Alcaraz to Djokovic is Djokovic to Federer at WB

FRV4 said:
IMO it was after the failed cygs year that it became concrete djokovic was the best for most fans. In fact I gave the edge to Nadal momentarily after the loss to Medvedev until I was corrected. But I think that’s when the moment was. As a Fed fan, 2019 seemed like it was gonna give Nadal the chance to catch Fed and obviously improved Djokovic’s chances as well, but I thought Nadal was gonna end up the GOAT. I was devastated when Fed lost but now I’m kinda glad it went the way it did cuz I like Djokovic more than Nadal as a tennis player.
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For clarity, I meant specifically on grass in the case of Djo fans. Most crowned him better than Fed after the W 2019 final, some after the 2015 final.
 
mike danny said:
Alcaraz could very well still lose it
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How ? Djokovic has beaten any top 10 players this year? Is a year older? No titles this year? Was in way better form last year and won 3 slams, this year all his stats are down. The final better not be a dud.
 
GabeT said:
If Carlitos wants to be GOAT the path is simple. Today he needs another 22 slams. And that’s just the first step. He also needs many more YE1, weeks at #1, Masters and WTFs
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Show me the official ITF or ATP manual that says so.

In my opinion , you should have CYGS to be a GOAT
 
FlyingSaucer said:
For clarity, I meant specifically on grass in the case of Djo fans. Most crowned him better than Fed after the W 2019 final, some after the 2015 final.
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That is because he had already beaten a good version of Fed twice in the Wimbledon final before that. It’s wrong though. Fed reached a higher peak on grass. He took out Djokovic in 2012 and played him close at 33 and 34 in 2014 and 2015. That’s why I don’t think it’ll be possible to tell if Alcaraz or Djokovic is better due to the even greater age difference. Hard enough deciding between Djokovic and Fed. It’s Fed though.
 
Indigo said:
This is not another goat thread just putting things in perspective.

It is very likely that we'll have another final of WB between Carlos Alcaraz, defending champion and Novak Djokovic. And don't tell me that Novak has a chance. Alcaraz is simply in better form and physically stronger player. Novak couldn't beat him last year when he was fine, but this year his mid season injury crippled him and he is with zero tournaments in 2024. So it's not very encouraging for him.

What I actually wanted to say is that with two wins in finals over Djokovic at WB, and maybe some more if Novak continues his career in 2025 and onwards, we are close to situation that is frequently quoted when Novak defeated Federer three times in the finals of WB. That is one of the key things when discussing goathood. People say no way Roger is goat because he lost to Novak three times in finals of WB.

Could this situation where Alcaraz has several wins in the finals of the most prestigious tournament over Djokovic be a decisive in goat discussions one day when Alcaraz gets close to achievements of the Big 3? People will often compare as people usually do and say overall h2h and WB finals h2h is in Alcaraz's favour so no way Novak can be considered co-goat with Nadal and Roger. We now have Alcaraz as co-goat too or even solo goat.

Could we claim one day that Alcaraz is goat because he was dominant head to head to Novak at WB or simply this is irrelevant because of big age difference?
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Didn't realize Federer was 16 years older then Djokovic.

And no Federer isn't considered a co-goat. Nice try
 
FRV4 said:
That is because he had already beaten a good version of Fed twice in the Wimbledon final before that. It’s wrong though. Fed reached a higher peak on grass. He took out Djokovic in 2012 and played him close at 33 and 34 in 2014 and 2015. That’s why I don’t think it’ll be possible to tell if Alcaraz or Djokovic is better due to the even greater age difference. Hard enough deciding between Djokovic and Fed. It’s Fed though.
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I don't think many here think Alcaraz of last or this year would beat/have beaten 2014 or 2015 Djo, though some of them might start arguing Alcaraz is better than Federer on grass if Alcaraz wins on Sunday. All fun and all games.
 
