Alcaraz leads Sinner on HC 5-2

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nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
This is one of the most overlooked point in Sineraz rivalry.

Alcaraz has won 5 times and Sinner has just 2 wins back in 2023. Yet the tennis world seems to have anointed Sinner as de-facto HC dominator.

What is the reason behind Alcaraz dominating Sinner to this degree on HC?

I think their rivalry is very even in general regardless of surfaces. Alcaraz won 26% return games vs Sinner which is very high number when we compare Sinner's other rivals on HC are not able to break him even a few times.


 
Sinner is around 2 years elder to Alcaraz and HC is his best surface. This does not make sense why he would fall 2-5 behind. Is it selective data or Sinner has underperformed a lot ? I think Raz in Beijing 2023 actually underperformed to his usual self and that is one of Sinner's wins vs him on HC.
 
To be honest, after watching some news of alcaraz netflix documentary, im not so sure what to expect, the guy isnt fully commited, its kind of normal being 21, but he already sees teenis as an obligation for a lot of time of the year, he doesnt want to train more than the minimum..., the social media era is different from before, players are different, but sinner still goes the old school way about it, and it has served him well, its understandable that playing and trainning since he was 3 years old, he wants to see other things, to be with friends and go party, but that cant go hand in hand with reaching the numbers he is aiming for, after watching all these recent news, i understand his path and results much more, and to be honest, i dont feel too good about it, i dont think he will fully mature until 24 or 25 years old, this is not gonna be a big 3 kind of path, carlitos is his own man, and we can never know what will come from him
 
Sinner is more dominant on HC and there is no question about it. Regarding 5-2 it is for carlos credit that he is leading but it is early to judge.
Medvedev was also leading h2h but see now
 
gamelovergold said:
Sinner is more dominant on HC and there is no question about it. Regarding 5-2 it is for carlos credit that he is leading but it is early to judge.
Medvedev was also leading h2h but see now
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I think this is right but Nadal never went 5-2 up vs Djokovic on HC and Djokovic is 1 year younger to Nadal.

But sinner is 2 years older and still went 2-5 down.

How is this possible is alcaraz is so much worse than Nadal on HC.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I think this is right but Nadal never went 5-2 up vs Djokovic on HC and Djokovic is 1 year younger to Nadal.

But sinner is 2 years older and still went 2-5 down.

How is this possible is alcaraz is so much worse than Nadal on HC.
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Making great points here. The narrative on TTW is that Alcaraz is scared of The Terminator, but the results on Terminator's best surface don't even support that. Let alone all surface results
 
Rosstour said:
Making great points here. The narrative on TTW is that Alcaraz is scared of The Terminator, but the results on Terminator's best surface don't even support that. Let alone all surface results
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I think people in ttw like to play mainstream narratives like alcaraz is very bad on HC. Despite him beating sinner in his best year point blank.
 
Rafa had Fed early on with HCs.

Carlos the Shepherd is going to struggle more on HCs as time goes on. He had the early edge, but I do not see that lasting. In fact, I don't know that Carlos will beat Sinner on hards again for a while.

Carlos seems to have got worse not better. He also seems to have gotten better on clay, so that might play a role as well.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I think people in ttw like to play mainstream narratives like alcaraz is very bad on HC. Despite him beating sinner in his best year point blank.
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I just think some ppl are so emotionally attached to Sinner that they need to believe this stuff. Before him it was Rune and before that it was Thiem.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I think this is right but Nadal never went 5-2 up vs Djokovic on HC and Djokovic is 1 year younger to Nadal.

But sinner is 2 years older and still went 2-5 down.

How is this possible is alcaraz is so much worse than Nadal on HC.
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Nadal won against the best version of fedrer and that too in wimbeldon . But nobody says nadal was better than fedrer(in grass ) .
Till now alcaraz has upper hand but give it time and things can change
 
gamelovergold said:
Nadal won against the best version of fedrer and that too in wimbeldon . But nobody says nadal was better than fedrer(in grass ) .
Till now alcaraz has upper hand but give it time and things can change
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You are right. Nadal beat Federer once in Wimbledon. We don't need to say this.

But raz beat sinner 5 of the 7 times.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Alcaraz has won 5 times and Sinner has just 2 wins back in 2023. Yet the tennis world seems to have anointed Sinner as de-facto HC dominator.
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The head-to-head between two players is irrelevant as to which is the better player on a particular surface. Overall results make that determination. Sinner hasn't been "anointed" as anything. He has earned his hard court rep by winning the last three hard court slams, plus the Tour Finals in a rout, plus three hard court Masters events along the way. Really, could this question be any easier to answer?
 
