Alcaraz more majors, Sinner more weeks at #1?

Aabye5

Aabye5

Talk Tennis Guru
It seems there are more players who can trouble Alcaraz on hard courts than Sinner, and given the current number of hard court events on the calendar, having an advantage on hard courts seems to be a big boon for any player.

Still, Alcaraz has already won the US Open, as well as Wimbledon and the RG. He's proven he can win on all surfaces, which suggests he has more opportunities to add to his tally.

In the end, do you think it is likely that Sinner ends up as the more consistent player, but Alcaraz ends up with more majors?
 
Sinner has proven to ME he can win on all surfaces. Raz barely squeaked past him on clay and clay would be sinner's worst surface.

He will probably dominate wimby that I am not much worried.
 
TheGoldenEra1990’s said:
Sinner should win more majors easy cause there’s 2 hardcourt slams. There’s only so many times Carlos can win RG and Wimbledon. Alcaraz would essentially have to more RGs than Nadal and more Wimbledons than Fed. Yea good luck with that LOL
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But there are arguably more players who can challenge at the hard court majors than at either Wimbledon or Roland Garros.
 
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To me, there’s more to greatness than the slam title race. This is why I declared Djoker the winner of the Big 3 in one of my posts, despite Djoker being on the short end of 20/20/19 after he bagged the 2021 FO


That being said, I do think that’s it’s likely that Alcaraz wins the slam title race between him and Sinner. And yet, Sinner ends up being greater between the two.
 
Pheasant said:
To me, there’s more to greatness than the slam title race. This is why I declared Djoker the winner of the Big 3 in one of my posts, despite Djoker being on the short end of 20/20/19 after he bagged the 2021 FO


That being said, I do think that’s it’s likely that Alcaraz wins the slam title race between him and Sinner. And yet, Sinner ends up being greater between the two.
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Yes, this is very true and one of the reasons I ask this question.
 
Pheasant said:
To me, there’s more to greatness than the slam title race. This is why I declared Djoker the winner of the Big 3 in one of my posts, despite Djoker being on the short end of 20/20/19 after he bagged the 2021 FO


That being said, I do think that’s it’s likely that Alcaraz wins the slam title race between him and Sinner. And yet, Sinner ends up being greater between the two.
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How do you decide who is greater? Does style count for anything in your opinion? To me Sinner isn't far from being a more successful Berdych playing against a far inferior field. Alcaraz is something else altogether. In terms of style of play there is no contest.

As far as results go, Alcaraz has the upper hand too. I can understand projecting into the future and seeing Sinner outperform Alcaraz just in plain numbers, as he does appear to be able to maintain a consistent high level. But it is too early to tell, and Alcaraz at this point (being two years younger and all) has twice the slams, and slams on all surfaces.
 
all raz weeks he got until now are due politics (W22 points, AO deportation and nordamerikas bans) , maybe sinners too (doping)
 
Net Beast said:
How do you decide who is greater? Does style count for anything in your opinion? To me Sinner isn't far from being a more successful Berdych playing against a far inferior field. Alcaraz is something else altogether. In terms of style of play there is no contest.

As far as results go, Alcaraz has the upper hand too. I can understand projecting into the future and seeing Sinner outperform Alcaraz just in plain numbers, as he does appear to be able to maintain a consistent high level. But it is too early to tell, and Alcaraz at this point (being two years younger and all) has twice the slams, and slams on all surfaces.
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Surely Alcaraz the younger one also has more weeks at 1.
 
Pheasant said:
To me, there’s more to greatness than the slam title race. This is why I declared Djoker the winner of the Big 3 in one of my posts, despite Djoker being on the short end of 20/20/19 after he bagged the 2021 FO


That being said, I do think that’s it’s likely that Alcaraz wins the slam title race between him and Sinner. And yet, Sinner ends up being greater between the two.
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You sure about this? Sinner is leagues ahead on hardcourt and nobody seems to trouble him these days, and he gave Carlos a huge run for his money at FO, on his least favored surface and being 3 weeks out of training. I think Sinner still has room to improve but I think Carlos has plateaued
 
