Alcaraz is 4-4 against Djokovic!?
- Thread starter FeroBango
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Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Carlos needs to focus on trying to beat the players of his generation, not some old dude.
True. But for every meaningful exhibition loss, there's a meaningful exhibition win.
Jk, exhibitions are never as meaningful as serious tour matches -- yes including Challenger matches.
GRASScaraz
Professional
Alcaraz having a losing H2H with the worst ever version for Djokovic is just disgraceful.
Prime Murray, Nadal or Fed would be roasting this 37 year old version 6-1 6-1
Prime Murray, Nadal or Fed would be roasting this 37 year old version 6-1 6-1
Best version since 2018 no cap. Even clear of that 2021 self.
Too bad he didn't get the Djokovic of AO 2024 in his 2023 encounters tbh.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Well, except for Laver Cups.
Berrettini_Fan
Semi-Pro
Nadal has a more recent HC victory over Djokovic than Alcaraz does.
Winner Sinner
Professional
Given that as a Sinner fan I am the first to not count the match in the Six Kings Slam between the 2 in the h2h, it is not an official match therefore it should not be counted among the official ones.
Having said that, I find it hilarious that the usual Spaniard fanboys find a way to compare a coin-operated exhibition match with no stakes like the one between Djokovic and Alcaraz last December, with the recent one between Sinner and Alcaraz where there were 6 million at stake, let's say about 1.5 between the winner of the final and the loser.
Alcaraz fanboys are now clinging to the most insignificant things to change the current status quo which sees Sinner having created a crater in the rankings against the Spaniard.
Alcaraz's fanboys are currently more upset than Alcaraz himself was after suffering defeats in Cincinnati 23 and Paris 24 in the Olympic context, where in both cases Djokovic took the Spaniard's soul away.
Having said that, I find it hilarious that the usual Spaniard fanboys find a way to compare a coin-operated exhibition match with no stakes like the one between Djokovic and Alcaraz last December, with the recent one between Sinner and Alcaraz where there were 6 million at stake, let's say about 1.5 between the winner of the final and the loser.
Alcaraz fanboys are now clinging to the most insignificant things to change the current status quo which sees Sinner having created a crater in the rankings against the Spaniard.
Alcaraz's fanboys are currently more upset than Alcaraz himself was after suffering defeats in Cincinnati 23 and Paris 24 in the Olympic context, where in both cases Djokovic took the Spaniard's soul away.
No the Riyadh one counts according to TTW.
TheGoldenEra1990’s
Hall of Fame
Considering Djoker is almost 40 that’s bad any way you cut it. It shows he wouldn’t have a prayer against the Djoker of 10-12 years ago. He would be lucky to win a match
Winner Sinner
Professional
And in any case, in that performance in Riyadh, notice how Djokovic hit him with balls like in the semifinal in Turin.
Then, since it was just an exhibition with no stakes but with the sole aim of entertaining the public, he consciously decided to dig in and not get angry.
Then, since it was just an exhibition with no stakes but with the sole aim of entertaining the public, he consciously decided to dig in and not get angry.
Winner Sinner
Professional
Now let's not exaggerate the opposite.
The Djokovic who beat Alcaraz, therefore the one seen between the 2023 Roland Garros semi-final, the 2023 Cincinnati final, the 2023 Turin semi-final, and the 2024 Olympic final, was still an ultra-luxury version.
Even Federer and Nadal in their prime would have struggled to beat him, while Murray in his prime would most likely have lost as well.
Especially in 2023 Djokovic was a false 36 year old, he still had a cutting-edge athletic outfit, to which he combined a greater arsenal and greater experience.
Moreover, in a conference in Turin after winning the title in 2023, when asked precisely what today's Djokovic would have done against the version of himself 10 years earlier, he responded like this;
"This year (2023) I had a great year even though my best season was probably 2015.
I don't know how a match between the me of today and a version of me from 10 years ago could end, but I'm sure that the me of today would have the weapons to put the me of 10 years ago in difficulty."
gamelovergold
Rookie
Sound very interesting that novak in 2023 can challenge novak of 2015. Novak says like this for keeping his morale high but no way you can argue thAt 2023 novak is better than 2015 version. Reality is different.
Tennfan123
Legend
I see the big 3 era is certainly over when the next gen of fan wars has begun!
still don’t know team I’m on.
still don’t know team I’m on.