FlyingSaucer said:
I don't think many here think Alcaraz of last or this year would beat/have beaten 2014 or 2015 Djo, though some of them might start arguing Alcaraz is better than Federer on grass if Alcaraz wins on Sunday. All fun and all games.
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Thats the thing if Carlos wins on Sunday hes clearly better than Federer age for age on Wimbledon. Probably ties Nadal and Murray at Wimbledon in the process at 2/2/2.
 
RS said:
Get ready to defend Fed in 2 days time cuz you know it's coming back
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me having to defend Federer, then defend Kane, then after all that go and attack Messi on Sunday
GLYEzn-WwAEL1Ps.jpg
 
xFedal said:
Are you referring to the slowing down of grass which first occurred in 2001? Yes previously the best players would just hit way too many aces, it became boring and Tennis can't allow that.
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My point is Ancic and other guys that could play grass were constantly in the draw and those guys do not exist these days. Can not compare those eras.
 
Lleytonstation said:
My point is Ancic and other guys that could play grass were constantly in the draw and those guys do not exist these days. Can not compare those eras.
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Ancic and them guys were difficult to deal with early in ones career like Fedole found out. Once the Goats got going there was hardly any early round loses, except Stakhovsky/Querry.
 
FRV4 said:
Nah. Djokovic shouldn’t even be playing anymore. Alcaraz currently would stand no chance against the prime big3. He’ll be at his best in 5 years or so. So the timelines just don’t work together. It is kinda like the nfl where you enter the league at 22 everyone calls you GOAT and then you get whooped by the real GOAT in his 40s in the Super Bowl a few years later. Yet ppl are still giving Mahomes the chance to be GOAT if he continues dominating. So Alcaraz is in a slightly better position than Mahomes seeing that Alcaraz has already beat Djokovic in a slam final. Djokovic 20 something majors will prob be slightly less in equivalence to Brady’s 7 rings, but Djokovic faced two other GOATs for most of his career. Anyways, yeah this match doesn’t matter much. What matters is how well Alcaraz dominates in the future.
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The big 3 are all better than Brady, because tennis is a sport played by millions worldwide. The NFL is only played to any great level in America, it's a niche sport at best in the rest of the world
 
xFedal said:
My friend ur boy about to go through what Fed went through in 14-15 . Carlos might be the greatest ever and it might be a matter of time before he confirms it by breaking the most important records.
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Carlos won’t be the greatest ever, no matter how he deals with Novak in their remaining matches. Unless they give him a step stool to stand on for every serve, that is.
 
xFedal said:
So you don't think he can get the most slams and weeks at no.1?
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Heavy doubt. If that does happen it’ll probably be through a kind of consistency-botting/vulturing that puts what Djokodal did from ‘17-onward to shame. Don’t mean to be so negative, Carlos is great for the game and may have a level-jump or two left in him…but he’s no GOAT.
 
TheFifthSet said:
Heavy doubt. If that does happen it’ll probably be through a kind of consistency-botting/vulturing that puts what Djokodal did from ‘17-onward to shame. Don’t mean to be so negative, Carlos is great for the game and may have a level-jump or two left in him…but he’s no GOAT.
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I think Alcaraz could be in the debate in the future but it's a long way to go. Winning in 2 days won't be enough though OFC.
 
You can't compare them. Djokovic is more or less perfect. Alcaraz is okay, but even Medvedev is more my thing.
Who would you rather go on holiday with? With Alcaraz? Not really. So all the supporting, real-life qualities are crystal clear in favour of Novak.
 
Racquet_smash said:
Djokovic arguably didn't even play as well as Fed did in 2019 at 38... when Djoko was 32.

He certainly hasn't played better since.
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sorry, hate to burst your bubble. But Novak's 2018-2024 period is the same as Fed's 2012-2018. And in that period fed lost 5 times, twice to an ATG and the other 3 to "mugs". Novak so far has lost only once and to an ATG
 
GabeT said:
sorry, hate to burst your bubble. But Novak's 2018-2024 period is the same as Fed's 2012-2018. And in that period fed lost to 3 "mugs". Novak so far has lost only once and to an ATG
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Federer's only really bad loss was Anderson in 2018. 2013 was a slump year so it's understandable. True, Djokovic doesn't really have any really bad loss, so you could say he's slightly more consistent.