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dking68 said:
You sure about this? Sinner is leagues ahead on hardcourt and nobody seems to trouble him these days, and he gave Carlos a huge run for his money at FO, on his least favored surface and being 3 weeks out of training. I think Sinner still has room to improve but I think Carlos has plateaued
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Imo He should have won FO, Madrid injury detailed his invincible form. There's a reason why I think he will win CYGS soon.
 
dking68 said:
You sure about this? Sinner is leagues ahead on hardcourt and nobody seems to trouble him these days, and he gave Carlos a huge run for his money at FO, on his least favored surface and being 3 weeks out of training. I think Sinner still has room to improve but I think Carlos has plateaued
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AgeAlcaraz's career slam countSinner's career slam count
1910
2020
2140
2250
2372
2484
25106
26118
27129

I could see something like this happening before they both slow down drastically. I'm this is barring injuries. But you never know. That said, Sinner has a lot of ground to make up.
 
Hitman said:
I don't know about this.....Sinner has the game to seriously dominate this tour. It's good we have both though, what we need now is a slam final between them next year.

All the big rivalries need slam final meetings.
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Yeah, you were the one of the earliest poster who saw this incoming dominance, but I would appreciate more if you board on Sinner train and become his outright fan.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I guess this can happen but let's see.
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I normally don't do forecasts, since it's impossible to predict. But I decided to have some fun with this one. My gut is that the 21-year old Alcaraz will get a lot better with his placement of his serves. If that happens, then he's going to be an ATG at Wimbledon. He can occasionally get hot on hard courts and clay to steal a few slams there. Sinner is scary, because he's insanely deadly on hard courts. The guy pulled off the hard court slam double this year, something even Agassi and Sampras never did. You need to be special to pull off that double. So I think that Sinner will gain on Alcaraz by age. But he has a long ways to go. Of course, in early-1985, Wilander pulled ahead of Lendl 4-1 in slams, despite being 4 years younger. And yet, Lendl still won 8-7(and during an era where hardly anybody won slams past the age of 27). So Sinner does have time.
 
NeutralFan said:
That was pre prime Sinner.
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True. I'm not ruling out Sinner. But with a gun to my head, I think that Alcaraz squeaks out the slam race between these two. At the same age, he has a 4-slam lead + a year to spare.

I truly believe that we have 2 ATGs in the making now. They are phenomenal players. Sinner is more consistent; kind of like Federer and Djoker were. Alcaraz has insane peaks, but is less consistent and more prone to upsets; kind of like Nadal was.
 
Net Beast said:
How do you decide who is greater? Does style count for anything in your opinion? To me Sinner isn't far from being a more successful Berdych playing against a far inferior field. Alcaraz is something else altogether. In terms of style of play there is no contest.

As far as results go, Alcaraz has the upper hand too. I can understand projecting into the future and seeing Sinner outperform Alcaraz just in plain numbers, as he does appear to be able to maintain a consistent high level. But it is too early to tell, and Alcaraz at this point (being two years younger and all) has twice the slams, and slams on all surfaces.
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You are correct. It's way too early to tell. We are just having fun with predictions; most of which will be way off.

But to answer your first question:

Playing style doesn't have any bearing on greatness, IMHO. However, it means a lot as to which player that I'll be a fan of.
I rank weeks at #1 ahead of slam titles. I.e, guys like Lendl and Sampras were monsters, due to having way more weeks at #1 than the next best players of their era did. They are heavyweights, despite having way fewer slam titles than the Big 3. For example, I mentioned on a thread in 2021 that I moved Djoker ahead of Fed, mainly due to weeks at #1, despite Djoker being on the short end of 20/20/19 in the slam title race.

This being said, I think that Alcaraz can squeak out the slam title race over Sinner. Hard courts are by far the most competitive. This works against Sinner's strong point to some degree. However, Sinner will likely have a lot more weeks at #1.
 
Net Beast said:
How do you decide who is greater? Does style count for anything in your opinion? To me Sinner isn't far from being a more successful Berdych playing against a far inferior field. Alcaraz is something else altogether. In terms of style of play there is no contest.

