Advise on my flat serve.

Chanto

Rookie
My flat serve works very well in the group that I play with. As I play on a high school team at about the 3.5 level, I can usually hold serve with it easily. However, I came up with the motions by myself, after watching a lot of pro tennis. A couple of days ago, I played against another person who was maybe 17-18, and was at least a 5.0, who I think will play at least D2. His serve was completely better than mine, and I found myself getting aced more than half of the time. Scratch that, I think he aced me all the time with his first serve (at least 95-105+), and that I only returned second serves, which were still bombs. I know very little about body rotations and such, and I find myself thinking that I can improve my form to get the most out of it. I will gladly accept all critism that the members here can give.

Without further ado, the link to the video is here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtvbT-0LZJc

I'm sorry for the bad quality, my only camera is the 0.3MP on my phone :3

My current concerns are the positioning of my right arm and that I don't utilize a large swing path.


EDIT: Newest videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1B17AexIgk

Also, my kick, which is messed up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iusjt0-jUgc
 
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GetBetterer

Hall of Fame
You're attempting a pin point stance but your foot is taking a step and opening you up. Hence you lose power. The pin point stance brings your feet together while still giving you a closed stance.

Also might want to work on your toss.
 

Chanto

Rookie
So I should only move my left foot to where my right foot is?

Also, my toss is kinda low, kinda noticed it but didn't think too much of it until now. Thanks, I'll bring it up a couple feet.
 

Head Youtek

Rookie
Try this stand parallel to the baseline your a lefty so right foot in front left foot about a foot back rock back and when you go forward start the ball toss (toss it with decent height so you can get some power built up) and move your back foot (in YOUR case your left foot)to where it almost touches your front foot. Wait until the ball is in your hitting zone and hit the ball remember follow through has a lot to do with it. Try that and see if your serve improves.
 

Chanto

Rookie
Try this stand parallel to the baseline your a lefty so right foot in front left foot about a foot back rock back and when you go forward start the ball toss (toss it with decent height so you can get some power built up) and move your back foot (in YOUR case your left foot)to where it almost touches your front foot. Wait until the ball is in your hitting zone and hit the ball remember follow through has a lot to do with it. Try that and see if your serve improves.

Could you explain in detail the follow through a bit more? What you said about it was a bit vague. Also, could you tell me exactly where what I'm doing is differentiating from what you say? I do toss the ball when I lean forward. I don't necessarily stand parallel, but that's when I want to place the ball differently, I do not think that my position would effect my motion, and thus wouldn't effect my serve. Please do correct me if I'm wrong though.


Also, this is open to anyone; should I be pushing up with both legs? Doing the motion just now without a tennis ball, I realized I was using only my right leg in the first place.
 

Falloutjr

Banned
On my flat serve, I've found that hitting a good serve comes down to three important factors.

- Toss the ball in front of you, this allows you to get good forward momentum into the court and get solid power and foundation.

- Throw your racquet where you want the ball to go. Imagine yourself throwing your racquet at a spot on the court, and the ball will go there, and allows you to change the direction of the ball.

- Pronation. Gives me power and optimum control, really maximizes my serve potential.

Once you develop a consistent form which allows you to repeat these 3 things on a regular basis, your serve will really improve.
 

Chanto

Rookie
For aiming my serve, I usually either
A) Put a little slice on it to move it to the left,
or B) Change my grip a smidge, since the direction of the ball will change and my opponent won't see any difference until the serve.

Feedback on this?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Watched thru once...
You have jello arms, maybe tighten up and use some more muscle. Most players tend to muscle their serves, while you loosey goosey swing it.
LOWER your rackethand on trophy, before and after. You can do this best by RAISING your tossing hand, so your posture is archer's bow, toss shoulder higher than rackethand shoulder.
Your current high hitting hand on takeback robs you of tons of power potential.
I think you should stop and store some energy, then EXPLODE into your service motion. As is, you just flow thru.
A 5.0's serve will always ace a 3.5, if it goes in.
 