JMR said:
The head-to-head between two players is irrelevant as to which is the better player on a particular surface. Overall results make that determination. Sinner hasn't been "anointed" as anything. He has earned his hard court rep by winning the last three hard court slams, plus the Tour Finals in a rout, plus three hard court Masters events along the way. Really, could this question be any easier to answer?
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I agree sinner is better on HC. I never asked this question.

The question I asked was why is Alcaraz having 5-2 h2h despite being younger than Sinner? Even last year he went 2-0 up.
 
JMR said:
The head-to-head between two players is irrelevant as to which is the better player on a particular surface. Overall results make that determination. Sinner hasn't been "anointed" as anything. He has earned his hard court rep by winning the last three hard court slams, plus the Tour Finals in a rout, plus three hard court Masters events along the way. Really, could this question be any easier to answer?
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Then beating a HC MUG like Alcaraz should have been easy, no?
 
nolefam_2024 said:
You are right. Nadal beat Federer once in Wimbledon. We don't need to say this.

But raz beat sinner 5 of the 7 times.
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nolefam_2024 said:
You are right. Nadal beat Federer once in Wimbledon. We don't need to say this.

But raz beat sinner 5 of the 7 times.
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Every cloud has a silver lining. Matches lost to alcaraz will make Sinner work more harder and that will help sinner in winning more titles.
Regarding alcaraz going up 5-2 it is good for alcaraz he is +3 in h2h
 
gamelovergold said:
Every cloud has a silver lining. Matches lost to alcaraz will make Sinner work more harder and that will help sinner in winning more titles.
Regarding alcaraz going up 5-2 it is good for alcaraz he is +3 in h2h
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I agree. It's good for the younger guy to be already +3 ahead.

Next match between these two will be very high stakes.
 
It's not really complicated. The sample size is still pretty small and half of them have basically been coin-flips that ended up going Alcaraz's way. I wouldn't read too much into it, at least not in terms of using it as an indicator of future results.

Sinner deserves to be treated as by far the best hard court player on Earth right now. And Alcaraz deserves to be treated as his biggest threat, but more often than not he won't even reach Sinner.
 
MeatTornado said:
It's not really complicated. The sample size is still pretty small and half of them have basically been coin-flips that ended up going Alcaraz's way. I wouldn't read too much into it, at least not in terms of using it as an indicator of future results.

Sinner deserves to be treated as by far the best hard court player on Earth right now. And Alcaraz deserves to be treated as his biggest threat, but more often than not he won't even reach Sinner.
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You are right. But how much sample size is big enough is also a valid question.

5 times?
 
Rosstour said:
Doping?
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More like not going to ibiza to "destroy" himself like carlos said he did, while sinner is trainning carlos is finding every possible day off as he can, i mean, i can have that life, carlos cant if he wants to fullfil his potential, he wants to have it both ways, but theres a choice to be made, he will understand that sonner or later.

I do believe carlos is the most talented player since federer but federer already settled with mirka from an early age, times are different now, and that can affect the outcome, he can get away with winning big while not comitting 100% percent now, but not in the long run, and not during the whole year, each person is different and needs different things but at the end of the day, such a big goal as being the best player in history requires that you give your life to it, not just half of it, i will still enjoy carlos, but i do belive you can see a lot of the personal life of a player in the way he plays, and carlos is a genious, but he is messy, at this age, its understandable, but it will reach a point where roads split and you have to choose, and its not an easy choice with all that money on the bank unless you really know what you want and how bad you want it, after all, life is much more than tennis and we cant blame him as its his life and his choices, but we can just hope he finds a way to fight for it while being happy with his day to day
 
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nolefam_2024 said:
You are right. But how much sample size is big enough is also a valid question.

5 times?
Click to expand...
I'd just like to see them meet on more courts. They've never played at some of Sinner's better spots like Canada or Cincy, yet they've played twice at IW. They only have 1 indoor hard match, which was their first ever back in 2021, so that doesn't tell us much. Sinner would be a very heavy favorite in Australia at this point too.
 
MeatTornado said:
I'd just like to see them meet on more courts. They've never played at some of Sinner's better spots like Canada or Cincy, yet they've played twice at IW. They only have 1 indoor hard match, which was their first ever back in 2021, so that doesn't tell us much. Sinner would be a very heavy favorite in Australia at this point too.
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Let's see

I think this is very even match outside of indoor fast courts including Australia. But this is based on what . Just hypotheticals.