As far as results go, Alcaraz has the upper hand too. I can understand projecting into the future and seeing Sinner outperform Alcaraz just in plain numbers, as he does appear to be able to maintain a consistent high level. But it is too early to tell, and Alcaraz at this point (being two years younger and all) has twice the slams, and slams on all surfaces.
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Word, man - my view too, though both kids are developing into great players.
I find it daft to anticipate that Carlitos will do less well, when he has already excelled in his field. I anticipate that he will excel on all surfaces, and Jannik will too. They are each developing their games and will no doubt battle for the titles, joined by others who are heading for excellent careers.
The desperation for a given favourite to dominate is amusing, as is the translation of that desperation into some sort of certainty. Rivalry can be fun, but desperation, and the pettiness it gives rise to, less so.
 
Hitman said:
I don't know about this.....Sinner has the game to seriously dominate this tour. It's good we have both though, what we need now is a slam final between them next year.

All the big rivalries need slam final meetings.
Click to expand...
Alcaraz is light years ahead of Sinner, its akin to Sampras v Courier. Sinner will be an ATG, Alcaraz though is destined to probably be hailed the Greatest, he is still nowhere near his peak whereas Sinner probably now is.
 
Pheasant said:
You are correct. It's way too early to tell. We are just having fun with predictions; most of which will be way off.

But to answer your first question:

Playing style doesn't have any bearing on greatness, IMHO. However, it means a lot as to which player that I'll be a fan of.
I rank weeks at #1 ahead of slam titles. I.e, guys like Lendl and Sampras were monsters, due to having way more weeks at #1 than the next best players of their era did. They are heavyweights, despite having way fewer slam titles than the Big 3. For example, I mentioned on a thread in 2021 that I moved Djoker ahead of Fed, mainly due to weeks at #1, despite Djoker being on the short end of 20/20/19 in the slam title race.

This being said, I think that Alcaraz can squeak out the slam title race over Sinner. Hard courts are by far the most competitive. This works against Sinner's strong point to some degree. However, Sinner will likely have a lot more weeks at #1.
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Thank you for going into some detail on this. I think we have completely opposite view points. I put a lot of importance on style (all things being approximately equal). What I mean is that among great players, I will put more importance on style over minor advantages on other areas. I still rank Federer over Djokovic and Nadal, for example.

Tennis is not weightlifting, it is a skill sport, and it is supposed to be aesthetically pleasing. Djokovic and Sinner are consistent and very skilled players, but Federer and Alcaraz are on a completely different tier. I am not saying that Sinner and Djokovic are equals, or that Alcaraz and Federer are equals either.

Djokovic has the numbers advantage over Federer, but Federer overall is a greater player (and I feel his competition was stronger overall too), so for me Fed is greater.

As far as Alcaraz, not only is he a much more talented player than Sinner (who does a few things exceptionally well, but lacks the variety and inventiveness in his game that Alcaraz has), but also has double the amount of slams, slams on all surfaces, Channel Slam, has actually defeated Sinner en route to two of his slams (whereas Sinner's slam runs have been against underwhelming competition), etc. And he is almost 2 years younger. Maybe Sinner will pull ahead at some point, but I don't see how anyone can claim he is superior in any way at this point. Alcaraz is on a different level. What is scary is that Sinner has been pretty dominant on HC, and yet you could make an argument that Alcaraz's season is more impressive (at least regarding slams).

Stylistically Alcaraz will always be ahead of Sinner, though. They are completely different players. Not that Sinner isn't skilled, but his approach to tennis is not the same. Alcaraz is already legendary at 21, and I can't think of many players you can claim the same about.
 
Tallawah Tennis said:
Word, man - my view too, though both kids are developing into great players.
I find it daft to anticipate that Carlitos will do less well, when he has already excelled in his field. I anticipate that he will excel on all surfaces, and Jannik will too. They are each developing their games and will no doubt battle for the titles, joined by others who are heading for excellent careers.
The desperation for a given favourite to dominate is amusing, as is the translation of that desperation into some sort of certainty. Rivalry can be fun, but desperation, and the pettiness it gives rise to, less so.
Click to expand...
Fan wars are full of nonsense. In the end, people have different tastes, and that is fine.

What is really important is that Sinner/Alcaraz is a great rivalry, and it has already delivered multiple legendary matches. Look at the point at 0:52 below. 19 year old Alcaraz.

