Agassi one of the most underrated players?

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NadalAgassi

Guest
Is Agassi one of the most underrated players ever? It seems he does not get the credit he deserves from people anymore. The guy might have had the best return of serve and groundstrokes ever, he was a huge threat to win on all surfaces. And he might have won over 20 slams if Sampras didnt exist, if he played Australia every year, if he didnt choke those early slam finals, and if he hadnt wasted his talent from 96-98 and to a lesser degree some other years.
 

li0scc0

Hall of Fame
Is Agassi one of the most underrated players ever? It seems he does not get the credit he deserves from people anymore. The guy might have had the best return of serve and groundstrokes ever, he was a huge threat to win on all surfaces. And he might have won over 20 slams if Sampras didnt exist, if he played Australia every year, if he didnt choke those early slam finals, and if he hadnt wasted his talent from 96-98 and to a lesser degree some other years.

Those are a lot of 'if's'. ;)
 

Satch

Hall of Fame
too many if's in your post man..

and no i don't think he is underrated, his legacy is well known, too "bad" that in this era we already have 2 amazing players like rog and nad, so agassi is in shadow like everyone else.
 

Devilito

Legend
Without any “ifs” his career is outstanding. Especially during the Sampras era. You can say guys like Pete and Fed lived up to their potential and you couldn’t really ask for more, but with Andre you know he had it in him to win more than he did. Which, considering all he did win, is quite remarkable.
 

Satch

Hall of Fame
Without any “ifs” his career is outstanding. Especially during the Sampras era. You can say guys like Pete and Fed lived up to their potential and you couldn’t really ask for more, but with Andre you know he had it in him to win more than he did. Which, considering all he did win, is quite remarkable.

why he didn't?
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
The thing is Agassi probably lost out on 6 slams to Sampras, all 6 he lost to Pete. And he should have won both of the 1990 and 1991 French Open finals. Had he played the Australian Open from 1988 to 1994 he probably wins 3 or 4 of those. Had he been into his tennis he would have won another 3 or 4 slams from 96-98. I know those are alot of what ifs, but really 8 slams does not even come close to reflecting his true ability.

Many seem to say he is not even a top 10 all time now. How can a man who had the greatest return of serve and groundstrokes ever be not a top 10 player all time. Someone who basically played half the game better than anyone else ever.
 

Devilito

Legend
Many seem to say he is not even a top 10 all time now. How can a man who had the greatest return of serve and groundstrokes ever be not a top 10 player all time. Someone who basically played half the game better than anyone else ever.

It's crazy. Someone with 8 slams, won all 4 when they were on radically different surfaces, won the Olympics, Davis Cup, WTF and his performance past his 30s... it's insane to not consider him one of the best ever.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
agree w/ Satch. way toooo many ifs...agassi is not underrated.

sorry, but you have to rate based on concrete achievements and accomplishments. you can't rank based on potential. well you can, but it would be meaningless.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
It's crazy. Someone with 8 slams, won all 4 when they were on radically different surfaces, won the Olympics, Davis Cup, WTF and his performance past his 30s... it's insane to not consider him one of the best ever.

I agree. I think he definitely should be top 5 all time.
 

li0scc0

Hall of Fame
agree w/ Satch. way toooo many ifs...agassi is not underrated.

sorry, but you have to rate based on concrete achievements and accomplishments. you can't rank based on potential. well you can, but it would be meaningless.

Then Safin is GOAT!
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
How can he be a top 5 of all time when he belongs in Tier II great. And there's other Tier II greats are even ahead of him.

I think Agassi's versatility and sheer ball striking quality puts him ahead of Lendl, McEnroe, Connors, and Nadal.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
I think Agassi's versatility and sheer ball striking quality puts him ahead of Lendl, McEnroe, Connors, and Nadal.

Nah, he's behind in many other stats, especially to Lendl. The guy play so many years and still came up short. So i would say he's overrrated.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Nah, he's behind in many other stats, especially to Lendl. The guy play so many years and still came up short. So i would say he's overrrated.

I agree. Agassi's good but not on Lendl's level.

Actually if you break Agassi's and Lendl's game down subjectively, where is Agassi's advantage over Lendl except for the backhand and maybe the return?

And Lendl was pretty good there also.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Nah, he's behind in many other stats, especially to Lendl. The guy play so many years and still came up short. So i would say he's overrrated.

Agassi has just as many slams as those I listed except for Nadal. He has won all the Slams which none of those guys have done. He has won the Olympic singles gold, TMC, and Davis Cup, Miami, and Rome, so has won all the most important titltes in tennis really which few can say. He has won a record # of Masters titles before Nadal and Federer.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
I agree. Agassi's good but not on Lendl's level.