Because both sinner and raz are very young. I am not endorsing either as unbeatable as of now.
 
TheSlicer said:
To be honest, after watching some news of alcaraz netflix documentary, im not so sure what to expect, the guy isnt fully commited, its kind of normal being 21, but he already sees teenis as an obligation for a lot of time of the year, he doesnt want to train more than the minimum..., the social media era is different from before, players are different, but sinner still goes the old school way about it, and it has served him well, its understandable that playing and trainning since he was 3 years old, he wants to see other things, to be with friends and go party, but that cant go hand in hand with reaching the numbers he is aiming for, after watching all these recent news, i understand his path and results much more, and to be honest, i dont feel too good about it, i dont think he will fully mature until 24 or 25 years old, this is not gonna be a big 3 kind of path, carlitos is his own man, and we can never know what will come from him
Click to expand...
Was the documentary worth watching?
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Let's see

I think this is very even match outside of indoor fast courts including Australia. But this is based on what . Just hypotheticals.

Because both sinner and raz are very young. I am not endorsing either as unbeatable as of now.
Click to expand...

Carlos beat Sinner in Shanghai 24 which is even faster than either of the Slams.

I completely agree with everything you're saying here
 
MichaelNadal said:
Was the documentary worth watching?
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Actually i didnt watch it yet, but a couple of trailers came out and they were pretty interesting, you get to see how he behavies in his day to day, and he actually has a personality, unlike a lot of sportmen today, so i find it interesting as an alcaraz fan for some years already
 
TheSlicer said:
Actually i didnt watch it yet, but a couple of trailers came out and they were pretty interesting, you get to see how he behavies in his day to day, and he actually has a personality, unlike a lot of sportmen today, so i find it interesting as an alcaraz fan for some years already
Click to expand...

I love his sincerity, absolutely unlike previous superstars that way.
 
Apparently ferrero has an iron mindset as a coach, and it clashes with carlos's more laid back, free mindset, yet somehow they kind of find a balance in the middle.
Ferrero does say that if carlos decides he doesnt want to be the best and give his life to tennis, ok, they will low the bar, but that given his personality, he doesnt know if he wants to be his coach that way, after all, unfulfilled talent is a sad thing
 
Rosstour said:
Carlos beat Sinner in Shanghai 24 which is even faster than either of the Slams.

I completely agree with everything you're saying here
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Actually Carlos beat him in Beijing and not Shanghai.

Beijing is slower like IW. But I just don't see how sinner fans have moral high ground as long as it's hard court despite the court speed.

This is like Djokovic being 5-2 down vs Nadal if alcaraz is such a mug on hc.
 
As to the subject of the thread, with what we have seen between these two on hardcourts, i will give a maybe short sighted opinion but to me the true one, and its not something people dont know: carlos the better player, sinner the more consistent, and to me thats not surface dependent
 
TheSlicer said:
As to the subject of the thread, with what we have seen between these two on hardcourts, i will give a maybe short sighted opinion but to me the true one, and its not something people dont know: carlos the better player, sinner the more consistent, and to me thats not surface dependent
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I think they are both capable of beating each other in every surface and will share all slams. Yes Carlos is better but not everywhere.

I don't see this one way or another approach ttw has spewed since end of 2024. Both can beat each other and will in every surface.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I think they are both capable of beating each other in every surface and will share all slams. Yes Carlos is better but not everywhere.

I don't see this one way or another approach ttw has spewed since end of 2024. Both can beat each other and will in every surface.
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For sure, margins are thin between these two and how many hours they slept that night and how inspired they feel that day can decide the outcome of their matches, yet, both at their 100% i just think carlos has more tools, but the thing is, during a couple of weeks, carlos is more prone to have a bad day or two and not reach later rounds, at best of 5 he has more time to find solutions, but hard courts take away time from you and things can go quick against a good server, thats why carlos needs more percentage of his level to beat players on hardcourts, but alcaraz at his best physically and mentally? Yeah i think he can beat anyone at any court no problem
 
TheSlicer said:
For sure, margins are thin between these two and how many hours the slept that night and how inspired they feel that day can decide the outcome of their matches, yet, both at their 100% i just think carlos has more tools, but the thing is, during a couple of weeks, carlos is more prone ti have a bad day or two and not reach latter rounds, at best of 5 he has more time to find solutions, but hard courts take away time from you and things can go quick against a good server, thats why carlos needs more percentage of his level to beat players on hardcourts, but alcaraz at his best physically and mentally? Yeah i think he can beat anyone at any court no problem
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As of today that is true but sinner has gone next level like raz said in his documentary. I think his best is probably better.