 
Net Beast said:
Thank you for going into some detail on this. I think we have completely opposite view points. I put a lot of importance on style (all things being approximately equal). What I mean is that among great players, I will put more importance on style over minor advantages on other areas. I still rank Federer over Djokovic and Nadal, for example.

Tennis is not weightlifting, it is a skill sport, and it is supposed to be aesthetically pleasing. Djokovic and Sinner are consistent and very skilled players, but Federer and Alcaraz are on a completely different tier. I am not saying that Sinner and Djokovic are equals, or that Alcaraz and Federer are equals either.

Djokovic has the numbers advantage over Federer, but Federer overall is a greater player (and I feel his competition was stronger overall too), so for me Fed is greater.

As far as Alcaraz, not only is he a much more talented player than Sinner (who does a few things exceptionally well, but lacks the variety and inventiveness in his game that Alcaraz has), but also has double the amount of slams, slams on all surfaces, Channel Slam, has actually defeated Sinner en route to two of his slams (whereas Sinner's slam runs have been against underwhelming competition), etc. And he is almost 2 years younger. Maybe Sinner will pull ahead at some point, but I don't see how anyone can claim he is superior in any way at this point. Alcaraz is on a different level. What is scary is that Sinner has been pretty dominant on HC, and yet you could make an argument that Alcaraz's season is more impressive (at least regarding slams).

Stylistically Alcaraz will always be ahead of Sinner, though. They are completely different players. Not that Sinner isn't skilled, but his approach to tennis is not the same. Alcaraz is already legendary at 21, and I can't think of many players you can claim the same about.
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I like your explanation. And there's no right or wrong answer. It's good that we can have opposite view points, yet exchange our opinions cordially. And with all of that being said, Federer is by far my favorite player this century and my second favorite player of all time(trailing only McEnroe). So I like to see people rank Federer at the top. I just can't quite do it.

Anyway, welcome to TTW. You are a good addition!
 
Net Beast said:
Thank you for going into some detail on this. I think we have completely opposite view points. I put a lot of importance on style (all things being approximately equal). What I mean is that among great players, I will put more importance on style over minor advantages on other areas. I still rank Federer over Djokovic and Nadal, for example.

Tennis is not weightlifting, it is a skill sport, and it is supposed to be aesthetically pleasing. Djokovic and Sinner are consistent and very skilled players, but Federer and Alcaraz are on a completely different tier. I am not saying that Sinner and Djokovic are equals, or that Alcaraz and Federer are equals either.

Djokovic has the numbers advantage over Federer, but Federer overall is a greater player (and I feel his competition was stronger overall too), so for me Fed is greater.

As far as Alcaraz, not only is he a much more talented player than Sinner (who does a few things exceptionally well, but lacks the variety and inventiveness in his game that Alcaraz has), but also has double the amount of slams, slams on all surfaces, Channel Slam, has actually defeated Sinner en route to two of his slams (whereas Sinner's slam runs have been against underwhelming competition), etc. And he is almost 2 years younger. Maybe Sinner will pull ahead at some point, but I don't see how anyone can claim he is superior in any way at this point. Alcaraz is on a different level. What is scary is that Sinner has been pretty dominant on HC, and yet you could make an argument that Alcaraz's season is more impressive (at least regarding slams).

Stylistically Alcaraz will always be ahead of Sinner, though. They are completely different players. Not that Sinner isn't skilled, but his approach to tennis is not the same. Alcaraz is already legendary at 21, and I can't think of many players you can claim the same about.
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Tennis is skill sport, not asthetic sport.

The day you get more pts for single hander, that would be the day I would stop watching it. The greater is the better. No other way around. Numbers
 
Pheasant said:
I like your explanation. And there's no right or wrong answer. It's good that we can have opposite view points, yet exchange our opinions cordially. And with all of that being said, Federer is by far my favorite player this century and my second favorite player of all time(trailing only McEnroe). So I like to see people rank Federer at the top. I just can't quite do it.

Anyway, welcome to TTW. You are a good addition!
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Thank you, likewise! It is good that you can rationalize and be a fan of Federer, while recognizing Djokovic is superior. It takes an actual "neutral fan" if there is such a thing to be able to do that.