Actually if you break Agassi's and Lendl's game down subjectively, where is Agassi's advantage over Lendl except for the backhand and maybe the return?

And Lendl was pretty good there also.

Agassi has the greatest return of serve, backhand, and forehand of all time. That alone makes him a superior player to Lendl.
 

Justin Side

Hall of Fame
Agassi underachieved for many years but still ended up winning everything really important over the course of his career. He has a fine legacy.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Is Agassi one of the most underrated players ever? It seems he does not get the credit he deserves from people anymore. The guy might have had the best return of serve and groundstrokes ever, he was a huge threat to win on all surfaces. And he might have won over 20 slams if Sampras didnt exist, if he played Australia every year, if he didnt choke those early slam finals, and if he hadnt wasted his talent from 96-98 and to a lesser degree some other years.

I don't think Agassi is underrated! I think it's pretty well accepted that he's one of the top 10 players of all time. Maybe top 6 or 7. That's pretty amazing for a guy whose career was interrupted with injuries and who later confessed that he didn't even like the game.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
I think Agassi's versatility and sheer ball striking quality puts him ahead of Lendl, McEnroe, Connors, and Nadal.

I agree Agassi was probably better than Lendl and Connors. I don't know about Mac in his prime or Ralph. 1984 Mac was probably better than Agassi's best. And, Ralph is significantly quicker than Agassi. Maybe 1999 Agassi could beat Ralph on grass and fast hard court . . . maybe.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
I agree Agassi was probably better than Lendl and Connors. I don't know about Mac in his prime or Ralph. 1984 Mac was probably better than Agassi's best. And, Ralph is significantly quicker than Agassi. Maybe 1999 Agassi could beat Ralph on grass and fast hard court . . . maybe.

Problem with Agassi my friend is that he took years off. Remember Lendl had a huge serve and forehand plus I think he was clearly quicker than Agassi.

Lendl at his best over a period of five years won over 90% of his matches. That's with McEnroe, Connors, Becker, Edberg, Noah, Wilander, Leconte around. He won 146 tournaments (94 ATP but record keeping in Lendl's day was awful) and a ton of Master Level titles. Agassi never won 90% of his matches in any one year. Agassi won less than half the titles Lendl won at 60. They both won eight majors.

I would say that Lendl's had the better career.

McEnroe was unbelievable in 1984. He was 82-3, won Wimbledon and the US Open and was in the finals of the French Open. He won 65.32% of his games for the year, which is a staggering number. Very few in the history of tennis has surpassed that figure. Even Federer hasn't come close to this, peaking in the 61% range. I believe Agassi was around the 61% range there also in 1995. John McEnroe won 13 of 15 tournaments that year.
 
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Cuculain

New User
I agree Agassi was probably better than Lendl and Connors. I don't know about Mac in his prime or Ralph. 1984 Mac was probably better than Agassi's best. And, Ralph is significantly quicker than Agassi. Maybe 1999 Agassi could beat Ralph on grass and fast hard court . . . maybe.

I agree Agassi is a great player and maybe a little underated, and perhaps on the same level as Lendl, but better that Mac and Connors! no chance..
Agassi had a great return of serve, but Connors was better, and when in his prime faster and took the ball earlier..
those who think Lendl was better, are basing their opinions on wins he had when Connors was past his prime and had slowed , I recently watched the 82/83 USopens , and Connors outplayed , overpowered him and stunned him with his return of serve!
in the 84 USopen semi against Mac, when Mac was sublime , Connors broke his serve many times taking him to a full 5 sets!
someone mentioned tiers earlier, I have been watching tennis since the late 70s and so for me tier 1 is Borg , Mac , Connors. tier 2 Agassi Federer Nadal Lendl Sampras, Nastase , Vilas, Vitas.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
I don't think Agassi is underrated! I think it's pretty well accepted that he's one of the top 10 players of all time. Maybe top 6 or 7. That's pretty amazing for a guy whose career was interrupted with injuries and who later confessed that he didn't even like the game.

Well the problem is I dont hear people saying he is clearly top 10 and maybe top 6 or 7. And you mention he is better than Lendl and Connors which I agree with, but most people dont seem to believe that.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Well the problem is I dont hear people saying he is clearly top 10 and maybe top 6 or 7. And you mention he is better than Lendl and Connors which I agree with, but most people dont seem to believe that.

Maybe because most people have seen Lendl and Connors play while you haven't?
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Maybe because most people have seen Lendl and Connors play while you haven't?

