advice on my kick serve

[mhd]

Anything wrong in my action so that no enough spins on my kick serve? Thanks in advance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwMviSqtU1Q

 

[jdubbs]

Anything wrong in my action so that no enough spins on my kick serve? Thanks in advance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwMviSqtU1Q

Toss more behind you

 

[Mazilla2219]

This video seems to show more of a slice serve than a kick serve.

Take this advice with a grain of salt but here are the following things that you could improve upon from the video:

- The toss is further away from the body, almost to the side - you want the ball to theoretically land on your head or behind your head

- Your finish should be on the same side of your body (right side for you) rather than across your body

 

[Chas Tennis]

How was this processed?

What was the recording frame rate?

What post-processing was done on Youtube? Slow down 4X or 8X?

There are strange things being done. Maybe you recorded 30 fps interlaced and the Youtube is processing so that your arm disappeared. ??

Recommend high speed video for the serve.

 

[dct693]

That looks like a 1st serve to me. Your body is not sideways enough. Your shoulders are facing the net at contact. Your swing path is towards the net, not to the side. Your toss is in front and appears to be out to the right (like for a slice serve). Your racquet drop is a bit too shallow and there's no ulnar deviation. Your contact point is too far out in front.

 

[WildVolley]

That looks like a 1st serve to me. Your body is not sideways enough. Your shoulders are facing the net at contact. Your swing path is towards the net, not to the side. Your toss is in front and appears to be out to the right (like for a slice serve). Your racquet drop is a bit too shallow and there's no ulnar deviation. Your contact point is too far out in front.

Totally agree with the above.

You should really try to find the feeltennis guy's kick serve progression. He has a number of drills which will help you develop the right form and get a feel about how to hit topspin on your serve.

Though it may be the video quality, I didn't see any part of the racket face rising at contact with the ball. If you aren't going low-to-high at contact, you aren't going to be hitting any topspin.

 

[mhd]

Totally agree with the above.

You should really try to find the feeltennis guy's kick serve progression. He has a number of drills which will help you develop the right form and get a feel about how to hit topspin on your serve.

Though it may be the video quality, I didn't see any part of the racket face rising at contact with the ball. If you aren't going low-to-high at contact, you aren't going to be hitting any topspin.

thanks, let me take a look into feeltennis instruction.

 

[WildVolley]

thanks, let me take a look into feeltennis instruction.

I think this is the first video of the progression that I remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRaONZgUg-k

Good luck and keep practicing.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Regarding how you are facing for the serve in the video -

Here is an overhead view of the serve types, a composite picture made by Toly from a rare Fuzzy Yellow Ball overhead video.

...................................................................

Here are FYB Frank Salazar different serves. ............................................

See the Frank Salazar Fuzzy Yellow Ball overhead videos also.

Notice that the shoulder-to-shoulder line & chest for the kick serve faces more to the right than it does for the slice or flat serve. The ball is also impact more over the head. The head in a high level serve moves forward to impact. So that the ball is not tossed over the head but tossed to where the head will be when the ball is impacted.

I don't know how much variation exists among servers because overhead videos are very hard to find.

The high level serve is based on an internal shoulder serve where to develop racket head speed not only does the arm swing forward but it alsorotates extremely rapidly.

The majority of poster with serve videos use a lesser serving technique called a Waiter's Tray. To see if the high level serve is being used the racket has to be seen. Your video, with whatever processing was used, is one of the worst that I've seen for analysis. You can't see the racket and the effect of the post processing is not known.

 

[dct693]

Think of any topspin serve (kick is a variation of the topspin serve) like you would a topspin forehand. You must strike the ball from a contact point lower than the ball with a racket path such that the racket ends up higher than the ball. To get that type of racket movement on a serve, the ball needs to be closer to the left side of your head (as opposed to further into the court). That position of the toss, along with your body positioned more sideways at contact, allows you to swing from left to right (assuming you're right-handed) and brush the back of the ball properly to create that topspin.

If you hit a serve and you're wondering if you got enough topspin on it, the likely answer is NO. When you hit a really good topspin serve you will see the ball DIVE down into the court like it's being pulled down by a magnet. The steeper trajectory of the ball into the court, combined with you aiming the ball higher over the net will give you the ball path required to get it to kick up after it hits the court.

At first, try to go for tons of spin and very little pace. You want to ensure you create that "psssssss" sound when your racket hits the ball with a glancing blow. You don't want the typically "whack" sound of a solid racket to ball contact.

 

[dct693]

One more thing: you can't contact the ball at it's highest point (as is advised for the flat or slice serve). To get the "low to high" your racket needs to be able to end up higher than when it contacted the ball (as with a topspin forehand).

The overhead shots that Chas Tennis posted are great for showing the differing racket paths. You can't tell from those shots, but for the kick, the contact point is slightly lower than for the other serves.

 

[mhd]

What was the recording frame rate?

