that he said this in 2006 proves he doesn't rate roger very high
However later in 2012 or so Pete did say (it is on video) that Rafa could also catch up later on and he did say Roger will have to beat his rivals even though he has the record.
Now comes the Nole praise part, he said Nole's 2011 is the most dominant year in Tennis he witnessed, he rated it the absolute best.... and remember he has seen 2006, 2004, 2007, he still named 2011.... that means something.... Nole was a true third wheel at that time, he was only some 4 slams and see Pete said this.... this is the first proof of genuine admiration !
Second.... Pete praised Novak in 2021 when all 3 were on 20-20-20 .... He said Novak is the GOAT .... then we've seen that ATP Finals video call between Pete, Nole and Tim Henman where Pete praises Nole's 6 year end 1s and also says he would like Nole's return and his speed to be added to his game, if he could choose 2 attributes.... this is again high praise from Pete @metsman ... What would Pete choose from Federer ? Forehand? Pete has his own forehand... serve? return? ... Pete doesn't rate Roger that high, he actually rates Nole higher because Nole has skillsets which are diverse from Pete and it is those skillsets which have proven to be aces in this era.... The return, the backhand, the speed, flexibility
So Pete does respect Novak more than Roger....
esvc
Semi-Pro
Djokovic doesn't say he's the best, he's not as petty as Panatta:
Djokovic cements status in GOAT debate after scaling men's Grand Slam peak
PARIS : If the debate about the best-ever man to wield a tennis racket came down to statistics alone, Novak Djokovic's status as the GOAT (Greatest Of All Time) would already be decided after he clinched a 23rd Grand Slam title at the French Open on Sunday. The Serb beat Casper Ruud 7-6(1) 6-3...
"I don't want to say that I'm the greatest," Djokovic told reporters.
"It's disrespectful towards great champions in other eras. Each great champion of his generation has left a huge mark and paved the way.
"I leave these discussions to someone else."
TheNachoMan
Legend
lol
Technology Ruined Tennis
Hall of Fame
Some loser on TTW gives their opinion - response "you're just some losing posting on TTW, what do you know about pro tennis?"
GS champ gives their opinion - response 'he's some anti-Serbian loser who played 50 years ago, what does he know?"
Sound logic.
GS champ gives their opinion - response 'he's some anti-Serbian loser who played 50 years ago, what does he know?"
Sound logic.
This seemed more like a message to Alcaraz - who has made "Cabeza, Corazón y Cojones" (Head, Heart, and Balls) his personal motto.
At the time, Djokovic regained the #1 ranking from Alcaraz with this win
Carlos Alcaraz se tatúa las 'Tres C' (Cabeza, Corazón y Co...)
Como es natural, en el año de la explosión de Carlos Alcaraz el centro de interés sobre el tenista de El Palmar no ha residido solamente en su desempeño sobra la pista, sino tambié
That tweet didn't age well. Tiny left his cojones in the hotel room.
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
Is he sponsored by Lindt?Panatta, who himself won the French Open in 1976, expressed his belief that Federer’s greatness extends beyond mere statistics and aesthetics. He emphasized that tennis is a dynamic sport, constantly evolving with changes in equipment, court surfaces, playing styles, and other factors. Panatta is the only player who defeated Björn Borg at Roland Garros and he did it twice.
In an interview by Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera, reported by MSN, Panatta said, “Nothing changes for me: Roger Federer is the greatest. It’s not just a question of aesthetics”. He further asserted, ” And not even of statistics, which they like so much but leave the time they find.”“Let me explain better: Borg in the few years he has played concentrated more Grand Slam victories than Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer combined,” Panatta points out. He suggests that instead of crowning a single player as the GOAT, each tennis great should be celebrated for dominating their respective historical periods. Panatta argues that comparisons between eras do not hold much significance either.
During the same interview, Panatta further emphasizes the futility of trying to determine a singular GOAT in tennis. “They are all great,” he states. “There is no greatest.” He highlights the sport’s constant evolution, where changes in rackets, courts, balls, and playing styles make direct comparisons challenging.
via Reuters
“Djokovic says he’s the best? I propose that we deal with it,” Panatta challenged. By encouraging a focus on appreciating and respecting the achievements of all tennis greats, Panatta aims to move beyond the fruitless GOAT debate and promote a deeper understanding of the sport’s evolution.