I have seen them play plenty of times. Lendl was a great player but he was a workhorse. He didnt have Agassi's sheer talent level. Connors was great but Agassi plays a similar game and has a much better forehand, a better serve, and does most things just a bit better, Connors has more all court abilities though.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
I have seen them play plenty of times. Lendl was a great player but he was a workhorse. He didnt have Agassi's sheer talent level. Connors was great but Agassi plays a similar game and has a much better forehand, a better serve, and does most things just a bit better, Connors has more all court abilities though.


We weren't discussing "sheer talent level" but "being better".
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Lendl and Agassi results are similar though. So that is a different case. If you took a match where both were playing their best Agassi would win. In that case Lendl might win on clay and carpet, Agassi anywhere else.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Is Agassi one of the most underrated players ever? It seems he does not get the credit he deserves from people anymore. The guy might have had the best return of serve and groundstrokes ever, he was a huge threat to win on all surfaces. And he might have won over 20 slams if Sampras didnt exist, if he played Australia every year, if he didnt choke those early slam finals, and if he hadnt wasted his talent from 96-98 and to a lesser degree some other years.

No, I don't think he's underrated.

The thing is Agassi probably lost out on 6 slams to Sampras, all 6 he lost to Pete.

1990 US Open
1995 US Open
1999 Wimbledon
2002 US Open

They are the only slams Agassi was certain to win without Sampras.

And he should have won both of the 1990 and 1991 French Open finals.

Why? Gomez outplayed him in the 1990 French Open final, and Gomez was one of the in-form clay-court players that year along with Muster and Chesnokov.

In the 1991 French Open final, Courier had some fortune with the rain delay in the second set when the momentum had been solidly with Agassi, but that's just one of those things, and we still can't be certain Agassi would have won even without any rain delays. Agassi had his chances in the match to win and couldn't take them. Courier played better when it mattered most.

Had he played the Australian Open from 1988 to 1994 he probably wins 3 or 4 of those.

Would he? With the likes of Wilander, Lendl, Becker, Edberg and Courier playing in those Australian Opens, at a time when those guys were still closer to or in their primes?

Had he been into his tennis he would have won another 3 or 4 slams from 96-98. I know those are alot of what ifs, but really 8 slams does not even come close to reflecting his true ability.

He chose to stop his dedication to tennis during that period. Taking crystal meth during his 1997 descent to 141 in the world rankings, wasn't exactly wise.

Many seem to say he is not even a top 10 all time now. How can a man who had the greatest return of serve and groundstrokes ever be not a top 10 player all time. Someone who basically played half the game better than anyone else ever.

Connors was better at rallying and returning than Agassi, in my opinion.
 
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Mustard

Bionic Poster
I agree Agassi was probably better than Lendl and Connors. I don't know about Mac in his prime or Ralph. 1984 Mac was probably better than Agassi's best. And, Ralph is significantly quicker than Agassi. Maybe 1999 Agassi could beat Ralph on grass and fast hard court . . . maybe.

Agassi better than Lendl and Connors? No, just no.
 
for me tier 1 is Borg , Mac , Connors. tier 2 Agassi Federer Nadal Lendl Sampras, Nastase , Vilas, Vitas.

Right. Federer, Nadal, and Sampras are in the same tier as Vitas? That's LOL-worthy. How is McEnroe in another echelon than Federer, Sampras or even Nadal for that matter?

Are these just in terms of your preferences or is this what you consider an objective ranking?
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
No, I don't think he's underrated.



1990 US Open
1995 US Open
1999 Wimbledon
2002 US Open

They are the only slams Agassi was certain to win without Sampras.

Yes but he most likely would have also won the 1993 Wimbledon and 2001 U.S Open.

Wimbledon 1993- he owns Becker and Courier's worst surface by far is grass. Agassi nearly beat Sampras and had the level to beat both, despite not being at his best physically.

2001 U.S Open- Agassi owned Hewitt up to that point. Hewitt didnt start getting the better of Agassi for awhile until he had the mental lift of that U.S Open title.

Why? Gomez outplayed him in the 1990 French Open final, and Gomez was one of the in-form clay-court players that year along with Muster and Chesnokov.

Gomez was a quality clay courter but aging and past his physical prime by then, and even in his prime he wasnt able to make it that deep at a French until that year. He did play a great match and deserved to win, but Agassi playing to his potential wins. Agassi was so off his game and still took it to a very tough 4 setter vs an on fire Gomez.

In the 1991 French Open final, Courier had some fortune with the rain delay in the second set when the momentum had been solidly with Agassi, but that's just one of those things, and we still can't be certain Agassi would have won even without any rain delays. Agassi had his chances in the match to win and couldn't take them. Courier played better when it mattered most.

Agassi definitely wins without the rain delay but as you say you have to deal with those things. Courier did better so deservedly won. However my point is Agassi should have won, since he basically dominated most of the match and blew it somehow. Agassi totally blew this one.