Yes, Djokovic is unmatched in accomplishments. But there is more to tennis than that. Fed could lift people off their seats consistently like no other, though Alcaraz is getting there. There is of course outlier matches, memorable contents, from different players when the stars align just right. AO SF with Verdasco and Nadal comes to mind among others. But Fed was a walking highlight reel, and I could care less about a 4 slam difference honestly.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Tennis is skill sport, not asthetic sport.

The day you get more pts for single hander, that would be the day I would stop watching it. The greater is the better. No other way around. Numbers
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Yes and no. It is really a matter of opinion, because saying who is "greater" is subjective. I acknowledge Djokovic as the most accomplished player ever, there is no doubt. And he is incredibly skilled, because you can't do what he did without skill.

Players make choices about how to shape their game, what approach they take to it. Djokovic and Sinner are efficient like machines, while not altogether devoid of talent. But they focus more on efficiency than on artistry. Federer and Alcaraz are on the opposite camp. Nadal, much like Djokovic, was a high percentage player, but he had flashes of artistry (and actually think he could have been a better player overall without Toni in his box for so long).

There is no point arguing about this, but exchanging information and points of view is fine.

The consistency that Djokovic showed for so many years and that Sinner is hinting at already in itself requires a lot of skill, of course. But I guess what I am talking about is "artistry". That might be the better term.
 
Net Beast said:
Yes and no. It is really a matter of opinion, because saying who is "greater" is subjective. I acknowledge Djokovic as the most accomplished player ever, there is no doubt. And he is incredibly skilled, because you can't do what he did without skill.

Players make choices about how to shape their game, what approach they take to it. Djokovic and Sinner are efficient like machines, while not altogether devoid of talent. But they focus more on efficiency than on artistry. Federer and Alcaraz are on the opposite camp. Nadal, much like Djokovic, was a high percentage player, but he had flashes of artistry (and actually think he could have been a better player overall without Toni in his box for so long).

There is no point arguing about this, but exchanging information and points of view is fine.

The consistency that Djokovic showed for so many years and that Sinner is hinting at already in itself requires a lot of skill, of course. But I guess what I am talking about is "artistry". That might be the better term.
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No

Tennis is sport and same rules are for all. You can like Fed more but you can no longer say he is better than Nole.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
No

Tennis is sport and same rules are for all. You can like Fed more but you can no longer say he is better than Nole.
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I never said Fed was better, I just said he was greater. Greatness takes into account other intangibles.

I honestly mean no disrespect to Djokovic, he has the best resume in the history of tennis. The thing about numbers is that you can't argue about them, so nobody can take that away from Nole. But for me, Fed is greater. That is a subjective appreciation you can disagree with, but it is my point of view.
 
And same thing will be true if Sinner outshines Alcaraz. He has not yet, but they are at start of their career.

You say Raz has double the slams like they are well established players. Its just 2 and 4 slams. These guys can easily go double digits so this is tip of the iceberg.

Sinner is not less skilled, he is the number 1 not raz because he is more skilled. Better serve, better +1 win %, better backhand. What you like is aggression but that is not proportional to skill. Nadal is far less aggressive than Tsonga but he is more skilled.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
And same thing will be true if Sinner outshines Alcaraz. He has not yet, but they are at start of their career.

You say Raz has double the slams like they are well established players. Its just 2 and 4 slams. These guys can easily go double digits so this is tip of the iceberg.

Sinner is not less skilled, he is the number 1 not raz because he is more skilled. Better serve, better +1 win %, better backhand. What you like is aggression but that is not proportional to skill. Nadal is far less aggressive than Tsonga but he is more skilled.
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Skill and artistry are not the same thing. I already mentioned that maybe "artistry" would be a better term.

What Sinner does is have a more limited, less risky (and less flashy) game that he can deliver consistently. Because he does a few things better than anyone, he can dominate the tour, even if his game is not as attractive as Alcaraz's.

Now, consider the fact that Alcaraz plays a more attractive game than Sinner, which is inherently riskier, and which is less consistent. Despite that, Alcaraz is 2-0 against Sinner this year (one of the most dominant seasons from any player in the Open Era). All these things mean something.
 
Net Beast said:
Skill and artistry are not the same thing. I already mentioned that maybe "artistry" would be a better term.

What Sinner does is have a more limited, less risky (and less flashy) game that he can deliver consistently. Because he does a few things better than anyone, he can dominate the tour, even if his game is not as attractive as Alcaraz's.

