Advice on stringing a Wilson 6.2 on an Ektelon Model D

#1
Hello all. First time user to this forum. I was given an old Ektelon Model D many years ago and I use it to string a Wilson 6.2 Stretch 95. I've been using Ashaway Crossfire 17G hybrid strings. Due to the age of the stringing machine, the mains pose somewhat of a challenge in that the clamps do not reach the bottom of the racquet. So, I have some questions that I would be very grateful to have answered:
1. I typically start by pulling the two center mains at the same time. Mains start at the bottom so I'm pulling tension from the top. The pull is absolutely straight, no turns. When I do this, I'm getting 60 pounds on BOTH strings, correct?
2. Because of the gap between the clamps and the bottom of the frame when the clamps are at the bottom of the base, I typically pull two strings at the same time so that I'm pulling from the top versus the bottom. It's a much cleaner, more direct pull than dealing with the angle and frame at the bottom. When I tension both strings at the same time, I can visibly see that the string is sliding over the grommet at the throat and that both strings are being tensioned. I understand that there will be some loss of tension at the 180 degree frame turn, but it seems to me that whether I clamp at the bottom and pull tension from the top or do two at a time and pull from the top, I'm "asking" the string to do pretty much the same thing. If I clamp at the bottom, I'm still pulling tension on a significant piece of string (4"), the 180 degree turn, and the main I'm tensioning. Please keep in mind that the Kevlar mains are really slick and slide pretty easily over the grommets. So, is this OK or is there another technique that might be better?
3. Last one - does anyone listen to the twang of the mains after the mains are done to audibly check the tension? Is it OK to push on the strings just to even them out tension wise or is this bad?
Thanks in advance for the help.
 
#2
Hi
1 : If you're pulling 60 pounds on 2 strings at once, you're getting 30 pounds on each.
2 : I think you might be getting about half the tension on the string you're not directly pulling, but definitely not the full tension.
3 : I sometimes pluck the mains, but mostly i don't. Pushing on the strings to even them out doesn't seem like a very reliable method. It could help with your specific, machine-related problem but it seems to me it would be a hassle and difficult to get a consistent string job from that.
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
#3
1 : If you're pulling 60 pounds on 2 strings at once, you're getting 30 pounds on each.
2 : I think you might be getting about half the tension on the string you're not directly pulling, but definitely not the full tension.
1. No, and
2. No.

If you pull 2 strings at once you will not get half the tension. You won't get the desired tension; you will get lower, maybe about 10lbs off.

When the OP starts the main, both strings are going in the tension head, so you get approaching the reference tension; and the tension should be the same on each string. If you pull 2 strings at once, such as in the Op's 2nd point, you wont get reference tension you will get lower. However the string that is going into the tensionhead will be tighter then the adjoining 1 you're pulling; neither will be half the reference tension but both will be approaching reference tension.

My suggested would, when tensioning the strings towards the throat single pull as you'd normally do and clamp as close to the frame as possible. Then, on the next string being tensioned at the head, pull that one twice to help pick up the slack.

Regards

Paul
 

gmatheis

Hall of Fame
#6
1. No, and
2. No.

If you pull 2 strings at once you will not get half the tension. You won't get the desired tension; you will get lower, maybe about 10lbs off.

When the OP starts the main, both strings are going in the tension head, so you get approaching the reference tension; and the tension should be the same on each string. If you pull 2 strings at once, such as in the Op's 2nd point, you wont get reference tension you will get lower. However the string that is going into the tensionhead will be tighter then the adjoining 1 you're pulling; neither will be half the reference tension but both will be approaching reference tension.

My suggested would, when tensioning the strings towards the throat single pull as you'd normally do and clamp as close to the frame as possible. Then, on the next string being tensioned at the head, pull that one twice to help pick up the slack.

Regards

Paul
I think the OP means he puts both strings in the gripper, if that's the case then they both get 30lbs of tension, it's basic physics.
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
#9
Go look up how to string. Better still, string the centre mains properly at 30lbs and record the sound when you pluck it. Now pull both at 30lbs and check the sound. Which is lower??