Would he? With the likes of Wilander, Lendl, Becker, Edberg and Courier playing in those Australian Opens, at a time when those guys were still closer to or in their primes?

Lendl won in 1989 and 1990. He wasnt that great at the Australian, he won in years he didnt play anyone or when Edberg was injured and had to retire in the final (1990). I am even more impressed with Lendl's Wimbledon final runs than his Australian Open titles given how he lost nearly everytime he came up against another top guy who finished the match there.

Courier owned Agassi but on rebound ace which is Agassi's favorite surface it would have been alot tougher.

And Becker who won in 1991 was owned by Agassi on all courts since 1990.

Sampras won in 1994 and he has never beaten Agassi down under.

So Agassi winning say 3 out of those 6 is very realistic.


He chose to stop his dedication to tennis during that period. Taking crystal meth during his 1997 descent to 141 in the world rankings, wasn't exactly wise.

Agreed.


Connors was a better at rallying and returning than Agassi, in my opinion.

Respectfully disagree.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Yes but he most likely would have also won the 1993 Wimbledon and 2001 U.S Open.

Those 2 slams are far from certain. At 1993 Wimbledon, there's Becker and Courier, the latter of whom beat Agassi 6 times in a row from 1991-1995. Becker showed in 1995 what he is capable of doing to Agassi at Wimbledon, so that match is far from certain either. As for the 2001 US Open, there's Safin and Hewitt in the way.

Wimbledon 1993- he owns Becker and Courier's worst surface by far is grass. Agassi nearly beat Sampras and had the level to beat both, despite not being at his best physically.

1993 Wimbledon didn't have a single rain delay, so the dry grass meant that the ball bounced higher than normal, favouring Courier's game.

2001 U.S Open- Agassi owned Hewitt up to that point. Hewitt didnt start getting the better of Agassi for awhile until he had the mental lift of that U.S Open title.

Just remember what Hewitt did to Kafelnikov and Sampras.

Gomez was a quality clay courter but aging and past his physical prime by then, and even in his prime he wasnt able to make it that deep at a French until that year.

Gomez had an excellent 1990 clay-court season, certainly better than Agassi's, and he was ranked at number 7 in the world during the 1990 French Open, just 2 places below Agassi. In the semi finals, Gomez beat Muster in straight sets, the man who had won the 1990 Rome Masters and had been runner-up at the 1990 Monte Carlo Masters.

Lendl won in 1989 and 1990. He wasnt that great at the Australian, he won in years he didnt play anyone or when Edberg was injured and had to retire in the final (1990). I am even more impressed with Lendl's Wimbledon final runs than his Australian Open titles given how he lost nearly everytime he came up against another top guy who finished the match there.

I'd say Mecir, the man Lendl beat in the 1989 Australian Open final, is the best player never to win a slam. At the 1990 Australian Open, Edberg was very unfortunate in the final and had to retire, but both Lendl and Edberg would have been a big handful for Agassi, in my opinion.

Courier owned Agassi but on rebound ace which is Agassi's favorite surface it would have been alot tougher.

Have you seen Courier's run in the 1992 and 1993 Australian Opens? They were both pretty dominant, especially 1993.

1992 Australian Open
Round of 128: Jim Courier def. Rodolphe Gilbert (6-4, 7-6, 6-3)
Round of 64: Jim Courier def. Thomas Enqvist (2-6, 6-3, 6-1, 6-4)
Round of 32: Jim Courier def. Thomas Muster (6-1, 6-4, 6-2)
Round of 16: Jim Courier def. Marc Rosset (6-3, 6-1, 6-3)
Quarter Final: Jim Courier def. Amos Mansdorf (6-3, 6-2, 6-2)
Semi Final: Jim Courier def. Richard Krajicek (Walkover)
Final: Jim Courier def. Stefan Edberg (6-3, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2)

1993 Australian Open
Round of 128: Jim Courier def. Lars Jonsson (7-5, 6-0, 6-3)
Round of 64: Jim Courier def. Robbie Weiss (6-2, 7-5, 6-4)
Round of 32: Jim Courier def. Guillaume Raoux (6-4, 6-3, 6-4)
Round of 16: Jim Courier def. Sergi Bruguera (6-1, 6-3, 7-6)
Quarter Final: Jim Courier def. Petr Korda (6-1, 6-0, 6-4)
Semi Final: Jim Courier def. Michael Stich (7-6, 6-4, 6-2)
Final: Jim Courier def. Stefan Edberg (6-2, 6-1, 2-6, 7-5)

And Becker who won in 1991 was owned by Agassi on all courts since 1990.

The same Becker that Agassi said he deliberately avoided in the 1996 Australian Open by tanking his semi final match against Chang?