Winner Sinner
Professional
In fact, I am not arguing that the 2023 Djokovic was better than the 2015 one and in general than the 2011-2016 one.
I am simply saying that stating that the Djokovic who beat Alcaraz would have taken a beating from Federer, Nadal and Murray is a gross exaggeration, hopefully only emphasized on purpose.
I am convinced that the 2023 Djokovic would have beaten any version of Murray more than he would have lost.
Just as I am convinced that off clay the 2023 Djokovic could have beaten the best version of Nadal on any other surface. There may already be more doubts about the best version of Federer, but;
1) Let us remember that in his prime Federer had a very difficult time beating a 35-year-old version of Agassi in the 2005 US Open final.
2) If Federer in his prime had difficulty beating the first Djokovic on some occasions, sometimes even losing as in the 2008 Australian Open semifinal (excluding mononucleosis), why would the 2023 Djokovic, who in my opinion was superior to the 2007-2010 Djokovic, have been doomed regardless?
People underestimate the level of the 2023 Djokovic too much.
Rewatch the Turin final against Sinner, he played a match bordering on perfection, conceding only 7 points in response to one of the best returners on the circuit, thanks to a devastating serve, and at the same time he wrapped up Sinner's usual pressure in the baseline exchanges, showing off a mix of aggressive play and monumental defenses.
He committed the first unforced error of that match roughly halfway through the second set.
No, the Djokovic seen between the semifinals and the final in Turin 2023 could have beaten even the best versions of Federer, Murray, Nadal, and even himself 2011-2016. Which doesn't mean he was superior (than Murray yes) or on the same level as them, but he could have had his say.
That Riyadh exhibition was the litmus test to his Goathood. Shame.
I'm still on team Fed
Hitman
Bionic Poster
OP, the exho that took place last December was an exho in every sense of the word, they were both getting paid the same amount no matter what. What happened in Six Slam Kings is a bit different, they were indeed playing for money, even if the match doesn't officially count in the ATP H2H, the winner was going to make more money than the loser, which is in essence what professional tennis is all about, it just was not a sanctioned ATP or ITF event.
The official H2H between them is still 3-0 for the season in favor of Alcaraz, but don't kid yourself, they were legit beating the snot out of each other in that Six Kings Slam final, as there was money on the line, money that they had to earn by winning.
The official H2H between them is still 3-0 for the season in favor of Alcaraz, but don't kid yourself, they were legit beating the snot out of each other in that Six Kings Slam final, as there was money on the line, money that they had to earn by winning.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Choose excitement and epicness.
JoshDragon
Hall of Fame
Makes sense to me. Carlos is in his prime, Novak is not.
objection_
Rookie
I mean I do think 2023 Djoko would get some occasional wins against prime/peak big 4, but maybe 1 or 2 wins out of 10 matches played, depending on surfaces
23 Djoko has losing H2H's against 2012 and 2016 Murray
Using 2008 AO Djoko is a bit disingenous because thats probably a top 3/4 version of himself at that event, basically playing as aggressively as 2023 but with better movement.
23 Djoko would probably be favoured against most versions of Rafa indoors, and could obviously seek upset wins against prime big 4 as they had off days sometimes. Spectacular, sure, but let's not pretend 17 Fed and to a lesser extent, 22 Rafa weren't capable of also upsetting prime versions of themselves.
Winner Sinner
Professional
I absolutely disagree, especially with the relationship you make in the balance of their hypothetical challenges.
But above all when you say that Djokovic AO 2008 with the same aggressiveness would have made more movement worthwhile.
Yes, that Djokovic in terms of movement was obviously better than the 2023 Djokovic, but in terms of the arsenal of shots and the solidity of the shots themselves (primarily the serve) the comparison doesn't even begin in favor of the 2023 Djokovic.
Let's also look at how he won the 2023 US Open final against Medvedev by leveraging serve and volley.
The 2023 Djokovic would have won most of the matches against the 2008 Djokovic.
And in any case the absurdity is not to think that the Djokovic of recent years could have had equal matches with the fab four in their prime, but rather to think that the Djokovic of recent years who has divinely held his own against the new champions of world tennis (Sinneraz ) is swept away by the fab four in their prime, as if to say that the fab four in their prime were infinitely superior to Sinneraz.
Already the Sinner of this 2024 alone in my opinion is superior to any version of Murray.
objection_
Rookie
Well then thats entirely subjective...