Chanto

Rookie
Watched thru once...
You have jello arms, maybe tighten up and use some more muscle. Most players tend to muscle their serves, while you loosey goosey swing it.
LOWER your rackethand on trophy, before and after. You can do this best by RAISING your tossing hand, so your posture is archer's bow, toss shoulder higher than rackethand shoulder.
Your current high hitting hand on takeback robs you of tons of power potential.
I think you should stop and store some energy, then EXPLODE into your service motion. As is, you just flow thru.
A 5.0's serve will always ace a 3.5, if it goes in.

So if what I'm thinking is correct, my lower type of toss is making me "flow through" my serve. If I toss the ball higher, this should help raise my tossing hand and help me stop at once. Interesting that I do swing so loose, maybe I'll try to muscle it more next time. And I'll just lower my left arm a bit?

Very insightful, thanks a lot.
 

Chanto

Rookie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6v0LAgH7DY

Okay, I've made some changes to my serve. The video quality is horrid, but you can make out what I'm doing. 2/3 of these went in and one missed by a foot, in case that's important at all. It feels slightly faster.

Anyways, I increased the height of my right arm, but I'm not sure if my left arm is low enough. Thanks for your input in advance.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Still would like to see your hitting elbow much lower, so you can explode up to the ball.
Nicer toss now, much higher tossing hand. Maybe add more closed stance, so you can twist into the serve. Or more stomach crunch, ala Roddick, to add upper body acceleration. Or more archer's bow, so the shoulders line up around 45 degrees to the ground.
Of course, all the above.
 

WildVolley

Legend
Your shoulders are remaining parallel with the ground throughout most of your service motion. This is partly what LeeD is talking about. I believe it is robbing you of power.

Take a look at your serve and then watch a video of a professional serving. You'll see that going into the trophy pose, usually the tossing hand shoulder goes up and the racket hand shoulder drops and then they switch places as you move up into your serve.
 

pvaudio

Legend
I'm surprised that LeeD is the only person to recognize it in like the first ten posts: you need to drop that rear shoulder a lot. Even during the second video there isn't nearly enough for a pinpoint server with a down-together up-together motion. Drop that hitting shoulder, and really practice your timing. Your shoulder rotation is only about 60% complete when you hit the ball. You need to be rotating through your swing, not rotating slightly, making contact, then turning to face the opponent after hitting the ball.
 

Chanto

Rookie
Interesting that you guys mention the shoulder turn. I usually turn my shoulders more when I want to slice it down the line on the ad court, and that usually works well. I guess I've been thinking that the shoulder turn adds more spin, I'll experiment a bit more with this. Again, I'm truly grateful for all of your help thus far.
Also, I hear of this closed stance often on here, but I don't actually know what it is :/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GFkqD7GBZQ&feature=related

Also, Andy Murray seems to bend his knees a bit more than I do, which might allow him to get more shoulder rotation?
 
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pvaudio

Legend
A shoulder turn isn't an option; it's an integral part of any service motion. You do not change your shoulder rotation at all when performing different types of serves. The changes are far more minute.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Twisting into the serve adds ball speed and pace. Try throwing anything facing straighton.
Stomach crunch helps some, Roddick the most.
Archer's bow helps the most, allowing you to hit up and complete your swing/as you contact the ball.
But swinging faster is the key. More effort.
 

Chanto

Rookie
Twisting into the serve adds ball speed and pace. Try throwing anything facing straighton.
Stomach crunch helps some, Roddick the most.
Archer's bow helps the most, allowing you to hit up and complete your swing/as you contact the ball.
But swinging faster is the key. More effort.

Now that I think about it, I used to stomach crunch a while back on my kick, and it helped a lot. I will try to integrate all of this, if I hit the courts again I'll bring a better camera. Hopefully I will be fortunate enough to garner your advice again. Again, thanks for the advice.