Sampras won in 1994 and he has never beaten Agassi down under.

Sampras was a better player at the 1994 Australian Open than what he was at the 1995 Australian Open and far less distracted too. Just looked at how he crushed the 2-time defending champion, Courier, in straight sets at the 1994 Australian Open in the semi finals. Agassi was also a lot better player by the time of the 1995 Australian Open (ranked number 2 in the world), than what he had been at the same time a year earlier (ranked number 23 in the world).

Respectfully disagree.

Fair enough.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Those 2 slams are far from certain. At 1993 Wimbledon, there's Becker and Courier, the latter of whom beat Agassi 6 times in a row from 1991-1995. Becker showed in 1995 what he is capable of doing to Agassi at Wimbledon, so that match is far from certain either. As for the 2001 US Open, there's Safin and Hewitt in the way.

Becker's win over Agassi at Wimbledon 95 was considered a huge upset at the time, which given Becker's Wimbledon pedigree just puts into perspective how much Agassi was considered to "own" Becker. That was Becker's only win over Agassi after 1990 which really puts things into perspective. Agassi is the heavy favorite everytime he steps on court with Becker just due to the matchup history.


1993 Wimbledon didn't have a single rain delay, so the dry grass meant that the ball bounced higher than normal, favouring Courier's game.

If it was that much like a hard court how do you explain Jana Novotna's run before the choke? I doubt Jana would run through Sabatini and Navratilova easily, then be destroying Graf in the last 2 sets of the final (until the historic gag) on a hard court-like surface, not at that point in her career anyway.


Just remember what Hewitt did to Kafelnikov and Sampras.

Kafelnikov with all due respect is a joke, for the top level guys I mean, in the context of the overall tour he would be a great player of course. The least talented player to ever win 2 slams, a pushover for the big guns. And more to the point he was always an incredibly easy opponent for Hewitt even when Hewitt was a low ranked teenager.

Sampras was completely gassed out for that final and serving about 40 mph below normal at times. You really think Hewitt so easily beats the Sampras that played Rafter and Agassi that same U.S Open? At the very least he would have a very tough match with that Sampras.


Gomez had an excellent 1990 clay-court season, certainly better than Agassi's, and he was ranked at number 7 in the world during the 1990 French Open, just 2 places below Agassi. In the semi finals, Gomez beat Muster in straight sets, the man who had won the 1990 Rome Masters and had been runner-up at the 1990 Monte Carlo Masters.

Gomez was still considered old and near the end of his career, and he hadnt been considered a huge threat to win a slam even back in his prime. I agree he is a quality clay courter and played great and deserved to win that French. However Agassi playing as he had up until the final could have and probably should have still won. If you watch the final you will see how poorly Agassi played and it still was a competitive 4 setter so it was in his grasp to win playing to his potential. That doesnt take anything away from Gomez, but I dont see how unreasonable that is.


I'd say Mecir, the man Lendl beat in the 1989 Australian Open final, is the best player never to win a slam. At the 1990 Australian Open, Edberg was very unfortunate in the final and had to retire, but both Lendl and Edberg would have been a big handful for Agassi, in my opinion.

Perhaps, who knows. Agassi maybe wasnt ready to win a slam that point anyway but he probably would have won the Australian at some point if he played it each year before 1995. He was far too proficient on it not to. While Agassi never owned Edberg like Becker, Edberg was a decent matchup for him since Agassi returned and passed so amazingly well and Edberg doesnt have a huge serve although a very effective one.

Have you seen Courier's run in the 1992 and 1993 Australian Opens? They were both pretty dominant, especially 1993.

1992 Australian Open
Round of 128: Jim Courier def. Rodolphe Gilbert (6-4, 7-6, 6-3)
Round of 64: Jim Courier def. Thomas Enqvist (2-6, 6-3, 6-1, 6-4)
Round of 32: Jim Courier def. Thomas Muster (6-1, 6-4, 6-2)
Round of 16: Jim Courier def. Marc Rosset (6-3, 6-1, 6-3)
Quarter Final: Jim Courier def. Amos Mansdorf (6-3, 6-2, 6-2)
Semi Final: Jim Courier def. Richard Krajicek (Walkover)
Final: Jim Courier def. Stefan Edberg (6-3, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2)

1993 Australian Open
Round of 128: Jim Courier def. Lars Jonsson (7-5, 6-0, 6-3)
Round of 64: Jim Courier def. Robbie Weiss (6-2, 7-5, 6-4)
Round of 32: Jim Courier def. Guillaume Raoux (6-4, 6-3, 6-4)
Round of 16: Jim Courier def. Sergi Bruguera (6-1, 6-3, 7-6)
Quarter Final: Jim Courier def. Petr Korda (6-1, 6-0, 6-4)
Semi Final: Jim Courier def. Michael Stich (7-6, 6-4, 6-2)
Final: Jim Courier def. Stefan Edberg (6-2, 6-1, 2-6, 7-5)