What post-processing was done on Youtube? Slow down 4X or 8X?

There are strange things being done. Maybe you recorded 30 fps interlaced and the Youtube is processing so that your arm disappeared. ??

Recommend high speed video for the serve.

The video was recorded with IPhone slow motion. However, when I uploaded it to youtube, it seems lose the slow motion and blurred by youtube's processing.

 

[mhd]

Regarding how you are facing for the serve in the video -

Here is an overhead view of the serve types, a composite picture made by Toly from a rare Fuzzy Yellow Ball overhead video.


The majority of poster with serve videos use a lesser serving technique called a Waiter's Tray. To see if the high level serve is being used the racket has to be seen. Your video, with whatever processing was used, is one of the worst that I've seen for analysis. You can't see the racket and the effect of the post processing is not known.

Thanks Chas. Here is the original video sequence https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5vbysdq6ktmn9j/IMG_3129.MOV?dl=0 Please let me know whether you can mining more information on my actions.

 

[Chas Tennis]

That's a lot better!

Here is the position of the serve where the edge-on to the ball orientation of the racket should appear.

This position of a high level serve is called the 'big L' by some, an inverted 'L' representing the angle between the arm and racket. Compare how his racket is edge-on to the ball before going up to meet the ball. Yours is not edge-on probably indicating that you are not rotating your arm for racket head speed.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/nalbandian_l.

Your serve looks to be the Waiter's Tray as the majority of posters seem to have. Check also your grip as often it is toward the eastern forehand for a Waiter's Tray.

In a high level serve, the entire near-straight arm will rotate as is swings and that brings the racket face to turn to face-on to the ball for impact. That rotation is powered by the joint motion called internal shoulder rotation, a rotation of the upper arm at the shoulder joint. The muscles must be pre-stretched or 'loaded' to do ISR.

17 milliseconds before impact. Federer has stretched his ISR muscles using the various phases of the kinetic chain. Here he lets these muscles rapidly shorten, rotating his entire arm to accelerate the racket to just before impact. Probably about 70° arm rotation in 4 frames at 240 fps, the internal shoulder rotation rate is about 2800°/sec. Muscle shortening using pre-stretch is 'passive' and probably does not give the feeling of much effort. Impact was on the next frame, not shown.

The rapid wrist flexion may be a result of the ISR or earlier elbow extension and not wrist flexor muscles. ?

The racket 'edge-on' to the ball to the racket strings on the ball results mostly from the ISR turning the racket face as shown in these frames.

On the last frame just before impact, the angle between the forearm and racket is about 40° as viewed. (Probably a kick or slice serve.)

The angle between his shoulders and the upper arm is 145° (arm 35° up from shoulder line extended) as viewed in this frame. That is a little more than most, 10-20°(?) up. See Ellenbecker video on the shoulder, serve and orientation to avoid impingement.

This is what determines the pace and quality of the serve. How can you see it without high speed video?

A particular shoulder orientation is recommended for the serve in a video by Todd Ellenbecker to minimize the risk of shoulder impingement injury. Look at pictures and videos of high level servers and you will see that they use the shoulder orientation recommended. Google: tennis serve impact pictures

I believe that serving with ISR is never forced and could cause injury if practiced incorrectly. Here are some known issues. With forceful and rapid ISR the small external shoulder rotator cuff muscles have to be conditioned to keep the ball of the humerus in place and to stop the arm rotation in the follow through. See recommended shoulder conditioning exercises. Easy, light exercises.

There are also the important safety issues related to technique such as the shoulder high orientation for the serve to minimize impingement risk. Just one very bad motion can cause injury.

1) Jim McLennan short video on the rotator cuff, impingement and serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s

2) Todd Ellenbecker video on shoulder anatomy, impingement, and serving. At about minute 8 he describes the same issue as McLennan but in more detail.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=lo

If you are concerned because you are having pain, how can you determine that the technique that you use is OK? You have to study and know the proper technique and verify that you are doing it with high speed video or find a well qualified instructor. Keep in mind that the more rapid motions during the serve cannot be seen by eye or even 60 fps video so an instructor who uses HSV is a plus.

Search some of these terms on the forum: dougherty Waiter's Tray hammer
camera behind Chas Tennis
kick serve

 

[Shroud]

Anything wrong in my action so that no enough spins on my kick serve? Thanks in advance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwMviSqtU1Q

I would start with the toss. Its too high. You want to hit the serve when the ball is just starting to fall, not when it has fallen 2 ft.

Here is a vid where you can see the ball toss height. Most vids just show contact, not falling height.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnqYduBcmNQ

And yes more to your left. here is another vid that has some good tips and IMHO is your big problem on this serve based on the video. Watch what he discusses about the elbow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs-Zbi1n8VA

 

[LeeD]

Also, there's very litte pronation going on in the followthru. Your right thumb should be facing straight down, but it's facing off to your left, meaning you didn't twist the forearm into the ball.