When pulling both strings at the same time you're pulling both ends at once, and you are effectively pulling the string against the centre grommet; so tension applied to the strings will be approaching reference tension, but not matching it.


This video, why it doesn't totally cover what I'm saying, it does give an indication of what happens to the tension when 2 strings are pulled at once. Watch from 0:50

The JSRA did 3 or 4 videos testing similar scenario. Hunt them down and watch them.

There's theory, and then there's practical.
 
#10
Go look up how to string. Better still, string the centre mains properly at 30lbs and record the sound when you pluck it. Now pull both at 30lbs and check the sound. Which is lower??

When pulling both strings at the same time you're pulling both ends at once, and you are effectively pulling the string against the centre grommet; so tension applied to the strings will be approaching reference tension, but not matching it.


This video, why it doesn't totally cover what I'm saying, it does give an indication of what happens to the tension when 2 strings are pulled at once. Watch from 0:50

The JSRA did 3 or 4 videos testing similar scenario. Hunt them down and watch them.

There's theory, and then there's practical.
http://blogs.bu.edu/ggarber/bua-physics-2/net-force/

it's basic physics
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
#11
Force applied by gravity is different to force applied in a linear motion. We are dealing with the latter. Even with a drop weight the string is pulled in a linear motion.

From the site you linked -

"When we have two vertical strings, then tension in each string is exactly half the weight. However, as the strings are stretched to angles, that tension increases. That is because the strings are not only supporting the weight of the object. They are also pulling against each other. So the spring scales actually measure a greater tension."
 
#12
Force applied by gravity is different to force applied in a linear motion. We are dealing with the latter. Even with a drop weight the string is pulled in a linear motion.

From the site you linked -

"When we have two vertical strings, then tension in each string is exactly half the weight. However, as the strings are stretched to angles, that tension increases. That is because the strings are not only supporting the weight of the object. They are also pulling against each other. So the spring scales actually measure a greater tension."


pic on the left is pulling both strings at once @60lbs, probably less than 30 because the slight twisting etc
pic on the right is with 1 string clamped off and just pulling a single string @60lbs

both done through a racket on the center 2 mains.

Force is force … doesn't matter if its gravity or pulled
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
#14
Well done, you've finally stepped up and try to show something.


As for the force. It does matter. Pulling it linearly is trying to replicate what happens naturally with gravity.

Of course, if every time we wanted to string at 30lbs, we'd simply set the machine to 60lb and pull 2 strings at once. Should we do that? If not, why not??
 
#16
Well done, you've finally stepped up and try to show something.


As for the force. It does matter. Pulling it linearly is trying to replicate what happens naturally with gravity.

Of course, if every time we wanted to string at 30lbs, we'd simply set the machine to 60lb and pull 2 strings at once. Should we do that? If not, why not??
I'm honestly not sure where to go from here … even when presented with actual evidence you won't change your mind.

Best I can do now I guess is to warn others not to listen to you.
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
#17
I'm honestly not sure where to go from here … even when presented with actual evidence you won't change your mind.

Best I can do now I guess is to warn others not to listen to you.
Yup, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Can you answer my Q of if we want to string at 30lbs why we don't set the machine to 60lbs and the just pull 2 strings at once? That would save some time. I may even introduce that at Wimbledon next year.
 
#18
It could work in theory, but in practice I think it's not a good way to get consistent tension on every string, and it would probably be very bad for the frames when you get to higher tensions.
 
#19
Yup, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Can you answer my Q of if we want to string at 30lbs why we don't set the machine to 60lbs and the just pull 2 strings at once? That would save some time. I may even introduce that at Wimbledon next year.
The only place that could even work would be the first pull, after that you don't have 2 ends to pull as one side of the string will already be tensioned and held at the clamp.

But you want reasons ...