Yes I know how good Courier was at that point. Still he wasnt facing Sampras or Agassi at their best yet. Agassi's runs in Australia were convincing too. I am not saying Agassi would win both for sure, but he certainly could be more of a threat to Courier on rebound ace or grass either than on decoturf, clay, or indoors were all their matches were (and some of them Agassi had real chances to win despite the 6 match losing streak)


The same Becker that Agassi said he deliberately avoided in the 1996 Australian Open by tanking his semi final match against Chang?

Agassi's book was a big pile of nonsense (and I say that even as a fan). He probably said that since he was embarassed losing in straight sets in a slam semifinal to Chang twice in the same year. Especialy how little he respects Chang. Scared to play someone you beat 9 out of the last 10 times you played on your favorite surface, total BS.


Sampras was a better player at the 1994 Australian Open than what he was at the 1995 Australian Open and far less distracted too. Just looked at how he crushed the 2-time defending champion, Courier, in straight sets at the 1994 Australian Open in the semi finals. Agassi was also a lot better player by the time of the 1995 Australian Open (ranked number 2 in the world), than what he had been at the same time a year earlier (ranked number 23 in the world).

Of course but fact still remains Sampras never beat Agassi at the Australian or the French.
 

Cuculain

New User
Right. Federer, Nadal, and Sampras are in the same tier as Vitas? That's LOL-worthy. How is McEnroe in another echelon than Federer, Sampras or even Nadal for that matter?

Are these just in terms of your preferences or is this what you consider an objective ranking?

Just my opinion.
Having watched tennis since the late 70s , I dont believe the 90s or the 00s have the same depth as existed in the 70s and 80s, When Borg and Mac and Connors were playing , the depth and talent of the opposition these guys were winning slams in was I think far greater, than the following eras. And lets not forget these guys skipped the Australian open for years. One can only imagine what their final slam tally would be had it had been as recognised as it is now..

I simply feel that Sampras and Agassi , had very little competition from their field of players for the slams..Rafter when he came on the scene and Courier,
but the rest didnt really come close.
Same for Federer, until Nadal came along, he really had no real quality opposition , now there's Djokovic and Murray, challenging as well, but many of his slams were won with mediocre opposition.. and Nadal until recently was a one trick pony , clay.. but credit where it is due, he has adapted his game brilliantly to grass and hardcourts , and can now definately be considered among the greats..
On the other hand you look at the list of players during the era of Borg , Mac and Connors..and when you do in my opinion it makes their number of titles all the more impressive..
and Lendl you could say covered 2 eras.., actually you could say the same for Connors, as he turned pro in 1972! and was a force in tennis reaching semis in grand slams till the late 80s. even in the 90s his legendary run to the semis in the USopen!
So yep its all subjective anyway, but thats my take on it.. Federer and Nadal great players for sure, but as the saying goes how great you are depends on the enemies you defeat..to put that into sporting terms you opposition. and in this category the 3 Kings of the 70s-80s stand above the rest..
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Maybe because most people have seen Lendl and Connors play while you haven't?

I've seen Rosewall, Emerson, Laver, Newcombe, Ashe, Smith, Nastase, Connors, Borg, Vilas, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Courier, Agassi, Sampras, Federer and Ralph all play live. And, I think Agassi at his best was better than Connors or Lendl at their best. I also think Mac at his best was better than Agassi. JMHO, of course!
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Agassi under-rated??

I've seen Rosewall, Emerson, Laver, Newcombe, Ashe, Smith, Nastase, Connors, Borg, Vilas, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Courier, Agassi, Sampras, Federer and Ralph all play live. And, I think Agassi at his best was better than Connors or Lendl at their best. I also think Mac at his best was better than Agassi. JMHO, of course!

I mean what are we talking about here? Potential or actual achievements?:confused: Sure, Agassi had a great game...when his head and heart were actually into playing that game. If one is looking at potential, then Mac is the guy who should've done a lot more, frankly. You can argue that Agassi is a "better" player than Ivan or Jimmy (I fully disagree), but those 2 accomplished a hell of a lot more than Andre....and, what if Jimmy or Ivan won all those other GS finals where they were runners up? They'd be pretty high up there I think...