Also, after reviewing my videos again it feels like I am turning my shoulders but stopping. What should I do to tell my body to keep turning?
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Followthru farther over to your rightside, almost hitting your right shin.
But really, the service stroke should be finished high elbow, rackethead down around waist, THEN the finish comes into play, following thru to the opposite side of your body except on kick/twists.
 

athiker

Hall of Fame
901d6181.jpg


This is as near to ball contact as I could get. Yours was hard b/c of the quality and of course its not slow-mo like the Murray one. This is your flat serve...I didn't look at the kick serve video.

Look at your legs vs. Murray's. You seem to be walking through your serve instead of loading your legs and exploding up and into the ball. Your pinpoint actually looked better in the previous video...not the first video you posted, but I the middle one. Your right leg may already by back in contact with the ground by contact?...hard to tell. Look at Murray's left leg at contact.

Your shoulder angle doesn't look too bad compared to his here IMHO. Earlier it did seem like you were somehow managing to raise your tossing shoulder without dropping your hitting shoulder...seems impossible but looked that way. Looks better now.

EDIT: Might the shoulder angle problem be a timing thing? Looking again it looks like you do lower your right shoulder on the toss, but but then bring it back up before dropping the racquet into the trophy pose and then starting your motion up to hit the ball. So your motion into hitting the ball is actually still starting from a fairly high back shoulder position just like LeeD said on your earlier videos and not the lower one you now have at the time of toss. This is still limiting the maximum rotation and power even though you might have a bit more than you did originally. I suggest really looking at that vs. the Murray video...you have a hitch...almost 2 motions in your serve...he has one continuous motion with one shoulder drop.

Look at your posture at your hips compared to Murray. He is more out in front and you are almost pulling at the ball as it is pretty much above your hips. He is already "crunching" into the ball with the ball well in front of his hips. I can't see your non-hitting hand well to know what its doing but look at Murray's left hand/arm. He is crunching his core down and over it.

I'm not being critical...I just went through this thread to try to help my own serve and saw these differences!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GFkqD7GBZQ&feature=related
 
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athiker

Hall of Fame
Okay, I looked at the a couple of more time b/c I think I may be doing the same or similar thing. Watch Murrays slo-mo video. As he begins to bring the ball up for the toss his back shoulder slowly (hey-its slow mo!) begins to drop, as he slides his rear foot forward into the pinpoint its still dropping, even though his racquet head has rotated around and is now high in the "trophy pose", his back shoulder is still down...he does not bring it up with the racquet (like I think you do before dropping it only a bit again w/ the backscratch racquet head drop).

Now at .17 he is just beginning to push up with his legs and drop his racquet to "back scratch"...only now for the first time in the motion is his back shoulder beginning to rotate up...I think in some videos Pat Dougherty describes this part as the beginning of "cracking the whip"...his chest is completely open to the ball...and very quickly...even in slow mo...he cartwheels the shoulders forward and through...at .22 his right shoulder is now lower than his left and his hitting hand is by his opposite knee. Again...ball contact is in front of his hips and into the court. Thoughts?

Tommy Haas is the same:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rel60kMm53c&feature=related

Great angle on Gonzales show how his back shoulder stays down as he raises the racquet to trophy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=825atbm8bHw&feature=related

Nadal is a bit different on his initial takeback and seems to have a bit less shoulder drop in this clip...of course he is a pretty strong guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n76f2KJ36yA

Heres a smaller guy...Kohlschriber...odd start but look at that deep shoulder tilt and leg bend as he slides forward into pinpoint! :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XE5N3mSA8o&feature=related

Sampras...keeping that back shoulder down all through the bringing the racquet head up into trophy pose:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHO7dnt2eY&p=0D465A8D26DC21E2&index=14&playnext=4

Finally...a bit on the whip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmu7ihHI-l8&feature=related
 
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athiker

Hall of Fame
No problem...I went a little overboard b/c I'm trying to work on my own serve to so thought by writing it down and linking I'd have it for future reference.

Cliff note version is simply start with a nice high toss into the court to tilt your shoulders and keep your back shoulder down until you start your upswing and lead your upswing with your elbow.

Let me know if it works...then I'll try it. ;-)
 
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