But as far as playing level goes, how can you seriously argue old Nole is better than old Fed at Wimbledon? Fed in 2012 defeated Djokovic himself in his prime in only 4 sets and so did against prime Murray. This is one of the most impressive wins out of all the slams won by the big 3. In 2014-15 he only narrowly lost to prime Djokovic, in 2017 he won the tournament without dropping a single set, in 2019 he was 1 point away from winning against a much younger Djokovic at 38 years of age.

Djokovic in 2018 barely defeated Nadal, in in 2021 he beat basically nobody, in 2022 he dropped 6 sets against a fairly easy draw. And again i really don't think he hasn't played at the same level Fed did in 2019 in years.
 
Racquet_smash said:
Federer's only really bad loss was Anderson in 2018. 2013 was a slump year so it's understandable. True, Djokovic doesn't really have any really bad loss, so you could say he's slightly more consistent.

But as far as playing level goes, how can you seriously argue old Nole is better than old Fed at Wimbledon? Fed in 2012 defeated Djokovic himself in his prime in only 4 sets and so did against prime Murray. This is one of the most impressive wins out of all the slams won by the big 3. In 2014-15 he only narrowly lost to prime Djokovic, in 2017 he won the tournament without dropping a single set, in 2019 he was 1 point away from winning against a much younger Djokovic at 38 years of age.

Djokovic in 2018 barely defeated Nadal, in in 2021 he beat basically nobody, in 2022 he dropped 6 sets against a fairly easy draw. And again i really don't think he hasn't played at the same level Fed did in 2019 in years.
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there is no "barely won" or "barely lost". There is winning and there is losing.


fed lost 3 times in the same comparable period to non ATGs (widely known as mugs in TTW). Stakhovsky, Raonic, and Anderson. If he had a slump year at the same age Novak was winning slams you are simply saying with other words that Novak was the better player (when comparing by age). Which is my point.
 
GabeT said:
there is no "barely won" or "barely lost". There is winning and there is losing.


fed lost 3 times in the same comparable period to non ATGs (widely known as mugs in TTW). Stakhovsky, Raonic, and Anderson. If he had a slump year at the same age Novak was winning slams you are simply saying with other words that Novak was the better player (when comparing by age). Which is my point.
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So Djokovic played better than old Federer basically only the time he had his slump season, but he was worse every other year when Federer was in good form, and yet old Djokovic is better than old Federer at Wimbledon?

Is this your logic?
 
Highly doubt Fed pulls an Anderson in the 2024 draw unless he gets injured. Who’s there to hurt him until Alcaraz?
 
Third Serve said:
Ok never mind, not objective then. Carry on.
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I can't imagine anything more "objective" than actual results. That Novak has 7 W and fed 8 is 100% objective. That you or others may think Fed had a higher peak or was more deserving of winning more is when we enter the subjective realm
 
RS said:
I think Alcaraz could be in the debate in the future but it's a long way to go. Winning in 2 days won't be enough though OFC.
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I think the only way he pries himself in is by making a 2010-to-2011 Djokovic transformation (or, to be fairer, a 2008-to-2011 Djokovic transformation). It’s just hard to see which attributes he can feasibly improve significantly enough to make that happen.

I would hazard that his raw athleticism (something he relies on a lot) is already near its peak, his defensive return is near its peak (most studies I’ve read show that reaction time peaks in a person’s early 20’s) and…well, he’s 5’11 barefoot. He’s got a sturdy second serve, good accuracy and a live arm that can rocket serves into the high 130’s, so it’s not like he’s failing to make good with the tools he does have. But the height prevents him from generating easy angles with margin.
 
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