Andre redeemed himself late in his career and I don't equate his 4 AOs with the multiple Wimby's or USOs won by Jimmy, John and Ivan. Is Andre in my top 10? Sure, but like 8 or 9. And, in terms of "game", prime Ivan, Jimmy and John would all have an edge over Agassi (he'd be the most even w/Jimmy on medium speed surfaces, I think). Frankly, I can't even figure out when Andre's "best" game was, because it never lasted very long...maybe it's '94-95. I did admire his '05 run at the USO, nonetheless.

Andre never really had the big wins against his main nemesis Sampras when it really mattered; you cannot say the same about Jimmy/John/Ivan (or Borg) for that matter. These guys were all able to score some important wins against each other at "prime time" events. Andre wound up being Pete's whipping boy, 9 times out of 10.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
I agree Agassi is a great player and maybe a little underated, and perhaps on the same level as Lendl, but better that Mac and Connors! no chance..
Agassi had a great return of serve, but Connors was better, and when in his prime faster and took the ball earlier..
those who think Lendl was better, are basing their opinions on wins he had when Connors was past his prime and had slowed , I recently watched the 82/83 USopens , and Connors outplayed , overpowered him and stunned him with his return of serve!
in the 84 USopen semi against Mac, when Mac was sublime , Connors broke his serve many times taking him to a full 5 sets!
someone mentioned tiers earlier, I have been watching tennis since the late 70s and so for me tier 1 is Borg , Mac , Connors. tier 2 Agassi Federer Nadal Lendl Sampras, Nastase , Vilas, Vitas.

Agassi and Connors both have great returns, no doubt, with slightly different strengths. Jimmy got back those "unreturnables" and hit them at your shoestrings. That return won him the '82 and '83 USOs, no doubt. I was watching the '83 final again, and it was remarkable he could do that to Ivan's serve. Now, let's take a breath here and realize Jimmy was 30/31/32 when he was still beating Ivan Lendl in GS events like the USO and Wimby....yet, a young Andre performed badly against Ivan in USOs '88 and '89. I know you could argue that Andre was young, blah, blah, but his game was pretty well formed at that point. I just don't see Andre as markedly better than EITHER of these guys at their best...certainly there are superior aspects of his game (forehand), but overall I'd be very hard pressed to say he is a markedly better player. Not that much worse, mind you, but just one level below when you take overall game into account. I like the guy, but he is a notch below the 70s/80's greats.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Again...sheer talent, Safin is in the conversation of Top 5 all time.
We are talking RESULTS. Lendl > Agassi

so true; Safin could be an absolute genius when he was on....I'd put him right up there w/Mac....talk about an underachiever...what he could've done!

But, results talk...which is why most Top 10 lists from 1970 on have Borg, Sampras, Fed, Connors, Mac and Lendl on them...these guys delivered the goods.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Agassi has just as many slams as those I listed except for Nadal. He has won all the Slams which none of those guys have done. He has won the Olympic singles gold, TMC, and Davis Cup, Miami, and Rome, so has won all the most important titltes in tennis really which few can say. He has won a record # of Masters titles before Nadal and Federer.

As PC1 said, when you break it down, Andre does not have much of an edge over Lendl...forehands are truly about even; Lendl has a better serve, by far..Andre the return (Lendl quite good there but not at the Andre/Connors level)...Andre's backhand is better, but Lendl no slouch. And, I actually think on most surfaces, Lendl is/was the better mover.

Re: titles, Olympics don't factor in until late 80s. Davis Cup is it's own animal, and there, the champ is Mac. And even tho' Andre gets many kudos for winning the 4 individual slams, guys like Wilander and Connors were also multi-surface GS champs. Shoot, even Wilander at his best, I think, could outfox and outplay Andre, I am sorry to say. Andre had one of the least adaptable/flexible games on the planet...he played one way and it worked or it didn't. There was never a plan B (likely because his short court game and net game were pretty atrocious).
 

BrooklynNY

Hall of Fame
To me Agassi is great, but he is somewhat of a compiler...
He is like Lou Pinella in the Hall of fame for baseball. If you play long enough you will eventually do some good things.

Not to say he isn't great aside from that, but i think the fact that he just played basically forever allowed him to just compile some impressive accomplishments, but obviously he wasn't the best of his time in general or on any given surface.
 

TonLars

Professional
Just my opinion.
Having watched tennis since the late 70s , I dont believe the 90s or the 00s have the same depth as existed in the 70s and 80s, When Borg and Mac and Connors were playing , the depth and talent of the opposition these guys were winning slams in was I think far greater, than the following eras. And lets not forget these guys skipped the Australian open for years. One can only imagine what their final slam tally would be had it had been as recognised as it is now..