It's more than reasonable to say that 2023 Djoko has a better serve than 2007-2010 Djoko on aggregate, but 08 AO?? Did you even watch the matches in this tournament??
Forehand wise, both were extremely aggressive and excellent. Backhand wise, 2008 Djoko was better, as 2023 Djoko had the groin strain and couldn't slide into the shot - this was noticeable evident when he was stretched out wide.
Match Stats/Report - Djokovic vs Federer, Australian Open semi-final, 2008
Novak Djokovic beat Roger Federer 7-5, 6-3, 7-6(5) in the Australian Open semi-final, 2008 on hard court Djokovic would go onto beat Jo-Wilfried Tsonga in the final to win his first Slam title. This was his second win over Federer and first at a Slam. Federer had won the last two...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
2023 US Open final against Medvedev?? He was getting gassed by the third and was lucky to win the second set - Medvedev had a clear DTL backhand pass on set point and instead went right back to Djoko off a sitter shot, who knows how the rest of the match goes.
2023 Djoko probably has the edge against 2008 Djoko on grass and maybe indoors, USO and RG is arguable, 2008 was superior elsewhere.
Being swept away by the Fab four is of course an exaggeration, but the fact remains that, while 23 Djoko may be able to peak for certain events, it's purely logical that he'd lose the majority of the matches. He skipped many masters and smaller events (so did 17 Fed and 22 Rafa), which is of course necessary in order to preserve an older body for the big events. It isn't implausible that he would fail to bring the same consistency and lose more matches had he played the year long schedule and faced younger big 4 in every tournament.
Fab four in their prime may not be infinitely superior to Sinnerraz, but their day to day consistency is still unparalleled, particularly by Alcaraz, and while I appreciate the excellent tennis these two young guns give us, they've skipped plenty of events. Tennis isn't just judged on peak level but also on your floor, and how you win on your bad days.
While I believe 24 Sinner is going to beat Murray's accomplishments, I bet Andy would love to face Taylor Fritz in a slam final. Competition matters.
Winner Sinner
Professional
I know how Djokovic served in the 2008 Australian Open, very well before everything was turned upside down with the change of racket. But do you know how Djokovic 2023 served?Well then thats entirely subjective...
It's more than reasonable to say that 2023 Djoko has a better serve than 2007-2010 Djoko on aggregate, but 08 AO?? Did you even watch the matches in this tournament??
Forehand wise, both were extremely aggressive and excellent. Backhand wise, 2008 Djoko was better, as 2023 Djoko had the groin strain and couldn't slide into the shot - this was noticeable evident when he was stretched out wide.
Just check out Waspting's match stats, it's rare to see Djoko outserve a decent version of Fed but he did it emphatically here, was able to dictate play excellently and clutch on big points against stronger competition. I'm not one of the guys to make fun of Djoko's slams as being inflated and can appreciate his solid level that he can bring at his age, but there's a gulf of difference in capabilities between prime Fed and an excellent Tsonga vs Tommy Paul and Tsitsipas who forgot how to hit a forehand.Match Stats/Report - Djokovic vs Federer, Australian Open semi-final, 2008
Novak Djokovic beat Roger Federer 7-5, 6-3, 7-6(5) in the Australian Open semi-final, 2008 on hard court Djokovic would go onto beat Jo-Wilfried Tsonga in the final to win his first Slam title. This was his second win over Federer and first at a Slam. Federer had won the last two...
2023 US Open final against Medvedev?? He was getting gassed by the third and was lucky to win the second set - Medvedev had a clear DTL backhand pass on set point and instead went right back to Djoko off a sitter shot, who knows how the rest of the match goes.
2023 Djoko probably has the edge against 2008 Djoko on grass and maybe indoors, USO and RG is arguable, 2008 was superior elsewhere.
Being swept away by the Fab four is of course an exaggeration, but the fact remains that, while 23 Djoko may be able to peak for certain events, it's purely logical that he'd lose the majority of the matches. He skipped many masters and smaller events (so did 17 Fed and 22 Rafa), which is of course necessary in order to preserve an older body for the big events. It isn't implausible that he would fail to bring the same consistency and lose more matches had he played the year long schedule and faced younger big 4 in every tournament.
Fab four in their prime may not be infinitely superior to Sinnerraz, but their day to day consistency is still unparalleled, particularly by Alcaraz, and while I appreciate the excellent tennis these two young guns give us, they've skipped plenty of events. Tennis isn't just judged on peak level but also on your floor, and how you win on your bad days.