So lets say you want 55lbs , you would have to pull 110lbs of tension … which most machines won't do.
another reason is that you would be pinching the strings together at the gripper but they are spaced in the string bed, this would also create inaccurate tension.
another reason is the risk of crossing strings in the gripper itself and damaging the string.

Happy?

I'm not sure what you think you know but you obviously don't.

The pictures I posted were taken by me about 1 minute before posting them. They PROVE you are wrong.
 
#20
Go look up how to string. Better still, string the centre mains properly at 30lbs and record the sound when you pluck it. Now pull both at 30lbs and check the sound. Which is lower??

When pulling both strings at the same time you're pulling both ends at once, and you are effectively pulling the string against the centre grommet; so tension applied to the strings will be approaching reference tension, but not matching it.


This video, why it doesn't totally cover what I'm saying, it does give an indication of what happens to the tension when 2 strings are pulled at once. Watch from 0:50

The JSRA did 3 or 4 videos testing similar scenario. Hunt them down and watch them.

There's theory, and then there's practical.
This video does not show pulling of 2 strings, it shows a "double pull" which is pulling a SINGLE string that goes around the frame. It is called a "double pull" because you are pulling tension on 2 mains … but you are still only pulling one string.

In this case both strings will be nearly the same tension but one will be slightly less due to friction of going around the frame.

THIS IS NOT WHAT THE OP IS TALKING ABOUT.
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
#21
The only place that could even work would be the first pull, after that you don't have 2 ends to pull as one side of the string will already be tensioned and held at the clamp.

But you want reasons ...

So lets say you want 55lbs , you would have to pull 110lbs of tension … which most machines won't do.
another reason is that you would be pinching the strings together at the gripper but they are spaced in the string bed, this would also create inaccurate tension.
another reason is the risk of crossing strings in the gripper itself and damaging the string.

Happy?

I'm not sure what you think you know but you obviously don't.

The pictures I posted were taken by me about 1 minute before posting them. They PROVE you are wrong.
Whatever I know seems I know less than you. Want a job in Wimbledon next year?

What I will concede is that I don't know everything about stringing. In fact no-one does.

Pictures are pictures, show us how you've set it all up.

This video does not show pulling of 2 strings, it shows a "double pull" which is pulling a SINGLE string that goes around the frame. It is called a "double pull" because you are pulling tension on 2 mains … but you are still only pulling one string.

In this case both strings will be nearly the same tension but one will be slightly less due to friction of going around the frame.

THIS IS NOT WHAT THE OP IS TALKING ABOUT.
Actually the OP is talking about that in point 2

But I'll tell you what; you stick to physics, and I'll stick to racquet stringing
 
#22
Whatever I know seems I know less than you. Want a job in Wimbledon next year?

What I will concede is that I don't know everything about stringing. In fact no-one does.

Pictures are pictures, show us how you've set it all up.



Actually the OP is talking about that in point 2

But I'll tell you what; you stick to physics, and I'll stick to racquet stringing
Maybe we're just not talking about the same things.


In the picture above both strings are being pulled, the tension on each string will be 1/2 of the total tension pulled by the tension head (slightly lower if they are not pulled straight which they can't be because they are being squeezed . This is physics … if you think otherwise you are wrong.


If this picture is more like what you are talking about then the red string will have full tension and the green string will have slightly less due to the friction at the orange section.

If that's why we don't agree I apologize. But if you think that in the first picture both strings get full tension then you don't know what you're talking about.
 
#24
@gmatheis I've woken up without a headache, and I admire your drawings. I'm happy to admit if I was incorrect, but the thing with stringing is that anyone interested in this skill/craft etc is that they should always be learning. For anyone to say they know all they need (about stringing) to know is short-sighted; and this is 1 (of many) thing(s) that I teach anyone learning to string. I have learnt to see things from a different perspective.

And with that, I have made my last post on this matter.


Life is short so make sure you spend as much time on the internet as you can arguing with strangers about nothing.
Agreed.
 
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