I simply feel that Sampras and Agassi , had very little competition from their field of players for the slams..Rafter when he came on the scene and Courier,
but the rest didnt really come close.
Same for Federer, until Nadal came along, he really had no real quality opposition , now there's Djokovic and Murray, challenging as well, but many of his slams were won with mediocre opposition.. and Nadal until recently was a one trick pony , clay.. but credit where it is due, he has adapted his game brilliantly to grass and hardcourts , and can now definately be considered among the greats..
On the other hand you look at the list of players during the era of Borg , Mac and Connors..and when you do in my opinion it makes their number of titles all the more impressive..
and Lendl you could say covered 2 eras.., actually you could say the same for Connors, as he turned pro in 1972! and was a force in tennis reaching semis in grand slams till the late 80s. even in the 90s his legendary run to the semis in the USopen!
So yep its all subjective anyway, but thats my take on it.. Federer and Nadal great players for sure, but as the saying goes how great you are depends on the enemies you defeat..to put that into sporting terms you opposition. and in this category the 3 Kings of the 70s-80s stand above the rest..

I do not agree with the depth argument you and others give at all. Just because in one era the best players are closer to each other in ability, and in another era you have a couple players who are dominant and definitely above the rest, does not indicate that the latter had "medicore competition".

The game in general now has better athletes, and tennis as a sport has evolved and improved. Federer and Nadal are simply dominant and deserve the credit; they are defeating incredible competition.
 
Agassi could have and should have been the best ever. But he has pretty much admitted he wasted his prime tennis years. IF he had had Sampras' focus early in his career he probably would have won quite a few more slams. It's simply amazing that he was able to do what he did later in his career, and solidifies the argument that he could've been the best ever.....IF....
This leads me into something else. Everyone was all up in arms as to how Agassi spoke of Pete in his book. The book was written first person, as he felt at the time in history. When he said he envied Pete for his dullness, he was really complementing Pete on his resolve and drive. Pretty much admitting he wished he had less distractions so he could focus on tennis. Anyways, that's a whole other discussion.
 

justicepool

New User
Agassi is one of my favorite players, but I still believe an objective point of view would place him among the all time greatest players to have ever played the game.

First, he is the first player to win a career grand slam on four different surfaces (please correct me if I am wrong).

Second, he is the first player to win a career golden slam.

These are two incredible accomplishments. Laver is great, but I don't believe he won the career grand slam on four different surfaces (not saying he couldn't, just saying the slams were not set up that way then, again, correct me if I am mistaken). Also, the Australian Open was not nearly as competitive as it has become in "modern" tennis.

Those who would consider Agassi "second" tier are not being objective in my opinion by any stretch of one's imagination.

Why isn't he considered the greatest of all time (again in my opinion)? It has nothing to do with the number of grand slams won or lost (well, at least that is not the number 1 thing). I think it is well documented that he lacked the mental fortitude that Lendl, Sampras, Federer, and most recently Nadal have demonstrated.

Agassi is my all time favorite, but the mental focus, strength, and dedication of those previously mentioned is remarkable. It is so difficult to stay on top consistently for such a long period of time. Both he and McEnroe basically dropped out of tennis during what is normally an athlete's prime tennis years. However, he did demonstrate the mental fortitude to climb from the bottom back to the top of the game, which is a remarkable accomplishment in and of itself. But he was never able to sustain that focus and dedication as consistently as Lendl, Sampras, and Federer. McEnroe was not able to regain that focus in the "second half" of his career.

And, even though Lendl (who never won Wimbledon) and Sampras (who never won the French Open) they are on my list of all time greats not only because of the number of grand slams they won, but also equally because of the mental strength they demonstrated over such a long period of time. Remarkable!

Federer managed to win the French Open (to complete his career grand slam) which is his well known weakest surface and demonstrated an incredible mental strength over several years as the number one player.

Nadal has also won on all four surfaces and what impresses me most about Nadal is his competitiveness and desire to win. He recognized weaknesses in his game (much like Lendl) and went back and worked hard to improve his game. He was not satisfied with merely being "great".

My list of all time greats (1972 forward) in alphabetical order are:

Agassi
Borg
Connors
McEnroe
Lendl
Federer
Nadal
Sampras


In my opinion, it is senseless to try to compare the all time greats of pre-modern tennis like (Laver, Gonzales, Emerson, Budge, Hoad, and Kramer) to those of the modern game.

Just my .02.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
I think Agassi's versatility and sheer ball striking quality puts him ahead of Lendl, McEnroe, Connors, and Nadal.
The fact that McEnroe also won 10 grand slam doubles titles puts him well ahead of Agassi imo in the all-time stakes. (not to mention winning slam titles in 3 different decades)

Also, weeks at #1
- McEnroe - 170
- Agassi - 101

Lendl... same number of Slams (but no Wimly) but an insanely more successful career ranking and consistency-wise.

Lendl > Agassi imo.
 
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