While I believe 24 Sinner is going to beat Murray's accomplishments, I bet Andy would love to face Taylor Fritz in a slam final. Competition matters.
And here too, to avoid misunderstandings, given where the discussion is going, no one is saying that Djokovic 2023 was superior to Djokovic in his prime, or in general compared to the big three in their prime, the discussion was based on the single hypothetical challenge and not on which version would have completed a more competitive hypothetical season.
This is where consistency makes the difference.
I also remember how you highlighted the difficulties he was having in the second set with Medvedev in the final of the US Open, he literally seemed on his legs... but he still won it in 3 sets against one of the best players on hard surfaces seen in this millennium.
I don't think beating Medvedev 3-0 in a final is more deplorable than losing a final 3-2 against Safin or Del Potro, don't you think?
As for your last interpretation.
Sinner is currently undeniably finding less competition than Murray had in his first. However, finding Fritz and sweeping him away 3-0, and in general finding himself on a path like the last US Open not with such a high difficulty coefficient and still leaving only two sets on the road, did his part, would the best Murray have done the same? Who can say?
You can hardly do more than dominate low competition (Federer prime docet).
I'm simply saying that I would have liked to see a Murray facing not only that low competition but also at the same time withstand the pressure due to the case of the two positives that suddenly came to light right on the eve of the US Open, just to understand how he would have handled such dynamics.
messiahrobins
Legend
didnt realise..just know at the majors its Alcaraz 2-1 Djokovic and Slam finals its Alcaraz 2-0 Djokovic. Some things stick more than others.
objection_
Rookie
23 Djoko served pretty well throughout the year, especially in Turin, but it deserted him at the Wim final, arguably the most important match of the year. 23 Med was at a decent level, but was always gonna be susceptible to SnV with his return position. Even Raz could have pulled it off in the semi but let go of many break point chances in the first set. Safin clearly played better and the Delpo match was winnable in straights or in 4 for Fed, although his serve deserted him. It isn't inconceviable that 2015 Fed at the US Open also defeats 23 Med, perhaps even more convincingly.
Murray was certainly capable of doing so, case in point on the road to his slam finals.
AO 2010: Dropped only 1 set in the SF to a decent Cilic on the way to the final, before facing prime Fed
AO 2011: Dropped 1 set in the QF and 1 set to the SF before facing peakovic in the F
AO 2015: Dropped 1 set in the 4R and 1 set in the SF before facing peakovic in the F
Wim 2016: Dropped 2 sets in the QF, didn't lose any other sets to win
So I think he was capable of doing so provided with a weak final opponent, especially since the sets he dropped included the likes of Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga and Dimitrov, solid players themselves.
Great match. Thoroughly entertaining.
Particularly in high profile exhibitions, it's always the better man who wins. Or so says TTW.
Disagree. I remember watching that match live and it was not your typical flood-relief exhibition.
That Riyadh match had plenty in common with the Riyadh exhibition of this year. It was a serious match with not a single smile on display. Neither man wanted to lose.
Rightfully yet, it doesn't count towards H2H much like this Riyadh exhibition.
We have posts and threads discrediting the Raz h2h over Sinner over here -- citing court speeds (lol), roid saga and what not. Please allow me to have my fun comparing these comparable exhibitions.
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sportsfan1
Legend
Oddly, the old one legged dude has been the toughest out for Carlos - see olympics and cinci finals. He's taken care of sinner more easily.
Tennfan123
Legend
I’m leaning that way.
but something about the robotic carrot intrigues me.
I've been told that Riyadh's serious exhibitions count just as much.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
I know I will
zakopinjo
Semi-Pro
Progress is visible
From exhibition to serious exhibition.
In a few days, you might even accept the fact that it was a full competition match without exhibition elements.
Was the WTA finals in Riyadh a serious exhibition?
Winner Sinner
Professional
Yet another of your falsehoods among the myriads you have already spread.
You just don't like that when everything seemed set (eclipse of the big three) to allow Alcaraz to constantly impose his dictatorship on the circuit, Sinner's definitive explosion is ruining this "your" bellicose plan.
You will have to live with this nightmare for a long time.
The ATP finals is NOT and exhibition, it is the most important tournament after the slams. To Nadal fans it is an exhibition because Rafa never won it. Thw Federer fans always that it was a very important tournament.
Riyadh Tennis Season is more important than the ATP finals according to the Sinriders of TTW though.
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