‘Nothing Changes for Me’ - Despite Novak Djokovic’s Historic Feat, Italian Tennis Legend Sings Roger Federer’s Praises as He Refuses to Put the G.O.A.T Debate to Rest - EssentiallySports
Tennis legend Adriano Panatta asserts that Roger Federer is the GOAT, despite Novak Djokovic's 23 Slams, as he argues the nature of the sport.www.essentiallysports.com
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
Anybody can say anything. Isn't the best argument for Djokovic (who I'm really no fan of) over Fed at this point is that they actually DID play in the same general era of the sport (even if they didn't overlap exactly) and thus are subject to the same metrics of greatness. This isn't an instance where the players are from drastically different generations and standards were different - like when people would blow off the AO and sometimes Roland Garros, or when defined Masters did not exist as such, Olympic tennis didn't exist, or the WTC did exist and was prestigious, etc. We're not even talking about Nadal, who Novak has eclipsed by 1 Slam at this point, but Fed who he's eclipsed by three Slams, including three times the French Opens. Yes, of course, there's the argument that "there's more than Slams," and that's true. But Slams are still massively important. Plus Novak leads in some other major metrics as well. I said the other day, I'm not a person who is enthusiastic about calling Novak the GOAT, but I can't really deny that he is.
Last edited:
BlueB
Legend
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Pete deep down knows Fed is the best (or that he's the best), trust me bro.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Sure bro
Razer
G.O.A.T.
I think emergence of Djokovic shifted the narrative from H2H. Some guys like Cash/Wilander did question Roger but other than that the narrative shifted towards who ends with most slams. Plus Roger also made a strong comeback vs Nadal and redeemed himself, the H2H narrative died down for good, it became who can end with more slams, Roger had the edge with 20 but today the top number is 23, so time for Roger fans to gracefully accept that. Roger despite less slams and less H2H than Nadal had non clay based arguments but with Novak even that doesn't exist, so Roger fans should gracefully accept that. No shame in that.
He probably means "Borg, as an example, won two Majors in 1978, while Djokovic, Nadal and Federer won 0 Majors that year, combined"?"There is no greatest" and "Roger Federer is the greatest" in the same interview.
And what on earth is the meaning of this: "Borg in the few years he has played concentrated more Grand Slam victories than Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer combined" ?
initialize
Hall of Fame
I mean, this Italian guy is right. And lol at all the butthurt Nole fans.
When you have countless people still calling Federer the GOAT, you at least know there's some validity to the "eye test" over asterisked numbers alone.
Seeing is believing, and your vision doesn't lie to you most of the time
When you have countless people still calling Federer the GOAT, you at least know there's some validity to the "eye test" over asterisked numbers alone.
Seeing is believing, and your vision doesn't lie to you most of the time
Federer GOAT, but both Djokovic and Nadal are greater than him. Epic Fed fanatics.
initialize
Hall of Fame
Explain how an any shape or form Nadal is greater than Fed, lmao
Peak Nadal > Peak Fed, plus 22>20. Good enough for you?
initialize
Hall of Fame
It would be if your statement had any validity outside of clay
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
How is he "right", when he can't even make a coherent argument?
He first claims Federer is the greatest and then goes on to say "there is no greatest"? And to make it worse, he claims "Borg in the few years he has played concentrated more Grand Slam victories than Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer combined" which is just factually wrong
Sounds like the guy has dementia
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
And of course there are also these other comments by Panatta that make it clear this is coming from his personal dislike of Djokovic rather than any objective analysis
Adriano Panatta claims Novak Djokovic faked injury at the Australian Open to trick players
Adriano Panatta, the Italian tennis legend and winner of the 1976 French Open, has launched a scathing attack on Novak Djokovic after his 2023 Australianfirstsportz.com
Adriano Panatta: "Novak Djokovic is really unpleasant"
During the show: Un Giorno da Pecora, broadcast on Italian Radio Rai Uno, the legend of Italian tennis Adriano Panatta talked about many issues, in particular commenting on his thoughts on the Big Threewww.financial-world.org
I'm not biased, no. I promise you I'm not.This guy's opinion is worth about as much as any troll on the internet.