Now, consider the fact that Alcaraz plays a more attractive game than Sinner, which is inherently riskier, and which is less consistent. Despite that, Alcaraz is 2-0 against Sinner this year (one of the most dominant seasons from any player in the Open Era). All these things mean something.
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Attractiveness has nothing to do with this.

If Raz is 2-0 its good but he played on his FORTRESS slow courts. Sinner has already beaten the Wimbledon champ on grass. He will be mostly cleaning up the schedule on fast courts restricting Raz to slower ones.

Just like Djokovic did to Nadal.

H2H means nothing without context. Trophy cabinet does.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Attractiveness has nothing to do with this.

If Raz is 2-0 its good but he played on his FORTRESS slow courts. Sinner has already beaten the Wimbledon champ on grass. He will be mostly cleaning up the schedule on fast courts restricting Raz to slower ones.

Just like Djokovic did to Nadal.

H2H means nothing without context. Trophy cabinet does.
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I am not sure I agree with this, though. Alcaraz is only 21 and has already improved his serve a lot. What makes you think that he is a "slow court" player? Alcaraz has already beaten Sinner on fast HC. Yes, this was three years ago, but Alcaraz is still 21, his game will develop, as will Sinner's.

 
Net Beast said:
I am not sure I agree with this, though. Alcaraz is only 21 and has already improved his serve a lot. What makes you think that he is a "slow court" player? Alcaraz has already beaten Sinner on fast HC. Yes, this was three years ago, but Alcaraz is still 21, his game will develop, as will Sinner's.

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His titles.

8 titles on clay - easily winning RG after arm injury
5 titles on hard
3 on grass.

He is all court player but his biggest moments have all come on slower courts.
 
Aabye5 said:
But a first major title is a huge moment and he won his on hard court, same as Sinner.
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Yes and its tip of the iceberg. He has played 3 more hard slams and didn't reach final of 1 yet. By next RG, he probably will have more clay slams than hard. Despite hard being 2X
 
Net Beast said:
Skill and artistry are not the same thing. I already mentioned that maybe "artistry" would be a better term.

What Sinner does is have a more limited, less risky (and less flashy) game that he can deliver consistently. Because he does a few things better than anyone, he can dominate the tour, even if his game is not as attractive as Alcaraz's.

Now, consider the fact that Alcaraz plays a more attractive game than Sinner, which is inherently riskier, and which is less consistent. Despite that, Alcaraz is 2-0 against Sinner this year (one of the most dominant seasons from any player in the Open Era). All these things mean something.
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Heh, heh, like your comments, but disagree your premise, if I understand it correctly. Artistry is the execution of skill with panache, creativity, flair, beauty etc. that is beyond mere technical precision. Therefore, it is necessary to be skillful when depicting artistry. For example, Federer's genius involved his superb skills and sublime artistry. Skill and artistry, in unison.
To be successful over time, ( health / fitness being a given) it is self evident that consistency/commitment in deploying the necessary skills / playing to high standard, are key.

It's great that Carlitos / Jannik are such different players with such ifferent games.
 
Tallawah Tennis said:
Heh, heh, like your comments, but disagree your premise, if I understand it correctly. Artistry is the execution of skill with panache, creativity, flair, beauty etc. that is beyond mere technical precision. Therefore, it is necessary to be skillful when depicting artistry. For example, Federer's genius involved his superb skills and sublime artistry. Skill and artistry, in unison.
To be successful over time, ( health / fitness being a given) it is self evident that consistency/commitment in deploying the necessary skills / playing to high standard, are key.

It's great that Carlitos / Jannik are such different players with such ifferent games.
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But my point is that it is easier for a player to be consistent when he limits his game within certain parameters and avoids pushing the boundaries for the sake of being creative. Creativity requires a riskier approach, and a lower margin of error. This is an additional reason why Federer's dominance in the first part of his career is so impressive. It is obvious Sinner is a more pragmatic player than Alcaraz at this point, more machine-like. I have no idea how Alcaraz's game will evolve, but I hope he avoids being more conservative for the sake of being more consistent. I will take Alcaraz as is right now, even if a different, tamer version of him could achieve more in terms of results.
 
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