Also I don't think this will be as surface dependent rivalry as Rafa vs nole or fed vs Rafa. They are going to beat each other in most slams and all surfaces.

Already today sinner has wins vs alcaraz on Wimbledon and clay and Carlos barely beat him in RG. While Carlos holds 5-2 on hc.

They will beat each other regardless of the surfaces.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
As of today that is true but sinner has gone next level like raz said in his documentary. I think his best is probably better.

Also I don't think this will be as surface dependent rivalry as Rafa vs nole or fed vs Rafa. They are going to beat each other in most slams and all surfaces.

Already today sinner has wins vs alcaraz on Wimbledon and clay and Carlos barely beat him in RG. While Carlos holds 5-2 on hc.

They will beat each other regardless of the surfaces.
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Yeah i also think other factors will be more important than the surface, but thats the thing about sinner, i think his next level reaching was due to the comitment he has put, you can kind of see it, even on the court, how diligent he is about his game, not making silly mistakes is also a proof of how much he trains, how much time he spends on court, and i dont see that in alcaraz game during a lot of times of the year, thats why i would like alcaraz to comit like that, to see how far he can reach, but of course, hes not a circus monkey put there for our entertainment, he will make his choices as a person, as they say, just because you have a big **** it doesnt mean you have to be a porn actor lol
 
TheSlicer said:
Yeah i also think other factors will be more important than the surface, but thats the thing about sinner, i think his next level reaching was due to the comitment he has put, you can kind of see it, even on the court, how diligent he is about his game, not making silly mistakes is also a proof of how much he trains, how much time he spends on court, and i dont see that in alcaraz game during a lot of times of the year, thats why i would like alcaraz to comit like that, to see how far he can reach, but of course, hes not a circus monkey put there for our entertainment, he will make his choices as a person, as they say, just because you have a big **** it doesnt mean you have to be a porn actor lol
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Alcaraz said sinner reached level in RG semis that he has not yet reached. And it was the cramps in sinner's hand that gave raz ability to play less than his best and win.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Let's see

I think this is very even match outside of indoor fast courts including Australia. But this is based on what . Just hypotheticals.

Because both sinner and raz are very young. I am not endorsing either as unbeatable as of now.
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Well really I'm just talking about the immediate future. It's not like I expect Sinner to win 10 AOs like Novak or Carlos to never win it.

Lots of ebbs and flows likely to come if they have full, healthy careers.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Alcaraz said sinner reached level in RG semis that he has not yet reached. And it was the cramps in sinner's hand that gave raz ability to play less than his best and win.
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Yeah that was a weird match, i mean sinner started blasting and alcaraz started slow, they both had a bit of cramps in that match, but thats a match where they both came from injuries, i wouldnt read a lot into that match, also even if there can be arguments for saying clay is alcaraz best surface, i dont think its a very obvious thing, he just has a little more time there to swing big, and can break more due to serve being less efective but thats about it, his game its not really tailored to clay in many ways and he has intrinsic things in his game that are actually far from ideal for clay court tennis
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Alcaraz said sinner reached level in RG semis that he has not yet reached. And it was the cramps in sinner's hand that gave raz ability to play less than his best and win.
Click to expand...

Alcaraz is a respectful and modest guy, he's not going to say "yeah I'm better than so and so"

He's like Rafa that way and I mean that as a compliment to both guys. Rafa almost always acted like Fed was the better player, even when Rafa was pasting him everywhere.
 
I've said this many times but it bears repeating. Talking about Sinner as the guy to beat in the present tense, when he has been off the tour for 3 months serving a doping ban, is counting chickens before they hatch. Expectations should be kept in check. Unless you live in denial about the doping
 
Rosstour said:
I've said this many times but it bears repeating. Talking about Sinner as the guy to beat in the present tense, when he has been off the tour for 3 months serving a doping ban, is counting chickens before they hatch. Expectations should be kept in check. Unless you live in denial about the doping
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Unless you think Sinner was continuing to dope throughout USO 24 and AO 25 after his failed test had already become public, there's no reason to think he won't pick up where he left off after shaking off a little rust.

And if you think he was doping that whole time even under public scrutiny, wouldn't he continue to do so now?
 
MeatTornado said:
Unless you think Sinner was continuing to dope throughout USO 24 and AO 25 after his failed test had already become public, there's no reason to think he won't pick up where he left off after shaking off a little rust.

And if you think he was doping that whole time even under public scrutiny, wouldn't he continue to do so now?
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That’s why silent ban theories are moronic.
 
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