That just proves that the it was never about the slams numbers. He's was the greatest all around tennis player than any other, according to past GOATS, and well before he was even close to breaking Pete's slam record. ]
Hell, he could even hit a rather nice overhead smash.
It's the media and people here who blew the GOAT argument out of proportion. I always found the GOAT bit insulting to other players, and I'm a Fed fan.
ScottleeSV
Hall of Fame
Panetta is entitled to his belief/opinion. It's hardly worth getting wound up over.
I also remember that he was hailed as GOAT quite early, but I never understood it in a way that it was mainly just about the style. IMO it was the anticipation that WITH that style he would smash all the records in the future. I mean in a sense that he certainly WILL statistically become GOAT in the future, and because it's so certain, he already IS the GOAT right now. So the consensus back then was "we are witnessing the GOAT on his way".
Because it's certain that someone cannot have all the records at an age of 23 or 25 already, but in hindsight someone usually already has to be on GOAT LEVEL then, in order to have the numbers later. That's how it was meant I guess.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Exactly, it's pretty much the dreaded eye test.
Nobody gets any strong impressions when watching Next Gen for example.
Yes, but he needed 2004 first. He needed to show that this style could be effective in terms of numbers. He needed those 3 Slams and he needed the demolition of Hewitt at the US Open. Then people could quite easily predict he wouldn't just stop dominating in the next few years. I don't think anyone predicted him becoming GOAT simply on an "eye test" even before his achievements of 2004.
Many certainly saw the talent before, but it's interesting that he was already seen as a choker when it matters most (and many early Slam losses after good results before seemed to prove it). Then he totally dominated with his game alone, so that he couldn't even choke anymore, because he barely got nervous. And then when the challenges got harder again, he sometimes couldn't handle the pressure again.
It's a pity, because I still think that with the same mental strength as Djokovic he would still have the numbers on his side, at least for now. But it is what it is, and mental strength is part of the game.
A lot of people shared the same view as Panatta. Djokovic has a history of playing possum during the match, especially when he's losing. Real injury doesn't make you play better and moves faster after MTO. Too many incidents in the past has happened and Djokovic managed to beat his opponents who got sold in on his non-injury. It's natural that people will see it as a tactic to gain an advantage.
A critical element of Djokovic's game is his gamesmanship
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Oh come on. You're just another Djokovic apologist. We have seen it too often, Djokovic citing injury but end up winning in a convincing fashion after MTO, bathroom break or simply playing possum on court. Even the players themselves(e.g. Busta) have open up about Djokovic's gamesmanship.
Carreno Busta accuses Djokovic of feigning injury concerns
Spaniard Pablo Carreno Busta accused Novak Djokovic of gamesmanship during their French Open quarter-final on Wednesday as he felt the world number one Serb did not have any genuine health issues despite appearing to battle injury problems.
www.reuters.com
It's the reason why he never won a single ATP Sportsmanship award
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Dude, you claimed gamesmanship is a "critical element" of Djokovic's gameOh come on. You're just another Djokovic apologist. We have seen it too often, Djokovic citing injury but end up winning in a convincing fashion after MTO, bathroom break or simply playing possum on court. Even the players themselves(e.g. Busta) have open up about Djokovic's gamesmanship.
Carreno Busta accuses Djokovic of feigning injury concerns
Spaniard Pablo Carreno Busta accused Novak Djokovic of gamesmanship during their French Open quarter-final on Wednesday as he felt the world number one Serb did not have any genuine health issues despite appearing to battle injury problems.
It's the reason why he never won a single ATP Sportsmanship award
That's just laughable to anyone who's not a Djokovic hater
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Also a Fedfan. I remember it feeling like a real slap in the face when Andre said in that interview with Marc Lamont where he said that if he was Rafa and sitting at a table with Fed and Fed said he was the best, he'd ask "why did I beat you twice as many times as you beat me?". Now looking back I have to admit my gratitude for folks like Andre who helped gradually clean the rose tint off my glasses so that over time I could accept the reality that despite being rather thoroughly surpassed by his rivals, Roger will always be in the all time great category. If not for pros and experts like Andre, McEnroe, Wilander, Sampras etc backing the facts, I might belong to the "He's either GOAT or nope!" category of "fans".
Btw, Roger has an excellent overhead smash.
Similar threads
